Mantlo Inconsistencies

[Jason Eberly]

The title of this thread actually has two meanings.

Love it or hate it, most everyone agrees that Bill Mantlo's run on Alpha Flight was a bit...erratic. In fact, you could say his most consistent trait during this run was its inconsistency.

Now, I know it is a bit of a running joke here on the board, but it got me thinking about Mr. Mantlo's other work through the years. His Incredible Hulk run was really tight, his Rom stuff even more so, and what little of his Micronauts I read seemed consistent in terms of characterization and storytelling. Heck, his run on Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man is one of my five favorite runs for the character.

So I guess my question to the Flight Crew here is...wha' hoppen? Why did Bill Mantlo, a very consistent creator, become so inconsistent on Alpha Flight?

[rplass]

I reject the characterization of Bill Mantlo's work on Alpha Flight as inconsistent. There was one comment that is perceived as troubling for continuity which I believe is widely misinterpreted (the clinic for maladjusted super beings thing), otherwise it's just reader's noticing that he changed around Alpha Flight from the original state. Writers who take over a book change things around. If you call that inconsistency then every writer who ever changed anything in comics is inconsistent, because they all do it.

Also the guy deserves a bit of solemnic respect due to his ongoing health issues, so please temper your responses with this in mind.

[DIGGER]

I agree. I think it is because the core characters were so well liked during the Byrne run that it would have been difficult for any writer to follow him (this also goes for the artwork as well). Usually when a new writer takes over a super team comic (X-Men, Avengers, Justice League) they change up the roster to suit the needs of their storyline because there is such a huge roster of characters to choose from, but when dealing with Alpha the character selection is almost non existent so the characters have to change to fit the story. As a result, things get done to characters that seem so out of character. I wonder how many fans of Spider-man were happy/content with Doc Ock "taking over Peter Parker's body" because guess what------Peter is coming back and it has only been what, a little over a year and a half?

[Jason Eberly]

Also the guy deserves a bit of solemnic respect due to his ongoing health issues, so please temper your responses with this in mind.

I am offended and repulsed by the insinuation of this sentence and ask that this entire thread be removed. Thank you for understanding.

[rplass]

Jason, I prefer to leave the thread. It's a valid discussion to have. I'm just hoping people stick to their opinions of his writing, good or bad, and not get vitriolic. You didn't get personal, and actually praised the guy in a respectful way, so there's no insinuation of anything directed to you. My comment was directed at whoever else might respond.

[DIGGER]

I am offended and repulsed by the insinuation of this sentence and ask that this entire thread be removed. Thank you for understanding.
Sorry, but is this an example of erratic? I just took that comment as a suggestion to all who wish to post on this thread to act with decorum and try not to attack Mr. Mantlo. I did not read it as a comment directed at you at all.

[Flightpath07]

I just took that comment as a suggestion to all who wish to post on this thread to act with decorum and try not to attack Mr. Mantlo. I did not read it as a comment directed at you at all.

I agree with Digger.

That being said, no artiste likes feeling like their work needs to be 'tempered', so from a purely artistic viewpoint I also agree with Jason's stance (what I understand of it, anyway).

From my own viewpoint, I think how you treat someone is up to you personally to decide, and thus feel that anyone who feels that Mr Mantlo is fair game, regardless of his health conditions, is in the right as well. provided nobody makes mean comments about his health conditions, that is. Just my two-cents' worth.

Consider me 'on the fence'.

[Jason Eberly]

Great...I'm derailing my own thread.


Jason, I prefer to leave the thread. It's a valid discussion to have. I'm just hoping people stick to their opinions of his writing, good or bad, and not get vitriolic. You didn't get personal, and actually praised the guy in a respectful way, so there's no insinuation of anything directed to you. My comment was directed at whoever else might respond.

In the 2 1/2 years I've visited (and thoroughly enjoyed) this site, there have been many "digs" at Mantlo's work, but never have I seen anyone disrespect the man by making fun of his tragic injuries or applying them to the quality of his work. I have much more faith in the posters here than to think anyone would do that and history strengthens that belief. I also can't remember ever seen any kind of "warning" like the one I take offense to when anyone else has brought up Mantlo, be it his work or his current state.

So this, in addition to the ridiculous censoring of a perfectly reasonable word I used about a month ago, even though it could might maybe be possibly used in a derogatory fashion (in which case, many common words should also be redacted) and you may understand my aggravation.

I figured it to be easier just to remove the thread than to have it become a "thing".

There...that is off my chest. Intentional or unintentional, it's how I feel and I really enjoy Mega Stuffed Oreos, even though you only get half as many cookies in a package.

[Mokole]

Well, he did make some good characters, but I am definitely not qualified to comment on the overall quality of his work. Just me being me. I don't read as much as others.

[Le Messor]

I haven't read much of his stuff, but what I've read that wasn't AF was usually good.
I think that means Contest of Champions and a couple of issues of Rom (and no, it's not a coincidence that they had Alpha Flight in them).

Some writers are good at one thing, not so good at others - look at Fabian Nicieza. Linkara, who only reviews bad comics, has had to yell 'at him' "Stop showing up on my show! You're a good writer!".

I think in the case of Nicieza, it's because he takes any work he can, and if it's something he doesn't care about, it shows.

The going theory with Mantlo is that he was burning out as a writer when he took over Alpha Flight; there are stories that he was asking the editor for story ideas, for example.
The problems I have with it go a lot further than the 'Clinic for Maladjusted Superbeings' (which I always took literally). Some of them have to do with the artwork and NOT Mantlo - it just wasn't as good as Byrne's, and felt more cramped.

He did a lot, though, to undermine the characters and write them horribly out of character. Shaman as a whiner; Puck as a whiner. Heather, the killer.

I've never liked his origin for Nemesis, and always wanted to know Byrne's (which is impossible; I doubt Byrne knows what it is, now).

There are other things, but it's first thing in the morning.

~ Le Messor
"A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory."

[Le Messor]

the ridiculous censoring of a perfectly reasonable word I used about a month ago

btw, I always figured that was an automatic program that did that, not something anybody at the site did on purpose.
And I've been telling that story irl ever since, as an example of some of the stupid things that happen ever since. 8-[

MODERATOR: The censoring is automated.

[Tawmis]

So I enjoyed Mantlo's ROM. (Though at the end, it got a little wonky). Same as Micronauts - it started really strong, but by the end, it was grasping at straws. (In both cases, I am not even entirely sure if Mantlo was still writing either title). That said - when you look at the first 12 issues of the first Alpha Flight run, you have - almost a perfect run of comics. We had some character development, we had things hinted at, and some things just come out. We got some new villains. We got some back story.

But Byrne, just before he left - also left Alpha Flight in a bad spot. He had killed Vindicator, leaving them essentially without a leader. Sasquatch is "being influenced by the Great Beast" that he represents - and Snowbird rips his heart out and kills him. So now, two core members are already out - and we're only 24 issues in (just noticed he killed Vindicator in issue #12, then pretty much kills Water in issue #24).

Now, without looking who wrote it - but I believe it was Mantlo - issue #32 was a turning point for me. Everything up until then, even beyond issue #12 was pretty solid. Issue #32 (with Puck/Razaar) was something that made me scratch my head. Then Shaman, who is probably one of my favorite members of Alpha Flight changed - he went from Shaman to Talisman, and his entire personality changed. Pestilence kills Snowbird. So now, the entire foundation of the team has been drastically changed. Sometimes this works (when the "All New X-Men" were introduced - I mean, Nightcrawler, Storm, Colossus, etc). And sometimes - in this case, it didn't work. Where as the X-Men had been going for a considerably long time - so a change could be needed to shake it up - Alpha Flight was barely three, almost 4 years into publication - with absolutely no real history behind them other than what was given in this series. It's not like these characters were appearing everywhere else - that there was no wiggle room to write some great stories with them as they were. I don't know who wrote the DreamQueen stuff - but that was a good read - followed by, Llan the Corrupter or whatever his name was. Perhaps the WORSE villain. EVER. And even DRAWN horribly. The stories were falling apart by this time (again, off hand not sure if it was Mantlo writing at this point) - but yeah, this wasn't even close to a spec of resemblance of the Alpha Flight I knew. But... I kept collecting, all the way through #130. And the stories were just floundering everywhere (like when Alpha Flight was wearing the X-Factor uniforms? WTF? I know by this point it wasn't Mantlo).

I think he may get a bad rap - because he was the writer to follow after Byrne. And that is a tough act to follow. Especially when the art was also top notch. You follow that up - with a team you probably don't know much about, and a brand new artist, who doesn't come close to what Byrne was giving us - you're pretty much handing him a gun that's fully loaded and challenging him to a game of Russian roulette.

[Le Messor]

I think you're right about a lot of things, Tawmis. (Oh, and 32 would've been Mantlo - he took over right after Byrne. DreamQueen I believe started off under him, but fully developed under James Hudnall; who was also partly responsible (with editorial interference) for Llan.)

I do think, though, that Byrne could've been followed up from. Who by? Back then? Not sure. Claremont probably could've done a decent job with it (at the time). Perez / Wolfman - that would've been awesome! :D Denny O'Neal Adams, perhaps... perhaps.

I think, though, that Mantlo was just out of ideas by then.

~ Le Messor
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm."

[Jason Eberly]

I noticed I never posted my conspiracy theory here (I shared it with Phil last week).

At the time, Byrne was pretty much at the height of his popularity (and arguably, talent). However, we know now that he wasn't enjoying writing AF. I am wondering if he flexed some of his muscle to take over a book that he wanted to do...Incredible Hulk (though he only lasted six issues before being lured to DC to relaunch some obscure character). He seemed to have a good working relationship with the others working on AF, so wanted to bring them to Hulk with him to keep things smooth for him.

Of course, this left Bill (and crew) forced onto a title that they may not have had any interest in or plans for, thereby resulting in the (in my estimation) half-hearted effort we seemed to get on AF.

Again, just a conspiracy theory.

Oh, and Boris Badenov was the second shooter from the grassy knoll. I think he was aiming at a squirrel, though.

[Flightpath07]

Oh, and Boris Badenov was the second shooter from the grassy knoll. I think he was aiming at a squirrel, though.

Yes, he was aiming at the squirrel, but he moosed.

[Chris]

I agree with Tawmis. Alpha Flight's problems didn't start when Mantlo and Mignola took over with issue 29. Byrne killing off second core character Sasquatch in issue 24 was a big mistake. Putting Walter's spirit in the Box armor was somewhat amusing for a couple of issues but then they got rid of Walter completely by issue 29, another big mistake. Back in issue 28, Walter should have asked the Beyonder to get his original body back. But then that Alpha Flight / Hulk crossover story would have gone differently, if not at all (which probably would have been better in hindsight.)

[Le Messor]

I can believe that being taken off a book you're enjoying doing (Hulk) and onto one you don't care about (Alpha Flight) would make for a bad book. And I can believe that Byrne had the clout to put himself onto Hulk if he wanted.

So, Jason, your theory is plausible. And, not really a conspiracy.

Also, we have a Bullwinkle Street in my city. (Well, it's Veronica Bullwinkel or something...)

~ Le Messor
"Hard work pays off in the future; laziness pays off now."

[Tawmis]

I agree with Tawmis. Alpha Flight's problems didn't start when Mantlo and Mignola took over with issue 29. Byrne killing off second core character Sasquatch in issue 24 was a big mistake. Putting Walter's spirit in the Box armor was somewhat amusing for a couple of issues but then they got rid of Walter completely by issue 29, another big mistake. Back in issue 28, Walter should have asked the Beyonder to get his original body back. But then that Alpha Flight / Hulk crossover story would have gone differently, if not at all (which probably would have been better in hindsight.)

You know, mixed with the other post about the Conspiracy theory - it makes you wonder about the HULK story some more right? Was Walter REALLY needed to be killed to set up the HULK story? Or was this a way for someone (Byrne?) - to essentially say, "Hey Alpha Flight fans - in the event you didn't know - I am going to be doing the Hulk comic! And here's how I am going to transition him - and make every Alpha Flight fan know! And perhaps drag some Alpha Flight fans with me over to Hulk!"

Because, really - the entire story of Walter being killed seemed to be one huge set up for the HULK storyline. I feel that could have certainly gone differently. Why not have a story where Walter goes after someone (a Great Beast) and they fall into the portal together and it closes behind them? Then do the Hulk story line, where they end up pulling out Hulk. That would have at least left the door open for the next writer to reach out to try and rescue Sasquatch and find him alive - rather than being forced to do the soul in Smart Alec, to Box, to Snowbird's body, as woman, then back to a man....

[Flightpath07]

rather than being forced to do the soul in Smart Alec, to Box, to Snowbird's body, as woman, then back to a man....

...which set the bar really high for other writers to take other Alphans and screw up their back story so as to be as unrecognizable as Sas's had just become. I mean, really, Alpha Flight gets treated way worse than Doom Patrol even, think about the back-stories (nowadays) of Mac, Heather, Puck, Sasquatch, Snowbird...like, seriously?!

So very, very frustrating, what was done to those characters. All of them, so very ill-treated.

When I think about it, it is no wonder that AF doesn't have a series right now. Seriously, without a complete reboot, a la New 52 by DC, how could anybody write these characters and expect anybody but a diehard fan to follow them! Too much confusion. Such a shame.

[Jason Eberly]

...which set the bar really high for other writers to take other Alphans and screw up their back story so as to be as unrecognizable as Sas's had just become.

How is Sasquatch's backstory unrecognizable. He's still a scientist who, in an attempt to duplicate Bruce Banner's creation of the Hulk under controlled circumstances, merged with a mystical beast and now turns into a big orange powerhouse named Sasquatch! That's all totally true today. All the stuff that happened in between? It doesn't need to ever be referenced if the writers don't want to. It doesn't mean that all that stuff (for good or ill) never happened, merely that it hasn't changed the origin or current status of the character.


I mean, really, Alpha Flight gets treated way worse than Doom Patrol even, think about the back-stories (nowadays) of Mac, Heather, Puck, Sasquatch, Snowbird...like, seriously?!

While I think Doom Patrol gets more respect than Alpha Flight, they both get treated pretty badly. Of those Alphans you listed, the only ones I think who really differs from their "classic" incarnation are Puck and Heather (of the current group). The rest, though...if you hadn't read a story about Snowbird since, say, the Byrne run, what would you need to be explained to be able to understand her status as of today (or of her last appearance...the last mini?)? Absolutely nothing.


When I think about it, it is no wonder that AF doesn't have a series right now. Seriously, without a complete reboot, a la New 52 by DC, how could anybody write these characters and expect anybody but a diehard fan to follow them! Too much confusion. Such a shame.

If convoluted histories were a major factor in the sales of comic books, the X-Men franchise would not have been popular since about 1986 (when it was revealed that the Jean Grey that died on the moon wasn't really Jean Grey, but a cosmic energy being that copied her form and--ANEURYSM!).

Again, I don't think the Alphans are that confusing. Try explaining Cable to someone. There is so much convolution in his basic backstory that it would probably take charts and timelines to be able to explain it. But explaining Snowbird? "She's the daughter of the Northern Goddess Nelvanna and a human tasked with protecting the Earth from the Great Beasts, her mother's family's ancient enemies. She can change her form to any animal native to Canada." Really...what more do you need to know?

I think Pak and Van Lente did a spectacular job of essentially "jettisoning" all but the basic concepts of these characters with the last mini (with some exceptions, like Puck being in Hell or that the Hudson's had a child).

And I don't believe any character, no matter how contradictory or convoluted, can't be at least seamed together into a cohesive whole by a writer willing to do so (and who has the talent). Geoff Johns did this with Hawkman wonderfully (in my opinion).

[Phil]

if you hadn't read a story about Snowbird since, say, the Byrne run, what would you need to be explained to be able to understand her status as of today (or of her last appearance...the last mini?)? Absolutely nothing.
She can now leave Canada.

Other than that I completely agree with all your other points.

[Le Messor]

rather than being forced to do the soul in Smart Alec, to Box, to Snowbird's body, as woman, then back to a man....

Technically, nobody was forced to do that; there were many other options. Including leaving Sasquatch dead.

Of course, part of the problem I've had with non-Byrne Alpha is that most of the artists draw him in particular as if they'd never even looked at Byrne's design; and I really like Byrne's design. It's so unique and well-defined.


how could anybody write these characters and expect anybody but a diehard fan to follow them!

But there are plenty of Die Hard fans in the world! Why do else you think they made so many of the movies?


if you hadn't read a story about Snowbird since, say, the Byrne run, what would you need to be explained to be able to understand her status as of today (or of her last appearance...the last mini?)? Absolutely nothing.

I'll second Phil on all this but:


I think Pak and Van Lente did a spectacular job of essentially "jettisoning" all but the basic concepts of these characters with the last mini (with some exceptions, like Puck being in Hell or that the Hudson's had a child).

And a major one - whatever the crap they did to Marrina. She was a polar opposite of her original character.

~ Le Messor
"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."

[Flightpath07]

How is Sasquatch's backstory unrecognizable.

I said back story, not origin. Jason, all your points are valid, except i was talking about the story of the characters as a whole, not just the origin of their powers. Back story, to me, means what has come before the current time.


But there are plenty of Die Hard fans in the world! Why do else you think they made so many of the movies?

For a moment there, Michael, I was in total agreement with you. Then i realized you were talking about the movies, and not the Youngblood character.

[Le Messor]

For a moment there, Michael, I was in total agreement with you. Then i realized you were talking about the movies, and not the Youngblood character.

The one doesn't negate the other.

~ Le Messor
"By Diehard's Crotch!"
~ Linkara (talking about the character, not the movies.)

[EccentricSage]

btw, I always figured that was an automatic program that did that, not something anybody at the site did on purpose.
And I've been telling that story irl ever since, as an example of some of the stupid things that happen ever since. 8-[

MODERATOR: The censoring is automated.

It was my fault, I'm pretty sure. I kept getting messages about my choice of language, so I requested the filter because altering my speech-to-writing pattern was cramping my style. Soooooryyyyyy... :3


Le Messor

And a major one - whatever the crap they did to Marrina. She was a polar opposite of her original character.

YES. No kidding. I never cared that much about her, but this sort of unrecognizable personality change for convenience sake is a pet peeve of mine, and I found her antics pedantic and '2 edgy 4 u'. Not to mention they made her too pretty. Byrne's Marina was uncanny valley creepy looking but with those cute mannerisms and sweet personality... That juxtaposition was the most interesting thing about her IMO.

What I could not forgive was how they messed up Heather so horribly just to give Mac a boost. It's like 'oh hay, your dead husband is back on the page, we don't need you to be a good leader anymore LOL, bye.' I could have forgiven that if the end of the story had made the story worthwhile and if the loose ends with her were tied up, but no... The writer liked Mac and didn't give a crap about fixing what he did to Heather. All for the big 'Alpha Flight are miserable failures' ending where Heather snaps out of it and stops the Master purely by chance.I had such high hopes, you know? There were some good points, but they left Alpha worse off for the run, IMO.

Wish I could comment more on the original topic of the thread but I'm not as well read as you guys. I can say I liked that he made Heather into Vindicator, and I liked that Madison Jeffries had tried to step into Mac's shoes in a way... I think that makes sense since Jeffries had been so invested in avenging Mac, and joining Alpha that he kind of threw his friends from Gamma under the bus. In a way, it's almost unsettling how he steps into the role he takes under Mantlo. He wants to do good but there's something about it that feels so wrong. Sometimes I see such potential in the subtle psychological possibilities of the characters, but the writers never seem to see it that way. *sigh* I think Wanda was actually a really neat idea. Gender essentialism vs gender conditioning could be explored quite a bit through that device. I'm missing the issue involving Smart Alec's body... What happened with that? I had assumed the writers had forgotten that Smart Alec was in Shaman's pouch. So... is he dead for real, or did he get put back in limbo after this whole musical chairs body swapping thing occurred?

Of course I hate what happened to Bochs. That was a travesty. And seriously, did Madison Jeffries kill both his own brother and his best friend but not develop any emotional breakdown from it? I have the issue where the **** hits the fan with Bochs, but not the ones after it. What if Madison is really borderline sociopath? Watching Dexter really got me thinking about how Madison is kind of cold and easy to manipulate into doing whatever gets him on a team, but then he's just this normal unassuming guy. At least, I think it works for explaining stuff like Weapon X and such. It syncs up well with him turning his back on Gamma Flight without looking back, and then just acting like everything is normal down the line when they resurface... no guilt. At least not in issues I have anyhow. Any one with a better collection have any thoughts on this?

[Jason Eberly]

I said back story, not origin. Jason, all your points are valid, except i was talking about the story of the characters as a whole, not just the origin of their powers. Back story, to me, means what has come before the current time.

Ah, I guess I'm just confused by what you mean by unrecognizable, then.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Page 157 in Sean Howe's book MARVEL COMICS, THE UNTOLD STORY sheds more light on the disparity that happens when new creators/creative teams take over than anything else I've seen: "* 'Whatever anybody else did was meaningless', Mantlo told Comics Feature. 'Your job was to come on to a book, and create it out of whole cloth. Marvel history meant nothing, but not because of Marvel history --- just that you were so intent on being better than the past writer, or showing how stupid the past writer was, that you went to great lengths to negate everything he said...Whoever took over was starting all over.' "

The Crossover is full of possibilities, and I think that both Byrne and Mantlo knew it. For whatever reason, though, it didn't work out the way it was planned [from the interviews in Amazing Heroes# 76 and Comics Feature # 42]. Alpha Flight didn't become super-popular on the newstand, and Byrne left the Hulk after his brief stint.

There are some good things that came out of the Crossover: (1) The original Smart Alec was also in the void, which was utilized during the Mantlo era; (2) Snowbird gave the speech that galvanized the team in # 29, and; (3) Incredible Hulk # 313 states the likelihood (I would say the inevitability, but that's up to MARVEL) that people who enter into the nexus are bound to be drawn back to it.

[Le Messor]

btw, I always figured that was an automatic program that did that...
MODERATOR: The censoring is automated.

Thanks, moderator, for the confirmation. (Which I've only just seen - I don't often read my own posts.)


YES. No kidding. I never cared that much about her, but this sort of unrecognizable personality change for convenience sake is a pet peeve of mine, and I found her antics pedantic and '2 edgy 4 u'.

Exactly.
(But is 'pedantic' the right word? It means, kinda, forcing literal-mindedness on people; eg: I'm being pedantic right now. Were you going for petty, perhaps?)

I think I read somewhere that the writer's reason for it was simply that he didn't like her original character-type. Which smacks to me of laziness and a poor craftsman blaming his tools.


What I could not forgive was how they messed up Heather so horribly just to give Mac a boost. It's like 'oh hay, your dead husband is back on the page, we don't need you to be a good leader anymore LOL, bye.'

Yeah, this, too. 'specially the lolcat speak. :)


I liked that he (Mantlo) made Heather into Vindicator

As did I!
Just as a note to the original topic of the thread: I don't like his run, but I've never said everything he did was wrong.


Of course I hate what happened to Bochs. That was a travesty. And seriously, did Madison Jeffries kill both his own brother and his best friend but not develop any emotional breakdown from it? I have the issue where the **** hits the fan with Bochs, but not the ones after it. What if Madison is really borderline sociopath?

Interesting theory.
In Byrne's run, he does leave Omega to the authorities because of what they did to Mac, a man 'I admired and respected'. Does that fit with sociopathy? (Possibly, from my limited knowledge.)


"* 'Whatever anybody else did was meaningless', Mantlo told Comics Feature. 'Your job was to come on to a book, and create it out of whole cloth. Marvel history meant nothing, but not because of Marvel history --- just that you were so intent on being better than the past writer, or showing how stupid the past writer was, that you went to great lengths to negate everything he said...Whoever took over was starting all over.' "

That attitude explains a lot. It's a going theory that third sequels in Hollywood are always botched because the suits who've taken over the studios don't want their predecessors to look good - so a series they started has to tank.
This is somebody pretty much stating that theory out loud. He was trying to make John Byrne at the height of his popularity (and, arguably, talent) look bad? Ooh, ooh, rookie mistake!

I think all creators should be trying their best to make their work look good, not themselves.
I see a lot of the excesses of modern storytelling excuse by statements like 'it's artistic', 'it's realistic', or (for movies) 'it feels like a documentary'; my counter is always 'it makes me enjoy the work less'. Y'know?
Have you ever heard anybody walk out of a theatre saying 'Wow, I'm really glad they added that shaky-cam, it enhanced my experience and made it a much better movie'?

~ Le Messor
"I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize."

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I have to admit that I'm not a fan of Alpha Flight#s 29 through 66, although there are bits and pieces that did have promise: Talisman causing the creation of PESTILENCE (no more than that; The Great Beasts had been around a lot longer than Crozier and would not have succumbed to his enthrallment easily, if at all); bringing back Walter in Smart Alec's body (although it is implied that Smart Alec got squashed during the fight soon after), and giving them a headquarters (which got blowed up).

The first year of the Mantlo era provided opportunities to weave Alpha Flight into the Marvel Universe that were...incredible: The Hulk (#29); The X-men, Wolverine and the origin of Lady Deathstrike (#s 33 & 34); the spirit-form of Dr. Strange (# 36); The Avengers (#39), plus The Sub-Mariner! If ever a title had the potential to do great things, Alpha Flight had it. The attitude in the quote from Sean Howe's book probably wouldn't have found expression in the form of a comic book story(line) if it hadn't been approved for publication.

The Mantlo era had the good fortune to have characters who were very popular at the time, but (original) Alpha Flight's treatment was so shabby that whoever had been planned to take their place got compromised in the process.

[Chris]

Is Comics Feature 42 the magazine that introduces and showcases Dave Ross's pencils (before Gerry Talaoc inked them) for Alpha Flight 35? If so, I've been looking to rebuy that magazine for years. BTW, I always preferred Whilce Portacio inking Dave Ross's work. Much cleaner style.

For me, Mantlo's Alpha Flight 29 - 40 felt like the Canadian Avengers. Seemed like the team had great potential again by the end of 40. When Mantlo started introducing young mutants like Purple Girl and Manikin and Goblyn, I felt like Mantlo was trying to write a Canadian X-Men/New Mutants book instead. It's like he couldn't decide what the team was about.

[rplass]

Yes, Comics Feature #42 is the one you're thinking of.

[Flightpath07]

When Mantlo started introducing young mutants like Purple Girl and Manikin and Goblyn, I felt like Mantlo was trying to write a Canadian X-Men/New Mutants book instead. It's like he couldn't decide what the team was about.

Awesome point, Chris. Never heard it expressed like that, but as i think about it, I would have to agree with you.

[Phil]

It's always a tricky one for a writer coming to a pre-existing book, especially a team one; you don't want to ape the previous writer(s) stories, yet you don't want yours to be uncharacteristic. You want to put your stamp on the book, yet you don't want it to be unrecognizable.
A lot of the time bringing new characters in solves that.

[Le Messor]

As a writer, an attitude I keep having to remind myself of - and I don't always do it well - is 'Is what I'm doing to make me look smart, or is it what's best for the story?' If the former, and it hurts the story, I get rid of it. If the latter, I keep it.
Of course, I've never taken over anyone else's work before.

Bringing in new characters is more often than not the former, and it often does hurt the book; if you replace all the existing characters, you end up with something unrecognisable to the fans. Often, that's not what they read the book for.
I've seen this many times on a comic - this isn't just a slight against Mantlo for Alpha Flight. It's a slight against all the other volumes except v4, as three examples among many.

That in itself doesn't make it bad, either - see under Giant-Sized Uncanny X-Men #1; but you need to be careful. Coming in with an attitude of 'I have to make the previous writer look stupid' is not being careful.

Then again, replacing all the characters isn't my primary gripe with Mantlo. He didn't suddenly do it all at once, but slowly, organically, over time. And, frankly, I like his new characters - Kara, Laura and Goblyn, and DreamQueen (though mostly under Hudnall)...

~ Le Messor
"If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?"

[DIGGER]

[QUOTE=Phil;93557]She can now leave Canada.

Her passport finally came though?!

[Le Messor]

Mine did... actually, it's been through for a while. But you just reminded me...

[Tawmis]

Is Comics Feature 42 the magazine that introduces and showcases Dave Ross's pencils (before Gerry Talaoc inked them) for Alpha Flight 35? If so, I've been looking to rebuy that magazine for years. BTW, I always preferred Whilce Portacio inking Dave Ross's work. Much cleaner style.
For me, Mantlo's Alpha Flight 29 - 40 felt like the Canadian Avengers. Seemed like the team had great potential again by the end of 40. When Mantlo started introducing young mutants like Purple Girl and Manikin and Goblyn, I felt like Mantlo was trying to write a Canadian X-Men/New Mutants book instead. It's like he couldn't decide what the team was about.

I can see why he would aim for something like THE NEW MUTANTS, because it was (also) off and on successful. But I was simply not a fan of Manikin. I didn't mine Goblyn - but the origin was pretty weird, how it tied to - pardon me for possibly getting the name wrong - Laura. With the twin thing. (Come to think of it - it's just dawned on me - that Goblyn/Laura have a VERY similar origin to two popular mutants that came out MANY years later - Penance/M. In both cases, you have one that's normal (Laura/M), and the other that is more primal and not even really able to speak (Goblyn/Penance). Ironic, that originally, I loved Penance and M - but when it was later revealed, their origin - the whole Penance thing went down hill for me. I remained a fan of M, later, because Peter David did a great job writing her in X-FACTOR.

[Le Messor]

Peter David usually does a great job of writing anybody.

(I'm re-reading Young Justice, and loving it again.)

[Garry/Al-Fan]

...

Then again, replacing all the characters isn't my primary gripe with Mantlo. He didn't suddenly do it all at once, but slowly, organically, over time. And, frankly, I like his new characters - Kara, Laura and Goblyn, and DreamQueen (though mostly under Hudnall)...

~ Le Messor
"If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?"

"Organically"? This cuts to the heart of the problem with Alpha Flight#s 29 through 66: very little happened organically. Very little happened plausibly. Very little happened logically.

I like Pestilence and DreamQueen; they are interesting, worthy adversaries. However, I think it would have been better if the post-Byrne creative team(s) had started out very soon after taking over (3 to 6 months) with its own characters.

(1) Several things happened to Jeanne-Marie between the time that Walter experimented on her (vol. 1# 17) and when she couldn't touch her brother without negating their powers (# 29): psychic death by Somon (#24); receiving part of Walter's essence (also # 24); having her ribs broken/(bruised?) by Dark Guardian (# 26), and being traumatized in the void (# 27). Picking and choosing (or worse neglecting and ignoring) previous events was probably the key reason the Mantlo era doesn't have internal consistencies.

(2) In AF# 31, "Nemesis" said she killed Deadly Ernest, but it was actually Judd who sliced him up; gray-haired "Nemesis" dissolves into dust having fulfilled her mission, something she didn't do when she "killed" Deadly Ernest the first time (vol. 1 # eight).

(3) Scramble...Madison is going to nominate Lionel for Alpha Flight [a] after Lionel had turned just about everybody in a hospital into monsters, when Madison himself wasn't even an Alphan yet, and [c] when no one except Madison saw Lionel "cure himself" [B]by touching his helmet (in # 30)! It's dubious how much Madison actually "saw", as disfigured as he was at the time.

[Le Messor]

Then again, replacing all the characters isn't my primary gripe with Mantlo.

(1) Several things happened to Jeanne-Marie...
(2) In AF# 31, "Nemesis" said she killed Deadly Ernest...
(3) Scramble...Madison is going to nominate Lionel for Alpha Flight

See, that IS my primary gripe with Mantlo - what he did to the existing characters.

~ Le Messor
"May you live in uninteresting times."

[Garry/Al-Fan]

See, that IS my primary gripe with Mantlo - what he did to the existing characters.

~ Le Messor
"May you live in uninteresting times."

Mine, too.

What if Lara "Purple Girl" Killgrave, Whitman Knapp, and the Derangers had been introduced at the beginning of the Mantlo era (within 3 to 6 months). Original Alpha Flight was ready for a hiatus/vacation/sabbatical at the time of the Crossover, anyway. Not saying the new characters would have had to "rescue" the old team [like Giant-Sized X-Men or Alpha Flight volume 3], but just have the characters take the stage without damaging the established characters...I think that would have worked out better.

Instead, what # 29 through # 50 did was milk the original characters in an excruciating (and contrived) way, raking everybody over the coals in the process.

I was done caring with # 55.

[Tawmis]

You know, I think that's part of the problem. There really wasn't much of Alpha Flight fighting ... The Masters of Evil, Omega Flight, whomever - it was a lot of stories that focused on the specific characters. But not in a good way. Not in a way that advanced the characters. It was more of a, "How badly can I torture and destroy this character and their life?" Essentially making it more difficult for the next writer, or even the next story, to progress, because these characters were so freaking tortured and ruined, that you couldn't even CARE what was happening anymore.