The Post-Byrne positivity thread

[Phil]

Some points raised on another thread got me thinking about what I consider essential AF after Byrne, so I put it to all of you:

What are YOUR top 5 non-Byrne Alpha Flight elements?

It can be story-arcs, single panels, character development/detail/changes or even new characters themselves, be it in the pages of an AF title or elsewhere.

All I want is positive opinions, so if someone likes something that you don't, lets just leave it at that; let's assume that everything written is prefaced with IMO and see what comes out of it.

[PWalk]

One item for me was the change in appearance for Box. I never really liked the Byrne aesthetic which always reminded me of a robot gorilla. Instead when armor changed I thought to myself "he looks awesome!"
http://alphaflight.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=1300&c=159

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Judd defending baby Zusha Yu. I could see justifiable self-defense, in that case, given the hint of a lethal backstory.

[Sypes]

Here are things I thought were fun:
1) Box's new look - Agreed with PWalk, if I had the ability to build myself into a robot, I'd make it transformers-like and sort of sexy rather than boxy.
2) Manikin - I know I'm a minority here, but sort of liked him, especially after he could only select one of his kin at a time instead of all four at the same time
3) Evolution of Laura Dean to Pathway - liked how she appear to have grown, got a costume, a code name, etc
4) I also liked how the team went to 3 members, and then grew back enough to split the team to alpha and beta divisions

[Le Messor]

All I want is positive opinions, so if someone likes something that you don't, lets just leave it at that...

SECONDED! (Please, people, make a note of that before posting... nothing personal here, it's just the kind of thing people tend to skim over online.)
Phil, you didn't give us your choices.


One item for me was the change in appearance for Box.

Agreed. I was gonna volunteer this example.


2) Manikin - I know I'm a minority here, but sort of liked him, especially after he could only select one of his kin at a time instead of all four at the same time
3) Evolution of Laura Dean to Pathway - liked how she appear to have grown, got a costume, a code name, etc

I was considering putting in Manikin, and was definitely going to put in Laura Dean and Pathway.

Also, Dreamqueen.

~ Le Messor
"In two words: Im-possible."
~ Samuel Goldwyn

[Flightpath07]

OK, things I liked, post-Byrne, in the AF world, off the top of my noggin:

- Volume II. Sorry, I LIKED it! No, it wasn't a classic superhero tale, but it sure had me riveted when i read it. I do think it was brilliant writing. I especially like when the kids commandeer the jeep and go off to the restaurant and meet up with Mesmero, that was AWESOME!
- Yukon Jack - As i have stated many times before, I think he was a great character, and am really sorry nobody is using him. He reminds me of classic Thor, classic Sub-Mariner ("Imperious Rex!"), this dude who thinks he is a god and so is all cocky and stuff. Great, great character.
- Chaos War one-shot, where McCann writes our heroes being reunited with the dead. Those few short scenes were worth all the pain Bendis caused (hate to admit that). And even the artwork for those panels, simplistic though it was, captured the mood perfectly. The genuine joy they shared on being reunited, and the concern for where Puck was; very touching.
- Kara kidnapping Northstar. Best teen crush story ever told in comics.
- Norma Osborne being outwitted by Aurora's multiple personalities.
- The Wolverine issues where he goes after Wild Child, when Heather gets hurt by him. For some reason, i cannot recall which issues these are...

[rplass]

- The Wolverine issues where he goes after Wild Child, when Heather gets hurt by him. For some reason, i cannot recall which issues these are...

Marvel Comics Presents 51 Jun 1990
Marvel Comics Presents 52 Jun 1990
Marvel Comics Presents 53 Jul 1990

[Flightpath07]

Marvel Comics Presents 51 Jun 1990
Marvel Comics Presents 52 Jun 1990
Marvel Comics Presents 53 Jul 1990

Thanks Rob!

[Le Messor]

- Volume II. Sorry, I LIKED it!

Don't apologise; it's your tastes. I'm pretty sure others here liked it, too.


- Yukon Jack - As i have stated many times before, I think he was a great character, and am really sorry nobody is using him. He reminds me of classic Thor, classic Sub-Mariner ("Imperious Rex!"), this dude who thinks he is a god and so is all cocky and stuff. Great, great character.

Now that you put it that way, I'm beginning to see why you like him.


- Kara kidnapping Northstar. Best teen crush story ever told in comics.

Love it!


- Norma Osborne being outwitted by Aurora's multiple personalities.

I suspect you mean Norman here.


- The Wolverine issues where he goes after Wild Child, when Heather gets hurt by him. For some reason, i cannot recall which issues these are...

MC--- mutts. Rob beat me to it.

~ Le Messor
"In Walden, New York, you're not allowed to give a drink of water to anyone unless you have a permit."

[Alphan East]

5 Things from the post-Byrne era:

1) Persuasion - Absolutely loved this character, since her first appearance. Early on, she reminded me of Kitty Pride when she first joined X-Men. She was one of the few characters that I really thought was given the chance to grow and develop. Really hope she returns somewhere... whether as a hero or a rebel, I don't care.
2) Earthmover - Great potential for this character... would be a great addition to any book.
3) Mansion Alpha - One of the first things I truly liked after Byrne left the series. Away from the Government, huge mansion, secret sub-levels... where else have I seen that ? :)
4) Windshear - Really enjoyed this character, had a unique power in the Marvel Universe, lots of potential for back story arcs.
5) Bedlam - Absolutely one of the creepiest villains I've seen. Very powerful, very psychotic... thought he could be a real bada$$ that could appear from time to time and cause real havoc.

[Phil]

Phil, you didn't give us your choices.
I'm currently a few weeks into re-reading everything and I've just got past Mantlo's last issue, so I'll chime in soon enough when I'm done.

[Flightpath07]

Now that you put it that way, I'm beginning to see why you like him.

As I've also said before, I'd love to see the comedic element of him chasing Snowbird around, calling her his "wife" and telling her to come make little godlings with him, and her telling him to "stop calling me your wife!" and being just disgusted by him. Again, i know there are host of those who'd rather let everything Volume III die, but the comedy aspect of this would be a real tension-reliever in an ongoing AF book.


I suspect you mean Norman here. Well, unless Norman Osborne follows Langkowski's lead and becomes a "Wanda", yes.


Bedlam - Absolutely one of the creepiest villains I've seen. Very powerful, very psychotic... thought he could be a real bada$$ that could appear from time to time and cause real havoc.

Thank you, Alphan East! I had forgotten about Bedlam, and I was racking my poor little brain, trying to remember what it was around that time-frame that i liked...

Totally agree with you on the "creepy" part.

As for Windshear, i always enjoyed him as (A) a seemingly (in my eyes, anyways)reluctant hero, and (B) a great mentor and teacher for the younger heroes.

Earthmover? Yes, good potential as well. In my mind, i have always expanded his power-set of earth-based powers to include teleportation (as long as he and others are touching terra firma) and calling upon the dead buried near him to aid him or speak with him. Adds a bit of creepiness to him, as well?

[Le Messor]

I'm currently a few weeks into re-reading everything and I've just got past Mantlo's last issue, so I'll chime in soon enough when I'm done.

Cool! Enjoy!


Earthmover? Yes, good potential as well. In my mind, i have always expanded his power-set of earth-based powers to include teleportation (as long as he and others are touching terra firma) and calling upon the dead buried near him to aid him or speak with him. Adds a bit of creepiness to him, as well?

It's been a looooooong time since I've read his issues, but... he's an earth bender? I didn't think much of his name as anything other than something vaguely mystical.
I've always thought of him as a sort of Shaman's apprentice.

~ Le Messor
"Incorrigible punster - Do not incorrige."
~ button

[Ryan Maxwell]

Alpha lived after Byrne? I'm still waiting for issue 29 to come out. ;)

Seriously, though, I have read next to no AF since he left the title. I did enjoy the last series, with a couple reservations. I thought it was a ginormous step in the right direction of getting a regular series off the ground. The Jimenez covers were awful purty.

[Le Messor]

Alpha lived after Byrne? I'm still waiting for issue 29 to come out.

Lol!

[Flightpath07]

I didn't think much of his name as anything other than something vaguely mystical.

As stated in the Alphanex Wiki;

"When dawn arrives he is awakened by Wolverine, who instructs him to remove his hand to see his totem. It's the worm totem, which means he is an Earthmover."

"Earthmover's magical abilties were never fully stated but he is the natural equivalent to what Professor Xavier refers to as an omega mutant."

"Chuck's totem is the worm totem, which means he is a Earthmover as his name states. The full extent of what this totem does or what it means was never stated."

What we have seen of him, is that he can cause rock golems to come out of the ground and attack. Or something like that, anyways.

[Le Messor]

But can he use his feet to see?

2654

~ Le Messor
"In which level of metalanguage are you now speaking?"

[EccentricSage]

I'll have to think about it more, but one would be the Bachelor/Bacheloret party. When I first got it, it was just ok, didn't have any plot development in it, but had a really cute ending. I didn't realize until recently just how big of an impact that silly issue had on me. Whenever I think of that particular Alpha Flight line up, THAT is how I remember them, and it really makes me wish Marvel's comics still had the heart that they used to. It really made me believe the characters as human beings, and empathize with them even more.

Then there's that issue (issues?) where Alpha Flight are in Dream Queen's dimension, modeled to look like New York, and they have no clue what is going on. At first when the 'dark' versions of heroes started attacking (if I remember correctly, it was Lann the Sorcerer's doing?), I thought it seemed a bit lame, though damn if I wasn't left with a strong impression regarding Lil! It showed that she would not hesitate to kill in self defense, which I like. She's not a bad person, but she's a bad ass who knows where her priorities lay. Next issue I think, was when she's isolated momentarily and Puck with angel wings descents upon her, and it was just such a surreal scene, as he explains to her what's really going on and then proceeds to 'create' Santa and Elvis to help Alpha Flight fight... Priceless. It got even better when Lil is running around the battle field super-punching and super-kicking enemies into non-existence and the rest of Alpha keep asking her how she did that, and she just tells them there's no time and continues clearing the battle field with glee as her team mates look bewildered by the whole trippy scene. OMG, shame the art was so bad. Still loved that part of the story!

I'll post more later. My collection is full of holes and it's been a long time since I've looked at some of them.

[Le Messor]

Then there's that issue (issues?) where Alpha Flight are in Dream Queen's dimension, modeled to look like New York, and they have no clue what is going on.

#75! Love that one! ... 'cept the art.
(I believe it was DreamQueen's doing on her own, not Llan, but I could be wrong.)


I'll post more later. My collection is full of holes and it's been a long time since I've looked at some of them.

That's because holes are really boring to look at.

~ Le Messor
"Ingrate: A man who bites the hand that feeds him, and then complains of indigestion."

[Legerd]

I liked when Windshear took over training Beta Flight. Long before Avengers Academy was even a twinkle in Marvel's eye, the idea of training young super humans to be the next wave of heroes was being done in AF. Not only did Colin get more face time and character development, but we got stories revolving entirely around the teen heroes without the adults there all the time holding their hands, which often made for some hilarious situations.

I want Windshear back. :(

[Flightpath07]

Nice one, Legerd!

Hm...betcha Marvel never even considered making Colin Ashworth Hume a teacher at the Jean Grey Academy, did they?

[cmdrkoenig67]

Heather donning the suit after Mac's death, I really wasn't fond of the way Bill Mantlo did it, but I'm glad she put it on.
I liked Purple Girl/Persuasion and I really liked Windshear, I also liked the new Box design (Madison's first version) and I liked Diamond Lil joining the team. I liked Pestilence, he was a deliciously evil villain...I liked the angle of Crozier using Snowbird's baby as a host body, that was very disturbing (but in that great dramatic way). Loved seeing Talisman back in Omega Flight (wish she could have made an appearance in Vol 4), also enjoyed seeing the Great Beasts back at the beginning of the Chaos War (in the Alpha one-shot). I was happy to see Snowbird's godly family included in the Chaos War. I really liked Volume 4 and would have liked to have seen it continue (but I guess a lot of us feel that way). I liked the art in Volume 3.

I'm sure there are other things I liked beyond Byrne, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment, on what those might be.

Dana

[Wildcard]

I liked Heather becoming the leader. Ive stated this before but it was a nice touch to a great group with such diverse backgrounds to have a strong, female leader which I dont believe was happening at the time in Marvel.
I liked Purple Girl, Manikin and Goblyn
I liked Talisman's costume makeover in Omega Flight and how she was portrayed. She really stepped it up in that series and I was hoping she would get some face time in the most recent series.
I liked Marina's new personality in the most rcent series.
Dreamqueen

Ill list some more as I remember them

[Phil]

1) Alpha Flight #0.1
For me, this was probably the best non-Byrne issue ever. Everything about it worked for me.

2) Mantlo's ideas and plots.
Stick with me here. Although there were times when he kinda went off the reservation, for whatever reason; editorial interference, general boredom, spread over too many books, phoning it in; and times when he just destroyed past continuity, a lot of his basic concepts and plot ideas were(/should have been) really good, if not well written in execution.

3) Windshear.
He's probably my favourite non-Byrne Alphan. I think the revolving writers, combined with the crossovers and the premature end of Volume 1 kinda shortchanged the character. He went from a fresh, original character to quickly becoming a PR man, to quickly becoming a tutor and mentor. Between Niciezia/Lobdell/Furman there wasn't much character development because of the large cast they juggled and the reasons outlined above, but what they managed to do I really took to. I also liked his cameo in Niciezia's Thunderbolts run, which I thought was a nice, respectful touch.

4) Wolverine #172
I know Tieri got a lot of stick for his use of Alphans in Weapon X (which I liked, but thats by the by), I thought this issue (plus the end of #171) was a nice little issue where AF show up to stop Wolverine from getting his clock cleaned. I liked Chen's artwork a lot too.

5) Alternate AF's.
Kinda a cop-out and cheating a bit by lumping a few together, but What If #59 & 62 just because of their general respect for the team and an interesting look at how things could have worked out with Logan. Plus more using Stitch & The First Flight team in the latter issue.

Honourable Mentions:-

Dale Eaglesham's Alphans - I umm'ed and urr'ed about including this, but couldn't justify a whole choice on art alone. However, everything Dale touched was gold. I could have this man draw the team forever.
Cap's respect of Puck - I can't remember which exact issue it was, but I think it was in one of Web of Spider-Man #104-106 during the Infinity Crusade, and it always stuck with me as a great idea for a future plot point.

[Le Messor]

2) Mantlo's ideas and plots.
Stick with me here. Although there were times when he kinda went off the reservation, for whatever reason; editorial interference, general boredom, spread over too many books, phoning it in...
a lot of his basic concepts and plot ideas were(/should have been) really good, if not well written in execution.

(Not to mention his burnout / nervous breakdown.)
I see what you did there, and yeah, I can agree with that.


Weapon X (which I liked, but thats by the by),

Me, too! It came across as exactly the kind of thing that fails to appeal - in fact, drives me away - but when I read it (years after the fact) I actually found it pretty good. A lot lighter than I expected.

~ Le Messor
Manny: Is space hot?
Bernard: Of course it is, where do you think we get pineapples from?

[EccentricSage]

Since we're on the subject of Mantlo, and despite the fact I'm still missing a lot of his run...

In the issues I have of Mantlo's run, I liked his characterization of Madison Jeffries and Roger Bochs a lot, until he did what he did to Bochs. Same with his handling of Puck. I liked the dialogue untill he completely screwed the characters up. It's all so promising untill it descends into madness. Real shame. (Does Mantlo have some sort of secret hatred of disabled and differently abled people?!) Sorry I strayed into negitivity there, but you can't praise one part of what Mantlo did without grimacing about the end results, I don't think. The Wanda thing was a mess, but an interesting mess, and I liked Wanda's dialogue. I also really liked Northstar in the issues I have, with Aurora turning into an evil ***** and Walter's death, I fealt like Northstar became much more lovable and relateable as he had to open up to people more. The part where he said he wept over Walter's death, too, was a nice touch, and I like the way he made it sound as though Northstar had some atraction to Walter... it seemed to me he wrote Northstar gay following Byrne's example pretty well. Northstar was a real person to me in those issues, amidst all the bat**** crazy and bad characterization that started to build up.

Also, was it during Mantlo's run that Madison Jeffries jumped out of a plain to hijack a Sentinal mid-air? My god, that was awesome. And that feat was more realistically within Madison's established abilities and know-how. It's the sort of thing I'd like to have seen more of.

I liked HOW Vindicator was introduced, it was a damn good start, and Puck's resistance out of concern for her. But other than that, I disliked the dialogue. The action and intent was exactly what I wanted to see, even if the dialogue made Heather seem like a ***** to me at least. I'm glad that didn't stick! lol

And off the topic of Mantlo, I second the Dream Queen love. I'm not enamored with all the stories she was in, but her concept and design is awesome, and I want to see more of her. She has a lot of potential, given a consistent writer and a decent artist. She would be great for a trippy horror type story done right.

Which reminds me of the Lann the Sorcerer story... I disliked a lot about it, but I loved how it served as a device to bring back some of the Omega Flight characters and involve the Beta Flight characters more, and I liked how it worked to really mix up the team roster a bit. I may not have been satisfied with Wildchild's characterization (or lack there-of), but I loved Lil's characterization, as well as Lil joining Alpha Flight and resolving past tensions. I couldn't help but laugh when Nemesis showed up all high and mighty and Lil decided it was time to choke a *****. May not have been the best decission, but it was the fun decission. lol

[Le Messor]

Also, was it during Mantlo's run that Madison Jeffries jumped out of a plain to hijack a Sentinal mid-air?

#43, wasn't it? That was in Mantlo's run.