Alpha Discussion at Fan Expo '13

[Phil]

The panel ended on a high note with a fan asking if the panelists disliked Canadian superhero teams. The room rolled with hearty laughter, and Brevoort said, "I guess it's no surprise that this is the show in which we get more Alpha Flight questions than any other."

"No there's no dislike for Canadian super teams or for Alpha Flight in particular," Brevoort explained. "What there is unfortunately though is a difficulty that we've had in keeping Alpha Flight viable as a series for the long term. We've tried a bunch of times now, and every time it could just be that we didn't hit it right. We didn't have the right creators. We didn't have the right idea. We didn't market it effectively. For one reason or another we've just not had any success at making a long term go function with Alpha Flight, but we love the characters."


"It's not impossible that we would do another Alpha Flight series," he added. "I tend to think myself that I would be more likely to try and do something else. I'd be more likely to try some other character in Canada or another character that comes out of Canada rather than trying to do the same thing again that I haven't been able to make work three or four times already. I don't think the reason Alpha Flight didn't work is because it was a Canadian team. I just think there has been something about it that hasn't caught, and it's not the only Marvel thing that hasn't caught. We just have to hit on the right kind of thing."

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=47543

[Ryan Maxwell]

At least he knew his audience enough to shoulder the blame as a company instead of turning into a no-fan-support problem. Excepting the most recent series, which didn't get a fair enough chance to succeed in my opinion, AF has been treated as a joke by Marvel for far too many years.

[Flightpath07]

We just have to hit on the right kind of thing.

For his own health and safety, i'd avoiding hitting on this Thing...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a3/Thing_v2_1_coverart.jpg

...and maybe go with the following "Sharon Ventura" edition, instead?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c9/She-Thing.jpg

[Alphan East]

If they could find a writer and artist committed to the characters over the long haul, and actually give it time to grow, they could have the best of both worlds. An Alpha Flight series using some, if not all, of the originals, then gradually add in new dynamic characters. They don't seem to be giving series enough time anymore... if they're not a consistent best seller, they're canceled and replaced with a new "Issue 1" of something just to garner more sales.

[Mokole]

I like your ideas Alphan but will Marvel ever do what they did with She-Hulk and Spider-Girl, let them have a run and keep plugging?

[Le Messor]

On the other side of things, they seem to have only three hit teams: The X-Men, The Avengers, and The Fantastic Four.
It'd be nice if they could sustain more niche books, but something just doesn't seem to be hitting with that.


For his own health and safety, i'd avoiding hitting on this Thing...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a3/Thing_v2_1_coverart.jpg
...and maybe go with the following "Sharon Ventura" edition, instead?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c9/She-Thing.jpg

Could be worse:
3199
or:
3200
Now what for he goin' hittin' on that thing?

~ Le Messor
"Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about."

[Phil]

They don't seem to be giving series enough time anymore... if they're not a consistent best seller, they're canceled and replaced with a new "Issue 1" of something just to garner more sales.
Could you afford to lose your own money each month just to make less than 20,000 people happy?


I like your ideas Alphan but will Marvel ever do what they did with She-Hulk and Spider-Girl, let them have a run and keep plugging?
They still sold more than AF did, though...

[Flightpath07]

Q: If we are going to compare apples with things that sound, taste, and smell like apples...WHEN did She-Hulk and Spider-Girl sell more than Alpha Flight? And how does that time period compare to nowadays, when talking about sales overall?

I hate to always throw a monkey-wrench into things ("but sometimes the monkey just won't let go! ba-da-boom! thank you, i'll be here all night! all you vegans, try the vegetables; all you non-vegans, try the vegans!")...

...but if we are going to compare sales from different eras/time-periods/years, then number of items sold mean far less than percentage of that time's market does.

(Stupid monkey! Why can't you just let go!)

[Phil]

She-Hulk & Spider-Girl were concurrent with Vol.3

I'll try and drag the numbers up but there's a lot to go back through.

[Flightpath07]

She-Hulk & Spider-Girl were concurrent with Vol.3

I'll try and drag the numbers up but there's a lot to go back through.

Sorry Phil, its the monkey's fault, I swear! Besides, facts interest me.

[Le Messor]

We've tried a bunch of times now, and every time it could just be that we didn't hit it right. We didn't have the right creators. We didn't have the right idea. We didn't market it effectively.

They still sold more than AF did, though...

The things that keep coming up again and again, though, when we have this discussion, are:
They didn't market it effectively (barely at all), which is on them.
And that, iirc, they cut v4 from ongoing to limited before issue #1 was out. Which makes it hard to believe that was a decision based on sales.
(Not impossible - I know of pre-orders - but how would people know about it if it wasn't marketed, and they hadn't seen it on shelves yet?)

~ Le Messor

[Phil]

They marketed the heck out of Volume 4 though.

And Volume 4 was originally a mini-series, which was upgraded to an ongoing circa #4 based on the sales of #1 and then downgraded to its original mini-series length circa #6 based on the sales of #2-3.

[-K-M-]

Yeah I was sad that it got downgraded again, but I don't blame Marvel. Didn't it pretty much have a 20,000 unit drop from #1 sales to #8 sales? It was still doing better then several other Marvel on-goings, so I was confused why AF was cancelled and not them. However, those other titles soon were on the chopping block after Alpha

[Le Messor]

They marketed the heck out of Volume 4 though.
And Volume 4 was originally a mini-series, which was upgraded to an ongoing circa #4 based on the sales of #1 and then downgraded to its original mini-series length circa #6 based on the sales of #2-3.

Okay. That wasn't my recollection, but those aren't things I pay a huge amount of attention to, so me being wrong is as shocking as the scene in the end where the guy in the wheelchair stands up saying 'I could walk the whole time!'.

~ Le Messor
Calvin: Look, Hobbes, I need you to come to school with me and show Moe a little fang, OK? You don't need to kill him or anything. Just give 'im something to think about on the way to surgery. He usually comes after me during recess, so we'll get him then. Hey, you don't have rabies do you?
Hobbes: Certainly not!
Calvin: Rats. Well I suppose he'd at least have to get a tetanus shot.

[Phil]

Didn't it pretty much have a 20,000 unit drop from #1 sales to #8 sales?

http://alphaflight.net/content.php?587-January-2012-Sales-Figures

#1 - 46,851
#2 - 26,862
#3 - 24,872
#4 - 23,242
#5 - 20,731
#6 - 19,316
#7 - 18,416
#8 - 18,408

so a 28,443 drop between 1-8.

Had it carried on around the 40,000 mark (like Uncanny X-Force (http://alphaflight.net/content.php?763-Sales-Figures-For-July-2013-Titles) is) it would have kept ongoing.

Looking at it, by #5 it had reached the point that Astonishing X-Men is at now and that too is being cancelled.

[Flightpath07]

They marketed the heck out of Volume 4 though. I was going to mention this, but held off as i did not want to play both sides of the field in this debate; too mentally exhausting.

[Jason Eberly]

A couple thoughts on the whole matter...

I wonder if mini-series have the same sales numbers standards as ongoings? As in, would a mini (not an event mini, though) that sold 25,000 be viewed as a success whereas an ongoing selling the same amount could easily be "on the chopping block".

I dislike the trend in Marvel these days that if a hero (or team) doesn't have their own title, they tend to get dumped on by every no-name villain that comes along. How about some Alpha appearances (as I consider the Canadian characters in the recent Avengers story as "Fodder Flight") were they actually come off as being helpful and maybe even contribute to saving the day without them being decimated? Some positive appearances might help garner some fan interest.

[Phil]

I wonder if mini-series have the same sales numbers standards as ongoings? As in, would a mini (not an event mini, though) that sold 25,000 be viewed as a success whereas an ongoing selling the same amount could easily be "on the chopping block".
The same standards, yes, but with a mini at least they know that any loss will be temporary as there is only a limited shelf life ie. while it's still not success at least the loss can't drop and drop and drop; there'll be an end and quickly.

[Le Messor]

How about some Alpha appearances (as I consider the Canadian characters in the recent Avengers story as "Fodder Flight") where they actually come off as being helpful and maybe even contribute to saving the day without them being decimated? Some positive appearances might help garner some fan interest.

That'd be cool. Another Uncanny #139, or something like that!

~ Le Messor
"Life is like a movie. Only you can't pick your genre."
~ Billy

[Jason Eberly]

That'd be cool. Another Uncanny #139, or something like that!

Exactly! You look at their appearances prior to getting their own series, and they were either formidable opponents (Uncanny #120-121, Sasquatch in Hulk Annual #8, etc.) or competent allies (Uncanny #139-140, Machine Man # <whatever issues those were>, Hulk #272, Marvel Team-Up Annual #7 (Okay, I know that last one came out after the AF series started, but not by too long).

Unfortunately, as AF went along in their own series, creators seemed to turn the concept of Byrne's dysfunctional family into AF being a bunch of incompetent, easily manipulated buffoonish cannon fodder (Seagle, Lobdell, Bendis, Hickman). FVL and Pak seemed to be on a better track of rehabilitating their image a bit, but I think it was too early for AF to get their own series again. They need some positive PR across the MU for awhile first, some good buzz.

Maybe then...

[Le Messor]

Yep - but I definitely prefer them as competent allies, so they're set up as good guys first. (Though, opponent to the Hulk - that can still be a good guy!)

It was Machine Man #18 (which I recently reviewed on this site somewhere).

~ Le Messor
"Lockwood's Long Shot: The chances of getting eaten up by a lion on Main Street aren't one in a million, but once would be enough."

[Legerd]

Exactly! You look at their appearances prior to getting their own series, and they were either formidable opponents (Uncanny #120-121, Sasquatch in Hulk Annual #8, etc.) or competent allies (Uncanny #139-140, Machine Man # <whatever issues those were>, Hulk #272, Marvel Team-Up Annual #7 (Okay, I know that last one came out after the AF series started, but not by too long).

Unfortunately, as AF went along in their own series, creators seemed to turn the concept of Byrne's dysfunctional family into AF being a bunch of incompetent, easily manipulated buffoonish cannon fodder (Seagle, Lobdell, Bendis, Hickman). FVL and Pak seemed to be on a better track of rehabilitating their image a bit, but I think it was too early for AF to get their own series again. They need some positive PR across the MU for awhile first, some good buzz.

Maybe then...

This is what I've been saying. Marvel writers have spent 20+ years turning AF into jokes, so despite all the good work done on volume 4--the writing, artwork, interviews, advertising--it was a steep uphill climb for the title which ultimately failed. Most of the fans reading nowadays probably weren't even born when Byrne wrote AF, and would more than likely only be aware of the team as the incompetent losers depicted for the last 2-3 decades. It will take time and guest appearances as a powerful, competent team before fans will accept them, and then Marvel might have some success with a volume 5.

[Flightpath07]

This is what I've been saying. Marvel writers have spent 20+ years turning AF into jokes, so despite all the good work done on volume 4--the writing, artwork, interviews, advertising--it was a steep uphill climb for the title which ultimately failed. Most of the fans reading nowadays probably weren't even born when Byrne wrote AF, and would more than likely only be aware of the team as the incompetent losers depicted for the last 2-3 decades. It will take time and guest appearances as a powerful, competent team before fans will accept them, and then Marvel might have some success with a volume 5.

Legerd, there's a flip point to that, unfortunately. That is a lot of work for Marvel to do, for a team that does not currently have its own series, all in the hopes of one day getting the team its own title. Especially after how many times Alpha has already failed.

Dang, i'm turning into Phil! lol. (love ya, Phil!)

[Phil]

:-\"

It's also not unique to AF though; Winter Guard, MI-5, New Warriors etc. are all in a similar boat.

[Le Messor]

Winter Guard, MI-5, New Warriors etc. are all in a similar boat.

We call it the Titanic.

[Flightpath07]

We call it the Titanic.

*looks around for Celine Dion, with a shudder rolling up and down his spine*

[Legerd]

Legerd, there's a flip point to that, unfortunately. That is a lot of work for Marvel to do, for a team that does not currently have its own series, all in the hopes of one day getting the team its own title. Especially after how many times Alpha has already failed.

Dang, I'm turning into Phil! lol. (love ya, Phil!)

I quite agree, it will be a lot of work, but whose fault is that? I never said it would be easy, but Marvel needs to broaden their line of comics, because fans are starting to notice how thin it's become. Even DC has figured out they need to bring in more non-American characters/teams, the question is will they do a decent job of it, or muck it up?

[Le Messor]

Muck it up.

[Flightpath07]

That's one vote for Mucking, no votes for Good. I'm voting Undecided (but only because I cannot vote Independent).

[Le Messor]

Ooh, please don't remind me. We've just had our election.

[Flightpath07]

I wanted to insert an election joke here, but couldn't find any worth the time. Sort of like politicians.

[Le Messor]

Yeah, that's the problem I had voting last week.
An election joke? Hmm...
The election. LoL!

[Chris]

:-\"

It's also not unique to AF though; Winter Guard, MI-5, New Warriors etc. are all in a similar boat.

Looks like Marvel might be reforming the New Warriors. Speedball and Justice were in Nova 7. It's easier to showcase a team when one your teammates has his own series.

[Flightpath07]

It's easier to showcase a team when one your teammates has his own series.

Dear Marvel,

Please make a Manikin series.

[-K-M-]

file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif

It's also not unique to AF though; Winter Guard, MI-5, New Warriors etc. areall in a similar boat.

As well as Invaders (which is coming back), Defenders, Excalibur and others groups such as the Order, Loners, Runaways, etc. It’s hard to be a team book nowadays if you’re not the Avengers, Fantastic Four or the X-Men.

[Flightpath07]

As well as Invaders (which is coming back), Defenders, Excalibur and others groups such as the Order, Loners, Runaways, etc. It’s hard to be a team book nowadays if you’re not the Avengers, Fantastic Four or the X-Men.

And as much as I understand Marvel's viewpoint on that (we can only market what people want to buy, without going broke ourselves - no, that's not a direct quote, just my thoughts), i also think that in the end, they (and we, as consumers) have to lay in the bed we have made.

Once you make a marketing mess (keep pushing the same few titles until that is all that anybody recognizes or cares about), it is near impossible to get out of it. In this day and age, we are a consumer-sheep market. We buy what we are told we need.

You want to make Alpha Flight, or Invaders, or Defenders, or Excalibur, or The Super Sweet Japanese Cuddly Animals Group, into the next big thing for consumers? MAKE them the next big thing!

Yup, i mean introduce a new group (new to many of the watchers, anyways) on the big screen, tie them into an Avengers movie, put out figurines, posters, comics, give them their own movie afterwards starring excellent actors.

It COULD be done. Really, it is all up to the marketing committee. They know HOW to market the next big thing (or, at least, they BETTER know how to!), it just comes down to, do they want to? After all, it takes a LOT of work to wake people up to the fact that there is more to life than the mere dribble they have been fed (see the plot of The Matrix movie as a great example of that) thus far.

[DIGGER]

Maybe Marvel's Agents of Shield will turn into that type of show having glimpses of existing characters in the Marvel universe (easter egg style if you will) just to test the market of peak the viewers interest.

[Mokole]

True. It's up to the company to drum up interest. What company creates products, puts them out, and doesn't try and market them as best they can? Who sits and waits to see if anyone will buy it? Great way to lose money. Where would Apple be if they didn't advertise the snot out of new products in ways to grab and hold attention? Having worked in publishing I know that when the publisher puts half an effort into selling a product the product fails every time. IT was quite annoying to see good work get shuffled aside because the bosses didn't want to put the time or money into the project, but put out a well-known commodity and they 'saw value in promotion' all of a sudden because it was easy. I got out years ago.

[Le Messor]

Once you make a marketing mess (keep pushing the same few titles until that is all that anybody recognizes or cares about), it is near impossible to get out of it. In this day and age, we are a consumer-sheep market. We buy what we are told we need.

In my case, I'm getting tired of reading X-Men, but that's all I'm finding enjoyable. Wolverine and The X-Men is good, Wolverine is good, Amazing X-Men looks good... the rest just lacks appeal for me.
I'd love something good that isn't X-Avengers, but at the moment I'm just happy to find something I can genuinely enjoy. I'm not gonna be picky about the idea that it's 'big'.


You want to make Alpha Flight, or Invaders, or Defenders, or Excalibur, or The Super Sweet Japanese Cuddly Animals Group, into the next big thing for consumers? MAKE them the next big thing!

Also true!

... Big Hero 6 is getting a movie...


Maybe Marvel's Agents of Shield will turn into that type of show having glimpses of existing characters in the Marvel universe (easter egg style if you will) just to test the market of peak the viewers interest.

Yeah! That'd be excellent!

~ Le Messor
"Life is like an onion: You peel off layer after layer, then you find there is nothing in it."

[Phil]

True. It's up to the company to drum up interest. What company creates products, puts them out, and doesn't try and market them as best they can? Who sits and waits to see if anyone will buy it? Great way to lose money. Where would Apple be if they didn't advertise the snot out of new products in ways to grab and hold attention? Having worked in publishing I know that when the publisher puts half an effort into selling a product the product fails every time. IT was quite annoying to see good work get shuffled aside because the bosses didn't want to put the time or money into the project, but put out a well-known commodity and they 'saw value in promotion' all of a sudden because it was easy. I got out years ago.

On the other hand though, if the marketing costs more in time/manpower/wages and expenditure then it's not worth doing.

[Jason Eberly]

Dear Marvel,

Please make a Manikin series.

But only if you can get Meshach Taylor to reprise his role as "Hollywood".

(Props to those who get that.)

[Le Messor]

But only if you can get Meshach Taylor to reprise his role as "Hollywood".

(Props to those who get that.)

Is that a reference to the 80s movie Mannequin? Where the store mannequin comes to life?
Now, now - you wouldn't deny an old man his prop.

[Jason Eberly]

Correct! Your prize is to watch the movie this weekend, all full of Anthony Edwards and Kim Catrell goodness.

And your prop is...a rubber chicken!

[Le Messor]

My prize is watching Mannequin with a rubber chicken? Because I was kind of thinking of doing that anyway...

[Sypes]

Correct! Your prize is to watch the movie this weekend, all full of Anthony Edwards and Kim Catrell goodness.

And your prop is...a rubber chicken!

Was Anthony Edwards in it? I remember Andrew McCarthy and Kim Catrell, but not Anthony. Regardless, loved the movie!

[Flightpath07]

What else could you do with a rubber chicken?!

[Jason Eberly]

Was Anthony Edwards in it? I remember Andrew McCarthy and Kim Catrell, but not Anthony. Regardless, loved the movie!

Yeah, you're right. I always get those two mixed up.

[Flightpath07]

Yeah, you're right. I always get those two mixed up.

You get Anthony Edwards confused with Kim Cattrall?

Should be easy to tell them apart; Anthony can act.

[Jason Eberly]

You get Anthony Edwards confused with Kim Cattrall?

Jason sets up the easy lob, and Flightpath smashes it home!

Oh, wait...this is an Alpha Flight board.

Jason sets up the easy pass, and Flightpath slams the puck into the empty net!

[Flightpath07]

Jason sets up the easy lob, and Flightpath smashes it home!

Oh, wait...this is an Alpha Flight board.

Jason sets up the easy pass, and Flightpath slams the puck into the empty net!

I can't skate. I'm more like a Happy Gilmour on the ice.

[Le Messor]

My skating is more like falling with style.

[Flightpath07]

My skating is more like falling with style.

As long as you got Stiles...

http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0015140/?ref_=fn_al_ch_2

[rplass]

As a moderator, I'm supposed to be locking threads that go off topic and be all 'tut tut...'. However, the complete awesome that is Dylan O'Brien may continue. Proceed as usual.

(I'm a big fan of Teen Wolf, love the show!)

[Le Messor]

Hmm... it is a full moon tonight...

[Flightpath07]

What WAS the topic of this thread?...

Oh, right...Alpha Flight discussion from Fan Expo 2013.

Anybody got any more comments on that?

Or a desire to surf on top of a van?

[Le Messor]

Can't we just shout our comments on Fan Expo out to the street while surfing on top of a van?