New Alpha Flight ongoing - "We'll do it again"

[rplass]

Over at comicbookresources.com, in an interview with Alex Alonso (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=40797), Marvel's EIC, a tiny tidbit of hope for AF fans:


And how many people asked you if there was going to be an "Alpha Flight" book in Marvel NOW!?

Alonso: [Laughs] They always ask about Alpha Flight in Canada. Always. [Senior Editor] Steve Wacker, in fact, infiltrated the audience at the X-Men panel and chided us for not having an "Alpha Flight" ongoing.

Well, at least they know there's someone on staff speaking up on their behalf.

Alonso: At least we know who's going to edit it. We'll do it again. We need to find the right pitch and pick the right time.



OK, that's good news!

[-K-M-]

Oh that's very good news :)

[Sypes]

As I said before, I would be totallllllllllllllllllllllly happy with an annual 8 issue serie just like we had. At least we'd get some character growth!

[Flightpath07]

Cool. When they do it, I'll come back to Marvel. Until then, the only Marvel attachment I have is "Wolverine and the X-Men".

[Le Messor]

[Senior Editor] Steve Wacker, in fact, infiltrated the audience at the X-Men panel and chided us for not having an "Alpha Flight" ongoing.

I like that. Kind of 'cute' and funny.


We need to find the right pitch...

That... not so much. In the past, the right pitch has usually been, 'Let's do something that has nothing to do with Alpha Flight!'.
Let's hope we get a good Alpha Flight series that has Alpha Flight in it!

- Le Messor
"In most instances, all an argument proves is that two people are present."

[Flightpath07]

In the past, the right pitch has usually been, 'Let's do something that has nothing to do with Alpha Flight!'.
Let's hope we get a good Alpha Flight series that has Alpha Flight in it!

It worries me that, with all the change going on, renumbering of titles, changing of creative teams, changing of who is on what titles as far as characters, with everything at Marvel having been affected by AvsX, that they COULDN'T come up with a pitch for a new AF.

It would have been the perfect time to do so.

[Phil]

Yeah, but it comes down to the writers more than the company.

Marvel can't force a creator to write an AF title; they have to want to AND be able to write something that will sell. That's easier said than done, as evidenced by the last three attempts.

[Le Messor]

Yeah, but it comes down to the writers more than the company.
Marvel can't force a creator to write an AF title; they have to want to AND be able to write something that will sell. That's easier said than done, as evidenced by the last three attempts.

True.

We got a pitch, Pitch Too: Electric Boogaloo, Pitch 3: Attack Of The Clowns, Pitch Not Quite Even In Name, and Son of a Pitch.

I do kinda wonder what the pitch was for volume 4: 'An Alpha Flight series, only this time, we put Alpha Flight in it!'? :D

The question is, how do they do it? Write something that sells?

- Le Messor
"In order to be, never try to seem."

[Flightpath07]

How about Pitch Black?

Johns: You said it was clear!
Riddick: I said it *looked* clear.
Johns: Well, how does it look now?
Riddick: Looks clear.

Or, to paraphrase;

Does it look like this Alpha Flight will sell?
It'll sell.
I thought you said that last one would sell! How do you think this one'll do?
Looks like it'll sell.

[cmdrkoenig67]

We know of some writers who'd like to do more Alpha Flight, our pals Fred and Greg and a talented artist named Dale...I wish that they'd make another pitch for a mini or maxi.

Dana

[Phil]

With the poor sales on the last volume I doubt they'll get a second go round...

[Flightpath07]

With the poor sales on the last volume I doubt they'll get a second go round...

I agree, Phil. It's unfortunate that those who love Flight, won't get another chance.

Maybe next time it'll be Jim McCann, who brought 'em back from death?

[Mokole]

Maybe one with more action will fit the bill.

[Flightpath07]

It'd be nice to have the next one make it to 12 issues, so we can have "the cover" again.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

When # 1 of volume 4 came out and the finished product was slightly different from the preview version [clear indication that it was Attuma in the preview; changed to "Nerkkod" in published form: deprived Marrina's antagonism from having the appropriate meaning it should have without rehashing a whole lot of ancient history], it did not bode well. The first 10-to-12 pages flowed very well, then...it seemed like tinkering made the rest of the book feel all-over-the-place.

BTW, this is a(nother) good reason to do the premiere issue of an ALPHA FLIGHT series as a bona fide double-sized issue: with at least eight main characters, conflict, and (hopefully) character development, trying to squeeze all of that into 20-to-22 pages is counter-productive. Pull out all the stops in a well-executed double-sized premiere issue, and if it doesn't get a following after that...well, then people can say Alpha Flight won't ever sell.

No need to beat a dead horse, but it is interesting that the limited series was heading for on-going status until Heather took her deadly turn in AF # 4 (vol. 4). Before someone reminds me that Heather used deadly force in the 1st volume, it was during the Mantlo era...which (to put it as politely as I can) was inconsistent and implausible.

[Le Messor]

Pull out all the stops in a well-executed double-sized premiere issue, and if it doesn't get a following after that...well, then people can say Alpha Flight won't ever sell.

As others have been saying, add to that an absolute guarantee that it'll go a certain number of issues (say, 24-25; 50?) and then you could say that.
Hmm... maybe that'd be a better relaunch; instead of 'We're taking all our books off the market, and releasing a bunch of Avengers and X-Men... okay, some Spidey and FF, too...' how 'bout 'We're launching a variety of titles, old favourites and new series, each guaranteed* to last 25 issues! If you keep reading, even longer! Our writers have plotted out 25-issue arcs!'

(That may be one of the reasons for DC's success - they at least did a variety of titles.)
Oh, but make it a manageable number... maybe about 26, not 52!

* except in Minnesota

- Le Messor
"In the event of a sudden loss of cabin pressure, masks will descend from the ceiling. Stop screaming, grab the mask, and pull it over your face. If you have a small child traveling with you, secure your mask before assisting with theirs. If you are traveling with more than one small child ... pick your favorite."

[Flightpath07]

instead of 'We're taking all our books off the market, and releasing a bunch of Avengers and X-Men... okay, some Spidey and FF, too...' how 'bout 'We're launching a variety of titles, old favourites and new series...'


Oh, but make it a manageable number... maybe about 26, not 52!

By my calculations, with one Fantastic Four, one FF, 4 Spiderman (Amazing, Spectacular, Grumpy, and Sleepy), 1 Scarlet Spider, one Blue And Gold And Purple Spiderguy, one Venomous Spider, one Peter Parker Spider, one Fantastic Four That Is Neither Fantastic Nor Really Four (aka Fantastic Four For The Fantastic Four Hating and Arithmetically Challenged Public), 9 different Avengers titles (Super-Duper-Sized Avengers; Avenging Avengers; Avengers That Avenge The Avenging Avengers; Avengers With Nothing To Avenge; X-Men Light Avengers; X-Avengers; Almost-Avengers; The Cap and Tony Avengers; Avengers That Tie Into This Month's Big Event; Solo Avengers [aka Jimi Hendrix Avengers]; Marvel Movie Avengers), and 6 X-Men (All Different X-Men; All New X-Men; No Really This Is A VERY Different X-Men; Really Old But Not X-Men; Funny Ha Ha X-Men; Deadly Serious X-Men)...where oh where would an Alpha Flight Volume 5 fit in?!

[Phil]

I predict we'll get something with Alpha Flight at some point over the next year... probably by some Rising Star such as Cullen Bunn...

[Le Messor]

I predict we'll get something with Alpha Flight at some point over the next year... probably by some Rising Star such as Cullen Bunn...

I don't know him, but if he's anything like Edward Cullen, that can't go well...

- Le Messor
"And then Buffy staked Edward.
The end."
~ t-shirt

[Flightpath07]

I don't know him, but if he's anything like Edward Cullen, that can't go well...

As long as the whiny chick gets it in the end, I'll be happy.

Wait; I'll be even happier if she gets it PRIOR to the series starting.

[Sypes]

I'd totally be ok to pay for a 12 issue run upfront if it happened. But please dear God & Marvel, make sure you get a descend drawing artist and colorer!

[Flightpath07]

I'd totally be ok to pay for a 12 issue run upfront if it happened. But please dear God & Marvel, make sure you get a descend drawing artist and colorer!
I'll agree with that last part, Sypes. In fact, I think the (possibly) only way we are going to get an ongoing AF title, is if JB does it.

[Phil]

Hmm.. doubtful... he hasn't got as many fans these days as you'd think...

[Le Messor]

Marvel, make sure you get a descend drawing artist and colorer!

Yes, please! A slightly realistic artist, with a lot of detail; and a colourist who's been outside. You know, ever. And can put more than two colours on *gasp* the same page!



I'll agree with that last part, Sypes. In fact, I think the (possibly) only way we are going to get an ongoing AF title, is if JB does it.
Hmm.. doubtful... he hasn't got as many fans these days as you'd think...

Also, he isn't what he was. I'd love it if we could get 1984 JB on it again, but these days?
Trio isn't about telling stories, the way AF was, or UXM (when he and Claremont had it), or F4... it's just one long, drawn-out battle. With every idea / character taken from F4.

- Le Messor
"In the matters of grave importance, style, not sincerity, is the vital thing."
~ Oscar Wilde

[Flightpath07]

I'm enjoying Trio, for what it is.

But, my comment about JB, was more about the hype that having him doing AF would garnish for the series. I'm trying not to be a pessimist (can anybody tell?), but I have fought a losing battle with trying not to be a realist; even with all us AF fans here buying multiple copies of any new AF that comes out, there just isn't enough fan interest in Flight for it to sell.

Oh Lord, I think i just agreed with what Phil has been saying about sales for so long!

[Legerd]

IMHO, Marvel has to use AF more before giving them another title shot. The reason I think the fourth series failed was because so few people knew or cared about them. Put them in some more guest starring roles where they actually do something to help fight the big bad so new fans get to know and appreciate them. As it is most readers today are probably too young to have read the 90's stories let alone the original Byrne books. More than likely the only clue they have about the team is the horrible crap like Avengers #16.

[Phil]

But, my comment about JB, was more about the hype that having him doing AF would garnish for the series.
I don't think there'd be much hype unfortunately.
It's like how Claremont books don't sell.
A Bendis AF book would sell, a Byrne wouldn't.

To be fair, I think the only way we'd get a strong enough selling AF book would be with Alan Moore or Neil Gaiman writing it.


even with all us AF fans here buying multiple copies of any new AF that comes out, there just isn't enough fan interest in Flight for it to sell.

Oh Lord, I think i just agreed with what Phil has been saying about sales for so long!

:shock:

[Phil]

As it is most readers today are probably too young to have read the 90's stories let alone the original Byrne books. More than likely the only clue they have about the team is the horrible crap like Avengers #16.
Or worse... Volume 3....

[Le Messor]

To be fair, I think the only way we'd get a strong enough selling AF book would be with Alan Moore... writing it.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't even joke about tha! Yuck!

Anyway, you're probably right, that John Byrne wouldn't be a draw card anymore.
(Though that drawcard that he isn't is probably one of the best shots it has.)

- Le Messor
"In the stairway of life, you'd best take the elevator."

[Flightpath07]

To be fair, I think the only way we'd get a strong enough selling AF book would be with Alan Moore or Neil Gaiman writing it

And people here complained that Volume Two wasn't really Alpha Flight...I'm thinking anything AF that those two touched (and no offense meant to their talents) would not resemble Alpha Flight in the least.

Which was the point you were making, I believe?

[Phil]

I honestly think at the moment that the best way to get a slightly longer, more stable series would be to have AF majorly involved in and important to an event.
Not like they were in Fear Itself or Chaos War, but more akin to the old Infinity War and have the team in the thick of things in the main miniseries itself.
It'd raise awareness, and give more importance to the team, as long as they're written respectfully.

[Phil]

And people here complained that Volume Two wasn't really Alpha Flight...I'm thinking anything AF that those two touched (and no offense meant to their talents) would not resemble Alpha Flight in the least.

Which was the point you were making, I believe?

To an extent.
Both can do traditional superhero stories if they want to, though.

My point was more that it'll take a superstar, guaranteed sales Direct Market and bookstores, creator to get AF noticed.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I don't know if MARVEL gives creative teams (or individual writers/artists/letterers) a second chance at the characters (although I see Dale has been able to utilize AF in the Red Hulk arc he's doing), and I know people don't think that John Byrne has the "star-power" he once did, but his storytelling skills are still better-than-average and his commitment to the craftsmenship of telling stories is still better-than-average. Where most of what I've read seems geared to be collected into a tradepaperback, regardless of how ridiculous the storyline/arc, there are still some creators who put the emphasis on beginning-middle-and-end storytelling...even in the context of an on-going series.

To do it extremely well, a series has to be plotted and thought-out, which is what happened with volume 1. Even though it deviated from the original course laid out in Amazing Heroes # 22, the original run had a vision and a direction.

Some of the seasoned creators may or may not want to take a shot, but Walt Simonson would be an interesting person to work on Alpha Flight. Jim McCann has earned another shot at writing the team, IMO. The one-shot artist Brown...with the new-school bleed-off-the-page blended with old-school borders...did an admirable rendition. The colorist and the letterer for volume 3 were on point. BTW composition and placement of word balloons should be a high priority for any new ALPHA FLIGHT book.

Lastly, as I've suggested umpteen times before, a 7-times-a-year book [giving the creator(s) time to put a little extra effort into it] with a bona fide double-size premiere issue, and maybe an AMAZING HEROES/MARVEL AGE-type preview* right before the relaunch...just might produce a solid, well-executed, plausible run.

* Is the Comics Buyer Guide still in publication?

[Le Messor]

I don't know if MARVEL gives creative teams (or individual writers/artists/letterers) a second chance... John Byrne...

I think they do - Peter David and X-Factor, anyone? - but I don't think that's the issue here.
Here's it's a question of, would Marvel give John Byrne a second chance? Would John Byrne give Marvel a second chance? Would John Byrne give Alpha Flight a second chance?

I think the answer to the first is 'yes'(?), and the second 'no', and the third 'NO!!!!!'.

In all his career, John Byrne has only returned (for a run) to one book, that I'm aware of. (She Hulk, ftr)
He never liked / wanted to be on Alpha Flight in the first place.

And he seems to loathe Marvel now. Won't even say the company's name (s'rously, in his posts at Robotics, he posts 'M*****l' - or has on the few times I've peeked in).


To do it extremely well, a series has to be plotted and thought-out, which is what happened with volume 1. Even though it deviated from the original course laid out in Amazing Heroes # 22, the original run had a vision and a direction.

That's a reference to an interview with JB, right?

- Le Messor
"In the state of Kansas, mules are not allowed to be used for duck hunting."

[Jason Eberly]

JB returned to doing Next Men, returned to do a run on art duties of Action Comics around the time of Infinite Crisis, drew Avengers in the late 70's and wrote them in the late 80's, did Incredible Hulk in the mid 80's then again the first time the title relaunched in 1999 or so, so it's not unprecedented...

[Le Messor]

JB returned to doing Next Men, returned to do a run on art duties of Action Comics around the time of Infinite Crisis, drew Avengers in the late 70's and wrote them in the late 80's, did Incredible Hulk in the mid 80's then again the first time the title relaunched in 1999 or so, so it's not unprecedented...

... so more than one, then?

(I actually knew about Next Men, so I have no excuse - but not the others.)

~ Le Messor
"Many ideas grow better when transplanted into another mind than the one where they sprang up."
~ Oliver Wendall Holmes

[EccentricSage]

What they need is to stop being gimmicky and just work on actual good story telling and believable character development. Figure out what is awesome about the characters, and then construct a story that brings that out more. Address poor Vindicator's situation, my gods, these characters deserve better than the treatment they've been getting, and v4 wasn't any big help, IMO!

And get Madison back into the thick of it somehow? Alpha was his home, his family. They inspired him to be something, to do something with his powers. He needs that. Bring the fight out in him again! Address all this mind washing and memory wiping bull**** that has been done to most of these characters in the recent past. I don't see how any of these characters can really effectively been worked with until a writer with some vision who actually liked AF v1 retcons some of this **** and ties up some loose ends so that these characters can function again. I'm not happy to have Mac back at the loss of Heather, ether.

If we're ever going to have more than a crappy mini or maxi, **** needs to be sorted out and made sense of.

I know there's no hope of getting Wildchild in an AF book, thanks to Loeb, Marvel's favorite pet writer who gets to do whatever he pleases no matter how asinine. I don't think I'd want to see Alpha tied into Loeb's Lupine plot any further.

[Phil]

The problem is that it's gimmicks that work.

The old school comic reader is slowly dying out. Independent LCS's are closing down all the time. People who once were readers are having to sell their collections and stop buying, just to keep up with the economic climate.

The new generation of comic book buyers look at comics as a quick disposable form of entertainment. They'll want to download a comic for 99c, read it once and then never read it again, out of boredom. A quick fix.
Or they'll buy a done-in-one trade from a bookstore. No dangling plotlines, no previous issue boxes.
They don't want 70 years of continuity. They don't care about past characterization.
And it's a gimmick that gets attention.

And comic companies as businesses are leaning towards this in preparation.

The matter is finding a medium between new fans and old fans.

To throw Madison back into AF now would confuse a whole generation of readers. He's not essential to the team, so if he's being written well elsewhere, so be it.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

The problem is that it's gimmicks that work.

[Nerrkod and the company-spanning event that spawned him will probably be forgotten within 5 years, whereas Attuma will remain a fixture of the MARVEL pantheon. G/A-F]

The old school comic reader is slowly dying out. Independent LCS's are closing down all the time. People who once were readers are having to sell their collections and stop buying, just to keep up with the economic climate.

Avengers[/U]/original Squadron Sinister books in '11; still hurts.]

The new generation of comic book buyers look at comics as a quick disposable form of entertainment. They'll want to download a comic for 99c, read it once and then never read it again, out of boredom. A quick fix.
Or they'll buy a done-in-one trade from a bookstore. No dangling plotlines, no previous issue boxes.
They don't want 70 years of continuity. They don't care about past characterization.
And it's a gimmick that gets attention.

[[I]I don't want 70 years of "continuity"....especially Alpha Flight continuity. There still has to be a way to do it contemporary yet keep the basic characters recognizable. I do care about past characterization...and plausibility.]

And comic companies as businesses are leaning towards this in preparation.

[I wish them good luck. Brian Bendis may be the big-name star that might guarantee gigantic sales, but who really wants a canon-setting 20-to-25 issue run (at $2.99 to $3.99)?]

The matter is finding a medium between new fans and old fans.

To throw Madison back into AF now would confuse a whole generation of readers. He's not essential to the team, so if he's being written well elsewhere, so be it.

Madison isn't essential to the team. Freckle-faced Heather killing her cousins needs to dealt with. The brain-washing stuff needs to be dealt with. Original Omega Flight getting arrested (presumably) in the United States (vol. 1 # 13) and Canada needs to be addressed. I could go on...

[Flightpath07]

I could go on...

Heck, you're on a roll, and you have me riveted; why stop? Or should we just start a new Thread?

[EccentricSage]

"Madison isn't essential to the team"

So what? If you ask me, this is a kind of snobbery in the AF fandom that doesn't help. Team line ups in other more consistently successful books get shaken up all the time, and the fans don't automatically 'quit' because one character they're less familiar with 'confuses them'. There is no 'essential team'. If you ask me, if anything will prevent new fans from connecting with AF, it's insisting that the team be Byrne's AF, the way Byrne set them up, written the way we think Byrne would write them, decades after Byrne left AF v1. (Not to mention, Byrne was the one who established how important AF was to Madison) Maybe Madison Jeffries isn't YOUR favorite Alphan, but he has exposure in the MU and has a ton of untapped potential and unique powers. Give me a good reason he can't fit in with the team.

As for him being well written elsewhere, is he? I hadn't noticed. *sarcasm*

I agree about Heather needing to be top priority right now. As for 70 issues of continuity, I'm saying retcon some of the wrinkles out along the way, not dwell on every hickup in their continuity in every issue. I really can not enjoy books with unaddressed continuity issues, I can't suspend my disbelief, it's a deal breaker for me. But when a writer fixes something we hated in the process of telling a story, said writer gains a new fan, for sure.

At least the brainwashing in the Omega Flight story arc from V1 made some semblance of sense. Courtney didn't just magically make them do her/his/it's bidding like so many villains later on did, nor cause their personality to change completely. Courtney exploited mentally and emotionally fragile heroes in training during their time of need, and then simply enhanced that reaction they had to being thrown out of the Flight program. Each character was still themselves, but would they have still turned to villainy without the extra push from the behavior modifying technology? We'll never know, and that grey area made Omega Flight more compelling than say, the Weapon X villainous mind washing from the early 2000s, or the Master's ability in v4 to make people his obedient drones. So in short, I'm ok with Byrne's 'brainwashing' because it wasn't even completely brain washing, if that makes any sense. But man, how many characters from AF have been brainwashed/mind controlled, in many cases more than once, now? I just think that kind of has to be addressed if Heather's going to be saved from what Master did to her.

Now, Madison Jeffries is just that guy in the corner who tinkers with tech for other people right now... not much of importance is being done with him, we're lucky he's been useful enough not to be treated as cannon fodder like poor Lil. I think it's time for him to hear about Mac being back and what happened to Heather, a former flame of his, and find his passions for being a hero reignited. See him say '**** you' to all the people using him as a freaking tool, and rush off to try to help people who were once there for him. I think hearing about the horror of Heather's mind control victimization would really do it. He's been there, he knows what that's like. Hell, you could potentially even have a stand off between Madison Jeffries, a guy who can control technology with his mind, and Mac, who relied on a technological suit to have any powers. Can you imagine the epic cliff hanger a good writer could build up to? The character development, the drama, the action, seeing the powerful rendered powerless at the hands of a man who's been a nobody for a long while now. That moment where the readers hold their breath and wonder if Madison is even sane, god, throw some PTSD in there, goodness knows Madison's trauma needs to be dealt with. I wouldn't want him to kill Mac, personally, but imagine that narrative!

[Le Messor]

The problem is that it's gimmicks that work.

You know it's sad but true. I, I'm your life, I'm the one who drags you there... (sorry, I'd rather listen to Metallica badly remembered than comics gimmicks.)


The new generation of comic book buyers look at comics as a quick disposable form of entertainment. They'll want to download a comic for 99c, read it once and then never read it again, out of boredom. A quick fix.

So, we're back to how they were when originally created?


"Madison isn't essential to the team"
... this is a kind of snobbery in the AF fandom that doesn't help.

That's not what I got out of Garry's post at all.


At least the brainwashing in the Omega Flight story arc from V1 made some semblance of sense...

Edited for space, but I agree there.
The only thing that let it down was that it was so low-key that people forgot - or never realised - that it happened.

~ Le Messor
"In these matters the only certainty is that nothing is certain."
~ Pliny the Elder

[EccentricSage]

Le Messor, it's old Metallica, so I'm totally down with that. lol

You know, a story will always need a hook. There has to be something to draw readers in, weather they know anything about the characters or writer or not. It's all in the execution, weather it works, or is completely transparent for the cynical gimmick it could well be. A good creative team in any medium should be able to present the prospective reader with a comprehensible narrative and some sort of visceral reaction that leaves them wanting to know more. I think in all honesty, Marvel needs to tread carefully that fine line. I for one did not quit their product for monetary reasons, rather, their product went to ****. I know many others who felt the same in the late 90 into the early 00's. I think more new readers are opening up to the idea of comics, but they will get bored and won't stick around if they just keep getting the same predictable pattern over and over again.

Phil, I might look into the digital releases myself, because $4 for a 23 page comic is ****ing ridiculous. There are series I want to read now, but they are pricing me out. Digital art is nothing new to me anyhow, as much as I enjoy hard copies. And if the book I start reading turns into a predictable cycle of the same **** I've seen a million times before, you better believe I've got better things to do with that $.99 per book. I really can't see comics at these high prices as disposable entertainment.

As to the bit about weather or not it's snobbery to claim there is a 'core team' that does not need other AF characters... how is that NOT snobbish? Who gets to decide which characters are important and which ones aren't? All that should matter is what a writer can do with them, and weather or not it's done well. These are all Alphans we're talking about, not just Mac's first pick of A listers from the start of V1!

"The only thing that let it down was that it was so low-key that people forgot - or never realised - that it happened."

I agree. I've said it before, and I'll say it again; I'm really disappointed that Byrne didn't invest more in those characters. He had great character designs and a great idea for a story which built a compelling narrative not just for the heroes, but the villains... and then he just kind of gave up and didn't want to do it anymore, never bothered to go any further into it. Who was it who said it seemed like Byrne wrote AF as a sort of Maxi series with an intended end, again? Because I thought that was apt, though depressing.

[Le Messor]

Le Messor, it's old Metallica, so I'm totally down with that. lol

:)


I for one did not quit their product for monetary reasons, rather, their product went to ****. I know many others who felt the same in the late 90 into the early 00's.

Ah, yes, the time period when I, as a Marvel reader who wanted to wet my toes in the DC pool just to branch out a bit, started saying, 'I couldn't get myself to read DC. DC couldn't get me to read DC... but Marvel? They got me to read DC.'

That happened.


As to the bit about weather or not it's snobbery to claim there is a 'core team' that does not need other AF characters... how is that NOT snobbish?

Well, I felt (and since I wasn't the OP on this one, this is just my interpretation) that the attitude behind it was CLOSER TO a giving up model than a 'this is who should be on the team, this is not'. ie: 'If putting Madison on the team makes things too difficult to get a book going, don't bother.'

That's why I felt the attitude behind that comment wasn't snobbish.

~ Le Messor
"We can build upon foundations everywhere, if they are well and truly laid."
~ Ivy Compton-Burnett

[Flightpath07]

I liked Byrne's Madison Jeffries.

I DIDN'T like him as written by other AF writers.

For ME, Madison isn't an essential AF'er, because most people who think of AF do not think of him (outside of those on this site, most people would not even realize that he WAS in AF). Therefore, most people wouldn't see having him in AF as any sort of priority, and those who only know him from his (mainly) background shots in X-Men (ie. getting knocked out, again) would probably be more confused than excited if a new AF series came out with him in it.

It's not a knock on the character, per se. As I said to start this, I liked the character, as JB wrote him. What i did not like, is that we were forced into him as co-leader of the team, that we were forced to accept his relationship with Heather, and that he became a freakin' SPACE SHIP and took AF into space for some of their possibly LAMEST adventures EVER (my personal opinion, of course).

I don't like what Madison BECAME in AF. For that reason, I'd rather see him stay where he is.

[EccentricSage]

I'm more interested in what he could be, than what he has been, and I never suggested he should co-lead anything. Once again, I reject this 'there is only one Alpha Flight team' BS. And frankly I'm a little pissed off that people think that way, good luck getting an ongoing with a team you apparently expect to remain static! V4 had the 'core team', and if you ask me, it was utter crap, the team does not make the book, it's what people do with them. It doesn't matter that many wouldn't be that excited over Madison's appearing in Alpha again, IF you are even right about that. I mean, you hardly know all AF readers. The people who actually post on this site are a mere handful.

All that would matter is what role he could play and whether or not he's written well, just like any of the characters. I swear, AF fandom must be the only fandom where people honestly seem to think that side characters had no fans, or that having any characters besides the 'classic core team' is some huge detriment that will some how warn prospective readers away. I have news for everyone, Byrne isn't coming back, and if he did, he probably wouldn't write them the way you want, we probably wouldn't have this unchanging 'core team' everyone keeps talking about.

Flightpath, you of all people should understand my POV, being a fellow fan of a side character, a character who was almost a nobody in Byrne's precious run. Wildchild wasn't an 'essential AFer' ether.

What really gets me about AF fans on this forum, is everyone clamors for these side characters to make appearances in other books, and seem disappointed when they are killed off or portrayed badly, as Marvel is so clearly besmirching all that is Alpha Flight. But then when there's talk of a new series, nothing is good enough short of a rigid line up of characters who have to be on the same team, for the same purpose, no new characters will be tolerated, and god forbid former team members who weren't on Byrne's original roster rejoin. You all might want to try and let go, just sayn'.

Welp, I'm off before I say anything too mean, as I do like you folks, but seriously, we'll never have AF as anything but an old timey novelty brought back to sell issue #1 variants, at this rate.

[Phil]

Speaking for myself, I want Wyre, Windshear and Earthmover in the team.
I don't want the 'static' 'core team' that you're on about.
I don't want Byrne back.
However, I fully admit that they too aren't essential and don't expect them to be in the book, just because I like them.

My point was merely to throw Madison into AF just because thats where he was from originally would be forced and therefore a bad story.
As I've said before, AF made no effort to rescue him from The Zodiac, or from Weapon X, or made any contact with him after he joined the X-Men; why would he even want to be back in the team? But hey; he can jump back into bed with Heather again now Lil's dead and her and Mac are split - let's re-hash that story.

I really like him in X-Club.
He's written well there.

As I said; he's not essential to AF.
The only person/people essential to AF, in my mind anayway, are either Guardian or Vindicator.
The team NEEDS one of the two, draped in the flag. To me that's part of the reason Vol 3 failed.
Anyone else isn't essential; even Sasquatch & Puck - and I love those characters.
Far from snobbery, far from elitism, far from fear of anything other than Byrne.
My opinion, based on my logic and my reason.

And again, I liked Wildchild in X-Factor and hell, I like him as a villain to Wolverine. Yeah, the Romulus connection's a bit tenuous... but at least it got him his powers back (or a new, different set) after the M-day thing and got him out of limbo.

I'd like to see him in the pages of an AF title, but as a villain rather than on the team.
Again, not out of snobbery or anything. As with Madison, I don't consider him essential for the reasons outlined above.

[Alphan East]

I think a new series would need to stay true to the "core team", yet allow itself the potential to grow and change as it goes.
As is the business though, everything would hinge on 3 key factors:
1) the creativity of the writer and artist.
2) the amount of time Marvel would need to give it to attract a larger following.
3) the willingness of old-time hard-core fans (myself included) to accept the changes as they occur.
I'll admit that the core team is my choice as a starting point. This is the team I love... and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Having said that, I'm not against change, as long as it flows naturally while staying true to the original theme. Some changes (ie. adding characters like Purple Girl, Windshear & Eartmover) were good. Some changes (ie. Volume 3) were absolutely dreadful. But that type of thing has happened in other titles and they have survived... I'm sure there were changes made to books like X-Men and Avengers over the years that not all fans liked.
All a fan can really do is hope the 3 things listed above work together and create something worth reading.

[-K-M-]

Speaking for myself, I want Wyre, Windshear and Earthmover in the team.

And again, I liked Wildchild in X-Factor and hell, I like him as a villain to Wolverine. Yeah, the Romulus connection's a bit tenuous... but at least it got him his powers back (or a new, different set) after the M-day thing and got him out of limbo.
.

Would love to see Earthmover and Windshear back, but Wyre? Really? He is one of my least liked characters in Alpha Flight.

I didn't like WC in X-Factor, his character and personality drastically changed where he became akin to a 16 year old. However, I do like him as a villian though, but with Sabretooth back dont think he will be used much again

[Flightpath07]

I also do not think that ONLY the core characters (or ALL of them) need to appear in an AF series for it to be AF.

Yes, I like Wild Child. Heck, i even liked him as Wild Heart or whatever that horrid name was, and i LOVED him in X-Factor, even though he was far more youthful than he should have been. I echo Phil, in that I'd rather see him return to Alpha as a villain, as he has now (IMHO) been that too long to be redeemed suddenly.

Alphan East, I also am not against change. Purple Girl, Windshear, and Earthmover, to my way of thinking, were all GREAT additions to the team.

I also agree with Phil that one Vindicator or Guardian NEEDS to be on the team. I would disagree, personally, to a Flight without Puck, as i consider him to be essential; and, in many ways, his personality having been changed by his stay in 'heck', was, i think, one of the things i liked least about Volume 4. In the same breath, i think the changing of personalities of Marrina and Persuasion were all wonderful additions, which i'm sure many here will disagree with.

My Volume 5 lineup would consist of a new Box (for muscle; not Madison Jeffries), Puck, Guardian, Marrina, Windshear, Talisman, Yukon Jack, Snowbird, and one "new" character (can be made up, or perhaps a somewhat-well-known mutant from elsewhere?). I'd have Sas and Aurora show up as part-timers and show them getting married and settling down somewhere. I'd have Northstar show up occasionally, but leave he and Madison where they currently are. I'd have Shaman and Earthmover show up occasionally, with Michael now taking on the day-to-day training of Chuck. I'd bring Wildchild back as a villain, and probably use Purple Woman as a villain as well. I'd consider bringing back Smart Alec somehow as a villain, too. And, of course, I'd have Wolverine guest star as often as bloody possible, with he and Mac hunting down Heather wherever she has gone, and perhaps even confronting each other over her, hashing out feelings, etc.

I'm not completely stuck on the status quo, ES, and I'd suggest that although we are all passionate and opinionated here, none of the rest of us are stuck merely on Byrne's team either. i think that those of us who have loved AF since it's inception, merely miss the way that JB grew and wrote these characters. I think, though, that we are all mature enough to realize that times change, and we can never really have again what we once had.

[Alphan East]

My Volume 5 lineup would consist of...
What a GREAT title for a new thread !!!
Staying with my thoughts from earlier, I would have a "core-like" team, but also a group of supporting characters to help change and grow the team as situations present themselves.
I've always envisioned a team of Guardian, Sasquatch, Aurora, Puck, Snowbird, Talisman and one new character (either brand new, or someone plucked from a previous story arc). Then also having a secondary "Reserve" style group, consisting of Vindicator, Shaman, Earthmover, Jeffries, Marrina and Northstar. They would be available on certain missions where their talents are needed, but mainly stay in the background. This would allow Northstar and Jeffries to be available to the X-books whenever Marvel wanted them, let Marrina explore her place and purpose in the world, give Shaman the freedom to train Earthmover (and possibly others), and allow Heather the time she needs to get over the events of Volume 4... she may feel the need to step back, raise Claire, and try to "vindicate" herself. :)
Just my thoughts... what do you think ?

[-K-M-]

I wouldn't mind Ghost Girl to come back

[Le Messor]

ES,
I am not a snob. Snobbery is for the little people. [-(


V4 had the 'core team', and if you ask me, it was utter crap, the team does not make the book, it's what people do with them.

I agree with you there. It is whether or not we have a good creative team, doing good stories; but, as in the v4 example, if we can't have that, can we at least have the core team?
(Or is that worse?)


It doesn't matter that many wouldn't be that excited over Madison's appearing in Alpha again, IF you are even right about that.

Well, as I tried to say earlier, I suspect it's more 'Let's not get so hung up on having Madison that not having him means not having the book' than 'I don't want any book that has him in it; these characters are essential, these are not'.


I swear, AF fandom must be the only fandom where people honestly seem to think that side characters had no fans...
I have news for everyone, Byrne isn't coming back, and if he did, he probably wouldn't write them the way you want, we probably wouldn't have this unchanging 'core team' everyone keeps talking about.

I think that's an exaggeration, at best. Plenty of us like side characters.
Also, the team changed under Byrne.


But then when there's talk of a new series, nothing is good enough short of a rigid line up of characters who have to be on the same team, for the same purpose, no new characters will be tolerated, and god forbid former team members who weren't on Byrne's original roster rejoin.

Also, has it ever come up? I mean, so far every book has contained a combination of Byrne's characters and new characters (or new-to-Alpha characters); have we ever had the possibility of 'Byrne + later characters'?

For me, the problem is this: of the five volumes of AF (counting OF), only two have had the characters I know and love. The rest have borne no resemblance to the team I came to know and love.
Only two of those series have been ones that I really enjoyed - and it's not the same two. I loved v1, mostly Byrne's, but also Hudnall's (and others to lesser degrees), and I liked Omega Flight, and have defended it often. WITHOUT the original team.
(Oh, and I don't hate v3.)

The problem I have - the reason I clamour for the original line-up is that:
That line-up is the reason I got into comics. I've been realising it's as much a combination of Byrne's art and writing and Andy Yanchus's colouring as the characters themselves, but it remains my favourite comic ever (I put it as my number 1 run (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2012/09/05/comics-should-be-goods-top-100-comic-book-runs-2/) on a vote on Comic Book legends - follow that link and vote).
Then, as mentioned, we get a 'revival' of that series I love so much, and what I get has nothing to do with it; a bunch of characters I know nothing about, and care little. Writing and stories I don't like. Bad characterisation, etc... It comes across to me like 'we've put together a team of new characters... let's set it in Canada and call it Alpha Flight', not 'here's Alpha Flight'. Which is painful to me.

I also hate the 'in name only' trope; the idea that anybody can slap the label of something I love on something that in no way resembles that thing I love; and then demand that I show the same love and loyalty to the new thing as the thing I love. It doesn't work that way.
I went to high school with a guy named Michael Jackson - but I would never pay to hear that guy sing, as I have done with another Michael Jackson.

So I overreact to that, and demand the team I know and love.
Sure, if somebody made an Alpha Flight line-up of all side characters I'd buy it; and if it hit all the right notes with me, like Byrne's run, I wouldn't be complaining. Well, not AFTER I read it.

You are right about the characters not being the essential component.
What you get from us, or me, isn't an ignorance of that; it's an exaggeration of my actual feelings, and my want for an Alpha Flight book that is Alpha Flight.
If you looked back over all my posts on that topic, you'd:
1) see that I've talked almost as much about the 'feel', the types of stories, the spirit of the book as the line-up of characters.
2) have an awful lot of free time on your hands.


I'm sure there were changes made to books like X-Men and Avengers over the years that not all fans liked.

That's for sure!


All a fan can really do is hope the 3 things listed above work together and create something worth reading.

Agreed.


I'm not completely stuck on the status quo, ES, and I'd suggest that although we are all passionate and opinionated here, none of the rest of us are stuck merely on Byrne's team either. i think that those of us who have loved AF since it's inception, merely miss the way that JB grew and wrote these characters.

Well said. That's what I said, only far more succinct and better-put.
(So why did I still type all that, after reading this?)

~ Le Messor
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is."

[Alphan East]

What you get from us, or me, isn't an ignorance of that; it's an exaggeration of my actual feelings, and my want for an Alpha Flight book that is Alpha Flight.

Le Messor, I salute you.
I could not have put that better myself. :)

[EccentricSage]

Sorry about my attitude earlier, guys. I was in an awful mood and felt that upon the mere mentioning that I would like to see Madison in Alpha, everyone just shot that down without any further explanation than 'he isn't essential to the core team' which sounds pretty much like a '**** you' when you're the one who's feelings as a fan are being addressed that way. I shouldn't have gotten so defensive but being shot down without explanation by multiple people kind of pissed me off, and what can I say, there's a reason I sympathize with the characters with the anger management issues. I should have given benefit of a doubt before jumping to conclusions.

Phil, no way would I make Madison and Heather a couple again, I didn't intend it to look that way. But they were friends for a good long while after he hooked back up with Lil. I can't imagine him not caring if he found out what happened, you know? Wasn't it you who pointed out to me in another thread that the reason Alpha weren't searching for Madison was because their memories had been wiped of him or something to that effect? Which is, IMO, one of the WORST plot devices I've heard of in a long time and takes a complete dump on his history with the team. I know that would complicate matters if he were to show up, but god damn, I want that addressed! These people had been such a huge, and very good, part of his life. I hate seeing him as this jobber who's just completely lost touch with reality. He was a really cool character, not JUST when Byrne wrote him, and I think with his powers, he could be great! And who doesn't like an underdog? This guy has been layed so low in all these post-Alpha titles and I want to see something spark his passion and get him out of this slump.

I think X Club has some cool characters who are well written, but that does not change that I hate what has been done with Madison. He loses his wife, she dies right in front of him right after they reconciled... and in X-Club they make a big joke of him wanting to bone robots and pass that off as character development?! **** that! I want very much to see him care about someone again and empower himself, act on his own will again. I don't see how it's important to keep in in the X-titles when they treat him like a non entity. Let them build their tech by hand. Restore his history with the people who cared about him.

Or hell, Madison could even go rogue out of a sense of abandonment, become somewhat vilainous, before being redeamed. Anything that would explore his PTSD and show him dealing with the horror of what he did in Weapon X and all his loss in his life. It could make for a great story.

And no, I'm not saying that AF v5 should revolve around him, I'm just trying to point out that he has a ton of history and potential, and I'm trying to explain to you WHY I want to see more Alpha related work done with Madison. There are plenty of different ways he could be dealt with, and with powers like his, battles could get pretty epic... but hey, I'm a sucker for giant robots pilot stories, what can I say? Marvel has plenty of guys with mech suits, but nothing like Madison's potential uses of Box, which could be improved upon, with so many geniuses around. It's blatantly wasteful for him to be that sad jobber tinkering alone in a corner all the damn time.


Over all, I liked Byrne's core team that kept reforming throughout Alpha's history. With the exception of Marina. I haven't really seen anything she was in where I felt like I could relate to her as a person. New Marina isn't a help, this isn't 'character development', it's a complete 360 out of nowhere, just because the writer didn't like Marina. If he didn't know what to do with her, why bring her back? Her 'so edgy' dialogue was so flat and cliche. They traded one one-dimensional characterization of her for another, which accomplishes nothing but further convolution of her continuity which in true Alpha form, from what I understand, was already rather convoluted. I am at a loss as to what a writer could even do with her now.

I actually like Puck, Sas, Snowbird, Shaman, and Talisman all well enough, and Northstar and Aurora are interesting, have a lot of impact and a lot of recognizeability. Of the lot, I like Puck best personality wise, and Snowbird best concept/character design wise, though she is also hard to relate to. But they can always play up her being aloof and mysterious, beyond the comprehension of mortals due to her nature. That is cool and sets her apart from the majority of Marvel characters. I agree with all you guys about wanting to get these characters back to being portrayed correctly. Trust me, I understand those frustrations all to well being a fan of poor Wildchild. A little consistency would have gone a long way. Only changes that should happen should be a natural result of plausible character development.

BTW, I didn't buy that ridiculous Hell story, only heard about it... WHY was Puck in Hell? WTF did I miss?

I think a v5 would be better with a 'revolving door' roster. Have the team leader static, but then have the rest of the characters come and go depending upon where they are needed, personal story arcs, etc. I like Alphan East's idea about having a main team who can be completely devoted to Alpha, and a reserve team who will see action with Alpha, but also are available to other teams/books and have their own reasons to not go on every mission. As much as I'd like to see Northstar more, realistically, I'd like to see the guy get to settle down with his husband, and see scenes here and there of *gasp* characters being normal people and doing civilian type things!

As inconsistent as the writing quality got toward the end of V1, I have to say, what I really did like was seeing the characters as human beings caring about each other, having some fun, acting like real human beings will act during down time rather than gathered in a war room between battles discussing superhuman and human relations, mutant human relations, their next move, political climate, conspiracy theories, ethics, etc. I really loved that Bachelor/Bacheloret party issue, for example. It wasn't exciting or important plot wise, but it did SO MUCH for my suspension of disbelief and my ability to really care about these characters as though they were real people. It's probably part of why I'm so dismayed at the fates of Lil, Madison, and Kyle. I cared about these people, even though I initially only bought some Alpha issues to learn more about Kyle after he joined X-Factor, when I think of these characters, I don't think of how awesome they were in some battle, I think of them as people who were family to each other back in the pages of Alpha, happier times long gone.

I really do hate everything about Wyre. But if a writer has some sort of vision as to what to do with him, some great story to tell, I'd be open to that. I wanted him retconned out of Kyle's Origin, but alas, they didn't go that far. I just don't think the story about his DNA being used makes any sense, and that him suddenly deciding to right his wrongs for no apparent reason and redeem himself was ham-handed and such a cheesy cliche. But I could tolerate him if it's possible to write him well.

See, it was in X-Factor that I fell for the Wildchild character, but one must diferentiate between creative teams. I hated what they were doing to him about half way through his run in that book, when Sabretooth was brought in and they really started to portray Kyle as a freeking kid. I didn't even have to know what he was like in Alpha to see what a huge leap it was from how he was portrayed when he first joined X-Factor... Skilled, competent, quick-witted, loyal, and jocular. I can see how his speech patterns were messed up, after reading his appearances in AF, but I saw a lot of Weapon Omega in there. Then all of a sudden he became this looser, and I was frankly offended for him. You know, it was the editor from the creative team that brought him to X-Factor, who was responsible for the more serious portrayal and tying up of some loose ends when he exited in #142. She'd been off the book when things went down hill, and her name was back in the credits for #142 rather than that idiot who said Wildchild is 16. It really killed me to see what happened to him after that. Things just went from bad to worse.

I'm ok with Wildchild's current villainy except that Loeb treats him like a plot device. He kidnaps Sabes without any explanation of how, even though SEEING him do it would have been a whole lot more exciting. We didn't get any look at how Wildchild feels, what drives him, nothing. IMO, given his past, he should be a rather sympathetic villain. He didn't choose this path, and he has suffered horribly. I really hate the entire Lupine/Romulus thing and just want it to be over already so that these characters can be cut loose. And when that time comes, I'd be fine with Wildchild as an Alpha Flight villain IF his involvement makes sense, and isn't just him being canon fodder in someone else's villainous plot. He has a lot of history, and I want to see his story and his point of view for once. I would love to see him redeemed by Alpha, eventually, though. They probably had no clue what had become of him, no way of finding him, and they were in the midst of getting royally ****ed over themselves, so I could see them not having bad blood with him, though he might feel as though he was abandoned by them at first. There was that one scene with Sas in Loeb's run, which I think is where a writer should work from... Kyle remembers these people were his friends... he could have killed Sas, but he didn't, and didn't he say he didn't want to have to do it, and that he warned them not to come? I think there is still good in Kyle, but he is warped, and being manipulated by Romulus who seems to use some sort of telepathic ability to implant memories and ideas in others' heads. I sure hope that's what Loeb will do with it, and have the Lupine garbage just be Romulus' trip and not true. That's salvageable. But anything is speculation really, no telling what Loeb will do.

I've probably only addressed a fraction of what we're all talking about, here, but I'm starting to loose track. lol



*edit* OH RIGHT! Heather! I really think reconciliation with her will have to be a messy affair to be believable, after the events of v4. I don't like Mac as a character, he was more compelling dead, IMO, but he's back, and I wouldn't want him killed off again. I was immensely relieved when that cover turned out to be misleading, it would have been terrible if the writer made Heather kill Mac.

I want Heather as leader, but I don't know if that can happen. Way I see it, she's going to have to be a wanted woman at first, and there will have to be a storyline leading up to her being absolved of responsibility for her actions. I want to see her back with Alpha Flight, but in a more domestic role, team den mother, and raising her kid. I would really like to see Alpha Flight work independent of the government again, after how badly things went with Dep. H. They shouldn't trust the government anymore, but then, the government should be pushing for Alpha to be part of rebuilding and official again. I for see a lot of push and pull, and ultimatums.

Perhaps the new Government offers Guardian clemency for his wife and some of the team mates who had likewise been controlled, on the condition that Alpha Flight serve as they did before through an official government department. This would, of course, put Heather in a catch 22 position. It could be really interesting. I could see Mac thinking this all very gracious and accepting the deal, over optimistically believing he can 'change things', this is a chance to build a different department H, a chance to do this right, in his eyes. I see Heather reluctantly agreeing to it for the good of her child, but not wanting to play Vindicator anymore. I see her trying to put on a brave face, but the relationship being strained for a long while. I see her butting heads with Mac over how much say the government has, and weather or not he is in fact being naive. I see her focusing on her team as people, as a family, while Mac focuses on them as a compatriots and colleagues. I could see plots arising where Heather works behind his back to protect her family from befalling similar fates as Alpha has in the past. I will always see her as the more realistic and stronger leader than Mac, and want to see her portrayed as a strong leader again, even if subversively. Actually, subversively would be kind of awesome, the more I think about it.

[Alphan East]

Or hell, Madison could even go rogue out of a sense of abandonment, become somewhat vilainous, before being redeamed. Anything that would explore his PTSD and show him dealing with the horror of what he did in Weapon X and all his loss in his life. It could make for a great story.

I agree ES. I've always believed that Jeffries hasn't been used to his full potential.
I would definitely prefer him as part of the team rather than a villain, although that would make for an interesting story arc... could you imagine how dangerous he could be if he just finally snapped ? :)

[EccentricSage]

I agree ES. I've always believed that Jeffries hasn't been used to his full potential.
I would definitely prefer him as part of the team rather than a villain, although that would make for an interesting story arc... could you imagine how dangerous he could be if he just finally snapped ? :)

I feel better knowing that at least someone gets where I'm coming from. lol I want him salvaged as a hero, and want him to be happy again, just as I want that for Kyle. But I could totally see him snapping and becoming a threat. Looking at his history, he could be a stand up guy, but he's also a guy who's made some tough decisions, killing his own brother and best friend when they became a monster, for instance. (terrible terrible story I wish never happened) Even under Byrne's hand, there was a cold side in him... He knew Lil and Wildchild were the victims of something akin to mind control, yet when they turned to him, he told them they'd have to take the fall. Point I'm trying to make is, in hindsight there was always a dark side to Madison, a selfish side, but it was never addressed. It seemed obvious to me as the reader, but his team mates and friends didn't notice in those stories. Of course they wouldn't think of him that way, they care about him. But he has a history of trying to be somebody, trying to play the hero, wanting to do good, but then acting very selfishly. He admired Mac and avenged him, but then quickly pursued a relationship with his widow. He easily gave that up when he could have Lil back. When Lil wanted to stop being a hero and just start a family, he kept running off to Alpha to play hero, leading to him getting kidnapped by villains which led to his role in WX. I don't think he means it, I think he's in denial, but he's not exactly a trust worthy guy. And that makes him interesting to me. I want to see a story that brings his troubled mind to the forefront. If that means he snaps and 'tries to do the right thing' when it's not necessarily the 'right thing' at all and he's just delusional or mistaken, well, that would be some respectable character development.

I think as a hero with a good grasp on his sanity, Madison would always hold back his power, and never fully explore what he's capable of, because his power has a lot of capacity to do harm. He could be a one man arsenal. He could strip his enemies of any weaponry or protective gear with a thought alone. And as he pointed out to Delphine Courtney, if he wanted to be rich, he could. As a villain, he wouldn't feel as compelled to hold back. We got a taste of what he was capable of in WX, we saw how dangerous he could be, but that was him under another's thumb and dumb as a brick that had been hit over the head with another brick a few hundred times. Madison as a villain who means well and is acting on his own will, in denial of some ulterior motive he might have, would truly be a sight to behold. This is a guy who could make an utter joke of Iron Man without even trying, all he'd need is motivation.

[Flightpath07]

Well said. That's what I said, only far more succinct and better-put. You forgot to mention that you were smarter and better looking and make more money.

[Phil]

I just think that if you spend Volume 5 tying up plot holes and storylines from previous volumes and guest appearances you're going to end up with a train wreck of a series.
There are some things best left alone.

[Le Messor]

Le Messor, I salute you.
I could not have put that better myself. :)

Thank you!


...felt that upon the mere mentioning that I would like to see Madison in Alpha, everyone just shot that down without any further explanation...

Thanks for the explanation. I know how bad it is to feel ganged up on, especially when it comes from people you expect to be on your side.


see scenes here and there of *gasp* characters being normal people and doing civilian type things!

How dare you, sir! YOu're flying in the face of everything comics are becoming!
(Seriously, I agree with you on that.)


As inconsistent as the writing quality got toward the end of V1, I have to say, what I really did like was seeing the characters as human beings caring about each other, having some fun, acting like real human beings will act during down time rather than gathered in a war room between battles discussing superhuman and human relations, mutant human relations, their next move, political climate, conspiracy theories, ethics, etc.

'specially that part.


You forgot to mention that you were smarter and better looking and make more money.

It was in the subtext.

Hey! I do not make more money!


I just think that if you spend Volume 5 tying up plot holes and storylines from previous volumes and guest appearances you're going to end up with a train wreck of a series. There are some things best left alone.

I think if you did nothing but that, it would be a train wreck; but if it was a side-thing that kept happening almost in the background of an ongoing, it could still work.

~ Le Messor
"In this fortune, the concluding three words 'were left out'."

[Flightpath07]

I think if you did nothing but that, it would be a train wreck; but if it was a side-thing that kept happening almost in the background of an ongoing, it could still work.

Totally agree.

Also, i feel that the more that these "plot holes" and other issues are ignored, the longer we have a series that too many people don't wanna touch, simply because it is such a mess. Caused, I might add, by writers who either (a) forced their own decisions upon characters that didn't mesh with how they were previously written, or (b) see A, and add in that they haven't actually READ Alpha Flight before writing them.

[Flightpath07]

Sorry about my attitude earlier, guys.

TOTALLY forgivable. Besides which, you've got such a cute typeface, its hard to stay mad at you. :P

[Phil]

Wasn't it you who pointed out to me in another thread that the reason Alpha weren't searching for Madison was because their memories had been wiped of him or something to that effect?
When it happened, yes, but after they regained their memories, plus the new recruits knew, so there was time post-Vol.2/pre-Weapon X to search for him.


I think X Club has some cool characters who are well written, but that does not change that I hate what has been done with Madison. He loses his wife, she dies right in front of him right after they reconciled... and in X-Club they make a big joke of him wanting to bone robots and pass that off as character development?! **** that! I want very much to see him care about someone again and empower himself, act on his own will again. I don't see how it's important to keep in in the X-titles when they treat him like a non entity. Let them build their tech by hand. Restore his history with the people who cared about him.

To be fair, the robot-love was implied before the X-Club series, but thats by-the-by.
To me, it kinda makes sense; he's always had an affinity with machines - that's his powerset. Having been betrayed by the people he loved, abused and brainwashed and then to see Lil killed I can understand why he'd be emotionally vulnerable and detached from humanity. I can see why he'd rather love a machine than a living(and thus dying) human being.
He's been treated with more respect in the X-titles than he was in AF Volume 2 and 3...

And why should he restore his history?
Are your best friends the people you met first?
Do you keep in contact with every single person you've ever met in life?
People move on, people change, people form new friendships, relationships and alliances.
I'd rather him be used well in X-titles than used badly in AF, or not used at all.

And again, all my opinions.
I respect you feel differently.


Or hell, Madison could even go rogue out of a sense of abandonment, become somewhat vilainous, before being redeamed. Anything that would explore his PTSD and show him dealing with the horror of what he did in Weapon X and all his loss in his life. It could make for a great story.
See, I'd hate that.
I'd rather never see him again then become a villain.


Marvel has plenty of guys with mech suits, but nothing like Madison's potential uses of Box, which could be improved upon, with so many geniuses around. It's blatantly wasteful for him to be that sad jobber tinkering alone in a corner all the damn time.
But why does it have to be done in the pages of an AF title?
If Madison is such a great character then why not put him where more people can read him?
Does it matter where he's written if he's written well?



New Marina isn't a help, this isn't 'character development', it's a complete 360 out of nowhere, just because the writer didn't like Marina. If he didn't know what to do with her, why bring her back?
If I'd been killed twice by my husband(/wife in my case) I'd be pretty annoyed and probably change my character violently as a defense mechanism to stop it happening again...


Her 'so edgy' dialogue was so flat and cliche. They traded one one-dimensional characterization of her for another, which accomplishes nothing but further convolution of her continuity which in true Alpha form, from what I understand, was already rather convoluted.
There I agree with you, although I did like Dale's designs.


I am at a loss as to what a writer could even do with her now.
I'd like to see her in a teen book ala Avengers Academy.


BTW, I didn't buy that ridiculous Hell story, only heard about it... WHY was Puck in Hell? WTF did I miss?
He died, he didn't go to heaven.
He's always had a dubious past that he's been ashamed of and Raazer tipped the scales. It's not completely as ridiculous as it sounds.


As much as I'd like to see Northstar more, realistically, I'd like to see the guy get to settle down with his husband, and see scenes here and there of *gasp* characters being normal people and doing civilian type things!
Astonishing X-Men's been doing a pretty good job of conveying his civilian life/hero life balance, so far, IMO.


As inconsistent as the writing quality got toward the end of V1
I'd say the end was more consistent than the middle!


You know, it was the editor from the creative team that brought him to X-Factor, who was responsible for the more serious portrayal and tying up of some loose ends when he exited in #142. She'd been off the book when things went down hill, and her name was back in the credits for #142 rather than that idiot who said Wildchild is 16.
Bill Rosemann's definitely male ;)


We didn't get any look at how Wildchild feels, what drives him, nothing. IMO, given his past, he should be a rather sympathetic villain.
It's not a Wildchild solo series though; there wasn't room for 22 pages of Wild Child discussing his feelings...


He didn't choose this path, and he has suffered horribly.
I don't feel he has; his Romulus persona is a lot closer to Byrne's elegant Omega Flight villain than him being Wildheart is.
I prefer him as a villain.
Again, that's just me.


I really hate the entire Lupine/Romulus thing and just want it to be over already so that these characters can be cut loose.
I agree on the Lupine thing, and it's already being retconned away.


And when that time comes, I'd be fine with Wildchild as an Alpha Flight villain IF his involvement makes sense, and isn't just him being canon fodder in someone else's villainous plot. He has a lot of history, and I want to see his story and his point of view for once. I would love to see him redeemed by Alpha, eventually, though.
I agree, apart from the redeemed part.


They probably had no clue what had become of him, no way of finding him, and they were in the midst of getting royally ****ed over themselves, so I could see them not having bad blood with him, though he might feel as though he was abandoned by them at first.

As you go on to say, Sasquatch knew, so there really was no excuse.



I think if you did nothing but that, it would be a train wreck; but if it was a side-thing that kept happening almost in the background of an ongoing, it could still work.
Oh yeah, there's definitely room for it, especially if done in a sly nod to old school readers,

I just think that shoe-horning lots of elements in, just to try and please everyone isn't the way to go. One of the areas Volume 4 worked in was just ignoring elements of continuity. Not contradicting them, just not referencing them. Yet also Volume 4 had a nod to Snowbird's death which worked.
We don't need to mention Raazer in every issue, for example (or y'know, ever again).
That doesn't mean it didn't happen(unfortunately), just that it's not essential.

[Phil]

I echo Phil


I also agree with Phil

It's infectious!!! :D

[Flightpath07]

It's infectious!!! :D

Your rakish charms are wearing off on me.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

"Madison isn't essential to the team"

So what? If you ask me, this is a kind of snobbery in the AF fandom that doesn't help. Team line ups in other more consistently successful books get shaken up all the time, and the fans don't automatically 'quit' because one character they're less familiar with 'confuses them'. There is no 'essential team'....

main Alpha Flight characters*, Madison's inclusion right away isn't essential. I can't speak to whether Madison has been written well recently, but I do agree that he has incredible potential...either in an Alpha Flight series or elsewhere. G/A-F]

I agree about Heather needing to be top priority right now. As for 70 issues of continuity, I'm saying retcon some of the wrinkles out along the way, not dwell on every hickup in their continuity in every issue. I really can not enjoy books with unaddressed continuity issues, I can't suspend my disbelief, it's a deal breaker for me. But when a writer fixes something we hated in the process of telling a story, said writer gains a new fan, for sure.

At least the brainwashing in the Omega Flight story arc from V1 made some semblance of sense. [I was really referring to the brain-washing from volume 2, which was way too easy (IMO) and far too often. Assuming Judd still has an influencer, what makes Heather so susceptible? I don't think she was ever given one. And once they (finally) remembered what their own government did to them, Judd & Heather are two people who probably wouldn't just let it slide without consequences and repercussions] Courtney didn't just magically make them do her/his/it's bidding like so many villains later on did, nor cause their personality to change completely. [I agree, wholeheartedly] Courtney exploited mentally and emotionally fragile heroes in training during their time of need, and then simply enhanced that reaction they had to being thrown out of the Flight program. Each character was still themselves, but would they have still turned to villainy without the extra push from the behavior modifying technology? We'll never know, and that grey area made Omega Flight more compelling .... But man, how many characters from AF have been brainwashed/mind controlled, in many cases more than once, now? I just think that kind of has to be addressed if Heather's going to be saved from what Master did to her. [no disagreement, there:cool:]

...

* If a dramatic, plausible story showing Mac, Heather, Aurora, Northstar, Marrina, Puck, Sasquatch, Shaman, Snowbird, and Talisman as Canada's champions isn't possible, something is seriously wrong.

[Phil]

that with 9-to-10 main Alpha Flight characters*, Madison's inclusion right away isn't essential.

That's exactly it.

I'd say that 9-10 is too many, 7 or 8 is probably spot on.
Guardian & Vindicator, Shaman & Snowbird, Northstar & Aurora, Sasquatch & Puck. If we lose Heather insert Marinna. If we've lost Northstar too... I'd probably leave it at 7, personally.

If we lost Sasquatch, then I'd have Madison. (Well, I'd probably have Wyre, but I know that I'm the only one in the world, probably)
If we lost Shaman or Snowbird then I'd have Talisman or Earthmover.

Without his powers I'd probably have Windshear as Government liason.

[Sypes]

That's exactly it.

I'd say that 9-10 is too many, 7 or 8 is probably spot on.
Guardian & Vindicator, Shaman & Snowbird, Northstar & Aurora, Sasquatch & Puck. If we lose Heather insert Marinna. If we've lost Northstar too... I'd probably leave it at 7, personally.

If we lost Sasquatch, then I'd have Madison. (Well, I'd probably have Wyre, but I know that I'm the only one in the world, probably)
If we lost Shaman or Snowbird then I'd have Talisman or Earthmover.

Without his powers I'd probably have Windshear as Government liason.

I like your lineups, Phil! I'd also love to see another team à la Young Avengers / Young Justice of new recruits being trained to take over, if needs be one day. Every business / government usually have back up members for business continuity or emergency plans. Perhaps Pathway, Goblyn, Witchfire, Flex, Radius, Ghost Girl and any other new members?

[EccentricSage]

When it happened, yes, but after they regained their memories, plus the new recruits knew, so there was time post-Vol.2/pre-Weapon X to search for him.

Ah, so they do have their memories back. I just have a few bargain bin issues of v2 and v3, since I had sworn off Marvel for so long, so needless to say I'm confused as hell about the continuity at that point in time. How soon after they regained their memories did they get killed off? What was going on with them during that period of time? See, my problem with just leaving it alone is that it makes the whole Alpha Flight team look like tremendous *******s.



To be fair, the robot-love was implied before the X-Club series, but thats by-the-by.
To me, it kinda makes sense; he's always had an affinity with machines - that's his powerset. Having been betrayed by the people he loved, abused and brainwashed and then to see Lil killed I can understand why he'd be emotionally vulnerable and detached from humanity. I can see why he'd rather love a machine than a living(and thus dying) human being.
He's been treated with more respect in the X-titles than he was in AF Volume 2 and 3...

But he wasn't betrayed so much, as people's minds were wiped, crisis was unfolding, etc. I really can't accept all of AF being tremendous douche bags who just didn't care about a guy who used to be like family to them. If that's canon, how can I like these people anymore? I may as well never read another AF title again, if the team is to be held responsible for decisions of Marvel's staff.

Well, Madison was at his best in AF v1, and treated with the most respect in AF v1. Comparing the x-books to AF 2&3 is kind of moot, doesn't seem like very many were treated with respect after v.1. I don't see how it's less ****ed up that he's flirting with a robot so soon after Lil's death. I'd be fine with him being interested in a relationship with an android (Insert Siri joke, here.) if they dealt with his feelings about his wife first, and weren't making him look like a damn pathetic fool in the process of exploring his 'affinity' in a new light.



And why should he restore his history?
Are your best friends the people you met first?
Do you keep in contact with every single person you've ever met in life?
People move on, people change, people form new friendships, relationships and alliances.
I'd rather him be used well in X-titles than used badly in AF, or not used at all.

And again, all my opinions.
I respect you feel differently.

AF weren't the people he first met, but they are people who took him in, lived with him, fought along side him, during the best years of his life. You don't forget family, and you don't let those kinds of feelings go. No, if you think you were abandoned by those people, it festers. I'd rather see it addressed and some sort of reunion in the future so that he can really move on, regardless of what 'moving on' would mean.

I agree it would be better for him to be used well elsewhere than used badly in AF, but the reverse can be just as true.



See, I'd hate that.
I'd rather never see him again then become a villain.

Why? Just curious. Me, I just want him explored more deeply, and want to see him acting on his own will instead of jobbing for others. I wouldn't want him to be an irredeemable villain, EVER, mind you. I'm not talking evil. Any character can make a bad decision or come out on the wrong side of history at some point, and still be a good guy in the end.



But why does it have to be done in the pages of an AF title?
If Madison is such a great character then why not put him where more people can read him?
Does it matter where he's written if he's written well?

Doesn't have to be, but I think it would be nice for him to at least reunite with them temporarily. You already know my reasons for that. I also see no reason why he can't have a story with AF. It's not so much the title, as the characters.



If I'd been killed twice by my husband(/wife in my case) I'd be pretty annoyed and probably change my character violently as a defense mechanism to stop it happening again...

But we didn't really get to see the feelings and thoughts that led to this complete 180. She just shows up with a new personality. I'm all for giving her a bit of anger and edge, but this was just ham handed.



There I agree with you, although I did like Dale's designs.
Me too. The art in v4 was great. Hell, there were some cool moments in dialogue and fighting, too, but the over all concept and some character portrayals were bad. I could have been ok with some of the smaller flaws if the book had ended differently, but issue 8 was just laughable, and then no resolution for poor Heather, ether. It seemed to me like the author must be some huge Guardian fanboy because it just felt to me like it was all about making Guardian solo leader, making him the cool guy, making him the better leader by tearing Heather down in the worst way I could imagine... Ugh. It kind of made me hate Guardian more than he could possibly deserve, just out of spite.



I'd like to see her in a teen book ala Avengers Academy.

Wait, married and still a teen all these years later? Namor, you creep! LOL
I don't think I could buy her being a teen no matter how childish her portrayal. XD It's like Wildchild being 16 in X-Factor.



He died, he didn't go to heaven.
Well yeah, I got THAT part. lmao


He's always had a dubious past that he's been ashamed of and Raazer tipped the scales. It's not completely as ridiculous as it sounds.

I'm more bothered that there is a Heaven and Hell now... I mean, I thought Marvel was always a bit more ambivalent about religion than that. Was Eugine particularly religious? I'm pretty sure Wolverine was an atheist, from everything I'd read, and didn't he go to Hell somehow, too? I didn't read the thing, so just seeing the article about it awhile back... are you SURE it's not completely ridiculous?



Astonishing X-Men's been doing a pretty good job of conveying his civilian life/hero life balance, so far, IMO.

That's good to hear. I'll have to pick some up. Just gonna do digital, screw it. I got a look at the wedding issue at a book store but didn't buy it... I do hope they're at least fleshing out Kyle after the wedding... I just found their relationship really hard to take seriously because it was just like 'hey look, a boyfriend! They love each other! They're getting married'. Show me don't tell me, Marvel.



I'd say the end was more consistent than the middle!

That's for damn sure. I meant, in the latter issues, there were some really great moments that I have fond memories of, but then you also have insane BS like the Nemesis' Children of the Night, Ninjas out of ****ing nowhere in Russia, the name 'Wildheart'...



Bill Rosemann's definitely male ;)

Too bad for you I was talking about Kelly Corvese, and too bad for me, turns out that's a dude too. I've never encountered a man named Kelly before. huh. Also too bad for me that I got it wrong about when Corvese was and was not on the book. Now I'm all confused and going back through all my X-Factors. Agh.



It's not a Wildchild solo series though; there wasn't room for 22 pages of Wild Child discussing his feelings...

I never said it should be. You're making a pretty huge assumption there.

It takes one thought bubble in a single panel to give us some insight on what's going on inside Wildchild, providing the writer has the finesse to write in such a way that all characters are delved into and not just the main character. Of course, if Wolverine's inane thoughts in that story were any indication, I should be grateful Loeb didn't bother.



I don't feel he has; his Romulus persona is a lot closer to Byrne's elegant Omega Flight villain than him being Wildheart is.
I prefer him as a villain.
Again, that's just me.

I don't get what you mean. Wildchild has suffered greatly ever since X-Factor chewed him up and spat him out. For that reason, I don't really blame him if he sees Romulus as some sort of savior, I don't blame him for serving him and being loyal to him, when he's the only one who'd done anything good for Wildchild in an awfully long time, and I can only imagine what kind of state he was in after M-Day.

I agree his personality is a lot closer to Byrne's Wildchild now, but what does that mean? We hardly knew Wildchild under Byrne's pen, aside from that he was a cool design, eloquent, and arrogant. Was he 'evil'? We don't know. He was taken advantage of by Delphine Courtney who was using that behavior modifying technology that could exaggerate their emotional reactions, their fears, their hate, their prejudices. I don't hold him any more responsible for his villainy under Byrne than I'd hold Lil.

On the other hand, he was his own person as Weapon Omega, Wild Heart, and X-Factor's Wildchild, and he was a damn lovable guy who I'm pretty sure we can all agree was not 'evil' or villainous. Even in Weapon X, some positive characteristic came through, with his feelings for Aurora. So yeah, I want to see Wildchild have his chance at happyness and love again some day. Poor ****er deserves better than being a henchman the rest of his life.

Also, I noticed a lot of people online HATE Loeb's Wildchild, Wolvy fans were happy when Way killed him off in such a stupid way. Yet he had fans when he was WO/WH in AFv1 and as Wildchild in X-Factor. I don't think Loeb's story has done Wildchild any favors in the popularity department.


I agree on the Lupine thing, and it's already being retconned away.

Can you point me in the direction of the article or interview? I'm excited to hear that, but not having any luck finding further info.


I agree, apart from the redeemed part.

Frankly, I would like to see him chaotic neutral, not evil or good, but acting according to his own feelings and 'morals' which may not be legal or acceptable. He has plenty of reason to be a vengeful bastard who refuses to accept what others want of him, as it did not go well the last time around. But I'd like to see his heart and humanity in that, too, not a kackling sadistic maniac. We already have Sabretooth for that, and one of the biggest criticisms I see of Wildchild as a villain is that he becomes a mini Sabretooth, and I agree with those people.



As you go on to say, Sasquatch knew, so there really was no excuse.

Sas knew Wildchild reverted back to a villain, and nearly ripped his throat out. I think the 'them vs us' mentality was pretty well established before Sas even understood Wildchild's involvement. I meant, back before Wildchild slipped back into villainy, when he started mutating again and then disappeared into the night... I don't think most of Alpha knew about that, save for Aurora knowing about his involvement in WX, and her state of mind until recently is a whole 'nother can of worms. But from WC's point of view, he might wonder why they never tried to save him. From their POV, this Wildchild isn't even the guy they knew and loved, but his repressed bestial personality. I'm just theorizing on how villain Wildchild could be fleshed out a bit more, what could be going on inside him, is all. I'm trying to explain why I don't see his villainy as this black and white issue, and see him as a sympathetic villain.



Oh yeah, there's definitely room for it, especially if done in a sly nod to old school readers,

I just think that shoe-horning lots of elements in, just to try and please everyone isn't the way to go. One of the areas Volume 4 worked in was just ignoring elements of continuity. Not contradicting them, just not referencing them. Yet also Volume 4 had a nod to Snowbird's death which worked.
We don't need to mention Raazer in every issue, for example (or y'know, ever again).
That doesn't mean it didn't happen(unfortunately), just that it's not essential.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. And I'd love to see some of the stupid **** retconned along the way, like how Aurora and Northstar being half-elf was retconned out. If some writer could retcon raazor somehow in the course of a story. Not dwell on it, just try to avoid it until an opportunity to fix it comes up. And some old wounds should be healed, though right now the fresh wound that Heather is sporting is top priority.

[Jason Eberly]

. If that's canon, how can I like these people anymore? I may as well never read another AF title again, if the team is to be held responsible for decisions of Marvel's staff.

It seems to me that this statement is backward. These characters are just puppets that exist and act completely at the whim of Marvel. If a character does something you don't like/agree with/seems out of character, it is solely the fault of the creators.

[/quote] Well, Madison was at his best in AF v1, and treated with the most respect in AF v1. Comparing the x-books to AF 2&3 is kind of moot, doesn't seem like very many were treated with respect after v.1. I don't see how it's less ****ed up that he's flirting with a robot so soon after Lil's death. I'd be fine with him being interested in a relationship with an android (Insert Siri joke, here.) if they dealt with his feelings about his wife first, and weren't making him look like a damn pathetic fool in the process of exploring his 'affinity' in a new light. [/quote]

For the most part, I agree here. It could be as simple as a panel or two talking or thinking about how he's grieved for Lil but its time to move on blah blah blah to a whole story or subplot over his guilt between his attraction to Danger and his missing Lil.


AF weren't the people he first met, but they are people who took him in, lived with him, fought along side him, during the best years of his life. You don't forget family, and you don't let those kinds of feelings go. No, if you think you were abandoned by those people, it festers. I'd rather see it addressed and some sort of reunion in the future so that he can really move on, regardless of what 'moving on' would mean.

I had some very large unresolved issues with my ex-wife and her family back in the mid-90's. However, I resolved it myself by coming to the conclusion of "she made her decision, they made their decision, best just to go our separate ways and hope I never see them again. Not that I'm against it if this story were to happen, merely that issues don't always get resolved neatly. Life moves on and all that crap.


(Re: Marrina) But we didn't really get to see the feelings and thoughts that led to this complete 180. She just shows up with a new personality. I'm all for giving her a bit of anger and edge, but this was just ham handed.

I just assumed (or perhaps used my imagination) that Marrina's new personality is in some way connected to her Plodex heritage. When she came back in the Chaos War one-shot, she was much more savage, and figured by the time of the mini, she had been able to reign in the savagery to an extent.


Me too. The art in v4 was great. Hell, there were some cool moments in dialogue and fighting, too, but the over all concept and some character portrayals were bad. I could have been ok with some of the smaller flaws if the book had ended differently, but issue 8 was just laughable, and then no resolution for poor Heather, ether. It seemed to me like the author must be some huge Guardian fanboy because it just felt to me like it was all about making Guardian solo leader, making him the cool guy, making him the better leader by tearing Heather down in the worst way I could imagine... Ugh.

Perhaps Fred and Greg (the writers) were big Guardian fans, but the implied insult of calling them a "huge Guardian fanboy" is a bit unfair, in my opinion. It doesn't seem all that different to how you want to elevate Madison or Wild Child. We all have characters we like more than others, even writers. It's fine that you don't like how Heather was treated, but her story isn't finished. Some writer (perhaps you or me!) can come along and redeem her and treat Guardian like crap, if we so please.


It kind of made me hate Guardian more than he could possibly deserve, just out of spite.

Again, blame the creators, not the character.


Wait, married and still a teen all these years later? Namor, you creep! LOL
I don't think I could buy her being a teen no matter how childish her portrayal. XD It's like Wildchild being 16 in X-Factor.

The difference between Marrina and Wild Child is that Marrina was killed when she was (approximately by my guess) about 18 and was dead for years (or however long it had been in Marvel's compressed time), so she wouldn't have aged when she was brought back to life. There's really no inconsistency about her age (well, no more inconsistency than a universe where Reed Richards and Ben Grimm fought in WWII but are apparently in the 40's today).


I'm more bothered that there is a Heaven and Hell now... I mean, I thought Marvel was always a bit more ambivalent about religion than that. Was Eugine particularly religious? I'm pretty sure Wolverine was an atheist, from everything I'd read, and didn't he go to Hell somehow, too? I didn't read the thing, so just seeing the article about it awhile back... are you SURE it's not completely ridiculous?

Marvel has long had versions of "Heaven" and "Hell"....especially Hell. The Marvel version (of Hell, at least) tends to be somewhat different than the biblical version, with different demons being in charge of different "sections" of Hell. Mephisto, Hellstorm, Sattanish, etc., etc. all rule over pieces of "Hell". Heaven (and angels and the sort) have have major roles in such titles as the 70's Defenders, Ghost Rider, Hellstorm, Fantastic Four (in this one, Jack Kirby was depicted as God). So no, Puck going to one of the myriad versions of "Hell" is no more absurd than Thor visiting Hel or Hades or Tucson.


That's good to hear. I'll have to pick some up. Just gonna do digital, screw it. I got a look at the wedding issue at a book store but didn't buy it... I do hope they're at least fleshing out Kyle after the wedding... I just found their relationship really hard to take seriously because it was just like 'hey look, a boyfriend! They love each other! They're getting married'. Show me don't tell me, Marvel.

I agree completely with this one.


That's for damn sure. I meant, in the latter issues, there were some really great moments that I have fond memories of, but then you also have insane BS like the Nemesis' Children of the Night, Ninjas out of ****ing nowhere in Russia, the name 'Wildheart'...

For me, the last 20 issues were the worst of the first volume. While I know most people despise the Mantlo-era, and I'll be happy to admit that the inconsistencies were quite glaring and whatnot, at least it felt as if it was headed somewhere (even if you didn't like where it ended up). The final 20 just felt rambling and unfocussed. Just my opinion, of course.


It takes one thought bubble in a single panel to give us some insight on what's going on inside Wildchild, providing the writer has the finesse to write in such a way that all characters are delved into and not just the main character. Of course, if Wolverine's inane thoughts in that story were any indication, I should be grateful Loeb didn't bother.

While I agree that it's nice to get insight into characters (and some characters definitely need their motivations/thoughts defined more than others), there is nothing that says it has to be done in THIS story, right NOW. I haven't read the Romulus storyline, but I'm guessing this is not a story centered on Wild Child, but rather a story that happens to have Wild Child in it. Personally, I think I'd rather wait for someone who actually seems to understand the character to flesh out "where Wild Child is at" than someone like Loeb who just seems to be using the character for his power set.


I don't get what you mean. Wildchild has suffered greatly ever since X-Factor chewed him up and spat him out. For that reason, I don't really blame him if he sees Romulus as some sort of savior, I don't blame him for serving him and being loyal to him, when he's the only one who'd done anything good for Wildchild in an awfully long time, and I can only imagine what kind of state he was in after M-Day.

See, that right there (to me, at least) is a pretty darn good reason for Wild Child's current state of mind. I'm going to go with that until Marvel tells me something different.


I agree his personality is a lot closer to Byrne's Wildchild now, but what does that mean? We hardly knew Wildchild under Byrne's pen, aside from that he was a cool design, eloquent, and arrogant. Was he 'evil'? We don't know. He was taken advantage of by Delphine Courtney who was using that behavior modifying technology that could exaggerate their emotional reactions, their fears, their hate, their prejudices. I don't hold him any more responsible for his villainy under Byrne than I'd hold Lil.

"Evil?" No, I don't think he was ever portrayed as evil. But subsequent appearances in the Hudnall version and Fabian Nicieza versions reinforced the notion that Wild Child is feral and unstable. To me, "Building Blocks" is the last time Wild Child was treated properly as a character, whereas you've chosen your own favorite "restore point" (for want of a better term) of him as a hero.


On the other hand, he was his own person as Weapon Omega, Wild Heart, and X-Factor's Wildchild, and he was a damn lovable guy who I'm pretty sure we can all agree was not 'evil' or villainous.

But I'm sure we won't agree that he was written way out of character from his early established personality.


Even in Weapon X, some positive characteristic came through, with his feelings for Aurora. So yeah, I want to see Wildchild have his chance at happyness and love again some day. Poor ****er deserves better than being a henchman the rest of his life.

I don't know...I see him as one of those characters that life will always crap on. Mental instability, physical deformity, bad luck in relationships...sometimes, that's just the way a character (or person, for that matter) is.


Frankly, I would like to see him chaotic neutral, not evil or good, but acting according to his own feelings and 'morals' which may not be legal or acceptable. He has plenty of reason to be a vengeful bastard who refuses to accept what others want of him, as it did not go well the last time around. But I'd like to see his heart and humanity in that, too, not a kackling sadistic maniac. We already have Sabretooth for that, and one of the biggest criticisms I see of Wildchild as a villain is that he becomes a mini Sabretooth, and I agree with those people.

I like the first part of your thought here. I would like to see Wild Child as a (no pun intended) wild card. In one story he can help the heroes with everything he has to give, the next time he shows up he could be the antagonist. Heck, or even switch mid-story. Not, as you put it, a "cackling sadistic maniac", but what his name implies: an unpredictable, mentally unbalanced, emotionally damaged, instinct driven character.




Sas knew Wildchild reverted back to a villain, and nearly ripped his throat out. I think the 'them vs us' mentality was pretty well established before Sas even understood Wildchild's involvement. I meant, back before Wildchild slipped back into villainy, when he started mutating again and then disappeared into the night... I don't think most of Alpha knew about that, save for Aurora knowing about his involvement in WX, and her state of mind until recently is a whole 'nother can of worms. But from WC's point of view, he might wonder why they never tried to save him. From their POV, this Wildchild isn't even the guy they knew and loved, but his repressed bestial personality. I'm just theorizing on how villain Wildchild could be fleshed out a bit more, what could be going on inside him, is all. I'm trying to explain why I don't see his villainy as this black and white issue, and see him as a sympathetic villain.

Just a personal opinion here, but I'm kind of bored with the "sypmapthetic villain" angle in comics these days. It seems EVERY villain is either the uber-megalomaniac or a sympathetic, tragic character. Whatever happened to the greedy scumbag who just wanted to rob a bank or kidnap some rich kid to ransom him?


Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. And I'd love to see some of the stupid **** retconned along the way, like how Aurora and Northstar being half-elf was retconned out. If some writer could retcon raazor somehow in the course of a story. Not dwell on it, just try to avoid it until an opportunity to fix it comes up. And some old wounds should be healed, though right now the fresh wound that Heather is sporting is top priority.

I consider what happened to Northstar and Aurora being half-elven as something I termed a long time ago as a "revcon", or "revealed continuity". To me, a retcon is something that changes established continuity (like Tony Stark now creating the Iron Man armor in Afghanistan rather than Viet Nam) whereas a revcon is something that is revealed to us as not being what it first appeared to be. The story where Northstar and Aurora were "revealed" to be half-elven still exists as it was portrayed; it was just revealed later that they (and us) had been lied to by Loki. A new truth was revealed.

I know that was neither here nor there, just thought I'd put it out there.

Great discussion on all sides!

[EccentricSage]

It seems to me that this statement is backward. These characters are just puppets that exist and act completely at the whim of Marvel. If a character does something you don't like/agree with/seems out of character, it is solely the fault of the creators.

Yes, but the problem is continuity. If there is some acknowledgement of what happened and the characters move on, ok, I can once again suspend my disbelief, and not be all conflicted about how I feel about the continuity and characterization. It is the creative teams' fault, but what they write for the characters becomes the characters' reality, get what I'm saying? It's something that will always bug me.



For the most part, I agree here. It could be as simple as a panel or two talking or thinking about how he's grieved for Lil but its time to move on blah blah blah to a whole story or subplot over his guilt between his attraction to Danger and his missing Lil.

That, and a respectable amount of time passing. It just seems like one writer decides to kill off his wife, and then the next writer just decides he doesn't feel like really addressing that. And I'm tired if Madison just being portrayed as pathetic. It's the same sort of kick him when he's down **** that went on with Wildchild in X-Factor and Weapon X, and what can I say, on top of already liking the character, I'm a sucker for the underdog, and I don't like seeing people suffering without any resolution.



I had some very large unresolved issues with my ex-wife and her family back in the mid-90's. However, I resolved it myself by coming to the conclusion of "she made her decision, they made their decision, best just to go our separate ways and hope I never see them again. Not that I'm against it if this story were to happen, merely that issues don't always get resolved neatly. Life moves on and all that crap.

But I imagine you thought about them, and that some interaction happened, before you gave up and moved on. The issue I have with Madison and Alpha at large not having any contact or thought about each other or what has been lost at all after everything they experienced as a team and close nit friends, practically family... people don't just let go without a reason like that. It seems more like a writing and editorial oversight than even an intended part of their characterization. No one even had any falling out, really, it was all just a twist of fate, victims of circumstance, and seems unnatural.



I just assumed (or perhaps used my imagination) that Marrina's new personality is in some way connected to her Plodex heritage. When she came back in the Chaos War one-shot, she was much more savage, and figured by the time of the mini, she had been able to reign in the savagery to an extent.

I'd be ok with it if it weren't so poorly done, is all. I see nothing of the previous Marina in the new Marina, which just makes her that much less likable for me. I'll be happy if any writer can smooth it out, and make her seem more... real, I guess, less cliche.



Perhaps Fred and Greg (the writers) were big Guardian fans, but the implied insult of calling them a "huge Guardian fanboy" is a bit unfair, in my opinion. It doesn't seem all that different to how you want to elevate Madison or Wild Child. We all have characters we like more than others, even writers. It's fine that you don't like how Heather was treated, but her story isn't finished. Some writer (perhaps you or me!) can come along and redeem her and treat Guardian like crap, if we so please.
Again, blame the creators, not the character.

See, I'm more concerned with Wildchild and Madison because they're some of my favorite characters. That doesn't mean I'd feel the need to craft an entire story, to the detriment of other characters, just to elevate them. If I were to write Alpha Flight, I wouldn't want to **** with Mac out of this weird spite I have for him... I think characters and their fans deserve more respect than that. Hell, if Wyre had to be in a book, and I was the writer, I wouldn't even **** him over, and I hate everything about that character.

And I did say it was a hate that he doesn't necessarily deserve. It's the same sort of thing with me feeling spiteful towards Wolverine because the Marvel Universe too often seems to revolve around him, to the detriment of others. Doesn't mean he's a terrible character or that I really want him to fail, it's just a feeling of dislike, and we all have our feelings.



The difference between Marrina and Wild Child is that Marrina was killed when she was (approximately by my guess) about 18 and was dead for years (or however long it had been in Marvel's compressed time), so she wouldn't have aged when she was brought back to life. There's really no inconsistency about her age (well, no more inconsistency than a universe where Reed Richards and Ben Grimm fought in WWII but are apparently in the 40's today).

I only have some bits and pieces of her time in Alpha, I heard she died twice? Was she really 18 when she married Namor, and how old was he? It still sounds a bit off...



Marvel has long had versions of "Heaven" and "Hell"....especially Hell. The Marvel version (of Hell, at least) tends to be somewhat different than the biblical version, with different demons being in charge of different "sections" of Hell. Mephisto, Hellstorm, Sattanish, etc., etc. all rule over pieces of "Hell". Heaven (and angels and the sort) have have major roles in such titles as the 70's Defenders, Ghost Rider, Hellstorm, Fantastic Four (in this one, Jack Kirby was depicted as God). So no, Puck going to one of the myriad versions of "Hell" is no more absurd than Thor visiting Hel or Hades or Tucson.

I get that all these other realms exist, but I can understand why Norse characters would go to Norse underworlds/afterlife/hel, what have you... They're Norse. When a character goes to Hell, due to dying, without necessarily being religious or anything, it just rubs me the wrong way, I guess. Like, why would they default to ether Heaven or Hell and not a myriad of other afterlife possibilities?



For me, the last 20 issues were the worst of the first volume. While I know most people despise the Mantlo-era, and I'll be happy to admit that the inconsistencies were quite glaring and whatnot, at least it felt as if it was headed somewhere (even if you didn't like where it ended up). The final 20 just felt rambling and unfocussed. Just my opinion, of course.

I agree about the aimlessness, which was probably the book's undoing. There were good moments, but they didn't really hook you in and make you want to know what happens next.



While I agree that it's nice to get insight into characters (and some characters definitely need their motivations/thoughts defined more than others), there is nothing that says it has to be done in THIS story, right NOW. I haven't read the Romulus storyline, but I'm guessing this is not a story centered on Wild Child, but rather a story that happens to have Wild Child in it. Personally, I think I'd rather wait for someone who actually seems to understand the character to flesh out "where Wild Child is at" than someone like Loeb who just seems to be using the character for his power set.

Like I said, I was only looking for some little glimpse, not a story revolving around him. Considering the fact that Wildchild was suddenly overpowered and the mysterious main Villain's right-hand-man, I'd say he was important enough to merit a little insight. lol I think it would add a lot more depth to him facing off with Wolverine. A good hero needs a good villain. Yeah, I'm saying Loeb lacked the finesse, the whole story is nuts, and full of Wolvy waxing philosophical about the creationism completely out of character, making obvious observations, etc. I hope someone decent who gives a **** picks Wildchild up after Loeb's story is finally wrapped up.



See, that right there (to me, at least) is a pretty darn good reason for Wild Child's current state of mind. I'm going to go with that until Marvel tells me something different.

Glad to hear it. Sometimes I wonder if I'm alone in my interpretation of the character. I have to say, I'd love to write for Marvel some day, but I suck at writing! But I always find myself getting drawn into ideas about some of the less used/ill used characters and they grow into these huge concepts inside my head. I'll have the ideas and dialogue, but it's all in visual format in my mind... translating the scenes into text just is not working. So I think I'll have to get good enough and fast enough to do the art myself, too, if I were ever to work in the comics industry... But I'm almost 30 and still not anywhere near where I'd need to be. I have a fan project I want to do just for practice, anyhow, but it is already completely out of alignment with Marvel's continuity, thanks to recent events. Frustrating.



"Evil?" No, I don't think he was ever portrayed as evil. But subsequent appearances in the Hudnall version and Fabian Nicieza versions reinforced the notion that Wild Child is feral and unstable. To me, "Building Blocks" is the last time Wild Child was treated properly as a character, whereas you've chosen your own favorite "restore point" (for want of a better term) of him as a hero.

Wasn't that the Lan the Sorcerer story, and then his bloody rampage afterward? I didn't think it was a very good depiction of the character at all. He just ran around clawing things and saying the word 'slashing' a lot. It read to me like a very dumbed down version of Byrne's Wildchild. And then the writer was done with him, or perhaps the plan to do an off panel cure had already been discussed behind the scenes, so WC just completely looses it and attacks people so that Nemesis has to whisk him away to save him from Wolverine. At least, that's the way I read it. Byrne's WC seemed a lot smarter and more in control. But none the less, it's continuity now.

What would my restore point be? I actually thought the way they went about 'curing' him off panel and making him beautiful to top it off was awful. If I ignore that Weapon Omega was Wildchild, I kind of like the character as his own character, but it just doesn't work that way, or shouldn't, at least. lol I actually prefer Wildchild feral looking and a bit wicked (Fan art: http://eccentricsage.deviantart.com/#/d4ub8ch ), but the good side of him that was established is part of his continuity also, and shouldn't be ignored, IMO. For me, the perfect Wildchild would be something closer to Byrne's in appearance and mannerism, but with a well rounded personality capable of both love and hate, a personality that encompasses everything he's been... a bit crazy, violent, humorous, loyal, rebellious, sympathetic, vengeful, clever, eloquent... None of these things have to contradict each other.



But I'm sure we won't agree that he was written way out of character from his early established personality.
At which point in time are you referring? With WO, he was revamped using a bad plot device, I agree. It would have been much better for Wildchild's issues to be dealt with without a 'cure' and without making him look like Fabio. I don't personally see any reason why Byrne's Wildchild couldn't become one of the 'good guys', if perhaps a less trusted one with a chip on his shoulder. It wasn't really his fault he had become a villain in the first place, after all, and the 'Secret Empire Experiment' back story showed a complete lack of creativity. Great, let's make him a Wolvy clone, but with looks fit for a romance novel cover. Lame.



I don't know...I see him as one of those characters that life will always crap on. Mental instability, physical deformity, bad luck in relationships...sometimes, that's just the way a character (or person, for that matter) is.

I don't enjoy seeing anyone suffer like that, so needless to say I don't find such a narrative entertaining in comics, ether. I think it makes him the underdog, though, and could make him endearing if handled right. Why can't the ugly ones be loved? And who in Marvel's massive pool of older characters HASN'T been unstable at some point, if not downright villainous? Some of Marvel's most popular heroes have been there. Oh, and Wolvy use to be a homely little harry man, until the X-Men Movies happened. Liked him better ugly, too. I think Marvel has ruined beauty for me. I'm so over it! LOL



I like the first part of your thought here. I would like to see Wild Child as a (no pun intended) wild card. In one story he can help the heroes with everything he has to give, the next time he shows up he could be the antagonist. Heck, or even switch mid-story. Not, as you put it, a "cackling sadistic maniac", but what his name implies: an unpredictable, mentally unbalanced, emotionally damaged, instinct driven character.

Yay!



Just a personal opinion here, but I'm kind of bored with the "sypmapthetic villain" angle in comics these days. It seems EVERY villain is either the uber-megalomaniac or a sympathetic, tragic character. Whatever happened to the greedy scumbag who just wanted to rob a bank or kidnap some rich kid to ransom him?

Oh, I agree, there should be all types. It's just that in Kyle's case, 'sympathetic' villain makes a lot more sense, given his history. Even anti-hero could work, and I usually hate the anti-hero thing, but that's because it's so often poorly done and involves an unrelateable flat character just being violent and shocking, yet the protagonist of the story. I just think the story should fit the character, rather than people drasticly changing characters to fit their stories.

And I want to apologise to everyone for this thread ending up with such a Wildchild heavy convo. Was not my intention, but if people are up for discussing my faveorite character, I don't turn down the interest. Though sometimes I wonder how we end up here. I guess because he's controversial, in regards to how peoplefeel about his continuity and different incarnations of him? (And I have too many ideas and am stuborn)



I consider what happened to Northstar and Aurora being half-elven as something I termed a long time ago as a "revcon", or "revealed continuity". To me, a retcon is something that changes established continuity (like Tony Stark now creating the Iron Man armor in Afghanistan rather than Viet Nam) whereas a revcon is something that is revealed to us as not being what it first appeared to be. The story where Northstar and Aurora were "revealed" to be half-elven still exists as it was portrayed; it was just revealed later that they (and us) had been lied to by Loki. A new truth was revealed.

I know that was neither here nor there, just thought I'd put it out there.

Great discussion on all sides!

I like that idea of differentiating, but not very many people do it. So they can revcon some stuff out, then. Sounds good to me!

[Garry/Al-Fan]

IMO, it would be payback (and real justice) if somebody put all the mind-wiping "officials" into their own mind-addling machines and redacted 90% of their memories.

[Phil]

Well, Clarke died so it was almost justice.

[EccentricSage]

IMO, it would be payback (and real justice) if somebody put all the mind-wiping "officials" into their own mind-addling machines and redacted 90% of their memories.

Yeah, I would hope that could be dealt with post v4. I mean... I'm sure a lot of people died, can you imagine the elections? It was kind of a ridiculous point to leave off on. Maybe if the series had been ongoing, and these things left hanging were dealt with, I'd have a better impression of the Maxi as a whole... but that last issue was completely over the top, and the whole defeat of the Master was completely dependent upon the Master saying what he did in front of Heather, rather than Mac and the team's plans... It just seemed absurd to me.

I think the re-building of the government in Canada while there's all this super powered strife and Mutant drama just south of the border, as well as how Alpha would pick of the pieces and where they would stand in relations to said government, is far more compelling than the plot of the Maxi.

[Flightpath07]

I think the re-building of the government in Canada while there's all this super powered strife and Mutant drama just south of the border, as well as how Alpha would pick of the pieces and where they would stand in relations to said government, is far more compelling than the plot of the Maxi.

Don't look now, but there could be an Avengers North coming to Marvel soon!

Not saying there IS, just that there COULD BE...

[Le Messor]

Maybe if the series had been ongoing, and these things left hanging were dealt with, I'd have a better impression of the Maxi as a whole...

Maybe, but I doubt I would. If it had continued as it was, I would've dropped it. I don't know when, but I wouldn't be reading it by now.

~ Le Messor
"Inferiority complex: a conviction by a jury of your fears."
~ anon

[EccentricSage]

Don't look now, but there could be an Avengers North coming to Marvel soon!

Not saying there IS, just that there COULD BE...

lol I still think (under different circumstances than the current set in the MU) they should relaunch AF as 'Canadian Avengers' as a joke, with the team indignant over it, have a bit of an AF/Avengers cross over Adventure out of it, and then restore Alphas proper name while simultaneously establishing/re establishing more ties to popular characters in popular books. A light fun adventure for once, with a bit of poking fun at Marvel's marketing. Now would be a really bad time for that, of course.


Maybe, but I doubt I would. If it had continued as it was, I would've dropped it. I don't know when, but I wouldn't be reading it now.


Good point. I should know better than to hold out hope. But if the book had been ongoing, maybe a new writer would come in soon enough to save it, if it did simply keep it's downward trajectory. Alas, we shall never know. I would have at least like to have seen some resolution to Heather's situation. Leaving that a loose thread is just insane. It's the kind of thing editors shouldn't be letting wriiters do, as then the issue gets forgotten about by marvel's staff, but not by the fans, and further mars continuity when another writer takes a stabat the team or the character Heather without addressing what happened. It's too common nowadays.

[Le Messor]

I still think (under different circumstances than the current set in the MU) they should relaunch AF as 'Canadian Avengers' as a joke, with the team indignant over it

I like it! :D



Leaving that a loose thread is just insane. It's the kind of thing editors shouldn't be letting wriiters do, as then the issue gets forgotten about by marvel's staff, but not by the fans, and further mars continuity when another writer takes a stabat the team or the character Heather without addressing what happened. It's too common nowadays.

... and leaving that insane a thread is just loose writing.

Sadly, I think you're right. I wouldn't be surprised if next time we see Heather, we'll just have her hanging out with the team as if nothing ever happened.
(I keep thinking about the Hulk issues, but that's not Heather in there, it just looks a lot like her.)

~ Le Messor
"Incompetence plus incompetence equals incompetence."

[Le Messor]

I'm pretty sure Wolverine was an atheist, from everything I'd read, and didn't he go to Hell somehow, too?

Look at it this way: in a world where Heaven and Hell are real, counting on atheism to save you from Hell is about as useful as jumping naked out of an aeroplane at 30,000ft while declaring "There's no such thing as parachutes!"

[EccentricSage]

Look at it this way: in a world where Heaven and Hell are real, counting on atheism to save you from Hell is about as useful as jumping naked out of an aeroplane at 30,000ft while declaring "There's no such thing as parachutes!"

So everyone should pray to Jesus, or perform some simular religious right begging YHWH to spare their souls? Being a non believer, that entire idea makes me extremely uncomfortable. If everyone in the MU is subject to the judgement of God, regardless of their religion or lack there of, I'll swear off Marvel all over again! For anyone who's grown up having the faithful use the 'what if you're wrong, you better play it safe and submit to our dogma' argument and constantly promising your soul's eternal damnation for thinking for yourself, this is a very very sensitive subject.

They should just make it so that your spiritual alignment effects who you are beholoden to when you die, if anyone at all. Let characters like Wolfsbain, Shadowcat, Aurora, and Nightcrawler worry about heaven and hell, don't force it on characters who don't seem to hold any faith to begin with. Mind you, I do think more Marvel characters should have some religious belief, because I think the religious are an under represented majority in this case. I think it's lazy writing.

[Phil]

Lets not steer this thread too closely towards the topic of religion; we've been down this road before and it's never a comfortable experience.

[Flightpath07]

ES, I'd just like to point out that the 'hell" portrayed in the Wolverine storyline was far from the Biblical portrayal of hell, it was merely 'a hell' as envisioned by the writer(s). One they chose to put Wolverine (and Puck) into.

The Biblical portrayal of hell, CANNOT exist in the Marvel Universe; it is an impossibility, due to the fact Marvel has already okay-ed other religions and made them exist in their Univ in reality; in the Biblical hell, there would only be Earth, Heaven, and Hell (and purgatory, if you are Catholic), no other hereafters and no other gods.

So don't get too hung up on what is, in the end, just a fictionalization by the writers intended to serve a purpose for the story du jour. I don't think it was intended to be a preachy moment by them, just another story.

[Le Messor]

that entire idea makes me extremely uncomfortable.

Sorry 'bout that. I just haven't had the kind of life that makes me believe that the laws of the universe (social / physical / spiritual) change themselves to fit what I want.


Lets not steer this thread too closely towards the topic of religion; we've been down this road before and it's never a comfortable experience.

Ahh!!! Swerve! Swerve! Steer away! We're gonna cr--

[EccentricSage]

Sorry 'bout that. I just haven't had the kind of life that makes me believe that the laws of the universe (social / physical / spiritual) change themselves to fit what I want.

Nor have I. Don't imply your religious views are the 'laws of the universe', thanks. Nor do I apreciate the implication that I'm so naive as to believe that my views define reality.

If you mean the 'laws of the universe' for fictional characters, of course they can be whatever people want, it's a fictional universe. I don't buy Marvel to read Christian Fictional Literature. Christian themes and 'laws of the universe re:the spiritual' should only apply to Christian characters. If Marvel were to decide that is not the case, then I'll be done with Marvel.

[Le Messor]

Christian themes and 'laws of the universe re:the spiritual' should only apply to Christian characters. If Marvel were to decide that is not the case, then I'll be done with Marvel.

Trust me, they won't.

[Legerd]

Not to jump into this hornet's nest, but wasn't Wolverine's soul taken out of his body and a demon stuck in to replace it? If so he never died and was therefor not judged and sent to Hell, he was kidnapped. This would be how an atheist could end up there without the writers having to comment on either religion or atheism.


Sorry about my attitude earlier, guys. I was in an awful mood and felt that upon the mere mentioning that I would like to see Madison in Alpha, everyone just shot that down...

Not everyone, I want Madison back in the Box armour and back on the team right now! He's wasted on the X-Science Team. Plus, I'd like to see Windshear back. I was thinking (before the core team returned from the dead) that it would be cool to see Colin return sans powers and take up the mantle of Guardian, or take over the Box armour since Madison was gone. Even now I'd say put him in Box if Madison is being used elsewhere.

[Le Messor]

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

~ Mickey the bee

[Flightpath07]

Your comment about Colin, and the Box armour...

As much as i enjoy having Jamie back in the Guardian suit, and I do, if anyone else were to be in it (and I think at this point in her life, Heather should concentrate on being a mom rather than a superhero), I'd pick Mr. Hume.

Rather see him there than in the Box armour. If we are talking about Box without Madison's power-set, than we are talking about Boch's Box (which I actually preferred), and anybody who can put the control-thingy on his head can control that Box.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Well, Clarke died so it was almost justice.

I get that, I'm glad Clarke is gone, but that's a bit more on the revenge/retribution side of things, to me, whereas mind-wiping the mind-wipers is a bit more tit-for-tat (eye for an eye), even-steven. Besides, "Bucky-dead" isn't even "Bucky-dead" anymore; Norman Osborne is a big-bad in Marvel...and he died (deservedly) a long time ago.

Anyhow, there had to be people who authorized/"misappropriated" the funding for the mind-swiping devise(s); there had to be engineers and technicians who designed, built and operated the devices. I doubt Clarke did the whole operation by himself.

Lastly, a (corrupt) public/military official with only 10% of what he used to know would be pretty useless and hard-pressed to keep a high-level position: in short, their lives would be about as ruined and chaotic as those of the people they forced into service.

[Flightpath07]

After reading the above post, i have decided that I must have been mind-wiped during my lifetime. Repeatedly.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I thought I had read that in the Marvel Universe, demons/demonic beings like Mephisto could grab/ensnare your soul after your death and keep it in "hell" if you've only forgotten to return a library book? Marvel's hell dimensions are different than any Biblical hell too, since there are many of them and each is ruled by various devils and demons...i.e. Mephisto rules a hell dimension, Satannish rules another, Hela and Pluto (Hades) rule yet other hell-like dimensions, etc, etc...

Dana

[Le Messor]

Marvel's hell dimensions are different than any Biblical hell too, since there are many of them and each is ruled by various devils and demons...i.e. Mephisto rules a hell dimension...

Yes, it's basically based on what the writers think will make a good story rather than anything theological.

Also, after the Wolverine issues in question, this one is ruled by Puck, at least until he gets out.

~ Le Messor
"Intellectuals deal in abstractions. It's much safer that way. Writers take risks. They deal in anecdotes and parables."
~ Kay Boyle