Hulk - Mayan Rule [Archive] - AlphaFlight.net - The Home For Alpha Flight Fans

Le Messor

06-08-2012, 04:22 PM

Yeah, but it wasn't much of a leap seeing as we'd seen Snowbird as a sasquatch duking it out with Sasquatch back in March when the appearance was first announced (http://alphaflight.net/content.php?597-Hulk-Alpha-Flight-to-take-on-Mayan-Gods).

I haven't been looking at the art - I rarely do before I look at the comic. So, my bad there.

If the Gamma angle was completely new I'd agree, but it's still the initial cause of his connection to Tanaraq so I can understand the useage.

Yeah, I agree with Phil (without having yet read the book - maybe it'll be a case of saying Sas is a Gamma Beast, not a Great Beast or something and I'll end up agreeing with K-M).

- Le Messor
"If you think this fortune is confusing, then change one pig."

Phil

06-08-2012, 04:26 PM

I haven't been looking at the art - I rarely do before I look at the comic. So, my bad there.
To be fair that's a perfectly valid way to do it; I forget that not everyone likes previews/spoilers. So totally my bad.

Yeah, I agree with Phil (without having yet read the book - maybe it'll be a case of saying Sas is a Gamma Beast, not a Great Beast or something and I'll end up agreeing with K-M).
By that logic you'll end up agreeing with K-M rather than me :))

Le Messor

06-08-2012, 04:47 PM

By that logic you'll end up agreeing with K-M rather than me :)

But will I agree with ME?

- Le Messor
"Easy to agree with others - far harder to agree with yourself."
~ Gremlins 2

-K-M-

06-08-2012, 06:39 PM

If the Gamma angle was completely new I'd agree, but it's still the initial cause of his connection to Tanaraq so I can understand the useage.

He tried to repeat the process of Hulk, he failed and opened up a mystical portal and gained his powers. I seriously dont see how you can say it's the same thing as Tanaraq is not gamma powered nor does Sasqutch emit gamma radiation.

Phil

06-08-2012, 07:48 PM

I didn't say it was the same thing or that he was Gamma powered, but it was his experimentation with gamma rays that opened the portal.
Without the gamma rays and experimentation he'd never have opened it.
There is undeniably a gamma connection which is all I said.
Walter would probably still emit gamma rays.

Though saying that, he is in Snowbird's original body still, isn't he?

-K-M-

06-08-2012, 09:02 PM

The connection is through a failed experiment that opened a mystical gateway to an elder god of the night to power him as an avatar. That's the extent of the gamma radiation connection and that's how the connection ends. No, he shouldn't as the Great Beasts don't emit gamma radiation all the radiation did was open a portal and that's it. Sasquatch nor Tanaraq are a gamma beast their mystical vortexs (as noted). All gamma radiation did was open a door for something more powerful to walk through.

Tanaraq is not a gamma beast
1. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/x-man_040-11.jpg

He is.

Flightpath07

06-09-2012, 02:47 AM

Which is all very weird, as the reason Walter did his gamma radiation experiments, is that he was one of only a handful of people on earth who were immune to gamma radiation effetcs.

Phil

06-09-2012, 03:59 AM

Again KM, never once did I say that either Sasquatch or Tanaraq were Gamma Beasts.
And again, I never said that Great Beasts emit radiation, I specifically used Walter as in human form.
And if as you say, and I agree, that all Gamma radiation did was open a door THAT is surely a connection?

As FP says, Walter is immune to the effects meaning they don't harm him, but having experimented on himself he'd surely give off rats in human form?

-K-M-

06-09-2012, 04:59 PM

Just because your immune to radiation doesnt mean you emit radiation.

Le Messor

06-09-2012, 05:37 PM

As FP says, Walter is immune to the effects meaning they don't harm him, but having experimented on himself he'd surely give off rats in human form?

Just because your immune to radiation doesnt mean you emit radiation.

K-M, it looks ambiguous, but that's not what Phil was saying. He's saying that it's because Walt's immune and and was exposed that he'd give off rads. (Not rats in human form; I believe that's Carrion, and he lives in New York.)

My question is not so much 'is there a connection between Walt / Sas and gamma radiation?' as 'do they say or imply that Sasquatch was created by gamma radiation, and is one of the gamma creatures like Hulk, Doc Sampson, The Leader, or the Abomination?' 'Did he then turn orange because Byrne was such a genius that he foresaw the time when green would no longer exist in comics, and orange was the only colour in the medium?'

- Le Messor
"There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about."
~ Oscar Wilde

-K-M-

06-09-2012, 06:33 PM

I get what he is saying, he says there is a gamma connection and there really is not

Not once has it shown Walter emits radiation and we only saw the one time he tested on himself to replicate the procedure. Yet we never saw a time before or after where he was exposed to radiation. So to say he emit gamma radiation is a stretch.

Yes they said that as why he was orange due to the canadian atmosphere, but as noted he was wrong. He didn't know he opened a door for a mystical creture to power him until later

Legerd

06-10-2012, 02:12 AM

Phil

06-10-2012, 06:47 AM

K-M, it looks ambiguous, but that's not what Phil was saying. He's saying that it's because Walt's immune and and was exposed that he'd give off rads. (Not rats in human form; I believe that's Carrion, and he lives in New York.)
Indeed. Thanks for understanding my ramblings. :)
And grr for autocorrect on my phone. I meant rays.

I get what he is saying, he says there is a gamma connection and there really is not
There is undeniably a gamma connection to Walt/Sasquatch.
In Byrne's original Sasquatch origin story in Volume 1 he recreates Banner's accident and submits himself to gamma rays.
FACT.
Walt + Gamma = Connection.
Not a retcon that Greg Pak/Jeff Parker have pulled out of their asses.

Nowhere did I say that Sasquatch was a result of Gamma mutation or a Gamma beast, simply that his origin on this earth involving Walt was connected to Gamma experimentation.

'Connection' being the key word I carefully chose and used.
Heather & Mac have a connection to Woverine. Does this mean they have adamantium claws and a healing factor? No, but they have a connection.
In the same way had Walt never experimented with Gamma rays he would never have opened the portal linking him to Tanaraq.
No Gamma Rays = No Sasquatch.
Connection.

Not once has it shown Walter emits radiation and we only saw the one time he tested on himself to replicate the procedure. Yet we never saw a time before or after where he was exposed to radiation. So to say he emit gamma radiation is a stretch.
That was something I was hypothesizing about after YOU brought up emitting gamma, so yeah that's fine.
However, nowhere has it been said/shown that he doesn't emit them, so we have nothing in canon either way.

He didn't know he opened a door for a mystical creture to power him until later
Again, opened by the Gamma rays. Connection.

If you go by Vol. 4 though gamma radiation is the means by which Walter activates the transformation into Sasquatch, so there is some kind of connection.
There is that, but I was simply focusing on Byrne's origin.

Whether he would have enough radiation within his cells to merit attention by the Mayan gods is another thing.
Yeah, again, that was me just flowing with this thread.

Looking at the line that's started this whole thing:

...Yet we have almost all we need now. And you brought them. ... The Gamma Race has been instrumental in our return here
it can be taken several ways, and I was never actually defending the line.

-K-M-

06-10-2012, 06:31 PM

Sweet you ignored what I said really. Yes Bryne made a "connection", but the connection as NOTED even by Bryne himself the gamma radiation opened a gateway it did NOT manipulate or modify him directly. Nor does gamma radiation course through him, nor is gamma radiation emitted from Walter or Sasquatch nor was gamma radiation refered to again after it was revealed what Walter thought he did during the experiment was in fact wrong and nor did Walter's current body even go through the gamma radiation experiment making it all trivial.

Following that logic if an energy source is used to open up a doorway such as how Shaman opened up a gateway to the realm of the beasts with magic that means Vindicator, Aurora, etc. all have magical connection then? No. Mr.Fantastic opens gatways to the Negative zone is he powered by that? No. Gamma radiation was the key to open the door, Sasquatch, nor Tanaraq are powered by it their powered by magic as noted. The connection your holding on to is a vague connection and not that strong and prior to Vol.4 was not referenced of Walter being gamma radiation depended.

If you want to nitpick my word use of cameo earlier, Im doing the exact same thing to you now.

-K-M-

06-10-2012, 06:32 PM

If you go by Vol. 4 though gamma radiation is the means by which Walter activates the transformation into Sasquatch, so there is some kind of connection. Whether he would have enough radiation within his cells to merit attention by the Mayan gods is another thing.

*sigh* Clearly you guys are not getting what I'm saying. As I said earlier, "I feel the whole Sasquatch/Tanaraq connection is being ignored for a more gamma radiation orgin". The writers are ignoring the Tanaraq connection and going with the gamma radiation route as prior to AF vol.4 he is and was powered by magic. Hence why Talisman could manipulate him several times and as noted by other mystical sensistive characters could sense Walter. Not once did someone comment on his gamma radiation connection prior to the mystical reveal, nor did it ever say he was gamma radiation dependent.

Also add to the fact he is in Snowbird's body, a body that did not even go through the gamma radiation experiment.

This is a retcon.

cmdrkoenig67

06-10-2012, 06:52 PM

-K-M-

06-10-2012, 06:58 PM

I could totally be recalling this wrong, but I thought Snowbird had indicated (in issue #23 of Volume 1) that the Sasquatch form was a new being and not Tanaraq's true form (and since this new being was born in Canada she was able to take its shape)? I always thought that Sasquatch was a combo of a gamma mutated human and Tanaraq's spirit which came through the portal created by Langkowski's experiment? So he is actually a combo of science and magic?

Dana

That was the original belief, but that was changed when they learnt more. As noted the gamma radiation smashed the gateways for the Beasts to enter. At that time Snowbird did not know much of what was going on and didn't even know Walter had a connection to Tanaraq. We have seen Snowbird take the form of 3 Great Beasts in total, she was mistaken as was Walter beliving he gained his powers through gamma radiation alone.

Le Messor

06-10-2012, 06:58 PM

*sigh* Clearly you guys are not getting what I'm saying. As I said earlier, "I feel the whole Sasquatch/Tanaraq connection is being ignored for a more gamma radiation orgin".

I don't think we are, we're just saying that he could still have gamma radiation in his body. And trying to make sense of the comic (which I haven't read yet, I'm just trying to reconcile what's being said on this thread; I could be missing pertinent details because of it).
Walter bombarded himself with gamma during his origin; which is different to your examples above. It could still be there (at least, the way it works in the MU, it could). Nobody here is saying that's what made Sasquatch, just that it's still in his system. Which hasn't been mentioned before, because why would it?

Also add to the fact he is in Snowbird's body, a body that did not even go through the gamma radiation experiment.

Now that is completely true and shows sloppy research by the writers.

- Le Messor
"If you think squash is a competitive activity, try flower arranging."
~ Alan Bennett

-K-M-

06-10-2012, 07:07 PM

From his recent bio:
"Eventually working in an isolated lab above the Artic Circle, Langkwoski exposed himself to gamma rays, hoping to recreate the Hulk mutation under controlled circumstances. Instead, he unknowingly peirced a mystic barrier that imprisoned the Great Beast Tanaraq, allowing him to form a mystic symbiosis with Langwaski, transforming Langwoski into a bestial avatar of Tanaraq; however, Longwoski wrongly believed the unexpected orange-furred results of the experiment were from a combination of mixing gamma radiation and cosmic rays with the Aurora Borelesis"

They also specfically go on to mention several times he is mystical powered and was mystically bonded.

-K-M-

06-10-2012, 07:09 PM

I don't think we are, we're just saying that he could still have gamma radiation in his body. And trying to make sense of the comic (which I haven't read yet, I'm just trying to reconcile what's being said on this thread; I could be missing pertinent details because of it).
Walter bombarded himself with gamma during his origin; which is different to your examples above. It could still be there (at least, the way it works in the MU, it could). Nobody here is saying that's what made Sasquatch, just that it's still in his system. Which hasn't been mentioned before, because why would it?

Now that is completely true and shows sloppy research by the writers.

- Le Messor
"If you think squash is a competitive activity, try flower arranging."
~ Alan Bennett

and other characters bombared themeselves with magic (such as Iron Man) but does that mean he have a magical connection? No. As noted all the gamma rays did was open the door for Walter to gain the powers of Tanaraq. Radation eventually decays and wouldn't constantly remain especially with someone that has a healing factor. Look at Wolverine and the amount of radiation he has been exposed to, but he does not emit radiation or have radiation in his system

Le Messor

06-10-2012, 07:13 PM

I could totally be recalling this wrong, but I thought Snowbird had indicated (in issue #23 of Volume 1) that the Sasquatch form was a new being and not Tanaraq's true form

That's a possible interpretation - I got that it was the combination of Walter and Tanaraq that was new, not the form itself, as indicated by her 'rents, showing Birdie the form of the last Great Beast, and it was Sas. Also, we've only ever seen Tanaraq looking like Sas, no other form.

and other characters bombared themeselves with magic (such as Iron Man) but does that mean he have a magical connection?

Look at it this way - I'd never have written a comic that said that Walter still has gamma radiation in his (much less Snowbird's) body. However, now that we (apparently) have one, I'm just trying to make it make some sense.

Oh, well, at least nobody's ever said he's a dog-mutant.

- Le Messor
"If you took all the sincerity in Hollywood and put it in the navel of a fruit fly, you'd still have room for three carraway seeds and a producer's heart."
~ Fred Allen

cmdrkoenig67

06-10-2012, 07:19 PM

But do we know for a fact that Sasquatch has Tanaraq's powers or are they merely the powers this avatar form has? Do we even know for a fact that Tanaraq had a physical form or did he just influence the form that Langkowski's experiment created so he could inhabit it? There seems to be still a few questions left unanswered where Tanaraq and Sasquatch are concerned.

BTW: Snowbird being able to transform into Great Beasts is a retcon too, isn't it? She originally could only transform into Native canadian beings and animals, then later she was free to transform into any animal native to Earth (later in Volume 1). As she said in volume 1, she could transform into the Sasquatch form because it was a native-born Canadian creature...Tanaraq is not, as he and the Great Beasts are extra-dimensional beings.

Snowbird being able to transform into Neooqtoq and Tundra are retcons, AFAIK (since they are aliens, unless of course, they were both somehow born on Earth or perhaps their forms are Earthly avatars that she can become?).

Dana

-K-M-

06-10-2012, 07:22 PM

Look at it this way - I'd never have written a comic that said that Walter still has gamma radiation in his (much less Snowbird's) body. However, now that we (apparently) have one, I'm just trying to make it make some sense.

Oh, well, at least nobody's ever said he's a dog-mutant.

- Le Messor
"If you took all the sincerity in Hollywood and put it in the navel of a fruit fly, you'd still have room for three carraway seeds and a producer's heart."
~ Fred Allen

Yes, which as I was saying this is a retcon. As my original comment "I feel the whole Sasquatch/Tanaraq connection is being ignored for a more gamma radiation orgin", indicates that prior to Vol.4 the gamma connection was not referenced nor was he dependent on gamma radiation. The writers are modifying his origins/powers for their story same way Loeb was trying with Sasquatch being a Lupine. All gamma radiation did was open a door for a mystical force to walk through, that's the extent of the connection.

-K-M-

06-10-2012, 07:26 PM

cmdrkoenig67

06-10-2012, 07:31 PM

Sorry I edited my post so much...LOL. I added a lot (about Snowbird) to it after I posted it.

Dana

cmdrkoenig67

06-10-2012, 07:34 PM

Indeed, it's mentioned in the bios he is class 90 in his base form but can draw on more strength by tapping more into Tanaraq. In the bio it also says, "Langwoski's soul later animated Snowbird's body granting him idential powers as Tanaraq's form".

I actually used to wonder if Wanda (cringe) would theoretically be able to transform into other animals/creatures like Snowbird could, but s/he just didn't know how to? That s/he was only able to turn into Sasquatch because that's all s/he knew and Snowbird's body was able to take that form?

-K-M-

06-10-2012, 07:36 PM

BTW: Snowbird being able to transform into Great Beasts is a retcon too, isn't it? She originally could only transform into Native canadian beings and animals, then later she was free to transform into any animal native to Earth (later in Volume 1). As she said in volume 1, she could transform into the Sasquatch form because it was a native-born Canadian creature...Tanaraq is not, as he and the Great Beasts are extra-dimensional beings.

Snowbird being able to transform into Neooqtoq and Tundra are retcons, AFAIK (since they are aliens, unless of course, they were both somehow born on Earth or perhaps their forms are Earthly avatars that she can become?).

Dana

Yes, it's a retcon. Retcons happen there is no denying it. Im not against them, but as I said I feel their ignoring his true origins and retconning it. Then all I have been doing is explaining why this is a retcon.

Also Snowbird could transform into any animal on Earth when she was mortal, when she became immortal again it's only supposed to be from Canada again. Then with her rebirth her powers seemed to have changed under the experiments with AIM. She is still mentioned to be only able to transform into Canadian creatures plus the Great Beasts for some reason.

-K-M-

06-10-2012, 07:38 PM

I actually used to wonder if Wanda (cringe) would theoretically be able to transform into other animals/creatures like Snowbird could, but s/he just didn't know how to? That s/he was only able to turn into Sasquatch because that's all s/he knew and Snowbird's body was able to take that form?

Yep Im right with you on that, I feel like Wanda could transform into more transformation, but as you said that's all she knew and thats all she could transform into.

Phil

06-10-2012, 08:27 PM

Yes Bryne made a "connection", but the connection as NOTED even by Bryne himself the gamma radiation opened a gateway it did NOT manipulate or modify him directly.
I never once said it did manipulate or modify him.

Nor does gamma radiation course through him, nor is gamma radiation emitted from Walter or Sasquatch
And you were the one who brought up emitting.

and nor did Walter's current body even go through the gamma radiation experiment making it all trivial.
Which is something I mentioned, in agreement.

Following that logic if an energy source is used to open up a doorway such as how Shaman opened up a gateway to the realm of the beasts with magic that means Vindicator, Aurora, etc. all have magical connection then? No.
They do in that regards though.
They have been exposed to magic.
Compared to a normal human being in the Marvel Universe they have a stronger connection to magic, having experienced it.

Mr.Fantastic opens gatways to the Negative zone is he powered by that? No.
Again, nowhere have I said Sasquatch is powered by Gamma.
Mr Fantastic is however now connected to the Negative Zone.

Gamma radiation was the key to open the door
Which is the connection I mentioned that I really really regret doing.

Sasquatch, nor Tanaraq are powered by it their powered by magic as noted.
I totally agree, and have never stated otherwise.

The connection your holding on to is a vague connection and not that strong and prior to Vol.4 was not referenced of Walter being gamma radiation depended.
That's true, it's vague and not often referenced but it exists hence I understand it.
Nowhere did I say I liked it, merely that I understand it.

If you want to nitpick my word use of cameo earlier, Im doing the exact same thing to you now.
I didn't once nitpick.
I said that "I" wouldn't call it a cameo.
Meaning me, myself and I.
My opinion.
You can call it a cameo, I call it something else. Hell, I can call it a blue bouncing banana if I want.
Nowhere did I say that you were wrong to call it a cameo.

Why is it that suddenly this place has become somewhere that I can't express my opinion?
Your initial post asked for my(/our) thoughts and when I give them to you you jump down my throat telling me I'm wrong.

All gamma radiation did was open a door for a mystical force to walk through, that's the extent of the connection.
Which is the only thing I've been saying from the start.

Forget emiting gamma, forget gamma powered, forget gamma beast, forget gamma origin. I never said any of those things originally.

Sasquatch's gamma connection makes sense so I can overlook the possessed-again-ness of it all.
Key words being "connection" and "I can overlook"

Again, I meaning me and only me alone. If I'm the only person in the world who overlooks it then so be it.
I'm not making it law or forcing it upon anyone else.

Can we just agree to disagree and leave it at that extent of a connection as you've mentioned above.

Phil

06-10-2012, 09:06 PM

Yes, it's a retcon. Retcons happen there is no denying it. Im not against them, but as I said I feel their ignoring his true origins and retconning it. Then all I have been doing is explaining why this is a retcon.
Going by that logic then, the Tanaraq connection is the retcon.
Sasquatch's origin as told in Volume 1 #11 is all Gamma related.
nowhere is the portal or Tanaraq mentioned in that issue.

Or at least that's how I read it.
Youre welcome to disagree :)

Le Messor

06-10-2012, 10:50 PM

Again, I meaning me and only me alone. If I'm the only person in the world who overlooks it then so be it.
I'm not making it law or forcing it upon anyone else.

It's not just you.

I've understood what you've been saying - and what you haven't - all along; sorry if I haven't made my support clear.

- Mik
"It makes all the difference whether you hear an insect in the garden or in the bedroom."
~ Robert Lynd

Flightpath07

06-11-2012, 02:34 AM

As she said in volume 1, she could transform into the Sasquatch form because it was a native-born Canadian creature...Tanaraq is not, as he and the Great Beasts are extra-dimensional beings.

I always thought Snowy could transform into Sasquatch form because 'a Sasquatch' (as clearly shown on Volume 2) is a native form to Canada.

Likewise, i never really thought that Tanaraq (?) made Sasquatch into its avatar, so much as twisted Langkowksi's experiment (which took place both in Canada, and near the fickle nothern lights-which may have played havoc with the experiment as well) so that rather than a pure 'gamma beast form' (and please note that every gamma beast created, they all look different) Walter was transformed into a beast more like both Tanaraq and also like the Sasquatch beast that is native to Canada.

On a side note, shouldn't there be a clear explanation as to why Tanaraq and Sasquatches look so similar?

Also, Walter may likely have, and likely did, expose himself to gamma radiation more than just the single time, as how else would he have known that he was immune to gamma radiation (which is what Fantastic Four issue 267 implies rather strongly)? It is also stated in several places that Walter WAS bombarded with massive amounts of Gamma Rays during his experiment; if he hadn't been, he would have then wondered how and why he could transform into a creature like Sas.

All in all, an interesting discussion. Once again, we reach areas where we can see that we wish past writers (such as Byrne) had been more clear on what Walter went through and how it all relates, and instead we get new writers interpreting these things in ways that fit their current storyline (and many of us don't like it). Such is the fickleness of comics, especially when your team/character is not being written by a trusted writer in an ongoing series; we have no control over what happens to the charcaters we love, and those who temporarily do have the control, have no repercussions for screwing up a character they will drop and never touch again in a few issues.

Le Messor

06-11-2012, 02:49 AM

I always thought Snowy could transform into Sasquatch form because 'a Sasquatch' (as clearly shown on Volume 2) is a native form to Canada.

She actually stated clearly that she could become Sasquatch because the bonding of Walt & Tanaraq happened in Canada, which is a technicality.
She even used that word.

Such is the fickleness of comics, especially when your team/character is not being written by a trusted writer in an ongoing series; we have no control over what happens to the charcaters we love, and those who temporarily do have the control, have no repercussions for screwing up a character they will drop and never touch again in a few issues.

*sigh* sad but true.

- Le Messor
"A day is a miniature eternity."
~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

Flightpath07

06-11-2012, 02:57 AM

One of the things i love so much about this site, is the people's passion.

So, for anybody who may be a noob here and is reading this thread, "relax, everyone here are friends"! Sometimes our passions for the character(s) get the best of us, and we just have to cut loose with some major complaining, and 'dang all who get in our way' until we have calmed down. But, at the end of the day, everyone here respects each other and our rights to dfferent opinions and such (even though all who disagree with me, are wrong- lol).

I've been known to cut loose a few times myself.

But, like the Ramones sang, "We're a happy family" !

-K-M-

06-11-2012, 06:43 PM

I'm not going further in the above posts any further, but since gamma was only used to open a mystical gateway (for Tanaraq to bleed through) there should be no reason a person can manipulate the gamma radiation. Also the fact he is in Snowbird's body, which never went through that experiment. Also in Vol.1 Pestilence and Talisman controlled Sasquatch saying he was a Great Beast several times. You guys are using statements that were even proven wrong later on in Vol.1 and in other series.

Also the Fantastic Four askes Walter to join as he had an expertise on radiation, which he does. Not because he bombards himself with gamma radiation. There are real world humans that are called for their knowledge of radiation to assist in a case study, doesnt mean they expose themselves to radiation it means they know the field.

How could you guys not think Tanaraq made him into his avatar? It's the exact same situation with Tundra and Snowbird's father. He looked exactly like Tundra, but wasn't really Tundra.

Le Messor

06-12-2012, 05:49 AM

How could you guys not think Tanaraq made him into his avatar? It's the exact same situation with Tundra and Snowbird's father. He looked exactly like Tundra, but wasn't really Tundra.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that, K-M.

If he can manipulate gamma radiation in the Hulk, that's just a mistake.

- Le Messor
"If you thought yesterday was bad, wait till you see what happens today."

Phil

06-12-2012, 09:22 AM

there should be no reason a person can manipulate the gamma radiation.
I'm at a loss as to where this is coming from.
I haven't seen manipulation mentioned anywhere.
If it has been, I apologise.

Also the fact he is in Snowbird's body, which never went through that experiment.
Again, I agree with you.

You guys are using statements that were even proven wrong later on in Vol.1 and in other series.
Proven wrong or retconned?

There are real world humans that are called for their knowledge of radiation to assist in a case study, doesnt mean they expose themselves to radiation it means they know the field.
That's true; it doesn't mean they do.
However it has been shown that Walter did.
It's since been written/retconned/whatever that the exposing himself to radiation had nothing to do with Sasquatch.
That's fine, again I never stated that it did, but it doesn't erase that fact that he still exposed himself to it. At least in his body.

Flightpath07

06-12-2012, 02:43 PM

Also the Fantastic Four askes Walter to join as he had an expertise on radiation, which he does. Not because he bombards himself with gamma radiation. There are real world humans that are called for their knowledge of radiation to assist in a case study, doesnt mean they expose themselves to radiation it means they know the field.

Ack. Now that I had a chance to open the issue and look again, i see you are right; my bad. I know I saw/read something just recently, though, that said that Langkowski DID bombard himself with massive amounts of gamma rays. As i cannot come up with where, however, I''ll drop it and concede the point to you.

UPDATED: Machine Man issue 18: "Years ago, Dr. Walter Langkowski discovered that he was one of an infinitessimaly small percentage of the earth's population who would not have a fatal reaction to gamma radiation! Through controlled irradiation, he could achieve awesome power...Intense mental concentration triggers his gamma altered thyroid! His body hair takes on a golden hue...and thickens! His muscles bulge with incredible strength, and..Sasquatch walks the earth!"

So, after finding and reading this, I stand by my original thoughts. Any mention of Sasquatch NOT being subjected to gamma radiation, and THAT being the cause of his transformation into Sasquatch, is incorrect, and is a "retconned hatchet job" (my own words). It was not in sticking to the true character design. Walter Langkowski was supposed to be Sasquatch, because he was subjected to gamma radiation. That was how he was originally written, both by his creator, John Byrne, and by Tom DeFalco in the issue quoted above, dated December of 1980.

I haven't read the Hulk issue(s) yet, but have no problem with them mentioning something that is keeping with hpw the character was originally written and meant to be. Unfortunately, people changing written history, and then other people changing it back, happens all the time in comics.

Le Messor

06-12-2012, 04:32 PM

Any mention of Sasquatch NOT being subjected to gamma radiation, and THAT being the cause of his transformation into Sasquatch, is incorrect, and is a "retconned hatchet job" (my own words). It was not in sticking to the true character design. Walter Langkowski was supposed to be Sasquatch, because he was subjected to gamma radiation. That was how he was originally written, both by his creator, John Byrne, and by Tom DeFalco in the issue quoted above, dated December of 1980.

Well, K-M is right in that it was Byrne's "retconned hatchet job"; he was originally written as a gamma-powered creature (à là Hulk), but the actual cause of his transformation into Sasquatch is that he became linked to Tanaraq.

He clearly bombarded himself with gamma radiation in his origin in #11; note all his talk about "My intent: to recreate, under controlled conditions, the circumstances which produced the Hulk." and then bombards himself with gamma radiation.

However, in #23, Narya's parents tell her to "Look now upon the form and substance of one of the Last Seven, of the Great Beasts." - and it's Sasquatch. (btw, that answers another controversy we've had - are there only seven Great Beasts? There are now. Which pretty much puts me in the wrong on that one.)

Snowbird repeats his talk of wanting to duplicate the Banner Hulk experiment, then: "At first it seemed that he had been successful... But I now know it was not transformation so much as transposition. Langkowski unleashed for a fraction of a second enough physical energy to sunder the mystical barrier that holds the Great Beasts."

So here's why everybody in this argument is right:
Walt's Sasquatch origin did begin with him bombarding himself with gamma radiation.
However, that bombardment didn't create a new Hulk, but instead opened up a doorway for a mystical creature.

Gamma radiation is the origin of his getting the power, but not the source of the power.
If it hadn't been for Tanaraq, he'd likely have been another Hulk.

So, if he were still in his original body (which he isn't), the way Marvel physics work, he could still be emitting gamma radiation.

I think I left sense behind a couple of paragraphs ago.

- Le Messor
"If you want the rainbow, you got to put up with the rain."

Phil

06-12-2012, 05:52 PM

So here's why everybody in this argument is right:
Walt's Sasquatch origin did begin with him bombarding himself with gamma radiation.
However, that bombardment didn't create a new Hulk, but instead opened up a doorway for a mystical creature.

Gamma radiation is the origin of his getting the power, but not the source of the power.
If it hadn't been for Tanaraq, he'd likely have been another Hulk.

So, if he were still in his original body (which he isn't), the way Marvel physics work, he could still be emitting gamma radiation.

I think I left sense behind a couple of paragraphs ago.

I think you make perfect sense and can happily agree with everything you've put there.

-K-M-

06-12-2012, 08:22 PM

I'm at a loss as to where this is coming from.
I haven't seen manipulation mentioned anywhere.
If it has been, I apologise.
.

Alpha Flight #2, Vol.4
"Quasar-level gamma rays concentrated the Hulk-stuff in Sasquatch's cells converted him to human form"

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f188/A_Flight5/AlphaFlight02pg06-7copy.jpg

Gamma manipulation reverted Walter back to human, however, I strongly believe there must have been something else that happened as there was a drawing of Tanaraq in Ranark's cave in AF #3 Vol.4 and he mentioned the Great Beasts were going to return but in the series they never did.

Phil

06-13-2012, 04:57 AM

Alpha Flight #2, Vol.4
"Quasar-level gamma rays concentrated the Hulk-stuff in Sasquatch's cells converted him to human form"

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f188/A_Flight5/AlphaFlight02pg06-7copy.jpg
That's true.
I was thinking specifically about Hulk #53 so had put Vol. 4 out of my mind, so I apologise for that.
(I still however think that had Banner not undergone the accident then Walter would never have attempted to copy it and thus never opened the portal so for that reason I personally can still understand/overlook the line in #53, but that's just me and I'm not trying to force it upon anyone)

I think the issue with Volume 4 is that if they focused on the Tanaraq connection the Sasquatch would essentially just become Snowbird-lite and thus rendered pointless so they glossed over that side.
Plus, other than us here I'd imagine no other readers remember Walt is in Snowbird's body and had they spent time explaining that it'd just waste space and lose readers even quicker than they did.

So/However, the line *could* be explained via two ways:-

A) Brown was a minion of The Master, brainwashed by Unity ( and wasn't a genius or scientist to start with) so was just running with whichever line The Master fed him, and gamma had nothing to do with the transformation and it was all Great Beadt related, like you noted

I strongly believe there must have been something else that happened as there was a drawing of Tanaraq in Ranark's cave in AF #3 Vol.4 and he mentioned the Great Beasts were going to return but in the series they never did.
(The fact that The Master used The Great Beasts as a reason for Snowbird being taken down but not Sas makes my thinking here slightly iffy though, which brings us to...)

OR

B)

I hate to bring up this card as canon.

I really hate to bring this card up as canon.

Alpha Flight Volume 3 Issue 12.
Last page.
Last two panels.

Walt is shown experimenting on himself, and while I don't have the issue to hand I believe the line is something along the lines of 'Langkowski goes back to his favourite pasttime, experimenting on himself again' (very rough remembering)

Now the only time we've seen Walt experiment on himself before it was with Gamma, back in Vol.1 #11.
So it's not a leap to assume that he's doing the same here.
We could also infer from this that he was experimenting on himself with Gamma circa Deadpool #1 & AF Vol. 2 (I don't have the issues to hand, but while it wasn't stated he was, it wasn't stated he wasn't so we have a handbook-style loophole of canon)

This could also explain/strengthen how he survived The Collective.

Going with this, Walt is still in Snowbird's original body, and Tanaraq is still the source of his power and the reason behind his transformation BUT he also still has Gamma cells in his body, which while not doing anything due to Walt being immune to radiation are still present in his body and can be manipulated by The Master and sensed by The Mayan Gods.

That sound like a feasible compromise?

Le Messor

06-13-2012, 05:24 AM

Walt is shown experimenting on himself, and while I don't have the issue to hand I believe the line is something along the lines of 'Langkowski goes back to his favourite pasttime, experimenting on himself again' (very rough remembering)

First panel: Walt, hooked up to machines, about to press a button.
Caption: "Dr. Walter Langkowski has since returned to his lab where he continues to push the boundarties of biotechnology, using his favorite subject."
Next panel, something like lightning striking a lab in the Arctic. Speech bubble: "Whoops."

Mokole

06-14-2012, 12:18 PM

See? All of this is a perfect lead-in for Marvel to do an AF miniseries about....the Beta Project! Once and for all, our very own, Canadian super-hero project, not a shoehorned Project Rebirth or Weapon X/Plus/Multiply/Exponential.

Maybe they can have the Beta Project trying to create a new Chinook or, better yet, use Puck's old gang to make super soldiers, not bad guys though. Or even the Beta Project to recreate what happened to Puck...

Flightpath07

06-14-2012, 02:48 PM

Legerd

06-14-2012, 10:03 PM

Hurray, Le Messor! You have taken a fractious thread and, in a brilliant display of logic and diplomacy, made peace amongst us all.

rplass

06-14-2012, 10:43 PM

Hurray, Le Messor! You have taken a fractious thread and, in a brilliant display of logic and diplomacy, made peace amongst us all.

I'll drink to that! So will Phil, I'm sure. Many times.

Flightpath07

06-15-2012, 04:56 AM

Hurray, Le Messor! You have taken a fractious thread and, in a brilliant display of logic and diplomacy, made peace amongst us all.

Whoa. I know i just woke up from a nap, but i feel like I might have just fallen down a rabbit hole...where am I, and what have we done with logic and reason?

Phil

06-15-2012, 08:29 AM

Marvel have posted a Q&A with Dale Eaglesham (http://marvel.com/news/story/18899/hulk_week_qa_dale_eaglesham) regarding his Hulk run, which features a preview image from Hulk #55 featuring AF:

2511

Le Messor

06-15-2012, 05:23 PM

Hurray, Le Messor! You have taken a fractious thread and, in a brilliant display of logic and diplomacy, made peace amongst us all.

Thanks. :oops:

Flightpath07

06-15-2012, 11:38 PM

Thanks. :oops:

LOOK OUT! He's turning RED!

You won't like him when he turns red.

Le Messor

06-16-2012, 05:04 PM

Still better than when I turn purple.

Legerd

06-17-2012, 02:16 AM

Whoa. I know i just woke up from a nap, but i feel like I might have just fallen down a rabbit hole...where am I, and what have we done with logic and reason?

I know, scary, eh?

Marvel have posted a Q&A with Dale Eaglesham (http://marvel.com/news/story/18899/hulk_week_qa_dale_eaglesham) regarding his Hulk run, which features a preview image from Hulk #55 featuring AF:

Aside from the art I'm not liking this story. Half of the team is in the hospital, the other half was taken out by the villain. AF will never draw in new fans if they are only ever seen as red shirts in every guest appearance.

Flightpath07

06-17-2012, 03:26 AM

Aside from the art I'm not liking this story. Half of the team is in the hospital, the other half was taken out by the villain. AF will never draw in new fans if they are only ever seen as red shirts in every guest appearance.

Which goes back to what i said here http://alphaflight.net/showthread.php?8346-Article-Hulk-54-Preview

Is it possible that the only way Marvel would let another (Volume 4, in this case) AF mini be written, was that somebody had to pitch the idea of making AF a big joke? I mean, c'mon; one member (Aurora) is bat-s%&t crazy, one member (Puck) is bat-out-of-heck crazy, one member (Heather) killed her relatives in cold blood and fled, one member (James) is dealing with his wife and daughter fleeing away from him, one member (Marrina) cycles between the personalities of Wolverine and Deadpool, one member (Walter) is Hulk-dumb...need i go on? Seriously, Alpha Flight is a bigger joke now than when Mailman Mike wiped them out off-panel. It seems like Marvel never wants them to be treated seriosuly, never wants them to be a true heavy-hitter, always wants to treat them like the Great Lakes Avengers or something...I'm not impressed.

Phil

06-20-2012, 11:36 AM

CBR have a Commentary Track with Jeff Parker for Hulk #53 at http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=39272

Alpha related bits are:

In this page we have another scene of what feels like character growth for Ross when Guardian says he contacted them before they undertook action on Canadian soil, and it seems Ross is even heeding Guardian's advice. Is that true? Would the old Ross behave like that? Was he an arrogant leader who expected his orders followed to the letter or was he more egalitarian? Further, what's your sense of the current dynamic between the Red Hulk and Alpha Flight?
Ross is all about protocol when there is any; he likes all that order and hierarchy. Ever since he became the Red Hulk he's been trying to sneak his military life back in even though he can't be a General again. I don't think he was actually arrogant, but yes, he did expect that his orders were The Word and a unit follows them all the way.He seems to respect Alpha Flight a little more than many of the US super groups because they are a national-based defense. That's the kind of thing he understands. Other groups just thrown together for vague reasons? He doesn't trust that!

In this scene the Mayan's reveal another ability. It looks like they can possess beings? Do they need to be beings of limited intellect like Sasquatch or can they possess other more intelligent beings as well?
They don't do it again, it's just something they could exploit with Sasquatch at his current state of clarity. He got knocked back a bit in recent stories -- Dr. Langowski would never have succumbed.

We also get a look Snowbird transforming and the Sasquatch shape she morphs into. I don't recall Snowbird's animals and transforming process ever looking this sort of ethereal. Is this a new effect or has it been used before? And who came up with it, you or Dale?
That's Dale! He started that in his ["Alpha Flight"] story with Greg Pak and Fred Van Lente. It's been great having him in here to keep Alpha Flight running smooth. He's also very clever with depictions and effects, that Eaglesham. He's been a joy to work with.

Here you reveal that the Mayans possessed Sasquatch to try and lure Red Hulk and Alpha Flight into their temple. This suggests the Mayans won't be doing a lot of fighting out in the open and that, at least at first, they'll rely on subterfuge. Is that correct? Or do they have forces or members that can go toe-to-toe with the Hulk outside of their temples and fortifications?
Exactly, they start off sneaky and subtle. And once they don't need to be so cagey, they go totally big. You'll see in the next issue, they have some real ancient bruisers who pack a wallop. They've had a lot of time to think about this plan…

Flightpath07

06-20-2012, 01:07 PM

That's nice that AF got mentioned.

Not exactly any new news here, though, that's for sure; AF is a nation-based defense team, Sasquatch is stupid, Eaglesham is a good artist, and...that's it for the "Alpha" stuff.

Worth a mention for the dedicated (ie. on this site) fan, but not likely to cause the casual fan to give even a second more of thought towards our beloved Flight.

cmdrkoenig67

06-22-2012, 11:53 PM

Going by that logic then, the Tanaraq connection is the retcon.
Sasquatch's origin as told in Volume 1 #11 is all Gamma related.
nowhere is the portal or Tanaraq mentioned in that issue.

Or at least that's how I read it.
Youre welcome to disagree :)

I certainly think John Byrne had it planned and even hinted at it in the origin.

Dana

Whoops...Sorry, I'm a little late to this conversation.

-K-M-

07-05-2012, 08:17 PM

Hulk 54 and 55 are out and no discussion? I like the story and Dale's art alone is worth the purchase.

Alpha Flight specific spoilers

Hulk 54 - Alpha Flight is recovering in the hospital and Puck is yelling at Ross for answers. Aurora, Snowbird and Sasquatch are still trapped in the pyramid and drained dried like the two She Hulks in the previous issue. Each person they drain they can revive a Mayan God. Sasquatch is so strong he could revive two on his own, while everyone else one. Interesting as Snowbird was in Sasquatch form and she only brought one Mayan back.

Hulk 55 - All the people drained are basically dead except for Snowbird, this is due to the fact she is powered by the Inuit gods (Inua technically). So guess that means Sasquatch and the Great Beasts is either officially retconned or ignored. Also A-Bomb/Rick Jones says, "Alpha Flight, they're all mutants, aren't they? I mean, that's essentially what we are, but we're not....natural". Then Machine Man says Snowbird is not she is supernautral and doesnt mention the same for Sasquatch. So now Alpha Flight might be retconned to be mutants. Captain America phones team Rulk and mentions Puck has been constantly phoning him for updates. Aurora, Sasquatch and Snowbird are rescued and the rest of the team is going to be brought back to fight the Mayans

Decent story, definetly have a few issues but I am really enjoying it. The Avengers back-up team was pretty random and obscure characters...more so then Alpha Flight, but I pretty much knew them all. Not sure why Toro (not Golden-Age Toro a different one) was there, he is a Young Allies

Flightpath07

07-05-2012, 09:51 PM

Ret-Cons suck!

I am hoping the mutants crack was meant to be a joke, perhaps suggested by Dale?

I haven't read the issues yet, won't be able to for a few weeks still. You said they were "rescued", so i am taking it that means they are not old dried up dead husks anymore?

EccentricSage

07-05-2012, 10:43 PM

This sounds interesting. I hope I can get to a comic shop, soon.

Not all retcons are bad, Wolverine was originally supposed to be a super evolved actual Wolverine, for example. I think what matters is weather a retcon adds something of value to the character or takes it away or doesn't make sense. Loeb's retcon turns Wolvy back into a super evolved animal, but even makes less sense, and takes away a lot that has been established on the MU in regards to feral and lycanthropic mutants, and thus is terrible by comparison.

I prefer the idea of Sasquatch being of mystical origin better than Gamma ray induced mutation. The Gamma Ray thing has already been done to great effect to the point where it makes Sas seem like an imitation. People should correct the author on what Sas' origin status is. This sounds more like an error that could be written out of continuity easily than an intentional retcon. A retcon should involve some explanation for how the origin has been changed or was previously incorrect. The last thing Alpha needs is more continuity issues at this point.

Flightpath07

07-06-2012, 03:55 AM

So, ES...are you in favour of this retcon (Sas is not connected to the Great Beasts and all of AF are mutants), or not? Your answer was a bit ambivalent the way it was written.

Phil

07-06-2012, 06:01 AM

Hulk 54 and 55 are out and no discussion?
I thought it best not to add my thoughts to this thread! ;)

rplass

07-06-2012, 07:45 AM

I wont even be mentioning that I won't be adding my thoughts.

Flightpath07

07-06-2012, 10:27 AM

That spectacular, was it? Oy.

Phil

07-06-2012, 12:35 PM

No no, I just don't want to start another argument because my analysis differs to someone elses.

Flightpath07

07-06-2012, 01:15 PM

No no, I just don't want to start another argument because my analysis differs to someone elses.

Oh. Is this about (or not about?) the Sasquatch thing?

I like Sasquatch. And cheese. And I'd buy a Sasquatch made of cheese for a dollar.

Phil

07-06-2012, 01:17 PM

The cheese Sasquatch is ten dollars because it's a variant.

Flightpath07

07-06-2012, 01:21 PM

The cheese Sasquatch is ten dollars because it's a variant.

Lol. Oh, that's a gouda one, Phil!

Mokole

07-06-2012, 02:46 PM

You haverti read it, then? I hope they did good by Puck.

As far as the 'mutants' thing, I'd say Jones was just pointing out that all but Guardian isn't exactly a human standard, all are altered humans. Not exactly accurate, as to be a mutant means you have mutated (non-standard) genes. A Marvel mutant has a specific x-gene mutation, other 'mutants' have their original DNA altered. I don't think Puck falls into that category, Marrina certainly does, Guardian no, Sasquatch maybe.

Sasquatch because of the gamma experiment opened a portal to become attached to a Great Beast. Mutated genes?

Puck was squashed by magic, no gene mutating necessary.

-K-M-

07-06-2012, 03:49 PM

You said they were "rescued", so i am taking it that means they are not old dried up dead husks anymore?

Still all dried up, but their free from the Pyramid.

I thought it best not to add my thoughts to this thread! ;)

*sigh* you can add your thoughts

I wont even be mentioning that I won't be adding my thoughts.

Didn't like it?

Le Messor

07-06-2012, 05:11 PM

Hulk 54 and 55 are out and no discussion? I like the story and Dale's art alone is worth the purchase.

I haven't had a chance to re-read 53 yet, which I want to do because it could affect my thoughts on the four pages of argument preceding. (I think I missed something that set that argument off.) So, I've been quiet about these.
Also, I don't have 55 yet, edam it!

As far as the 'mutants' thing, I'd say Jones was just pointing out that all but Guardian isn't exactly a human standard, all are altered humans. Not exactly accurate, as to be a mutant means you have mutated (non-standard) genes. A Marvel mutant has a specific x-gene mutation, other 'mutants' have their original DNA altered. I don't think Puck falls into that category, Marrina certainly does, Guardian no, Sasquatch maybe.

Technically, in the MU, 'mutant' simply means you were born with your powers - in the MU. It's a different definition to ours.

I wont even be mentioning that I won't be adding my thoughts.
Didn't like it?

I think that was a joke. Did you notice that Rob mentioned exactly what he posted to say he won't even be mentioning?

- Le Messor
"I'm a prostitute robot from the future!"
~ Manny

rplass

07-06-2012, 07:06 PM

Didn't like it?

Heh, I didn't read it yet. It was horribly unfair of me to imply I had a negative opinion of it. I'm so ashamed.

Flightpath07

07-07-2012, 02:45 AM

I'm so ashamed.

You need to say that in more of a Kirk voice: "I'm...so ashamed."

rplass

07-07-2012, 09:49 PM

Yeah, except Kirk would never say that because he ain't ashamed ever.

Flightpath07

07-08-2012, 01:35 AM

Yeah, except Kirk would never say that because he ain't ashamed ever.

Yeah, i should have figured that out from the bad hairpiece.

EccentricSage

07-08-2012, 02:01 AM

So, ES...are you in favour of this retcon (Sas is not connected to the Great Beasts and all of AF are mutants), or not? Your answer was a bit ambivalent the way it was written.

I said I favor his mystical origin, and that it soulds like an error that would be easy to, well, write off as an error, not an intentional retcon. It wouldn't make sense to say all of Alpha are mutants... at all.

Flightpath07

07-08-2012, 02:17 AM

I said I favor his mystical origin, and that it soulds like an error that would be easy to, well, write off as an error, not an intentional retcon. It wouldn't make sense to say all of Alpha are mutants... at all.

Agreed.

cmdrkoenig67

07-18-2012, 05:04 AM

Mokole, Puck was squashed by magic in his original origin (ugh), but after he was freed of the demon sorcerer he was his full height...he was shrunk again later by the Master's technology...So he certainly qualifies as a mutated human.

Dana

cmdrkoenig67

07-18-2012, 05:06 AM

The writer appears to be using the term "mutant" for "mutated human", so a few of Alpha Flight certainly fit that description. Rick uses "mutant" in relation to himself (and the other Hulks) too, hence why I think he's using it in place of mutated human.

By the way...I'm really enjoying this story and loving Dale's artwork.

Dana

Le Messor

07-18-2012, 10:00 AM

The writer appears to be using the term "mutant" for "mutated human",

Hmm... the official Marvel term for a human mutated later in life is 'mutate', not 'mutant'.
eg: the Savage Land Mutates.

- Le Messor
"I'm not evil again. Why does everyone think that?"
~ Angel

Phil

07-18-2012, 01:13 PM

Let's not forget that Rick Jones is using the term, he's not exactly the smartest.

cmdrkoenig67

07-19-2012, 12:30 AM

LOL...Exactly Phil.

bigbloo

08-29-2012, 10:51 PM

Hulk 55 - All the people drained are basically dead except for Snowbird, this is due to the fact she is powered by the Inuit gods (Inua technically). So guess that means Sasquatch and the Great Beasts is either officially retconned or ignored. Also A-Bomb/Rick Jones says, "Alpha Flight, they're all mutants, aren't they? I mean, that's essentially what we are, but we're not....natural". Then Machine Man says Snowbird is not she is supernautral and doesnt mention the same for Sasquatch. So now Alpha Flight might be retconned to be mutants. Captain America phones team Rulk and mentions Puck has been constantly phoning him for updates. Aurora, Sasquatch and Snowbird are rescued and the rest of the team is going to be brought back to fight the Mayans

Just got issues 53-55!

Some really great art from Eaglsham here.

1. Agree on the Rick Jones making the comment reading. I think it's made out of ignorance and Machine Man's answer is kinda telling every non-AF fan reading the book "You think all of AF is mutants? Wrong!"
2. Since Snowbird seems to be recovering faster because she is a demigoddess, and Sas isn't. I therefor conclude that this writer believes that they are not powered by the same thing. On a side note, Snowbird can transform into the creature Sasquatch because Tanaraq's possession of Walter Langkowski happened in Canada, and therefore under her domain. Then doesn't this mean that any possession of a human by a Great Beast in Canada (for example Tundra's possession of her father) falls under the same category?
3. Sas powers two gods, but A-Bomb powers only one. Does this imply that Sas is made of two seperate entities? Or that Sas is more powerful? What exactly are the Mayan gods absorbing? Just physical strength and vitality? As opposed to "power". Maybe they cannot absorb magic or other forms of energy. So people in general including Snowbird have the same amount, and their potential to generate magic or other forms of energy are untouched?

-K-M-

08-29-2012, 11:08 PM

2. Sasquatch is still mystically powered. He's powered by Elder Gods of the Night afterall. Yes and no she has taken the form of Tundra, but she has taken the form of Neooqtoq the Ravager as well and we don't know if he had a human host.
3. Sasquatch is more powerful. They mentioned they were pretty shocked he could bring two while each She Hulk could only bring one. Well they eventually explain it in the new few issues so I won't spoil it as more goes on. The last issue of the story came out today (#57)

Le Messor

08-30-2012, 04:52 AM

1. Agree on the Rick Jones making the comment reading. I think it's made out of ignorance and Machine Man's answer is kinda telling every non-AF fan reading the book "You think all of AF is mutants? Wrong!"

Yes, that's a possible interpretation, one that works well.

Snowbird can transform into the creature Sasquatch because Tanaraq's possession of Walter Langkowski happened in Canada, and therefore under her domain. Then doesn't this mean that any possession of a human by a Great Beast in Canada (for example Tundra's possession of her father) falls under the same category?

I don't think that was about possession so much as creating a new creature (Sasquatch) by combining the two:

And though Walter Langkowski was no native of the north, the creature he created, the hybrig melding of himself and Tanaraq, was.
(#23).

3. Sas powers two gods, but A-Bomb powers only one. Does this imply that Sas is made of two seperate entities? Or that Sas is more powerful?

From some of the dialogue around it, I'd say it's just about having a lot of power.

she has taken the form of Tundra, but she has taken the form of Neooqtoq the Ravager as well

When was all that again? I'm thinking the Hearbreakers special?

- Le Messor
"In matters of conscience, the law of majority has no place."

-K-M-

08-30-2012, 04:04 PM

When was all that again? I'm thiking the Hearbreakers special?

- Le Messor
"In matters of conscience, the law of majority has no place."

Tundra was in Alpha Flight #8 (Vol.4), and Neooqtoq was in Incredible Hercules #119

Le Messor

08-30-2012, 04:27 PM

Thanks!

-K-M-

08-30-2012, 06:45 PM

She did take the form of Nanook, the God of Polar Bears in the Hearbreakers special though.

Flightpath07

08-30-2012, 07:57 PM

I enjoyed issue 57. Alpha at least played some importance and got a little more page-time.

-K-M-

09-04-2012, 07:30 PM

Yeah I liked it, and I dig the new Machine Man look. I even got Machine Man #1 so I'm a fan :)

Still didn't like how the Great Beasts origins were ignored though

cmdrkoenig67

09-10-2012, 04:14 PM

I really liked this story and it was nice to see Alpha back in the fight in the end.

Dana

Flightpath07

09-10-2012, 05:55 PM

There are some rumours circulating that Red She-Hulk comes about because Red Hulk dies.

Phil

09-10-2012, 06:03 PM

I've heard that Red Hulk's gonna lead the new Thunderbolts team/title...

Flightpath07

09-10-2012, 07:20 PM

I've heard that Red Hulk's gonna lead the new Thunderbolts team/title...

You could be right. The rumour I heard was somebody trying to explain why Red She Hulk gets her own title where she takes on all the Marvel heroes, which has been leaked somewhere; daddy being dead, made sense.

Phil

09-13-2012, 07:11 AM

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=40965

Booyah!

Way's work has been pretty solid in my opinion (forgetting the Hudson family tree part...) so I may pick this up to appease my loss of Uncanny X-Force. I'll definitely get #1...

Flightpath07

09-13-2012, 08:02 AM

Further, White teased the Thunderbolts roster will continue to grow with more characters to be revealed over the first few issues.

Captain America, Iron Man, Cyclops, Emma Frost, and Wolverine, anyone? lol.

Legerd

09-13-2012, 10:40 PM

Captain America, Iron Man, Cyclops, Emma Frost, and Wolverine, anyone? lol.

Don't forget Spider-man and Thor! Honestly, am I the only one getting tired of seeing the same faces recycled over and over? Aren't there a hundred other characters they could use?

Le Messor

09-14-2012, 06:31 AM

Don't forget Spider-man and Thor! Honestly, am I the only one getting tired of seeing the same faces recycled over and over?

You are not... a lot of people are.

- Le Messor
Willow, in the magic shop: "I feel like a witch in a magic shop."

Phil

09-14-2012, 06:54 AM

Le Messor

09-14-2012, 07:08 AM

Now I'm sad. :(

Phil

09-14-2012, 07:25 AM

Me and you both, buddy.

Flightpath07

09-14-2012, 07:34 AM

But are a lot of people?
Sales show that the majority of fans want these same faces.

Take Avengers pre-Wolverine & Spider-Man joining it and sales then to sales when they joined/now.
The majority of the comics buying public want/are happy with/settle for the norm.

Actually, Phil, I agree with you.

The problem isn't just one of Marvel consumers, it is one of consumers everywhere; people are sheep, they'll buy whatever they are told they need to have. Or whatever their neighbor buys. Tell somebody that something is "popular", whether it actually is or not, and people will rush out to spend their hard-earned dollars on it. People don't think for themselves anymore, which is why advertising is such a big business nowadays.

Which is all to say, i agree with you, Phil. I'm just not sure that sales alone are a true way of telling anybody how "good" a product actually is, as a good con-man can sell anything to anybody. There is a direct proportion between the stupidity (or gullibility) of the people, and the fat wallets of corporations.

And this is why i tend to defend (and support) the little, unknown guys. Not just in comics, but in movies as well. I stay away from name brands, and i stay as much away from advertisements as i can (i refuse to watch live television, due to the commercials); I like to make my own decisions, aside from what anybody else tells me.

Phil

09-14-2012, 07:50 AM

Everytime anyone agrees with me they're really surprised by it!
I'm not a complete tyrant; I just have business-mode wired into me :p

And yeah, I definitely agree; sales do not equal good.

Flightpath07

09-14-2012, 09:35 AM

And likewise, good does not equal sales. Its all about the marketing.

Which means, if Marvel decided, for instance, that they wanted to make Alpha Flight the next great thing, they could. They'd over-saturate the market with AF, put 'em in the movies, splash them up everywhere they can, have every interviewer mention them...and then hype the series like never before. They could do it. Its all about marketing. However, Marvel lives and dies by the X-Men and Avengers franchises, plus Wolverine and Cap and Tony and Spidey; they don't NEED a successful Alpha Flight.

Phil

09-14-2012, 10:12 AM

I wouldn't say it's all about the marketing.
If a product is bad enough no amount of marketing will help it.

Le Messor

09-14-2012, 05:02 PM

Tell somebody that something is "popular", whether it actually is or not, and people will rush out to spend their hard-earned dollars on it.

While I do fall for that a bit (if I keep hearing about something, I tend to watch / read / whatever it - but that doesn't mean I like it), I figured out a long time ago that there's no relationship between popularity and quality: there are good things that're popular, and bad things that're popular. There are good things that're unknown, and bad things that're unknown.
(Works in comics, TV, movies, music, etc...)

i refuse to watch live television, due to the commercials

Me, too! I've never even hooked up the arial in the 3-4 years I've lived in this house.

Everytime anyone agrees with me they're really surprised by it!

Well, not every time!

If a product is bad enough no amount of marketing will help it.

And yet, Akiva Goldsman can still find work.

Flightpath07

09-14-2012, 11:42 PM

Everytime anyone agrees with me they're really surprised by it!

Dang it! I agree with THIS, too!

Legerd

09-21-2012, 09:54 PM

But are a lot of people?
Sales show that the majority of fans want these same faces.

Take Avengers pre-Wolverine & Spider-Man joining it and sales then to sales when they joined/now.
The majority of the comics buying public want/are happy with/settle for the norm.

Even the amount of people online that vocalise any dislike of Marvel is a tiny percentage of the people who actually buy books, even in this day and age.

The fans want characters who are seen as being the biggest badasses going. This handful of characters are the ones who are always made the center of every story. Whatever they say or do has meaning, because the writers present them as major voices in the Marvel U. If you keep putting the same character at the heart of every event, and present him as the greatest thing since sliced bread people are going to keep wanting to see him. That's what happened with Wolverine. He started out as a throw away character in the Hulk. Then he was the dickish character who got his ass kicked constantly in the New X-men--where he was supposed to die. However, once he was fleshed out with a mysterious backstory, and written as the "best there is", he quickly became a fan favourite. Very few people will support a character seen as being a loser, but most people will back a winner. It's as simple as that.

AF has been damaged goods for a long time due to awful writing. For them to make a comeback they need to be presented as major heroes whose appearance in stories carries weight, rather than being there as punching bags to show how tough the villain is. It will be a slow, uphill journey to make them relevant in the eyes of readers, but it can be done if they are written with the same level of respect as is given to other heroes like Cap, Thor, Iron Man, etc.

Le Messor

09-22-2012, 12:42 AM

The fans want characters who are seen as being the biggest badasses going...

Maybe that's an American thing? There are parts of the world where humility is valued.
I find such characters distasteful. Always boasting and bragging, constantly the centre of attention and always 'the best' (a very ill-defined term here), it doesn't impress or interest me.

Sorry.

~ Le Messor
"The way to get things done is not to mind who gets the credit of doing them."
~ Benjamin Jowett

Flightpath07

09-22-2012, 12:45 AM

Legerd

09-23-2012, 09:41 AM

Maybe that's an American thing? There are parts of the world where humility is valued.
I find such characters distasteful. Always boasting and bragging, constantly the centre of attention and always 'the best' (a very ill-defined term here), it doesn't impress or interest me.

Sorry.

I didn't mean the best characters were the mouthiest and most arrogant, I meant that they were the ones who always were at the center of every big story being the ones who ultimately were bigger and badder than the villain. When they speak both the people in the MU and the readers accept what they say as being the final word. Thor, Iron Man and Captain America are all like this as well as Reed Richards and Nick Fury. To a lesser extent Spider-man, Wolverine and even Deadpool's words and actions are given more weight than most other characters. Why? Because they are written to be the best. They are the smartest, the strongest, the most powerful, the most flawless.
All I'm saying is AF needs a little of that kind of love from the writers.

Flightpath07

09-23-2012, 12:21 PM

All I'm saying is AF needs a little of that kind of love from the writers.

So, here is the age-old debate; is it Quality Before Quantity, or Quantity Before Quality?

Do they get written like "badasses" and at the middle of all events and as somebodies whom others listen to, BEFORE they get pushed into that role by blossoming sales? Or do the sales come first? Do we get Quality of Writing first, or Quantity of Sales first?

Feel free to discuss. "Talk amongst yourselves; I'm a little verklempt."

Legerd

09-23-2012, 04:32 PM

So, here is the age-old debate; is it Quality Before Quantity, or Quantity Before Quality?

There's no age-old debate, they have to be written like that so they will have blossoming sales. You won't get Quantity until you have Quality. Not enough people are reading AF since most readers think they are a joke. How do you solve that? Simple, put them in some guest appearances and events where they play a major role, eventually they will be taken seriously by the readers.

I think you're getting hung up on my use of the term "badass". All I mean is a competent hero who can handle whatever situation he finds himself in, is confident of his abilities and who other heroes will listen to. There doesn't need to be any arrogance, or lack of humility. Check out the first part of this link (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bad-ass) for what I'm talking about.

Le Messor

09-23-2012, 04:41 PM

When they speak both the people in the MU and the readers accept what they say as being the final word. Thor, Iron Man and Captain America are all like this as well as Reed Richards and Nick Fury. To a lesser extent Spider-man, Wolverine and even Deadpool...

I didn't mean the best characters were the mouthiest and most arrogant,

No, I'm sure you didn't, but they often seem to end up that way, don't they? I mean, I wouldn't go as far as 'arrogant' - especially since, as you point out, they can back up their boasts... but I don't always feel like 'my' characters have to be the centre of the universe. I don't always feel like they have to be the best there is at what they do.
As long as they get the job done.
Frankly, I relate better to clumsy people who are up the back and don't feel like the world revolves around them.

I noticed particularly in the Infinity story where they fought Her; at least two of the crossover books I read had one character who was 'the only one who really knew what was going on' (which wasn't particularly obscure in the first place). Ours was one of the villains... Karcass?
I soon realised it was an attempt to manipulate us - readers of this small book could feel proud of their characters, making us want to buy more comics.

It was one thing I could never quite stand about Claremont's writing; all his characters were 'the best' (again, a vague, undefined term in the context).

Mannnn, this post is so long it's getting answered while I type it.
I started the next part before Legerd posted this:

All I mean is a competent hero who can handle whatever situation he finds himself in, is confident of his abilities and who other heroes will listen to.

On the other hand...
You are right in that it'd help Alpha a lot if they could sometimes be seen as 'doing something' (another ill-defined term that gets thrown around a lot). If they contributed in a meaningful way to all the crossovers they get thrown into. If they solved a crisis or two. It'd help them, it might even help the MU as a whole - so it wouldn't always be 'Crisis? Call Richards. Crisis over.' 'We're stranded in a pocket universe with Stark and Potts, Captain America, Mary-Jane, Gwen Stacey, and Gilligan. Well, the Professor will solve it, snap of fingers.'

It'd diversify the characters and the crossovers. I agree with you there.

Also, Legerd, just the other day I was wondering if 'being cool' was still a thing people cared about / strived for. The definition you linked to changed the word, but the meaning remains the same, I think.
Or the song remains the same.
(The other day I also bought a bunch of Led Zeppelin at a charity sale.)

~ Le Messor
"Institute: An archaic school where football is not taught."

Legerd

09-27-2012, 02:46 PM

No, I'm sure you didn't, but they often seem to end up that way, don't they? I mean, I wouldn't go as far as 'arrogant' - especially since, as you point out, they can back up their boasts... but I don't always feel like 'my' characters have to be the centre of the universe. I don't always feel like they have to be the best there is at what they do.
As long as they get the job done.
Frankly, I relate better to clumsy people who are up the back and don't feel like the world revolves around them.

I noticed particularly in the Infinity story where they fought Her; at least two of the crossover books I read had one character who was 'the only one who really knew what was going on' (which wasn't particularly obscure in the first place). Ours was one of the villains... Karcass?
I soon realised it was an attempt to manipulate us - readers of this small book could feel proud of their characters, making us want to buy more comics.

It was one thing I could never quite stand about Claremont's writing; all his characters were 'the best' (again, a vague, undefined term in the context).

I never said AF had to be the best of the best, I'm just saying that is why the biggest characters in Marvel are the biggest characters in Marvel. They are the smartest, strongest, most skilled, most powerful, wittiest, etc. What the writers need to do is write AF as being at least more than competent. You may like clumsy characters (hell, I love flawed characters myself), but today those kinds of characters don't draw a large following, or they get changed (like Wolverine) to being "the best". Readers want heroes who remain cool under fire, not ones who fall apart when the situation gets rough.

On the other hand...
You are right in that it'd help Alpha a lot if they could sometimes be seen as 'doing something' (another ill-defined term that gets thrown around a lot). If they contributed in a meaningful way to all the crossovers they get thrown into. If they solved a crisis or two. It'd help them, it might even help the MU as a whole - so it wouldn't always be 'Crisis? Call Richards. Crisis over.' 'We're stranded in a pocket universe with Stark and Potts, Captain America, Mary-Jane, Gwen Stacey, and Gilligan. Well, the Professor will solve it, snap of fingers.'

It'd diversify the characters and the crossovers. I agree with you there.

Also, Legerd, just the other day I was wondering if 'being cool' was still a thing people cared about / strived for...

When I say "doing something" it's out of sheer frustration that whenever AF shows up they invariably become cannon fodder so the villain looks tougher, and when the Avengers, X-men, or FF come in to save the day they look better for it. "Doing something" means "doing anything" rather than being a punching bag. Like you said, if the team could solve the crisis for a change rather than the "A-Listers" saving the day yet again, it would help the characters score some points with the readers. That could also lead to garnering more fans for an ongoing. They don't have to be perfect, but if they could be the ones to win the fight that would be cool.
And people still desire to be "cool" even if that's not the word they use to describe it. "Slick", "badass", "ace", "skilled", whatever, it's all the same thing and the majority of people want to be it--not everyone perhaps, but most everyone. More importantly in this case, they want their heroes to be it.

Le Messor

09-27-2012, 04:29 PM

I never said AF had to be the best of the best, I'm just saying that is why the biggest characters in Marvel are the biggest characters in Marvel. They are the smartest, strongest, most skilled, most powerful, wittiest, etc.

Yep, I understand.

IYou may like clumsy characters (hell, I love flawed characters myself), but today those kinds of characters don't draw a large following.

Well, the picture that keeps going through my head when I'm saying that is Spider-Man.

When I say "doing something"

I thought I'd said that, not you... (And then accused myself of being vague.)

They don't have to be perfect, but if they could be the ones to win the fight that would be cool.
And people still desire to be "cool" even if that's not the word they use to describe it.

I think at this stage, we're on the same page.
And this time, it's in the same book.

~ Le Messor
"Individualists unite!"