Volume 4 questions

[Flightpath07]

Below find my link to unanswered questions left at the end of Alpha Flight Volume 4.

If anybody has any answers, any questions to add to the list, or just wants to discuss, feel free to pile on!


http://canadas-own-the-flight.blogspot.ca/2012/05/questions.html

[Legerd]

- Are Purple Woman and Citadel imprisoned as terrorists?


Don't know, but would assume the brainwashing defence might give them a pass.

- How does Citadel go to the bathroom?


Maybe there's one built into the suit?

- Who encased Citadel in that suit, and who is he?


Weapon Plus did according to the Marvel Database (http://marvel.wikia.com/Citadel_%28Earth-616%29).

- Does anyone know that Heather killed those people (her relatives)? Is she wanted for murder?


I assume the deaths of her relatives can't be hidden, but again the brainwashing defence will probably be invoked.

- Where did Heather and Claire go?


Don't know, maybe they're on a cross-Canada trek of self-discovery? Or, being it's Marvel, they are on a cross-America trek to find out why it's the greatest country in the whole universe. :p

- Why exactly is Sasquatch so stupid? Is it really from post-concussion syndrome?


Maybe we'll get some info in the Red Hulk story since the previews show him misbehaving.

- Where was Talisman during all of this?


Washing her hair?

- Did Alpha Flight get in trouble for robbing that bank? Did the people easily forgive them? Are they uneasy heroes now to the people of Canada, who not long ago hated them?


I'm sure all is forgiven considering the team saved the country (and the world) from the Master, and the money issues will probably be settled out of court considering they could sue the government for attacking and locking them up without just cause.

- How does Puck know Taskmaster?


From what they said in the story, the go way back to the days when Judd was a spy.

- After all the stuff (known and unknown) that Puck has gone through in his life, what exactly caused him to go all squirrely in hell?


Probably because it's Hell, the place of eternal suffering and torment. I don't think anything in life prepares you for that.

- How did Puck get out of hell?


After Wolverine killed whatever big bad was in charge there, he left Puck in command. Since Judd was in charge I'm assuming he could choose to leave if he wanted to. He did say he gave it all up to save the team.

- Was Heather cured of the Master’s influence, or not? Does she have four toes, or five?


This I can tell you for certain. Straight from FVL's mouth to my twitter account: Heather is not cured, and she still has four toes.

- Was Prime Minister Cody killed?


Unless he had a secret teleportation device I think he got fried when the Master's ship took off and leveled Parliament.

- Wasn’t Cody brain-dead earlier on in Alpha Flight?

Yes, but he got better. I'm guessing that the Master fixed him up using his Unity procedure so he could be his pawn in this scheme.

[Flightpath07]

- Are Purple Woman and Citadel imprisoned as terrorists?


Don't know, but would assume the brainwashing defence might give them a pass.

Hm. But they were brainwashed 'after' they attacked the government (and the power station, i think? really have to look that up again...), so I wonder about that one. Once AF won and saved the day, wouldn't Citadel and Purple Girl have been locked up and incarcerated with the rest of Alpha Strike? Very...confusing...


- How does Citadel go to the bathroom?


Maybe there's one built into the suit?

There's some poor sewage truck owner with the unenviable task of pumping it out every month or two, then? This actually reminds me of some of the questions regarding Radius in Volume 2.


- Who encased Citadel in that suit, and who is he?


Weapon Plus did according to the Marvel Database (http://marvel.wikia.com/Citadel_%28Earth-616%29).

-

Yes, but it is also quite clear that he died. I was going, by that, on the assumption that this is a new Citadel. Unless the old one could cure himself from death?


Does anyone know that Heather killed those people (her relatives)? Is she wanted for murder?


I assume the deaths of her relatives can't be hidden, but again the brainwashing defence will probably be invoked.

Maybe. But she was brainwashed into loving her child even more than before (is that possible?), and wanting to help Unity take over Canada. Unles sit can be proven she was given a subliminal message from The Master to kill her family, I don't know how she coudl still be 'unresponsible' for their deaths. I know that if i gte behind the wheel of a motor vehicle while drunk and kill somebody with my car, I'm still reponsible. Seems like Heather could have made a lot of other choices at that critical moment.


- Where did Heather and Claire go?


Don't know, maybe they're on a cross-Canada trek of self-discovery? Or, being it's Marvel, they are on a cross-America trek to find out why it's the greatest country in the whole universe. :p

- Why exactly is Sasquatch so stupid? Is it really from post-concussion syndrome?


Maybe we'll get some info in the Red Hulk story since the previews show him misbehaving.

- Where was Talisman during all of this?


Washing her hair?

Oh, definitely. In a pool in a glade in the forest, underneath a waterfall. With some deer and bunnies watching.




- Did Alpha Flight get in trouble for robbing that bank? Did the people easily forgive them? Are they uneasy heroes now to the people of Canada, who not long ago hated them?


I'm sure all is forgiven considering the team saved the country (and the world) from the Master, and the money issues will probably be settled out of court considering they could sue the government for attacking and locking them up without just cause.

- How does Puck know Taskmaster?


From what they said in the story, the go way back to the days when Judd was a spy.

- After all the stuff (known and unknown) that Puck has gone through in his life, what exactly caused him to go all squirrely in hell?


Probably because it's Hell, the place of eternal suffering and torment. I don't think anything in life prepares you for that.

Funny, Wolverine didn't seem too affected by it.


- How did Puck get out of hell?


After Wolverine killed whatever big bad was in charge there, he left Puck in command. Since Judd was in charge I'm assuming he could choose to leave if he wanted to. He did say he gave it all up to save the team.

- Was Heather cured of the Master’s influence, or not? Does she have four toes, or five?


This I can tell you for certain. Straight from FVL's mouth to my twitter account: Heather is not cured, and she still has four toes.

Ah, excellent. Thanking you!


- Was Prime Minister Cody killed?


Unless he had a secret teleportation device I think he got fried when the Master's ship took off and leveled Parliament.

Maybe I'm too picky, but i would have liked to see one panel showing a state funeral for him, then. It's all about wrapping up loose ends, for me.


- Wasn’t Cody brain-dead earlier on in Alpha Flight?

Yes, but he got better. I'm guessing that the Master fixed him up using his Unity procedure so he could be his pawn in this scheme.

And nobody noticed? Geez...

[Phil]

- Who encased Citadel in that suit, and who is he?

See Wolverine First Class #5

(http://alphaflight.net/content.php?425-Review-Wolverine-First-Class-5)- Does anyone know that Heather killed those people (her relatives)? Is she wanted for murder?

Just the Dept. H guards who were with her at the time.

- Where was Talisman during all of this?

In Omega Flight she satated she wanted nothing to do with super-heroing and wanted to concentrate on her tribe, so I guess the same applies.

- After all the stuff (known and unknown) that Puck has gone through in his life, what exactly caused him to go all squirrely in hell?

Aaron said in interviews it was because of Raazer, but that was never in print so not canon.

- Was Heather cured of the Master’s influence, or not? Does she have four toes, or five?

This I can tell you for certain. Straight from FVL's mouth to my twitter account: Heather is not cured, and she still has four toes.

Again, this was never in print, so not canon. Future writers/handbook entries (http://alphaflight.net/showthread.php?4092-Official-Handbook-Updates&p=86183&viewfull=1#post86183) may contradict this.

- Was Prime Minister Cody killed?

Presumed as, but again it's comics so unless we see it, it's not canon.

- Wasn’t Cody brain-dead earlier on in Alpha Flight?

Freg hinted in interviews that he was brought back to health by Hercules at the end of Chaos War, along with Citadel, but again, not canon.

So basically; lots of wriggle room :D

[Phil]

Funny, Wolverine didn't seem too affected by it.

Actually, he was really messed up by it when he returned. See Wolverine (2010) #6-8.

[Flightpath07]

Actually, he was really messed up by it when he returned. See Wolverine (2010) #6-8.

Alright, i stand (well, sit) corrected on that one.

[Flightpath07]

Actually, he was really messed up by it when he returned. See Wolverine (2010) #6-8.

Alright, i stand (well, sit) corrected on that one.

[Le Messor]

- Did Alpha Flight get in trouble for robbing that bank? Did the people easily forgive them? Are they uneasy heroes now to the people of Canada, who not long ago hated them?
I'm sure all is forgiven considering the team saved the country (and the world) from the Master, and the money issues will probably be settled out of court considering they could sue the government for attacking and locking them up without just cause.

Robbing a bank causes more problems than just money, though; trauma for the peole involved being the big one.


- How does Puck know Taskmaster?
From what they said in the story, the go way back to the days when Judd was a spy.

He's the kind of guy who (like Wolvie) knows everybody.


- After all the stuff (known and unknown) that Puck has gone through in his life, what exactly caused him to go all squirrely in hell?
Probably because it's Hell, the place of eternal suffering and torment. I don't think anything in life prepares you for that.

You don't know my life!


- How did Puck get out of hell?

Get out of Hell free card?


Alright, i stand (well, sit) corrected on that one.

Yes, I too find it very hard to type while standing.

- Le Messor
"If you look just close enough, you can see anything you want."

[Garry/Al-Fan]

If it is public knowledge that "Heather" is "Vindicator", will that put her other relatives (mother, father, siblings) in danger, not just from possible supervillians but from citizens who might not take kindly to her involvement in the takeover of the Canadian goverment?

[Phil]

That's a really good point and adds strength to Heather running away at the end of Vol.4

[Flightpath07]

Yeah, I wonder what Heather's parents are up to, and why they didn't get custody of Claire? I see now that the reason for not giving them custody was not wanting Heather to kill her parents.

[Le Messor]

Maybe they didn't want custody, being old? Or, the cousins particularly did; they wanted kids but couldn't have their own?

I don't see why ordinary Canadians would take it out on her family; first, there aren't many people who weren't involved and second, I'm not sure the events had all that big an effect on ordinary people anyway.

- Le Messor
"If we quit voting, will they all go away?"

[Flightpath07]

I'm not sure the events had all that big an effect on ordinary people anyway.


I think you are forgetting all the people forcefully rounded up and sent to internment camps. Plus, all the people who ended up with only 8 toes.

All the people killed in the nation's capital when the Master's ship rose out of the ground. The death of the Prime Minister. Yet another round of elections.

Actually, i doubt that there would have been ANYBODY in Canada not affected by this storyline!

[Le Messor]

I think you are forgetting all the people forcefully rounded up and sent to internment camps...

I am, a little bit, but:

Almost all of it was confined to politicians and reporters in Ottawa.
I think you'd be suprised how little of that might've trickled down to the ordniary people on the street in Winnipeg...

- Le Messor
"The two most beautiful words in English are: "Checque Enclosed"."
~ Dorothy Parker

[Flightpath07]

There are NO ordinary people in Winnipeg; they have all been replaced by the black flies.

[Le Messor]

My bad. Must've been after the black oil outbreak in the mid 90's.

[Legerd]

I think you are forgetting all the people forcefully rounded up and sent to internment camps. Plus, all the people who ended up with only 8 toes.

All the people killed in the nation's capital when the Master's ship rose out of the ground. The death of the Prime Minister. Yet another round of elections.

Actually, i doubt that there would have been ANYBODY in Canada not affected by this storyline!

True, but if Marvel U Canadians are like the peoples of any other Marvel U nation then they'll be voting for the Master come the next election. :p

[Le Messor]

True, but if Marvel U Canadians are like the peoples of any other Marvel U nation then they'll be voting for the Master come the next election. :p

If the competition's anything like the pollies in the real world, they're still better off with him.

- Le Messor
"The driver is safer when the road is dry. The road is safer when the driver is dry."
~ W.G.P.

[Flightpath07]

True, but if Marvel U Canadians are like the peoples of any other Marvel U nation then they'll be voting for the Master come the next election. :p

All those with four toes per foot get into the Master Party for free!

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I agree with Flightpath07: there are few people who wouldn't be affected by the actions of The Master's plan. The events cannot plausibly be swept under the rug (confined to a few politicians and reporters), the destruction of Parliment Hill itself would have been news of a global nature.

As much as I dislike disagreeing with Le Messor, it doesn't seem like we read the same series. The Master should do things in a big way, and he did.

[Flightpath07]

I agree with Flightpath07

Aw, geez, I'm tearin' up!

"I'm a little verklempt. Talk amongst yourselves."

[Le Messor]

... I dislike disagreeing with Le Messor...

Thanks! But, why? It's not like I'm always right or anything.

- LM
"Wherever I climb I am followed by a dog called 'Ego'."
~ Friedrich Nietzsche

[Jason Eberly]

I agree with Flightpath07: there are few people who wouldn't be affected by the actions of The Master's plan. The events cannot plausibly be swept under the rug (confined to a few politicians and reporters), the destruction of Parliment Hill itself would have been news of a global nature.

Don't make the mistake of putting our real world sensibilities upon the comic book world. This is a world which has dealt with the destruction of the World Trade Center in the early issues of X-Force a good decade before it happened in our world with nary a ripple across the Marvel Earth. Alien invasions, countless landmarks destroyed and rebuilt, entire nations literally wiped off the map, and yet life continues on day-to-day.

[Flightpath07]

Don't make the mistake of putting our real world sensibilities upon the comic book world.

Seriously though, if we DON'T do that, then all we have is a story that means little to us and that we cannot emotionally connect with. And if that is all these stories become, if we don't live them out in our minds and talk about them in great and minute detail, then what use is this site, or any site about any comics books at all?! In fact, i think that we HAVE TO put our real-world sensibilities into our discussions of comic books, lest all we have are conversations about nothing at all. If we cannot compare them to real life, then what are we to compare them to? For real life, after all, is all we know.

[Phil]

Let's not forget that this is the MU where it's citizens are invaded by aliens and tyrants and villains on a daily basis and have their cities and homes destroyed every other day ;)

[Le Messor]

Seriously though, if we DON'T do that, then all we have is a story that means little to us and that we cannot emotionally connect with...

Yeah, I agree with FP here.
(As long as we don't take it too far; trying to be too 'ultra-realistic' and trying to be taken seriously (by who, I don't know) are two of the reasons I'm finding it really hard to find enjoyable comics these days.)


Let's not forget that this is the MU where it's citizens are invaded by aliens and tyrants and villains on a daily basis and have their cities and homes destroyed every other day ;)

Only in New York!

Let's all just agree that I'm wrong on this one, and move on. I haven't paid as close attention to v4 as I did to, say, Byrne's run, so my comments about it not affecting ordinary citizens that much are probably wayyyyy off-base.

- Le Messor
"If you want to drive a cryptographer crazy, send her a page of random text."
~ Mark T. Shirey

[Le Messor]

... the destruction of the World Trade Center in the early issues of X-Force...

Wait... wasn't it just heavily damaged, not destroyed?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Don't make the mistake of putting our real world sensibilities upon the comic book world. This is a world which has dealt with the destruction of the World Trade Center in the early issues of X-Force a good decade before it happened in our world with nary a ripple across the Marvel Earth. Alien invasions, countless landmarks destroyed and rebuilt, entire nations literally wiped off the map, and yet life continues on day-to-day.

I'm actually glad you stated that: I don't consider the Mantlo version legitimate (primarily because of glaring inconsistencies within the run itself i.e. the continuous reference to Snowbird as a "goddess" instead of a demi-goddess, and her desire for mortality instead of "humanity"); I'd much prefer to forget that "Heather" killed her cousins, though I'm not sure if the judge who granted them custody of Claire --- which is in (vol. 4) # 2 --- could. Unless comic folks can just forget about the stormtrooper thugs taking over police precincts and people being rounded up and put in internment camps and the "death" of their Prime Minister (I assume Cody was killed, but I personally would like that character to stay around, too), I stand by what I wrote: the consequences of this were severe.

If the next creative team to handle Alpha Flight doesn't want to delve into it, that's okay with me. Comics don't have to be that "realistic." IMO

[Mokole]

Thanks! But, why? It's not like I'm always right or anything.
- LM


No, you're not Sheldon.

[Flightpath07]

No, you're not Sheldon.

Yes he is.

[Legerd]

All those with four toes per foot get into the Master Party for free!

The ones with four toes are already in his party, but with the Master there's always a cover charge.

[Flightpath07]

The ones with four toes are already in his party, but with the Master there's always a cover charge.

Yes, but on the dance floor does anybody have two left feet?

[Mokole]

No, they tend to use their own feet. No sense in using ones left by someone else.

[Le Messor]

The ones with four toes are already in his party, but with the Master there's always a cover charge.

Well, you should've been at the last party. We didn't get home 'til three.

[Jason Eberly]

Seriously though, if we DON'T do that, then all we have is a story that means little to us and that we cannot emotionally connect with. And if that is all these stories become, if we don't live them out in our minds and talk about them in great and minute detail, then what use is this site, or any site about any comics books at all?!

I agree 100% on everything to this point.


In fact, i think that we HAVE TO put our real-world sensibilities into our discussions of comic books, lest all we have are conversations about nothing at all. If we cannot compare them to real life, then what are we to compare them to? For real life, after all, is all we know.

It's fine to put real-world sensibilities into our discussions as long as you put them into the context of their world (or universe). Like I stated before, entire nations (and worlds, for that matter) of people have been wiped off their Earth with nary a ripple in the social, economic, or political landscape of the rest of the world. I can put real-world sensibilities into Star Wars, yet it has very little to do contextually with my world.

Anyway, I've decided that Cody was just a Life Model Decoy that The Master reprogrammed to serve his needs and the entirety of Parliament Hill was rebuilt by Damage Control over the weekend.

[Le Messor]

Anyway, I've decided that Cody was just a Life Model Decoy that The Master reprogrammed to serve his needs and the entirety of Parliament Hill was rebuilt by Damage Control over the weekend.

:D I like it!

- Le Messor
"If you would keep a secret from an enemy, tell it not to a friend."

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I can barely keep up with super-advanced aliens trying to conquer/enslave/dominate/destroy/repopulate Alpha Flight's "world".

Most importantly, I like reading about a character who can manipulate the magnetic fields in order to fly and move things; who is a shape-shifting demi-goddess; who can pull objects of various sizes out of a pouch and levitate; who can run and fly faster than I can comprehend; who can transform into an immensely powerful being of ambiguous origin; who is an alien created to dominate, and; who is a heroic, acrobatic former Government agent with more courage and determination than people twice his size. If I'm putting any real-world sensiblities into suspending disbelief enough to be entertained by that, I don't know what else to say. In Alpha Flight's world, the Master made a mess.

I like the "Life Model Decoy" idea for Cody, too. [(Post-Omega Flight) Brown has been a tool, too, BTW; is he a LMD?]

[Le Messor]

There's a story that, while filming the first Superman movie, Richard Donner (or was it one of the producers?) stuck up signs everywhere, with one word:
Verisimilitude.

I think that's what we need in these stories; not realism, because that's just boring, but at least the feeling that people are reacting in ways that make sense. And not self-contradictory.

- Le Messor
"If you would not be forgotten, as soon as you are dead and rotten, either write things worth reading, Or do things worth the writing."

[Flightpath07]

Vera Similitude? I think she was my biology teacher 20-some years ago! lol.


at least the feeling that people are reacting in ways that make sense. And not self-contradictory

That i can agree with. We may have to suspend disbelief in order to swallow the worlds we catapult ourselves into when we open the covers of our favourite comics, but that doesn't mean that what goes on there should contradict what has gone on before, nor should it change what has already happened without a darn good reason and a lot of thought before doing so! If you can't write your story without altering what somebody else has already written, then write something else!

[Le Messor]

If you can't write your story without altering what somebody else has already written, then write something else!

It's also a sign of laziness; I'm often reminded of the saying 'a poor craftsman blames his tools'.

- Le Messor
"If your aim in life is nothing, you can't miss."

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Vera Similitude? I think she was my biology teacher 20-some years ago! lol.



That i can agree with. We may have to suspend disbelief in order to swallow the worlds we catapult ourselves into when we open the covers of our favourite comics, but that doesn't mean that what goes on there should contradict what has gone on before, nor should it change what has already happened without a darn good reason and a lot of thought before doing so! [I couldn't agree more. G/A-F] If you can't write your story without altering what somebody else has already written, then write something else!

I resemble that last remark.

[Flightpath07]

I resemble that last remark.

Stay tuned to http://verbal-sweetness-comics.blogspot.ca/ , where everything starts at point zero. No building on anybody else's work.

[EccentricSage]

Man, I finally got some issues of the Maxi awhile back, around the time it ended, and I am disappointed. Even though it finished as originally planned, the ending seemed so rushed and full of loose ends. And Vindicator's fall from grace just to make Mac Hudson the hero and leader of Alpha Flight again leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. Are we not allowed to have strong female leaders in comics? Sorry, but Guardian sucks. He always sucked. Byrne designed him for the express purpose of being a self righteous naive fool who gets himself killed so that Heather becomes Vindicator. Screw this story arch. Well, ok, don't know if Byrne meant for Mac to be that hate-worthy, but really, we were better off without another super genius lead male who always thinks he's right about everything. My faith in Marvel's writers is not restored. Though there were some decent moments in the new book, and great art, the main plot and it's resolution just ruins it for me. Don't know if I'm going to bother getting the rest of the issues I missed.

[Flightpath07]

Man, I finally got some issues of the Maxi awhile back, around the time it ended, and I am disappointed. Even though it finished as originally planned, the ending seemed so rushed and full of loose ends. And Vindicator's fall from grace just to make Mac Hudson the hero and leader of Alpha Flight again leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. Are we not allowed to have strong female leaders in comics? Sorry, but Guardian sucks. He always sucked. Byrne designed him for the express purpose of being a self righteous naive fool who gets himself killed so that Heather becomes Vindicator. Screw this story arch. Well, ok, don't know if Byrne meant for Mac to be that hate-worthy, but really, we were better off without another super genius lead male who always thinks he's right about everything. My faith in Marvel's writers is not restored. Though there were some decent moments in the new book, and great art, the main plot and it's resolution just ruins it for me. Don't know if I'm going to bother getting the rest of the issues I missed.

Nice to have you back, ES! I see my quote is still hanging around, lol.

[EccentricSage]

What can I say, it's about the only thing that remains true in all the Marvel universe. lol I wish I'd realized the site was back, sooner. I hate marvel, but you guys are alright.

[Le Messor]

Well, ok, don't know if Byrne meant for Mac to be that hate-worthy...

Nope. He meant AF to be nothing more than a team that could go toe-to-toe with the X-Men.

- Le Messor
"If you're not very clever you should be conciliatory."
~ Benjamin Disraeli

[EccentricSage]

Nope. He meant AF to be nothing more than a team that could go toe-to-toe with the X-Men.

- Le Messor
"If you're not very clever you should be conciliatory."
~ Benjamin Disraeli

I could have sworn I remembered an interview quote where he said it was his intent to kill off Guardian from the start and create Vindicator because that would be more interesting. I can't remember the exact quote, but I liked his thinking.

[Le Messor]

I could have sworn I remembered an interview quote where he said it was his intent to kill off Guardian from the start

I think that depends on what we mean by 'the start'; I suspect you're talking Alpha Flight #1, but I'm talking Uncanny X-Men #109 (and before).


create Vindicator because that would be more interesting.

... but no, Byrne never wanted Heather in the battlesuit.
On one of the letters pages he even says that putting that costume on the female form boggles the mind.

- Le Messor
"If you're studying geology, which is all facts, as soon as you get out of school you forget it all... but philosophy, you remember just enough to screw you up for the rest of your life."
~ Steve Martin

[EccentricSage]

I think that depends on what we mean by 'the start'; I suspect you're talking Alpha Flight #1, but I'm talking Uncanny X-Men #109 (and before).



... but no, Byrne never wanted Heather in the battlesuit.
On one of the letters pages he even says that putting that costume on the female form boggles the mind.

- Le Messor
"If you're studying geology, which is all facts, as soon as you get out of school you forget it all... but philosophy, you remember just enough to screw you up for the rest of your life."
~ Steve Martin

Seriously? Now I'm just confused and disappointed. This has not been a good night for me.

No, I remember him trying to force Wolverine into leading Alpha Flight. Mac is an overbearing prick in his early incarnation, so I'm disappointed that he's Mr Perfect all of a sudden.

[Le Messor]

Well, his firstest appearance was kind of as a villain.

Sorry make you sad. :(

[Flightpath07]

I agree with ES about Guardian's "perfection". he was better when he didn't want to be leader and worried about it all the time. Better when he had more flaws. I mean, suddenly his wife and child run off, and he is all okay with it? WT...! I mean, he just goes on leading the team?!? Really?!? I think that there was too much Marvel interference in Volume 4. Just MHO, of course. But I think marvel wanted AF to be more "exciting" (in their eyes) or the last series would never have been written. Thus, Fred and Greg had to make some massive changes; turn Sasquatch stupid, turn Puck insane, make Shaman sexy, give Marrina tattoos and a punk attitude, get rid of Heather and Claire, and make Guardian into a more Captain America type hero. Although I ENJOYED Volume 4 and am thankful I got to read some AF, and think that the creative team did the best job they could with what they were told to do (again, my opinion), when i think back over it I have as many problems with it as I did with the Omega Flight mini-series. I find, in hindsight, it leaves a "distasteful" feeling in the back of my throat.

[EccentricSage]

But you don't get to hand wave an a****** moment just because the character was playing a villain role in one story, not unless there's some heavy mind control BS going on, and even then, well, look at how Wildchild fared despite having the mind control excuse on his side for Byrne's run. Guardian may have had good intentions in his heart, but how he achieved his dream was a mess, as well as how he handled it when Department H was closed down.

I agree with Flightpath. Guardian is more interesting as a flawed character. I didn't really hate him untill vol.4, I guess. lol Before he was rather tragic. Now he's one of those Perfect Leading Male types, and at the cost of Vindicator who was a stronger leader than Guardian in Vol.1.

Was there any explanation for Marina's complete change of personality? My god she's annoying now. Vol 4 is a bit too X-Tream 90's for me. I get that Sas has an injury causing forgetfulness, but that wouldn't render a person stupid.

[Le Messor]

But you don't get to hand wave an a****** moment just because the character was playing a villain role in one story, not unless there's some heavy mind control BS going on

Fair enough. I just take it as somebody doing something they don't want to for their job.


Was there any explanation for Marina's complete change of personality? My god she's annoying now. Vol 4 is a bit too X-Tream 90's for me. I get that Sas has an injury causing forgetfulness, but that wouldn't render a person stupid.

Agree, totally.

I seem to remember the writer saying at some point (contrariwise to FP's point above), that he made Marrina a punk because he didn't like the type of character she was originally.

- Le Messor
"Ignorance doesn't kill you, but it makes you sweat a lot."
~ Proverb

[Flightpath07]

(contrariwise to FP's point above)

ACK!!!! Okay, I call you on that one! There is no such word! C'mon, let's keep some seriositiness in these conversations, shall we! ;)

[EccentricSage]

Hey, I'm all for creative languosity. Words like 'bedroom' didn't even exist until Shakespeare made them up.

I took Mac's actions more as him doing what he had to do because he doesn't want the job. Mac struck me as the sort of well intentioned idealist who's so stuck on his vision that he doesn't respect the free will of others if it gets in the way of his plans. Which is interesting. Kind of like that type of boss who always talks about how you're all a team, and he appreciates you, but then never listens, but is so god damned nice about it usually that people go along with it anyhow. What I like about Byrne's Alpha Flight is that it was a story about economic disparity and the influence of it on people's behavior as much as anything. I just wish he'd gone into more exploration of the villains. I feel like the most interesting part of the story was hardly touched upon.

"I seem to remember the writer saying at some point (contrariwise to FP's point above), that he made Marrina a punk because he didn't like the type of character she was originally."

Well I just lost any respect I had for said writer. That is some bull****. If you don't like a character, don't use them, or develop them in a direction you like. You don't just suddenly write them out of character because you like it better. That's bad fan fiction tier bull****.

Marina's original personality was actually a lot like the typical 'Moe' characters in anime. There's a market for that type of character, and they're easy to write. The problem with Marvel writers is that they're obsessed with angst and don't seem to know how to write characters who are anything but ether bitter and jaded or else a lucky idealistic fool who's always right because he's Just That Good and Just. I hate that.

I don't think the writer kept his promise to be true to the core of what Alpha Flight was.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Not that I think MARVEL will do it, but it should try something it has not done, before: revise/renew the series with AF# 29A. And a little while later, if another creative team comes up with another possible time-line, restart the series with AF # 29B. This way, fans who like the Mantlo timeline can keep the Mantlo timeline; those who don't can have another time-line.

Don't know who would want to revamp the old stories, what with the possibility of tinkering with things that have already happened (origin of Lady Deathstrike and the Avengers/Alpha Flight crossover).

[Le Messor]

ACK!!!! Okay, I call you on that one! There is no such word! C'mon, let's keep some seriositiness in these conversations, shall we! :wink:

Can I help it if I like to verb words?


"I seem to remember the writer saying at some point (contrariwise to FP's point above), that he made Marrina a punk because he didn't like the type of character she was originally."

Well I just lost any respect I had for said writer... You don't just suddenly write them out of character because you like it better...
I don't think the writer kept his promise to be true to the core of what Alpha Flight was.

Yeah, I've always felt the same way.
Again, a poor craftsman blaming his tools.


Not that I think MARVEL will do it, but it should try something it has not done, before: revise/renew the series with AF# 29A. And a little while later, if another creative team comes up with another possible time-line, restart the series with AF # 29B...
Don't know who would want to revamp the old stories...

An Alpha Flight Forever? Any possibility they can get John Byrne '85 to do it?
I'd love to see that! :D

- Le Messor
"I'll do anything you say. In fact I'll even stay. But I must be going."
~ Groucho in Animal Crackers

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Me, too, Le Messor. Alpha Flight is solid at its core, and with a lot of care in storytelling and understanding of the characters, another good run is possible.

If MARVEL is still truly "the House of Ideas."

[EccentricSage]

I need to fill in the last of the holes in Byrne's run on AF and see if I can come up with something, just as a fan. :D

What a fun idea! I'd love to have seen from Byrne what Gamma and Beta flight were like BEFORE they were disbanded, for example, even if just a brief flash back during Omega Flights run as the main villains. I found them more intriguing than the heroes. I wanted to know which members of the flights new each other, who had tensions and why. I mean, the Omegans were disgruntled former employees pretty much... told they would be heros, rescued from the **** lives they had, then just thrown out on the streets because they lost funding. Yet Mac keeps his elite recruits... there's so much story to be had there!

[rplass]

I agree with EccentricSage. A Beta Flight/Gamma Flight series that takes place in the early days when Dept H was forming would be amazing. We all stared at that panel with Beta and Gamma Flight members from Alpha Flight #1 wondering who they were, and Byrne filled out those characters later... but we never got the full story about what happened before that panel!

[EccentricSage]

Don't be mad, but I thought it was a bit lazy of him. lol He tells us awesome stuff happened but we don't get to see it, we only get to see it all fall apart, and we hardly even knew many of the characters at that point. It was exciting to start the story at the Flight Program's downfall, but some flashbacks to fill out some character development would have made an already daring and innovative story ten times deeper and more compelling.

[Flightpath07]

Don't be mad, but I thought it was a bit lazy of him. lol He tells us awesome stuff happened but we don't get to see it, we only get to see it all fall apart, and we hardly even knew many of the characters at that point. It was exciting to start the story at the Flight Program's downfall, but some flashbacks to fill out some character development would have made an already daring and innovative story ten times deeper and more compelling.

By the time he got to the point of showing us that panel of Gamma and Beta, he was already bored with writing the series and bitter over having been 'forced' to do so. I don't think it was so much lazy, as just being a snobby prick. "Ha! I'll show them all this, and they'll want more, but i won't give it to them. Stupid fans..."

I find my opinion of JB very negative, in spite of his amazing talent for art, story, and character creation.

He was planning very early to kill off James Hudson, have the team flounder, probably hoping Marvel would pull the plug on the series or something. And his interest in doing MORE telling of back stories, which was essentially what the series was all about to begin with, was likely not very high.

I think we are lucky to have gotten the brilliance we got from him, seeing he thought the way he did about writing these characters in a series. Until his attitude changes (and I have no indication that it has, or ever will), I'd prefer he not come within three kilometers of any AF characters.

[Le Messor]

I imagine he might've told those stories if he'd spent more time on the book.


By the time he got to the point of showing us that panel of Gamma and Beta, he was already bored with writing the series and bitter over having been 'forced' to do so. I don't think it was so much lazy, as just being a snobby prick. "Ha! I'll show them all this, and they'll want more, but i won't give it to them. Stupid fans..."

LOL! The Very first panels of the book!


I think we are lucky to have gotten the brilliance we got from him, seeing he thought the way he did about writing these characters in a series. Until his attitude changes (and I have no indication that it has, or ever will), I'd prefer he not come within three kilometers of any AF characters.

Given what he created with that attitude, I still wouldn't mind giving it a shot.

- Le Messor
Giles: I'll be back in the Middle Ages.
Jenny Calendar: Did you ever leave?

[EccentricSage]

He said on his forum that it was an honor to have contributed a team of characters to the MU, and in regards to Wildchild that he wanted him to be mysterious and let others fill out his back story. Well, we all know how well that tactic turns out now, huh? lol I'm not as bitter about that... So he wanted to write Hulk and stuff, I get it. But damn it, Byrne... XD Wildchild and Lil would have fared a lot better if their creator gave them more of an established background for people to work with. Hell, Smart Alec probably would have gotten revived like Shaman planned if he had any back story, too. Madison Jeffries had a compelling back story and despite being kicked around in the X-Titles a bit, he has endured. Shame about Roger Bochs, though. Flashback was an uninteresting jerk with no back story but a compelling dilemma.

2558
And nothing of value would have been lost.

[Flightpath07]

Flashback was an uninteresting jerk with no back story but a compelling dilemma.

They made him a bit too much of a milksop, if you ask me, especially how he was handled in Volume 3 (although the dilemma he was in was interesting, i must admit as well).

Lil had a lot going for her, but after Volume 2 used her (but barely), there seemed to be little to no interest in her. Unfortunately, most of the AF characters that could have (should have) been great, never got much page-time in other series, so only us die-hard AF fans know and love them.

Smart Alec was always an anomaly for me, an enigma. Was he, too, controlled by Courtney? How could the "world's smartest man" have gone so horribly wrong, so easily? I wish he could have been revived, maybe instead of as a hero then as one of the heads of a new Department H. His intellect would have been most useful...

...As would Bochs' brains, if used properly. Instead, they took something that we see too few of in comics, a 'handicapped' hero, and made him a joke by giving him legs, then throwing him into the ol' Scramble melting pot and just doing away with him. And don't even get me started on his stupid relationship with Aurora! Bochs was an awesome and inspiring hero, and should never have been messed with.

[EccentricSage]

Marvel hates characters who aren't thin and beautiful, far as I can tell. Bochs was neither. Madison wasn't good looking ether, but now he looks like Reed Richards. If a character isn't beautiful, they must ether be changed, or punished for it, or just played for laughs or pity. House of Ideas my ass.

The only character who escaped Courtney's influence was Madison, which he attributed to his powers. This just makes it extra bull**** that most of Omega Flight's members even went to prison in the first place. Alec's greatest downfal was probably hubris. When you believe your own intellect infallible, you will not question your own perception or motives. The think that set Courtney apart from other cases of 'lol Mind Control!' is that it was subtle. The desires and impulses of the characters were their own. They felt abandoned and betrayed, and wanted something better. I'm sure there was intense jealousy and resentment towards Alpha Flight for being the chosen elite while the rest of them were were thrown out on their asses. Wildchild and Lil were most susceptible because of their tempers and lack of hope for a future. Alec and Flashback both had their arrogance that Courtney could play on. Bochs and Madison were down to earth, had skills with which they could still get out of the rut they were in, and genuinely liked Mac. Madison kind of throws his former team mates under the buss to get on team Alpha. He was right to destroy Courtney but he told Lil they'd have to take the fall. Damn that was cold.

I'm missing a lot of the issues with Bochs after Byrne's run, unfortunately. I don't really blame him or the writer for him wanting his legs back... no one WANTS to be crippled... well, ok, there are people with certain mental issues and emotional complexes who do, but that's another subject and off topic. Point is, it's the result of him trying to get his body restored that sucks so bad.

[Le Messor]

Smart Alec was always an anomaly for me, an enigma. Was he, too, controlled by Courtney? How could the "world's smartest man" have gone so horribly wrong, so easily?

Well, some of that smartosity was just arrogant boasting.
But not all.


The only character who escaped Courtney's influence was Madison, which he attributed to his powers.

Bochs did, too. Because they didn't want him, just his robot.


I'm missing a lot of the issues with Bochs after Byrne's run, unfortunately. I don't really blame him or the writer for him wanting his legs back... no one WANTS to be crippled...

True - in fact, not wanting to be crippled is why he built Box in the first place.
I think it's more that, though. In real life, very few people get to stop being crippled; and having one of the few comics characters who is like a lot of real-life people suddenly being able to walk is just a cop-out #coughOraclecough#.

- Le Messor
"Ignorance is when you don't know anything and somebody finds it out."

[Garry/Al-Fan]

At the time John Byrne was doing Alpha Flight (art & writing), he was doing Fantastic Four (art & writing) and writing The Thing. As talented as he was, it seemed like he was spreading himself a little thin. I personally hoped he would devote more to Alpha Flight, but it's clear his interest was more with the Fantastic Four.

Still, even given the fact that AF was being written as if were a self-inflicted maxi-series, the popularity/success of the series/team/concept could not be contained.

Ironically, at the time, Bill Mantlo had some of the most astute observations about the 28-issue run (in interviews in fanzines of that era). It still amazes me that after summarizing the Byrne era so well, the stories that came after were so...poorly executed and denigrating to what had been established. "Continuity", in Alpha Flight's case, is not a blessing.

I would even say that "continuity" is an oxymoron for AF.

[Le Messor]

Ironically, at the time, Bill Mantlo had some of the most astute observations about the 28-issue run (in interviews in fanzines of that era). It still amazes me that after summarizing the Byrne era so well, the stories that came after were so...poorly executed and denigrating

Not so amazing, perhaps, if you allow for his mental breakdown.

- Le Messor
"I'll never forget my last time at Madison Square Garden. Hundreds of people were screaming for me. I must have sold 250 hot dogs."
~ Former boxer Art Aragon, the original Golden Boy

[Phil]

At the time John Byrne was doing Alpha Flight (art & writing), he was doing Fantastic Four (art & writing) and writing The Thing. As talented as he was, it seemed like he was spreading himself a little thin. I personally hoped he would devote more to Alpha Flight, but it's clear his interest was more with the Fantastic Four.

Still, even given the fact that AF was being written as if were a self-inflicted maxi-series, the popularity/success of the series/team/concept could not be contained.

Ironically, at the time, Bill Mantlo had some of the most astute observations about the 28-issue run (in interviews in fanzines of that era). It still amazes me that after summarizing the Byrne era so well, the stories that came after were so...poorly executed and denigrating to what had been established. "Continuity", in Alpha Flight's case, is not a blessing.

I would even say that "continuity" is an oxymoron for AF.

Agreed, and strangely enough along the line of thoughts I just had here (http://alphaflight.net/showthread.php?8283-Wolverine-304-%282012%29-Return-of-an-Alpha-Flight-member&p=87983&viewfull=1#post87983).