Crackity Jones' Discovery Of Alpha Flight

[Crackity Jones]

Hello!

I hope there isn't a general intoduction thread, and I just overlooked it somehow. I did a search for one, and came up with nothing, so I am starting this thread. If there is an existing one, I apologize. :mrgreen:

I found the wonderful world of Alpha Flight about...maybe 2 months ago while at a shop digging through the 25 cent boxes. The title caught my eye, and then I vaguely recalled them from UXM. The first issue I saw and picked up was #19. Regretfully, I didn't pick up every issue because I didn't know what it was or if I'd like it.
I ended up ordering 1-8 in singles a few days later, and then ordered volume 2 and 3 of the rest of Byrne's run in TPB.

Within the middle of the first issue, I was hooked. And I have never been so obsessed with a comic series in my life. I've only read up to issue #28, but I have #29-#46 ordered in singles, and they're on their way to me. And I'm itching to read the rest.

There, I think that's about it. I'm not great with introductions.

[Flightpath07]

Not great with introductions? Don't be so hard on yourself, you did great!

Welcome to alphaflight.net, Crackity Jones (btw, that's a GREAT handle!), and to the massively addictive world of Alpha Flight in general. Glad to have you here, and even gladder (is that even a word? "more glad?" "full of gladniciousness?") to have another recruit to Alpha fandom.

What has it been now, 30 years since Claremont and Byrne introduced the world to Alpha Flight, and still we are gaining fans?!! Can't hold us back or keep us down! Hail Alpha! Until Alpha Flight meets Alpaca Flight, make mine Alpha!

[Crackity Jones]

Not great with introductions? Don't be so hard on yourself, you did great!

Welcome to alphaflight.net, Crackity Jones (btw, that's a GREAT handle!), and to the massively addictive world of Alpha Flight in general. Glad to have you here, and even gladder (is that even a word? "more glad?" "full of gladniciousness?") to have another recruit to Alpha fandom.

What has it been now, 30 years since Claremont and Byrne introduced the world to Alpha Flight, and still we are gaining fans?!! Can't hold us back or keep us down! Hail Alpha! Until Alpha Flight meets Alpaca Flight, make mine Alpha!

Thank you for the awesome welcome, Flightpath07!
If you want "gladder" to be a word, so be it. :D
And, yes, I'll be an Alpha Flight fan for life now because Byrne's run has me addicted.
I've heard varying opinions on what to expect from the end of his run and on, but I'm going to read it and be the judge of if I like it or not.

I swear I say this 50 times a day, but from where I am right now in the books, "I WANT MAC BACK.".
I don't want anymore Not-Macs. I want Mac back. :(

[Sypes]

OMG... I totally get what you are saying Crackity Jones! I was in your shoes a few years back when I got hooked on Alpha Flight. I just cannot get enough of them! The first site I visit every day when I log onto my work computer is this site, just to see if Alpha Flight made any recent news! I'm happy to have Northstar in X-men, but would love to see other members in other teams (Sasquatch in Avengers, anyone?) but would def love the team to be whole again!

Anyway, welcome to the site. Make yourself at home ;)

ps... new words are so much "funner" than old ones!

[Tawmis]

Hello!


Hello!



I hope there isn't a general intoduction thread, and I just overlooked it somehow. I did a search for one, and came up with nothing, so I am starting this thread. If there is an existing one, I apologize. :mrgreen:


One as awesome as you deserves your own thread!



I found the wonderful world of Alpha Flight about...maybe 2 months ago while at a shop digging through the 25 cent boxes. The title caught my eye, and then I vaguely recalled them from UXM. The first issue I saw and picked up was #19. Regretfully, I didn't pick up every issue because I didn't know what it was or if I'd like it.
I ended up ordering 1-8 in singles a few days later, and then ordered volume 2 and 3 of the rest of Byrne's run in TPB.


I can vouch that she's definitely a newly acquired Alpha Flight fan!



Within the middle of the first issue, I was hooked. And I have never been so obsessed with a comic series in my life. I've only read up to issue #28, but I have #29-#46 ordered in singles, and they're on their way to me. And I'm itching to read the rest.

There, I think that's about it. I'm not great with introductions.

And awaiting, as I said on the other forum, for your views post Byrne. Will be cool getting those real time.

Oh and welcome to AlphaFlight.net - Hope you survive the experience!

[Crackity Jones]

OMG... I totally get what you are saying Crackity Jones! I was in your shoes a few years back when I got hooked on Alpha Flight. I just cannot get enough of them! The first site I visit every day when I log onto my work computer is this site, just to see if Alpha Flight made any recent news! I'm happy to have Northstar in X-men, but would love to see other members in other teams (Sasquatch in Avengers, anyone?) but would def love the team to be whole again!

Anyway, welcome to the site. Make yourself at home ;)

ps... new words are so much "funner" than old ones!

YAY!
More Alpha Addicts! I am not alone!
I cannot wait to see what Amazing X-Men #8 has in store as far as an appearance of Alpha Flight.
I'm super stoked about it.

I have the giant-sized Alpha annuals #1 and #2. I'm not sure WHEN I should read those, though? I also have the two issue mini thing of X-Men and Alpha Flight.
My Alpha TPBs are never far from reach (as in on my next desk to me at all times, or on my nightstand if I'm reading them).
I've ordered a t-shirt. I've made my dog an Alpha Flight collar AND ordered her an Alpha Flight-inspired tag.
I need the action figures and the mini mates things.
I am Alpha crazy. It's bad.

[Crackity Jones]

Hello!
<3


One as awesome as you deserves your own thread!
You're the best, Tawmis. Really, you are.



I can vouch that she's definitely a newly acquired Alpha Flight fan!
I'm still waiting for you to tell me to shut up about them one of these days. ha.


And awaiting, as I said on the other forum, for your views post Byrne. Will be cool getting those real time.

Oh and welcome to AlphaFlight.net - Hope you survive the experience!

You KNOW I am going to be posting about everything I read. I just read the Hulk issue in volume 3 TPB, and am getting ready to start #29 (which I didn't realize was in the TPB, so I ordered the single). I'm hesitant to start it, though, as it'll be my last in order Alpha Flight until the rest of my books arrive. :(

[rplass]

We actually do have an intro thread but I like this one better. Hi CJ and welcome to alphaflight.net!

Love,
rplass

[Chris]

I have the giant-sized Alpha annuals #1 and #2. I'm not sure WHEN I should read those, though? I also have the two issue mini thing of X-Men and Alpha Flight.

Welcome aboard Crackity Jones. AF Annual 1 takes place somewhere in between AF 38 & 39. AF Annual 2 takes place in between AF 51 and AF 52.

Which two issue mini thing of X-Men and Alpha Flight? The first volume by Chris Claremont and Paul Smith? Or the second volume by Ben Raab and John Cassaday?

[Crackity Jones]

We actually do have an intro thread but I like this one better. Hi CJ and welcome to alphaflight.net!

Love,
rplass

Hi, rplass!
I am sorry I missed the intro thread! Where is it at (probably right in front of my face, yes?)?


Welcome aboard Crackity Jones. AF Annual 1 takes place somewhere in between AF 38 & 39. AF Annual 2 takes place in between AF 51 and AF 52.

Hello, Chris-
I will hold off on reading them, thank you for that info!

The two issue mini thing is from, I think, Asgardian Wars. They're these:

3681

3682

Thanks everyone for the welcomes!!!
I cannot believe I found somewhere where I can obsess about Alpha Flight all day if I wanted to.

[Chris]

That X-Men and Alpha Flight "The Gift" story from the Asgardian Wars takes place between AF 22 and 23. Seeing those two covers again makes me wish Paul Smith would have taken over pencilling AF after Byrne left.

[Crackity Jones]

That X-Men and Alpha Flight "The Gift" story from the Asgardian Wars takes place between AF 22 and 23. Seeing those two covers again makes me wish Paul Smith would have taken over pencilling AF after Byrne left.

I haven't even looked inside of those books yet. When someone mentioned that they were in the Asgardian Wars TPB, I thought about waiting for the new release of that this coming September, and then just gifting these to a friend I'd love to get into Alpha Flight. But I'll just get her her own copies and read these because I don't think I can hold out until September.

The covers are nice.

[rplass]

I am sorry I missed the intro thread! Where is it at (probably right in front of my face, yes?)?

Yes, in the Alpha Talk Forum, there's a sticky called "Alpha Flight Questionnaire (http://alphaflight.net/showthread.php?2576-Alpha-Flight-Questionnaire)."

And yes please feel free to obsess. To any height!

[Crackity Jones]

Yes, in the Alpha Talk Forum, there's a sticky called "Alpha Flight Questionnaire (http://alphaflight.net/showthread.php?2576-Alpha-Flight-Questionnaire)."

And yes please feel free to obsess. To any height!

Yyyeeeahhh. As of right now, I couldn't answer half those questions. As it is, my favorite character and story change everytime I read a new (to me) story.
And when I have time, I'll be obsessing all over this place.
And you all will get to witness all my Alpha firsts, and hopefully that'll be fun for some of you. :D

[Phil]

Hey Crackity (should we call you that?),

A very warm welcome to the site and thank you for joining!

It's always refreshing to hear of new 'Flight fans.

There's also an Introduction Thread (http://alphaflight.net/showthread.php?2563-Introduce-Yourself) but it's pretty stale by now, so this thread is a great idea :D

[Crackity Jones]

Hey Crackity (should we call you that?),

A very warm welcome to the site and thank you for joining!

It's always refreshing to hear of new 'Flight fans.

There's also an Introduction Thread (http://alphaflight.net/showthread.php?2563-Introduce-Yourself) but it's pretty stale by now, so this thread is a great idea :D

Hi, Phil!

Thanks for welcoming me. :D

I'm thinking I should have titled this thread "Crackity Jones' discovery of Alpha Flight", and just turned it into my kind of "log" of each Alpha Flight issue I read. And you all could join me on my journey to discovering the awesome that is Alpha Flight.
You could feel happy for me when I reach the highs of certain stories, and bad for me when I reach the low points.

Right now, I'm entering Mantlo's AF run. And from what other fans have told me, it's going to suck.
But, I'm trying to go into it with no preconceived notions and a clear mind so I can judge for myself.
But I'm a little nervous. Just coming off the high (well it was awesome to me, anyway) of Byrne's run, I don't really want my Alpha Flight ruined.

I was on issue...I think it was #24 or #25, and I went on Amazon.com to order the 4th TPB...only to realize I couldn't find it.
Because it doesn't exist.
Then I looked up Byrne's Alpha Flight only to find out that he stopped writing and arting it at #28.

Why must all the nice things eventually be taken from us? :(

[Phil]

I'm thinking I should have titled this thread "Crackity Jones' discovery of Alpha Flight", and just turned it into my kind of "log" of each Alpha Flight issue I read. And you all could join me on my journey to discovering the awesome that is Alpha Flight.
You could feel happy for me when I reach the highs of certain stories, and bad for me when I reach the low points.
As if by magic...


Right now, I'm entering Mantlo's AF run. And from what other fans have told me, it's going to suck.
But, I'm trying to go into it with no preconceived notions and a clear mind so I can judge for myself.
But I'm a little nervous. Just coming off the high (well it was awesome to me, anyway) of Byrne's run, I don't really want my Alpha Flight ruined.
I still stick by Mantlo's run.
I don't think it sucks, it's just... very... different to Byrne's run.
There are definite things I disagree with but I still enjoy it as it's own thing.


I was on issue...I think it was #24 or #25, and I went on Amazon.com to order the 4th TPB...only to realize I couldn't find it.
Because it doesn't exist.
Yeah, there's only ever really been demand for the Byrne material and even that's minimal in the grand scheme of fandom.
Maybe with Mignola and later Lee's artwork the run might continue to be collected but it's a slim chance at the moment...

[Tawmis]

<3
You're the best, Tawmis. Really, you are.


I bet you say that to all the Tawmis' and Adam-X's you know...
Which, come to think of it, is probably just me! :D



I'm still waiting for you to tell me to shut up about them one of these days. ha.


That is not going to happen!



You KNOW I am going to be posting about everything I read. I just read the Hulk issue in volume 3 TPB, and am getting ready to start #29 (which I didn't realize was in the TPB, so I ordered the single). I'm hesitant to start it, though, as it'll be my last in order Alpha Flight until the rest of my books arrive. :(

Heh. Looking forward to your thoughts!


That X-Men and Alpha Flight "The Gift" story from the Asgardian Wars takes place between AF 22 and 23. Seeing those two covers again makes me wish Paul Smith would have taken over pencilling AF after Byrne left.

Agreed. Wasn't he off doing X-Men at the time?


Hey Crackity (should we call you that?),
A very warm welcome to the site and thank you for joining!
It's always refreshing to hear of new 'Flight fans.
There's also an Introduction Thread (http://alphaflight.net/showthread.php?2563-Introduce-Yourself) but it's pretty stale by now, so this thread is a great idea :grin:

She was worried (because she claims to be shy!) that folks might tear her apart here.

I told her that we're all a friendly bunch here.



Right now, I'm entering Mantlo's AF run. And from what other fans have told me, it's going to suck.
But, I'm trying to go into it with no preconceived notions and a clear mind so I can judge for myself.
But I'm a little nervous. Just coming off the high (well it was awesome to me, anyway) of Byrne's run, I don't really want my Alpha Flight ruined.


Well, it's not that it sucks. It's just - clearly - a very different direction for Alpha Flight. I enjoy when (writers/artists) switch - and it's a smooth transition. This, however, felt like whiplash. It immediately feels like he hits the ground running - in a very different direction that what we saw previously with Byrne. Kind of like a rollercoaster - it's up and down up and down - and then - BLAM - a hard right that jerks you to the side. You can still enjoy the ride, but it's quite different.

[Crackity Jones]

I'm going to reply to this later, but I was wondering, where/how do I switch it so that my posts read from oldest up top, to newest at the bottom?
Or is this the way it is and it's not changeable.

Phil, you are awesome for changing the thread title-THANK YOU! <3

[rplass]

http://alphaflight.net/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_usage#faq_vb3_thread_display

[Crackity Jones]

http://alphaflight.net/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_usage#faq_vb3_thread_display

AH HA! I found it in my general settings. You are most helpful, rplass, thank you!

[Flightpath07]

AH HA! I found it in my general settings. You are most helpful, rplass, thank you!

Yes, Rob is pretty helpful around here. As are Phil and Legerd and many, many others. We're more than community, we are family - think "Dead Poet's Society", only without Robin Williams (actually, any one of us here COULD be Robin Williams...).

You're gonna enjoy it here, Crackity. I stopped by in 2007, and now I am (stuck?) here every day!

[Crackity Jones]

I bet you say that to all the Tawmis' and Adam-X's you know...
Which, come to think of it, is probably just me! :D

As a matter of fact, I do! And as a matter of fact, you ARE.




That is not going to happen!

Because you're the best.


Heh. Looking forward to your thoughts!
I actually LIKED #29. I didn't think it was bad at all, really. Different, but not bad.
It was Mantlo's first AF issue, yes? If so, I could tell it was a "take over" issue, and that he was going somewhere...else with it. But, it's only his first issue that I've read, but it was not bad, imo.


She was worried (because she claims to be shy!) that folks might tear her apart here.

I told her that we're all a friendly bunch here.

I typically *AM* shy! Because when I try NOT to be I do things like, oh, I don't know, forget to read rules and ask two questions that could have been answered if I had read things properly.:oops:
Yes, everyone has been super friendly so far. :D



Well, it's not that it sucks. It's just - clearly - a very different direction for Alpha Flight. I enjoy when (writers/artists) switch - and it's a smooth transition. This, however, felt like whiplash. It immediately feels like he hits the ground running - in a very different direction that what we saw previously with Byrne. Kind of like a rollercoaster - it's up and down up and down - and then - BLAM - a hard right that jerks you to the side. You can still enjoy the ride, but it's quite different.

I will be the judge of these things, Tawmis! :P
I just need my characters. Because that's all I care about. Right now.

[Crackity Jones]

Yes, Rob is pretty helpful around here. As are Phil and Legerd and many, many others. We're more than community, we are family - think "Dead Poet's Society", only without Robin Williams (actually, any one of us here COULD be Robin Williams...).

You're gonna enjoy it here, Crackity. I stopped by in 2007, and now I am (stuck?) here every day!

Seven years ago? Wow.
I cannot believe 2007 was SEVEN YEARS AGO.
The older I get, the more time means something, but the faster it goes. :(

And YAY! FAMILY! <3

[-K-M-]

Welcome to the board

[Mokole]

Welcome, and of course we'll be glad to hear your thoughts, commentary, and ideas. Me, I'm a Box, Nemesis, Feedback and Puck fan mostly.:cool:

[Crackity Jones]

Welcome to the board

Thank you, -K-M-!


Welcome, and of course we'll be glad to hear your thoughts, commentary, and ideas. Me, I'm a Box, Nemesis, Feedback and Puck fan mostly.:cool:

Thanks, Mokole. :D
I don't believe I have a solid favorite character right now. I love them all for various reasons, but if I was forced to pick a fave, I'd have to say Mac. I bawled like a little b!+ch when he died, and Heather's mourning ripped my heart out, I think, for a bit. And even if I didn't care for the series, I probably would have continued to read it just so I could eventually read Mac's comeback. Which still hasn't happened (where I am at). I was hugely let down when Not Mac showed up in the books.
When Heather was walking with Talisman/Elizabeth and thought she spotted Mac, I was SO EXCITED.
That whole thing makes me emotional. I even bothered to get scans of it.
I was fooled by Not Mac up until the moment I noticed that he was having each individual Omega Flight member beat the Alphans at the mall. But I was in denial until the face was tore off in front of Heather. *sigh*.

Anyway, I am starting the X-Men and Alpha Flight: The Gift story (the two part mini thing) today.
Because: X-Men, New Mutants, AND Alpha Flight? Yes, plz.

[Chris]

I was fooled by Not Mac up until the moment I noticed that he was having each individual Omega Flight member beat the Alphans at the mall. But I was in denial until the face was tore off in front of Heather. *sigh*.

Ah yes. AF 26. I was fooled also. What a cruel joke Byrne did. When I first saw the cover to AF 26 back in 1985, I was like, what the heck? Diamond Lil, Flashback, and Wild Child have defeated Alpha Flight?! But here comes Guardian and he's going to wipe those smirks off their faces and put the smack down on Omega Flight and rescue Alpha Flight. So I open the book and start reading the story and seeing that familiar white hand and electromagnetic energy at the defeat of each Alphan, and thought it can't be. Maybe Omega Flight has brainwashed Mac. And then the final reveal of Delphine Courtney at the end. What trickery.

[Crackity Jones]

Ah yes. AF 26. I was fooled also. What a cruel joke Byrne did. When I first saw the cover to AF 26 back in 1985, I was like, what the heck? Diamond Lil, Flashback, and Wild Child have defeated Alpha Flight?! But here comes Guardian and he's going to wipe those smirks off their faces and put the smack down on Omega Flight and rescue Alpha Flight. So I open the book and start reading the story and seeing that familiar white hand and electromagnetic energy at the defeat of each Alphan, and thought it can't be. Maybe Omega Flight has brainwashed Mac. And then the final reveal of Delphine Courtney at the end. What trickery.

It was beyond cruel, it was DEVASTATING. :(
When Mac came back with that freaking weird alien story, I thought it was really out there, but, you know, AF can be kind of out there. But then when he spoke to Heather the way he did, I thought something was a bit off (when he was like, "I thought you'd get it Heather, but apparently you DIDN'T!"), but I figured it was just overwhelming for him to tell this story and then deal with being alive and back on earth.
Guess I was just so happy that Mac was back.

When he kissed Heather, I thought, "Ahhh. There is balance again. Everything is right in the world."

But, NO. It was Not Mac. I was pissed.

Now when (if?) Mac truly comes back, I probably won't believe it. Now I'm all jaded.

Also, kind of unrelated: I love Heather, but uh, does anyone every talk about the kind of stalker-ish/creepy way her and Mac hooked up?
Even reading that, I thought it was sweet, but, you know, kind of creepy.
She runs into him as he loses his job, then she just shows up at his place with groceries and, like, the second sentence out of her mouth is a suggestion of marriage.

I'm glad they got married because they're, like, one of my favorite Marvel couples, but still. Most guys would have run for their lives if a lady acted like that.
Does that weird behavior ever come out in Heather again? That just seemed a little tweaky-in-the-head to me when I read it.

[Tawmis]

Does that weird behavior ever come out in Heather again? That just seemed a little tweaky-in-the-head to me when I read it.

HAHAHHAHAHAH... Read on, sistah, read on...

[Le Messor]

Welcome, Crackity.

Have people told her we're friendly?
Good. Good...

It'll be great to see your reactions through the Mantlo run.

When I first read #25, I'd already seen the cover to #26, so the Mac is Delphine twist never came as a huge surprise to me. :( Spoilers!

We have a chronology thread which may be of some use. I'm kind of in a bad place to look it up right now; specifically, Colorado, on a borrowed computer, and really tired, but it gives a good order for reading mixed issues (like annuals and guest appearances).
The Gift, I think, is (two) of the best non-Byrne issues out there. Alpha Flight and the New Mutants never interact in Asgardian Wars, though; it's collected from the Alpha Flight / X-Men mini and an X-Men and a New Mutants annual that had follow-up stories.

~ Le Messor (aka Mik)

[Tawmis]

Welcome, Crackity.
Have people told her we're friendly?
Good. Good...


It was the only way to lure - I mean, invite her - here.

[Crackity Jones]

You guys are something else. :D

Thanks, Le Messor. I am sure that I will find that thread (eventually). I haven't had much online time to really dig through the threads here.
I am still reading The Gift because of a million interruptions (happens here quite often unless I am home by myself which DOESN'T happen often enough). I'll try to put up scans of my favorite parts.

[Crackity Jones]

Okay, so when Claremont is good, he's freaking fantastic and the best EVER.
But when he's off, he is pretty damn off (um, I'm mainly thinking his Captain Britain).
Fortunately, he's very on for this two-shot/mini (what is this called?) ETA: Two-issue limited series, as it states, sorry. This is some really amazing stuff.

Anyone think that maaayyyybbbeeee we might get some of this with AF being in Amazing X-Men? Think Kyle and Yost could deliver something as great as this? Or no?

[Le Messor]

Whaddaya know? The chronology thread is first up in the Alpha Talk section:
http://alphaflight.net/showthread.php?5491-AF-Appearance-Chronology

Yes, this is Claremont at his best. For that reason alone, I don't expect anything else to reach those heights.
The Kyle / Yost version could still be great.

~ Le Messor

[Crackity Jones]

Thanks!

And, yeah, I figured it was probably Claremont at his most awesome.

Here's to hoping Kyle and Yost can deliver some good things!

[Crackity Jones]

I read #30 on Friday, and really, I think if Heather doesn't get Mac back soon, she's going to kill off the rest of her team (I know she doesn't, but still).
Crazy-endangering-her-team-lady-cause-of-her-lack-of-powers.

I feel so bad for her.

[Le Messor]

Only now, at the beginning, do you understand the full power of Mantlo's run!

~ Le Messor
Calvin: Moe, I was wondering something. Are your maladjusted antisocial tendencies the product of your berserk pituitary gland?
Moe: What?
Calvin: Isn't he great, folks? Let's give him a big hand!

[Crackity Jones]

Oh, no.
How bad are my feelings going to be hurt?

[Flightpath07]

Bad. Keep reading.

[Crackity Jones]

Bad. Keep reading.

I'M A TROOPER! I will not stop reading, I promise. No matter how much it breaks my heart.
And no matter how many Not Macs I get. I'll keep going. I won't give up.

I just may come here and cry, okay?

[Flightpath07]

I just may come here and cry, okay?

That is sort of what we do here; we are an online community of weepers. "Welcome to Alpha Flight Anonymous. My name is Flightpath07, and...oh, daggnabit...waaaaaaaaaaa!"

No, seriously. If we didn't cry and complain here, we'd combust.

[Le Messor]

That's what we're here for. :)

Look at it this way: Remember when Brian K. Vaughan left Runaways, and was replaced by Joss Whedon, and it was hardly his best work? And then he left and got replaced by somebody less good?

That's the musical comedy version of this.

(Of course, if I've been mistaking your avatar this whole time, that all may mean nothing to you.)

~ Le Messor
"Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7th of your life."

[Crackity Jones]

That's what we're here for. :)

Look at it this way: Remember when Brian K. Vaughan left Runaways, and was replaced by Joss Whedon, and it was hardly his best work? And then he left and got replaced by somebody less good?

That's the musical comedy version of this.

(Of course, if I've been mistaking your avatar this whole time, that all may mean nothing to you.)

~ Le Messor
"Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7th of your life."

hahaha. I get the gist, I think. But my avatar is Violet from Rat Queens.
If you're not reading Rat Queens, you REEEEAAAALLLLLLYYYYY should be. :D

[Crackity Jones]

That is sort of what we do here; we are an online community of weepers. "Welcome to Alpha Flight Anonymous. My name is Flightpath07, and...oh, daggnabit...waaaaaaaaaaa!"

No, seriously. If we didn't cry and complain here, we'd combust.

Just know, I may post a couple of "WTF" posts and just "Sobs" posts.
And know that it's because I don't really read any spoilers, I try not to pay attention to covers, and I am already emotionally attached to every single character.

[Le Messor]

Just know, I may post a couple of "WTF" posts and just "Sobs" posts.

I hope it doesn't come to that. :)

[Flightpath07]

hahaha. I get the gist, I think. But my avatar is Violet from Rat Queens.
If you're not reading Rat Queens, you REEEEAAAALLLLLLYYYYY should be. :D

Dang it! I KNEW i recognized that avatar!

YES! Rat Queens is THE comic right now! Purely awesome!

[Crackity Jones]

Dang it! I KNEW i recognized that avatar!

YES! Rat Queens is THE comic right now! Purely awesome!

Yes, yes it is. :D

I read the rest of "The Gift" last night.
*sniffle*
It was soooo good. SO GOOD.

Why can't comics be written like that anymore?
Where everyone is a working team, but each character gets a bit of focus?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I read #30 on Friday, and really, I think if Heather doesn't get Mac back soon, she's going to kill off the rest of her team (I know she doesn't, but still).
Crazy-endangering-her-team-lady-cause-of-her-lack-of-powers.

I feel so bad for her.

Your enthusiasm for Alpha Flight is awesome, CJ...as is your commitment to keep reading the Mantlo-era run. There are non-Byrne stories that are good (like The Gift), which confirms my belief that Alpha Flight can be handled well...if given the chance. Unfortunately, there aren't as many (good non-Byrne stories) as there could have been.

[Le Messor]

Nor as many as good Byrne stories. Which, given the small number of Byrne stories, says something.

[Flightpath07]

Nor as many as good Byrne stories. Which, given the small number of Byrne stories, says something.

Word.

[Crackity Jones]

Your enthusiasm for Alpha Flight is awesome, CJ...as is your commitment to keep reading the Mantlo-era run. There are non-Byrne stories that are good (like The Gift), which confirms my belief that Alpha Flight can be handled well...if given the chance. Unfortunately, there aren't as many (good non-Byrne stories) as there could have been.

Thank you, Garry/Al-Fan.
I've been slacking in my AF reading lately. Just been enjoying the nice weather outside, and I have been working a lot.
But I promise to get back into the swing of reading.

[Flightpath07]

We all slack off and slow down, post-Byrne.

Or, as Stephen King would put it, 'we all float down here'.

[Crackity Jones]

We all slack off and slow down, post-Byrne.

Or, as Stephen King would put it, 'we all float down here'.

So it's not just me, good. Because I read through Byrne's run so quickly. I couldn't stop reading it. I think I am still recovering from the sadness of the fact that Byrne didn't write the run I am currently reading. :(
It's the anticipation of knowing it's not going to be the same.
I wasn't ready for the change. :(

[Le Messor]

Just keep plugging away at it. There are still good moments to come.

~ Le Messor
"Money will not buy happiness, but it will let you be unhappy in nice places."

[Crackity Jones]

I read #31 tonight (FINALLY!).

And!
STFU, Heather. Someone give her some powers already.
http://s4.postimg.org/lsb9s7w59/3101.jpg

My fave parts were Northstar getting snarky with Heather.

How much longer is Heather going to irritate me? I used to like her. When Byrne wrote her. My sympathy for her has been stretched and used up already, and I'm only on the second Mantlo issue. :(

ETA: OH OH OH! And I loved Puck. LOVE HIM.

[Flightpath07]

I think I am still recovering from the sadness of the fact that Byrne didn't write the run I am currently reading.

You should read some of the disparaging things he has had to say about Alpha Flight, and the characters within, since he left the series. The beauty of his run was in the flaws, and the humanity. And the only way i can realistically keep on liking Mr. Byrne is to see him the same way; flawed, and human.

[Le Messor]

The whiny Heather is part of why we're so down on Mantlo's run...
but at least it leads to something.

~ Le Messor
"Montana - At least our cows are sane!"

[Flightpath07]

The whiny Heather is part of why we're so down on Mantlo's run...
but at least it leads to something.

Ooo! Ooo! *Raises hand and flaps it over head*

Is it a puppy in an Alpha flight collar?!

[Le Messor]

No, that was Byrne's run.

Now, a dog in a Wolverine costume...

[Crackity Jones]

Hey! My dog looks pretty awesome in her Alpha Flight collar. I thought it was kind of...you know, kind of neat how I did...the thing...with the title and put it on something. Why would you make fun of that?

I don't know specifics of what Byrne has said about Alpha Flight, all I know is that he didn't much care for it.

I started #32 last night, but I am not done with it yet. I know I am not supposed to like whiny Heather, but now that she has the suit, she is cocky, and I don't care for what she said about Mac. I'll post up a scan later.

[Le Messor]

Nobody's making fun. ?

I think it was Jason Eberly who posted a picture of a dog in a Wolverine costume; but whoever it was, that actually happened!

Heather in the costume is what I meant by her whininess leading to something, btw.

~ Le Messor
"Most of us, when all is said and done, like what we like and make up reasons for it afterwards."
~ Soren F. Peterson

[Phil]

Now, a dog in a Wolverine costume...

Hey! My dog looks pretty awesome in her Alpha Flight collar. I thought it was kind of...you know, kind of neat how I did...the thing...with the title and put it on something. Why would you make fun of that?

Nobody's making fun. ?

I think it was Jason Eberly who posted a picture of a dog in a Wolverine costume; but whoever it was, that actually happened!

http://alphaflight.net/showthread.php?3607-What-Alpha-Flight-goodies-do-you-have&p=92812&viewfull=1#post92812
'Twas KM:
3852

[Le Messor]

Sorry, KM, for misremembering.

[Flightpath07]

I agree. There was no making of the funny. Everyone knows, if there is one thing I am not, it's funny.

Well...some have said "funny-looking"...and there is that odd odor...

[Crackity Jones]

Just read all of #32.
Wtf did I just read?

Whhhyyyyyy. WWWWHHHHHYYYYYYY.
PUCK.
WWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.

So, seriously, Puck hasn't always been a dwarf?
This has me seriously WTFing.

[-K-M-]

I'm reposting this again....well....because I can

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/A_Flight10/wolverine_wolverweim_zps88d354dc.png

[Crackity Jones]

That is BRILLIANT.

[Phil]

Just read all of #32.
Wtf did I just read?

Whhhyyyyyy. WWWWHHHHHYYYYYYY.
PUCK.
WWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.

So, seriously, Puck hasn't always been a dwarf?
This has me seriously WTFing.

Yup.

[Crackity Jones]

Yup.

Am I the only one who has/had a difficult time digesting this bit of news?

[Le Messor]

Am I the only one who has/had a difficult time digesting this bit of news?

Not by a long shot.

I mean, remember how Byrne went to the trouble of researching the correct medical term?

[Flightpath07]

Am I the only one who has/had a difficult time digesting this bit of news?


Not by a long shot.

I mean, remember how Byrne went to the trouble of researching the correct medical term?

Yeah, CJ, um...this is just one of MANY Alpha Flight "inconsistencies" in the writing and characterization...honestly it was like, either some people never read Byrne's Alpha Flight before taking over it themselves, or they maybe just really hated him?

Actually, maybe your term was better; this is one of several "WTF's" that have sadly gone on over the years...

[Flightpath07]

I'm reposting this again....well....because I can

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/A_Flight10/wolverine_wolverweim_zps88d354dc.png

"Jean..." *sniffle sniffle snikt*

[Phil]

Yeah, CJ, um...this is just one of MANY Alpha Flight "inconsistencies" in the writing and characterization...honestly it was like, either some people never read Byrne's Alpha Flight before taking over it themselves, or they maybe just really hated him?

Actually, maybe your term was better; this is one of several "WTF's" that have sadly gone on over the years...

Yeah... The Heather stuff I could overlook, but the Puck stuff is where it starts to go downhill quickly... We still have Elf-gate to come...

[Crackity Jones]

Yeah... The Heather stuff I could overlook, but the Puck stuff is where it starts to go downhill quickly... We still have Elf-gate to come...

I'm having a hard time overlooking any of it.
Heather is a super disappointment to me because she was one of my faves in Byrne's run, and now she is either just whining, being *****y, or being demanding (TRAIN ME NOW).

And am I missing something? Because it keeps being mentioned how Heather went from Mac's secretary, to lover, to wife.
That is not how I recall it. There was no time for "lover" to be a separate mention.
She showed up at his house with groceries and one of the first sentences out of her mouth was the recommendation of marriage.
Didn't they get married, like, the next day?

I read #33, and while I liked it a little better towards the end, I feel like somebody stole my characters and replaced them with strangers. :(

[Le Messor]

And am I missing something? Because it keeps being mentioned how Heather went from Mac's secretary, to lover, to wife.
That is not how I recall it. There was no time for "lover" to be a separate mention.

No, you're not missing anything. You're not out of order. The Bill Mantlo's out of order! The whole frickin' system is out of order! Marvel is out of order! Justice is out of order! The vending machine next to the men's room, that sells candies and coke is out of order!


Didn't they get married, like, the next day?

It wasn't quite that quick.
Volume 2 even has a -1 issue that deals with their marriage, but...


I feel like somebody stole my characters and replaced them with strangers.

Welcome to my nightmare.
That's pretty much how I feel about not only Mantlo's run, but v2 as well. In fact, all the post-1 volumes (some of them just had more enjoyable strangers than others).

v1 does get better, though (imho). Just, not in a hurry. And it'll never be as good as it was under Byrne.

~ Le Messor
"Most of the evils of life arise from man's being unable to sit still in a room."
~ Blaise Pascal

[Crackity Jones]

No, you're not missing anything. You're not out of order. The Bill Mantlo's out of order! The whole frickin' system is out of order! Marvel is out of order! Justice is out of order! The vending machine next to the men's room, that sells candies and coke is out of order!

I read that as "candles and coke" at first.



Welcome to my nightmare.
That's pretty much how I feel about not only Mantlo's run, but v2 as well. In fact, all the post-1 volumes (some of them just had more enjoyable strangers than others).

v1 does get better, though (imho). Just, not in a hurry. And it'll never be as good as it was under Byrne.

Thanks for the reassurance. I am going to read #34. Knowing that Puck is really just has the whatever-of-some-sword living in him that has shrunk and causes his pain. I guess Mantlo thought our imaginations needed that? Puck needed some sort of history boost?

Oh! I forgot that scan I was going to post yesterday (or some day, don't remember). I had to read this a few times to convince myself Heather wasn't completely heartless.
http://s17.postimg.org/ppw3o2xy7/3201.jpg

[Phil]

The most bizarre thing about the Puck storyline, and Mantlo's run as a whole, is that in the Amazing Heroes interview with him & Byrne for the switch-over he seemed so knowledgeable and respectful of Byrne's run and seemed to have loads of good, respectful ideas...

[Crackity Jones]

The most bizarre thing about the Puck storyline, and Mantlo's run as a whole, is that in the Amazing Heroes interview with him & Byrne for the switch-over he seemed so knowledgeable and respectful of Byrne's run and seemed to have loads of good, respectful ideas...

What happened???

Because Heather just got even WORSE in #34.
This is really bad. :(

[Le Messor]

Heather won't get better, I'm afraid.
It will be a little better during Mantlo's run, but mostly it's after that that things get good again.
Hey, you'll eventually get to Jim Lee's first artwork for Marvel. If you stick around long enough.

~ Le Messor
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
~ Winston Churchill

[Crackity Jones]

Heather won't get better, I'm afraid.
*cries*
But I loved her so much under Byrne. How Mantlo wrote her was just STUPID.

Now, apparently, Mac not only KNEW about Wolverine's Adamantium skeleton, but knew before they "met" Wolverine on their honeymoon. Or something. Who knows. He's turned her into an indecisive idiot ("could I love Wolverine? Maybe? If I didn't love Mac. But MAC LIED!BUTILOVEMAC") who is seeking, rather openly, how to be decisive (TRAIN ME, I AM THE LEADER), but it's such failure.
Yet again, a writer at Marvel proves he has no idea how to write a strong female character. *sigh*.


It will be a little better during Mantlo's run, but mostly it's after that that things get good again.
Hey, you'll eventually get to Jim Lee's first artwork for Marvel. If you stick around long enough.

Oh, I'll be sticking around. At least I am going to try damn hard to. I love too many of these characters not to read the rest. Curiosity on how bad they get screwed up would kill me if I stopped reading it now.
I am going to wait it out to see what he has in store for Aurora and Northstar, Bochs/Box, and Jeffries.
But how he reinvented Puck and Heather is just killing me. But at least Puck is back to his original state. Heather is the girl everyone is in love with who cannot decide if she wants to be mean, nice, or just feel super awful for herself.

[Crackity Jones]

Oh, and it appears Shaman is back.
Cannot wait to see HIS new Mantlo suit.

[Le Messor]

I am going to wait it out to see what he has in store for Aurora and Northstar, Bochs/Box, and Jeffries.

Oh, and it appears Shaman is back. Cannot wait to see HIS new Mantlo suit.

Mik lets a single manly tear roll down his cheek.

[Crackity Jones]

I don't mind Northstar and Aurora so far, in fact, I like the use of Northstar's snark towards Heather (she freaking deserves it, imo, but wouldn't if Mantlo hadn't written her the way he did).

[Flightpath07]

I read that as "candles and coke" at first.

S'okay, I read it as "drugs and candy".

Where are The Daves when you really need 'em?

[Crackity Jones]

S'okay, I read it as "drugs and candy".

I promise not to bring them for dinner.


Where are The Daves when you really need 'em?

"RAZETHETOWNMY****CAKES!"

[Le Messor]

I don't mind Northstar and Aurora so far, in fact, I like the use of Northstar's snark towards Heather (she freaking deserves it, imo, but wouldn't if Mantlo hadn't written her the way he did).

Not to 50! Not to 50!

[Flightpath07]

I promise not to bring them for dinner.



"RAZETHETOWNMY****CAKES!"

Ah...my grin could not get any bigger.

[Crackity Jones]

I am going to tell myself that Heather is just in a different stage of grieving. Like, that weird stage that must occur at some point after losing your significant other, where you convince yourself that you are better than, and it's okay to talk poorly about, your deceased significant other.

[Le Messor]

Ah, yes, the stages of grief:
Denial Bargaining Depression AcceptanceWrath Envy Pride Pestilence War Famine Death Slaughter Dopey Sneezy

[Flightpath07]

Ah, yes, the stages of grief:
Denial Bargaining Depression AcceptanceWrath Envy Pride Pestilence War Famine Death Slaughter Dopey Sneezy

Aren't those also the stages of matrimony?

Somehow, I am supposing that "AcceptanceWrath" must be MUCH angrier than just wrath by itself, only you are okay with it.

[Crackity Jones]

You guys are fantastic. <3

[Phil]

Sometimes we're Uncanny, Amazing & Astonishing.

[Crackity Jones]

Sometimes we're Uncanny, Amazing & Astonishing.

And awesome and adorable.
But those aren't in any comic book titles, but they still deserve mentioning.

[Le Messor]

I usually get 'Sinister', but I like uncanny and adorable better. ;)

[Flightpath07]

I get "Bieberlike" and "Mostly Forgettable".

[Le Messor]

... but you repeat yourself...

[Flightpath07]

... but you repeat yourself...

Don't make me use my AcceptanceWrath on you! :)

[Le Messor]

Agh! That's the worst kind!

[Crackity Jones]

Does Northstar ever stop taking jabs at Heather?
Because I hope not.
It's probably the most entertaining part of Mantlo's run so far.

[Le Messor]

For the purposes of your question...
I won't answer, you're avoiding all spoilers.

[Crackity Jones]

For the purposes of your question...
I won't answer, you're avoiding all spoilers.

Pretty, please?

[Le Messor]

If you really, really want to know...

2
0

y
e
a
r

o
l
d

s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s

... I won't answer. I'll just say, 'kinda, yes'.

[Crackity Jones]

If you really, really want to know...

2
0

y
e
a
r

o
l
d

s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s

... I won't answer. I'll just say, 'kinda, yes'.

As I have found out.
I read through #39 today. And while I still cannot stand Heather (for the most part), I will say the inclusion of anything Namor/Atlantis is a HUGE plus for me.
I love how he gave Northstar orders, and Northstar didn't obey (not that he really could).
Most of any gripes I have about any of the issues I read today are only minor and pertain to the use of Namor underwater, and not really Alpha Flight.
Maybe I'm just adjusting to the crappiness?

[Le Messor]

That's not what I was referring to, with Northstar kind of sort of no longer griping at Heather.

[Crackity Jones]

That's not what I was referring to, with Northstar kind of sort of no longer griping at Heather.

I am confused then.
I meant snarky jabs at her leadership skills (or lack of).
Because that's what *I* was talking about.
And I noticed a kind of turn away from that in the few issues I read yesterday.
He had some realizations, then later on said something snarky to her again, and then had another small realization of sorts, and was fine after that.

[Flightpath07]

Northstar was always best when he was snarky. His early battles with Walt, but with word and with fist, were some of what drew me to this series.

[Crackity Jones]

Northstar was always best when he was snarky. His early battles with Walt, but with word and with fist, were some of what drew me to this series.

In the very first issue of AF, I didn't think I'd like Northstar OR Aurora because I felt the issue was really dramatic (with her fainting and all of that), but of course I grew fond of both characters as the series went on.
Right now, I live for his snark.
It's one of the only things that has kept me reading Mantlo's run.:(
Because everytime Heather is written to think anything or say anything, I just want to sob.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Just read all of #32.
Wtf did I just read?

Whhhyyyyyy. WWWWHHHHHYYYYYYY.
PUCK.
WWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.

So, seriously, Puck hasn't always been a dwarf?
This has me seriously WTFing.

Somebody has probably said how it could happen, but if RAZER was inside of Judd since the 1930s, why didn't he try to escape when Judd was nearly disemboweled (in AF vol.1 # 2)? Did he like being inside of Judd then, but just had to get out in AF# 32?

Hang on to something, CJ...it gets even more inconsistent from here.

[Le Messor]

I am confused then.
I meant snarky jabs at her leadership skills (or lack of).
Because that's what *I* was talking about.

Don't assume my memory of these events is that detailed. I'm thinking, though, that he will stop taking jabs at her eventually.

Also, Garry, you make a good point.

~ Le Messor
"He has no enemies, but is intensely disliked by his friends."
~ Oscar Wilde

[Crackity Jones]

Don't assume my memory of these events is that detailed. I'm thinking, though, that he will stop taking jabs at her eventually.

Also, Garry, you make a good point.

~ Le Messor
"He has no enemies, but is intensely disliked by his friends."
~ Oscar Wilde

I would never assume such things.

[Flightpath07]

In the very first issue of AF, I didn't think I'd like Northstar OR Aurora because I felt the issue was really dramatic (with her fainting and all of that), but of course I grew fond of both characters as the series went on.
Right now, I live for his snark.
It's one of the only things that has kept me reading Mantlo's run.:(
Because everytime Heather is written to think anything or say anything, I just want to sob.

If you like Northstar's snarkiness, then there are probably more than a few early guest appearances of Alpha Flight that uphold that tradition. I'm thinking perhaps the Machine Man appearance, for instance? I'm sure somebody here who is more knowledgeable about these things could probably point you towards a few of these said guest appearances and such. Most of them are sure to be easier-to-swallow than a lot of Mantlo's run, unfortunately.

[Crackity Jones]

I LOVE Northstar's snarkiness...towards Heather. :D

I recently received an order of a bunch of different Northstar-related reads. :D
I wish Aurora was used as much as Northstar is (or has been lately, but he could still use a better part in AXM).

I will be ordering more AF today, so I am probably going to put off reading the rest of what I have for a few days (I only have 7 issues left to read, and I know I will go through those fast).

[Crackity Jones]

Much reading has happened in the past week or so.
I made it up to #44 or #45.
Which ever has Sasquatch's return.
So, yeah, Pestilence possessed Snowbird's unborn baby. O_o
Heather had to kill Sasquatchbird, her husband, and her baby O_o
Spirit Snowbird, husband, and baby were accepted by the gods into paradise.
SnowbirdSasquatch returned from the dead because: Pestilence became Sasquatch.
Oh, Smart Alec's body came out of Shaman's pouch possessed by Walter because he had no mind.
All fought SnowbirdSasquatch's body possessed by Pestilence.
Couldn't beat Pestilence so Walter (who was in Box) then possessed SnowbirdSasquatch's body.
Aurora who had just had sexy times with the new and improved Bochs then realizes Walter is back (this may not be in order), asks about his ability to morph into a human.
He does, but he's a woman.
THE END OF WHAT I HAVE READ.

I left out the painful ups and downs of Heather's stupid thought bubbles, and Puck's "OHMYGODILOVEHEATHERBUTSHECANNOTLOVEADWARF" woe moments.

I am not thinking too much about what I just read because WTF.

[Tawmis]

So, yeah, Pestilence possessed Snowbird's unborn baby. O_o
Heather had to kill Sasquatchbird, her husband, and her baby O_o


Welcome to the worse part of Alpha Flight, for me. Well one of the worse. You still have the Llan the Sorcerer story ahead of you... But this particular story really bothered me, because it just continued to ruin Heather's character of "There's no way to help them - so kill them!" motto. And it was freaking Snowbird. One of my all time favorites...



Oh, Smart Alec's body came out of Shaman's pouch possessed by Walter because he had no mind.


Begs to question, what happened to Smart Alec's mind...



THE END OF WHAT I HAVE READ.
I left out the painful ups and downs of Heather's stupid thought bubbles, and Puck's "OHMYGODILOVEHEATHERBUTSHECANNOTLOVEADWARF" woe moments.
I am not thinking too much about what I just read because WTF.

Keep reading. It gets worse, then eventually better. And a little confusing. Then a lot confusing.

[Crackity Jones]

Oh! And I forgot to mention Purple Girl and the mind-rapey thing she did to Northstar.
And how Heather's freaking fantastic comment about how he was only upset because it was a girl.
HOW AWESOME WAS THAT?!?!

That was an even larger WTF reading moment for me than Heather killing SasquatchBird, her husband, and her baby. <---Not that that didn't WTF me, but Heather just cannot get much more stupid at this point to me.

[Crackity Jones]

Oh, and AURORA.
All the jokes and thought bubbles at the expense of Northstar's sexuality.
*siiiigggghhhhh*

[Tawmis]

That was an even larger WTF reading moment for me than Heather killing SasquatchBird, her husband, and her baby. <---Not that that didn't WTF me, but Heather just cannot get much more stupid at this point to me.

We agree.

[Le Messor]

And that, Crackity, is why people hate Mantlo's run so.

[Flightpath07]

And that, Crackity, is why people hate Mantlo's run so.

No, not me. At first, I hated it mainly because of the art; very dark, creepy, and ink-y. Yuck. His writing style and his disregard for the characters? - I learned to hate that a bit later.

[Tawmis]

And that, Crackity, is why people hate Mantlo's run so.

I still dislike the Llan the Sorcerer storyline over anything Bill did. Even the killing of Snowbird.

[Le Messor]

I didn't say it was the *first* reason...

Mignola was not right for the series. Nor was Gerry Talaoc.

~ Le Messor
"In order to avoid being called a flirt, she always yielded easily."
~ Charles, Count Talleyrand

[Le Messor]

I still dislike the Llan the Sorcerer storyline over anything Bill did...

Didn't that begin with Mantlo's run and bleed into James Hudnall's?

(And was half editorially mandated; 'Sandman is hot, Sandman is horror, ergo horror is hot, ipso facto make all our comics must be horror. Ipso Facto! Vis-a-vis! Concordantly! ... at least, that's what many of us have heard.)

[Flightpath07]

Wasn't the Llan the Sorcerer plotline "editorially cancelled", and therefore had to be wrapped up far more quickly than the writer (Hudnall, right?) wanted it to? Or the writer was pulled from the book, mid-story? Something like that.

I thought Llan had potential. But when an editor makes a decision that causes a writer to have to change and hurry things along, that is NEVER a good thing for the plot of the book. N-E-V-E-R. I cannot get enough distaste into my typing to convey how I feel about that sort of thing.

[Crackity Jones]

#47 was a Heather solo issue.
And! Does Northstar's illness end up being the comic book version of AIDS? I have this hunch that I think Mantlo would actually go 'there'.
I would actually prefer to think that he wouldn't, so if my hunch is wrong, please, do tell me it is. I'd really love to think that Mantlo isn't that bad.
And does Mantlo ruin "The Gift" by bringing it back up and playing off of it? Because, omfg, these things are too much.
I ask about "The Gift" because I just started #50 last night.

And, is it me, or is it just outright GROSS that Mantlo is seemingly pairing up Knapp and Purple Girl?
It was CLEARLY stated that she is only 13 years old, and I would assume that Knapp is considerably older since he was an intern for a "doctor".
WHY were these things allowed to happen????

[Crackity Jones]

No, not me. At first, I hated it mainly because of the art; very dark, creepy, and ink-y. Yuck. His writing style and his disregard for the characters? - I learned to hate that a bit later.

My dislike started as early as, what, his second issue on his run?
I remember posting here that #29 wasn't bad. But #30 blew my freaking mind because Heather was already annoying the piss out of me.
And that has NOT changed.

I am ONLY reading this series, still, because Byrne made me LOVE these characters. And a morbid curiosity keeps me needing to know how badly Mantlo is going to screw these characters up.

But, you guys, this does get better, right? Not Mantlo's run, but EVENTUALLY, someone came along and TRIED to make Alpha Flight better, yes?

[rplass]

Well, I liked Mantlo's run a lot and also the rest of the original v1 130 issues. Don't get sucked into the Mantlobashing. New writers change things. He changed some things. Many things changed back. Some changes were awesome.

The coughing was supposed to be AIDS, yes, but never made it into the actual comic. AIDS did show up later in the run, but with a different character.

And yeah, Kara's a bit young for Knapp. I was too wrapped up in his awesome powers to really notice. I was also too wrapped up in wishing I had Kara's powers myself to notice. Didn't want the purple skin, though.

[Crackity Jones]

I understand that writers change things. I understand stories have to be told.
I know these things. Alpha Flight isn't the first series I've read. :)
Going from what Byrne did, though, to what Mantlo did (or is doing, as I'm still reading his run) has been a difficult transition. I, personally, do not like it when characters are ruined to build other characters or to build other stories. However, I DO understand it to a degree because I know there are stories to be told.
I understood when Claremont did it to Captain Britain and Meggan so he could build Nightcrawler and others in Excalibur. I didn't like it, though, but I was still able to enjoy Excalibur.
But not only, imo, is Mantlo seemingly ruining EVERY character in AF, but his stories are off-the-wall even for comics, and even though, to me, it's OBVIOUS that he tried to build Heather into some awesome leader at the expense of every single character on the team, he even failed at that. He seemed clueless. At least so far. I am open to that changing, if it does. And IF it does, I'll be the first to admit it.

[Phil]

I enjoy Mantlo's run.
I prefer it to Nicieza and Lobdell's runs later on.

The problem is that it was jaunting following straight on from Byrne as the characterization/writing was noticeably different.
I think people would slate Mantlo's run less had it been later on in the title's history; there's still a lot of good stuff in there - characters, ideas, development. It just doesn't all mesh.

[Crackity Jones]

Everytime I think "Awww. Things are going good. It's going to be okay."
That is immediately destroyed either in the next panel or the next page by something else. Cancelled out. Usually by something stupid Heather either thinks or says.
The Woe of Puck is really starting to kind of get on my nerves as well. He is better than that.
I'll give it that it's action-packed. I do like that. But the characters aren't right. And the stories are insane. And I'm usually all for quirky, crazy stories. These just don't feel fun.

[Tawmis]

Didn't that begin with Mantlo's run and bleed into James Hudnall's?
(And was half editorially mandated; 'Sandman is hot, Sandman is horror, ergo horror is hot, ipso facto make all our comics must be horror. Ipso Facto! Vis-a-vis! Concordantly! ... at least, that's what many of us have heard.)

According to Wikipedia, for Llan the Sorcerer:
Created by (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Comics_creators) James D. Hudnall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_D._Hudnall) and John Calimee (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Calimee&action=edit&redlink=1)



Wasn't the Llan the Sorcerer plotline "editorially cancelled", and therefore had to be wrapped up far more quickly than the writer (Hudnall, right?) wanted it to? Or the writer was pulled from the book, mid-story? Something like that.
I thought Llan had potential. But when an editor makes a decision that causes a writer to have to change and hurry things along, that is NEVER a good thing for the plot of the book. N-E-V-E-R. I cannot get enough distaste into my typing to convey how I feel about that sort of thing.

If it was cancelled, they waited a long time. If I remember correctly, the story for Llan the Sorcerer ran like 3 or 4 issues. Or perhaps it just felt that long.



And! Does Northstar's illness end up being the comic book version of AIDS? I have this hunch that I think Mantlo would actually go 'there'.
I would actually prefer to think that he wouldn't, so if my hunch is wrong, please, do tell me it is. I'd really love to think that Mantlo isn't that bad.


Just wait. It comes up.



And, is it me, or is it just outright GROSS that Mantlo is seemingly pairing up Knapp and Purple Girl?
It was CLEARLY stated that she is only 13 years old, and I would assume that Knapp is considerably older since he was an intern for a "doctor".
WHY were these things allowed to happen????

Age in comics is always weird. As for underage and older - just look at Kitty and Colossus in the beginning.



My dislike started as early as, what, his second issue on his run?


My original dislike was the origin he gave Puck. I wouldn't have minded Razer being in him. I just didn't like that when it wasn't, he turned into an old man. I would have rather that he kept the demon inside of him (if at all), but remained his size - and that's why it possibly ******ed his aging process - but don't age him suddenly.



I remember posting here that #29 wasn't bad. But #30 blew my freaking mind because Heather was already annoying the piss out of me.
And that has NOT changed.


For me, it took a deeper turn when he did what he did to Snowbird. I can't put into words how much I hated that story. I didn't mind Pestilence - I thought that was actually a GREAT concept and origin for the villain - just hated the end result with Snowbird.



I am ONLY reading this series, still, because Byrne made me LOVE these characters. And a morbid curiosity keeps me needing to know how badly Mantlo is going to screw these characters up.


Other writers will make it worse. But...



But, you guys, this does get better, right? Not Mantlo's run, but EVENTUALLY, someone came along and TRIED to make Alpha Flight better, yes?

Yes, I think so. But then later, I strongly dislike how Sasquatch is drawn. It's like they didn't even look at how he's supposed to be drawn, and rather gave him Wolverine's hair style.



Well, I liked Mantlo's run a lot and also the rest of the original v1 130 issues. Don't get sucked into the Mantlobashing. New writers change things. He changed some things. Many things changed back. Some changes were awesome.


I agree. I think Bill did some good things, and had some good ideas. Just some of it, was executed poorly. But as you said, some other writers come along with their own bad spins on Alpha Flight, within the original series - but also have good ideas, too. For example, James Hudnall did the Llan the Sorcerer story (which I have probably made very clear on every Alpha Flight related thread, how much I hate it) - but he also did DreamQueen (I believe), which I thought was some of the best stuff, post Byrne in the original series. So, you take the good with the bad.



I understand that writers change things. I understand stories have to be told.
I know these things. Alpha Flight isn't the first series I've read. :smile:
Going from what Byrne did, though, to what Mantlo did (or is doing, as I'm still reading his run) has been a difficult transition. I, personally, do not like it when characters are ruined to build other characters or to build other stories. However, I DO understand it to a degree because I know there are stories to be told.


Yes, but to be fair, it's really hard to follow up with Byrne in the prime of his stuff. This was a time that Byrne was really on top of his game.



I understood when Claremont did it to Captain Britain and Meggan so he could build Nightcrawler and others in Excalibur. I didn't like it, though, but I was still able to enjoy Excalibur.


That's a good example (not so much Excalbur, for what I want to say - but Clairemont). Chris Clairemont is hailed as one of the X-Men gods, for what he did with the Uncanny X-Men when it first got relaunched. And to me, to this day, that's still my favorite comic writing (Uncanny X-Men #94 through #175, as well as adjective-less original X-Men relaunch with him and Jim Lee, remains a series of comics, I can read, repeatedly, and feel like there are NO bad issues! I don't believe he did that entire run, but he's responsible for the majority of it - especially the early on stuff).

Now, many years ago, Chris Clairemont returned to the Uncanny X-Men. And he brought in the Neo-Mutants, I believe they were called. That was some absolutely horrible writing. So even someone who was hailed the best, has their bad days!



But not only, imo, is Mantlo seemingly ruining EVERY character in AF, but his stories are off-the-wall even for comics, and even though, to me, it's OBVIOUS that he tried to build Heather into some awesome leader at the expense of every single character on the team, he even failed at that. He seemed clueless. At least so far. I am open to that changing, if it does. And IF it does, I'll be the first to admit it.

Like I said either here or at the other forum where we were talking Alpha Flight - I think he was trying to turn Heather not into a strong female, but a tough female. A Seigonie (sp?) Weaver of ALIENS type. Shoot to kill, ask questions later, if it twitches. So it wasn't so much a strong female (say like Valkyrie, Mystique, etc) - but more of a tough, shoot to kill type. No idea why he would do this - as this was a VERY sharp contrast to the more tender, caring, Heather, who wanted to do what she could to help a savage Wolverine/Logan, when he was first found.


I enjoy Mantlo's run.
I prefer it to Nicieza and Lobdell's runs later on.

The problem is that it was jaunting following straight on from Byrne as the characterization/writing was noticeably different.
I think people would slate Mantlo's run less had it been later on in the title's history; there's still a lot of good stuff in there - characters, ideas, development. It just doesn't all mesh.

Agreed. As I said, hard to follow Bryne at his prime. And Bill had a lot of great ideas, I just didn't care for how he executed some of them.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Much reading has happened in the past week or so.
I made it up to #44 or #45.
Which ever has Sasquatch's return.
So, yeah, Pestilence possessed Snowbird's unborn baby. O_o
Heather had to kill Sasquatchbird, her husband, and her baby O_o
Spirit Snowbird, husband, and baby were accepted by the gods into paradise.
SnowbirdSasquatch returned from the dead because: Pestilence became Sasquatch.
Oh, Smart Alec's body came out of Shaman's pouch possessed by Walter because he had no mind.
All fought SnowbirdSasquatch's body possessed by Pestilence.
Couldn't beat Pestilence so Walter (who was in Box) then possessed SnowbirdSasquatch's body.
Aurora who had just had sexy times with the new and improved Bochs then realizes Walter is back (this may not be in order), asks about his ability to morph into a human.
He does, but he's a woman.
THE END OF WHAT I HAVE READ.

I left out the painful ups and downs of Heather's stupid thought bubbles, and Puck's "OHMYGODILOVEHEATHERBUTSHECANNOTLOVEADWARF" woe moments.

I am not thinking too much about what I just read because WTF.

This is just me, but a second Pestilence story makes absolutely no sense. Accepting Pestilence (a mortal from the 19th century) somehow hijacked the essence of a quarter-breed transmorph (aka Snowbird & Doug Thompson's baby) in AF# 37/38, he arrogantly states that he has dominion over DEATH & DECAY, while disparaging 7 GREAT BEASTS (who are a lot older than Crozier & have been at it a lot longer). Somon (at the very least should have taken acception to this); I don't think Tundra (the real Tundra) would have let that slide, either. And I doubt the others who were shown (if they had had any personality at all) would have put up with an upstart like Pestilence.

The real GREAT BEASTS would've made sure Pestilence paid for his presumptuousness. Therefore, the idiocy of the Pestilence/Snowbird-Sasquatch deathathon should not have happened.

Then Alpha Flight would've had to deal with the GREAT BEASTS.

[Le Messor]

Well, I liked Mantlo's run a lot and also the rest of the original v1 130 issues. Don't get sucked into the Mantlobashing.

Seems to me this is a case of forming Mantlobashing of her own, rather than getting 'sucked in'. :P

I really dislike Mantlo's run; on volume 1, there are no runs I dislike worse... but it's still entertaining, and there are other runs I'm not fond of. Fabian Nicieza (who's written some stuff I love) had a terrible run.
I'm not fond of the Llan the Sorcerer storyline, though it's not my 'most-hated'; but I do admire Hudnall's work. He made me enjoy an issue with Calimee's art! How do you DO that?!?

That said, I still preferred any of volume one to either 2 or 4.


According to Wikipedia, for Llan the Sorcerer:
Created by (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Comics_creators) James D. Hudnall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_D._Hudnall) and John Calimee (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Calimee&action=edit&redlink=1)

James Hudnall did the Llan the Sorcerer story (which I have probably made very clear on every Alpha Flight related thread, how much I hate it) - but he also did DreamQueen (I believe),

If it wasn't Llan who began in Mantlo's run and bled over into Hudnall's, it was DreamQueen. So, yeah, you can give Mantlo that, too.


- and that's why it possibly ******ed his aging process - but don't age him suddenly.

It's still doing that to you, Tawmis? (the word was r e t a r d e d, as in slowed.)


I agree. I think Bill did some good things, and had some good ideas.

Of course.
It's just outweighed by the bad.


Yes, but to be fair, it's really hard to follow up with Byrne in the prime of his stuff. This was a time that Byrne was really on top of his game.

True. Very true.
But they can do a much better job than this.
Then again, given the personal issues Mantlo was going through at the time, it isn't fair to expect much of him.


Chris Clairemont... that's still my favorite comic writing (Uncanny X-Men #94 through #175,

Claremont started a little later than that, around #100 (but not #100) or so.


A Seigonie (sp?) Weaver of ALIENS type.

Sigourney.

~ Le Messor
"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it."
~ Groucho Marx.

[Le Messor]

If it wasn't Llan who began in Mantlo's run and bled over into Hudnall's, it was DreamQueen. So, yeah, you can give Mantlo that, too.

... Of course, I could just check...
Yep, #58 was written by Mantlo and has DQ in it.

[Phil]

According to Wikipedia, for Llan the Sorcerer:
Created by (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Comics_creators) James D. Hudnall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_D._Hudnall) and John Calimee (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Calimee&action=edit&redlink=1)
Don't always take Wikipedia as fact, but in this case; yup. First appearance AF #71.


That said, I still preferred any of volume one to either 2 or 4.
But not 3? Surprising


Claremont started a little later than that, around #100 (but not #100) or so.
Hate to be 'that guy' but Tawmis was spot on, #94 was his first issue; straight after GSXM #1

[Le Messor]

But not 3? Surprising

It's bad, but enjoyably so.


Hate to be 'that guy' but Tawmis was spot on, #94 was his first issue; straight after GSXM #1

Why not? I was 'that guy' first. And, I've just checked my Marvel Masterworks edition... You and Tawmis are right, #94 was his first. I've thought otherwise for a long time; I wonder why?

~ Le Messor
"More people have died in Teddy Kennedy's car than in nuclear power plants."

[Flightpath07]

Phil, don't we have a James Hudnall interview somewhere on the site, where he talks about Llan? Or was that one of the editors who talked about Llan? I definitely recall reading that the storyline was meant to be much longer than it was.

[Phil]

You're correct on several fronts:
http://alphaflight.net/content.php?124-James-D-Hudnall-Interview

(http://alphaflight.net/content.php?124-James-D-Hudnall-Interview)Crackity - don't read that yet!!!

[Flightpath07]

You're correct on several fronts[/URL]Crackity - don't read that yet!!!

Dang it, I need a screen-capture of this! lol. My two ex-wives would NEVER believe it to be true!

[Flightpath07]

Re-reading that interview, I'd hire him to do another Alpha series; it seems like he really cared about the characters a lot!

[Crackity Jones]

Seems to me this is a case of forming Mantlobashing of her own, rather than getting 'sucked in'. :P

You're d@mn right. I am bashing Mantlo's run so far. I love these characters, and his run, so far, has been the trainwreck I cannot stop watching (reading). Making Purple Girl mind rape/control/WHATEVER Northstar and then having Heather make a joke about it is completely unacceptable, imo.
Changing Puck's origins is completely unacceptable, imo. Making everyone on the team, basically, insult Northstar and make jokes about his sexuality, is completely unacceptable, imo. I have NO IDEA what Byrne would have done with these characters had he continued on with the series, but most of what I have read that Mantlo has done is just...Well, for all this BS, I'd better get Mac back SOON. SOON.
NO MORE CHILDREN INSIDE TREE PEOPLE. And, please, no more solo Heather issues.
I am hanging on and will continue to read because I love these characters that much.

[Crackity Jones]

You're correct on several fronts:
http://alphaflight.net/content.php?124-James-D-Hudnall-Interview

(http://alphaflight.net/content.php?124-James-D-Hudnall-Interview)Crackity - don't read that yet!!!

Thank you, Phil. :)
I won't read it yet.

[Flightpath07]

Thank you, Phil. :)
I won't read it yet.

Once you are done with Hudnall's issues, you might want to give it a once-over, it does explain a lot about what the poop went on. There are actually a lot of cool interviews buried (?) on this site.

[Phil]

Re-reading that interview, I'd hire him to do another Alpha series; it seems like he really cared about the characters a lot!
It's always hard to judge.
Everyone uses the 'big fans of the team and Byrne' line in interviews but they never do it justice.
Mantlo is the biggest example of this, to bring it all full circle.

[Le Messor]

It's always hard to judge.
Everyone uses the 'big fans of the team and Byrne' line in interviews but they never do it justice.
Mantlo is the biggest example of this, to bring it all full circle.

I want to see those scripts he spoke of; I think they'd be cool. We could judge for ourselves the difference between his vision and the published version.

[Phil]

Making Purple Girl mind rape/control/WHATEVER Northstar
It was definitely creepy.
I can see what Mantlo was going for in a parallel to a student crush on a teacher and what they'd do if they suddenly had mind-control powers... it was just poorly executed.


Changing Puck's origins is completely unacceptable, imo.
I like Eugene the adventurer and I like the idea of Razaar but am in agreement that Puck should have remained what he was and should never have been a regular human before the curse.
Had Mantlo introduced Razaar into a dwarf Puck it would have been the best non-Byrne idea, IMO.
The height issue makes no sense at all and serves no purpose.


Making everyone on the team, basically, insult Northstar and make jokes about his sexuality, is completely unacceptable, imo.
I think a lot of this issue is hard to judge in hindsight now.
Let's remember that at the time these comics were published they wouldn't have been able to show Northstar's sexuality, or even use the word 'gay' or 'homosexual'
Mantlo was possibly trying to be subtle, based on what Byrne had told him, and was hindered by the comics code and editorial at the time.


I'd better get Mac back SOON. SOON.
And, please, no more solo Heather issues.
It's a strange one, as I preferred Heather as the supportive wife and person that kept it all together behind the scenes in Byrne's run, however over the course of the 130 issue run I definitely think Heather is a better leader than Mac. Although that's probably based upon the dubious retcons of Mac's decisions that you have yet to reach...

[Phil]

There are actually a lot of cool interviews buried (?) on this site.

From the homepage (http://alphaflight.net/) just click on either of the Interviews (http://alphaflight.net/content.php?2-Interviews) tabs:
4052

[Flightpath07]

From the homepage (http://alphaflight.net/) just click on either of the Interviews (http://alphaflight.net/content.php?2-Interviews) tabs:
4052

D'oh!

Wait, there's a Homepage? lol

[Crackity Jones]

It was definitely creepy.
I can see what Mantlo was going for in a parallel to a student crush on a teacher and what they'd do if they suddenly had mind-control powers... it was just poorly executed.

Maybe that's my problem then: I have no idea what Mantlo was going for. I just know what I am reading is messed up. haha. But what you say makes sense.



I like Eugene the adventurer and I like the idea of Razaar but am in agreement that Puck should have remained what he was and should never have been a regular human before the curse.
Had Mantlo introduced Razaar into a dwarf Puck it would have been the best non-Byrne idea, IMO.
The height issue makes no sense at all and serves no purpose.

Exactly. These things would have been okay had they existed, maybe, separately. Or done separately, in some way.



I think a lot of this issue is hard to judge in hindsight now.
Let's remember that at the time these comics were published they wouldn't have been able to show Northstar's sexuality, or even use the word 'gay' or 'homosexual'
Mantlo was possibly trying to be subtle, based on what Byrne had told him, and was hindered by the comics code and editorial at the time.

Yes, I agree and am well aware that my reaction to most of Mantlo's run so far has been that I'm reading it currently, so that will cause my reaction to possibly be different than had I read it in the 80's. Because, yeah, times have changed. Things are accepted now that were not accepted then.



It's a strange one, as I preferred Heather as the supportive wife and person that kept it all together behind the scenes in Byrne's run, however over the course of the 130 issue run I definitely think Heather is a better leader than Mac. Although that's probably based upon the dubious retcons of Mac's decisions that you have yet to reach...

I've heard this as well. But Heather is really, really been the most difficult for me. I LOVED her under Byrne. She was my fave (besides Mac). And she is completely different under Mantlo. Her character was changed the most. And I think it was done extremely awkwardly.

[Phil]

It's easy for me to sit here and judge now as I know what comes after Mantlo.
I pretty much went through the exact stages of emotions and views you went through; which is a sign that there's something universally wrong with Mantlo's run.

[Crackity Jones]

It's easy for me to sit here and judge now as I know what comes after Mantlo.
I pretty much went through the exact stages of emotions and views you went through; which is a sign that there's something universally wrong with Mantlo's run.

Yes, that there is. I just wonder what would have possessed him to do with the series what he did. A lot of it, so far, has seemed like shock value quality.
For example, Northstar being gay: I understand this was not allowed to be written about in comics back then, so that it was just strongly hinted on, but to me, it could have been hinted at differently instead of everyone making the occasional crack on Northstar. It was still done distastefully.

[Le Messor]

Maybe that's my problem then: I have no idea what Mantlo was going for. I just know what I am reading is messed up. haha. But what you say makes sense.

I'm still gonna put it on Mantlo; he's the one who didn't make his intentions clear.
OTOH, rape is okay if it happens to a guy (huge eyeroll here).


Yes, I agree and am well aware that my reaction to most of Mantlo's run so far has been that I'm reading it currently, so that will cause my reaction to possibly be different than had I read it in the 80's.

For example, Northstar being gay: I understand this was not allowed to be written about in comics back then, so that it was just strongly hinted on, but to me, it could have been hinted at differently instead of everyone making the occasional crack on Northstar. It was still done distastefully.

I don't know... If you read it back then, you might not know Northstar was gay. The jibes aren't as obvious without hindsight; so it's harder to say how you might react.
That said, Byrne handled it much better. Of course.


Because, yeah, times have changed. Things are accepted now that were not accepted then.

Many things have been lost that should not have been forgotten, and things have been found that perhaps were better left...
(I'm trying for Galadriel's voiceover from Fellowship here... the fact that I feel the need to tell you should say about how much I think I'm succeeding.)


It's easy for me to sit here and judge now as I know what comes after Mantlo.

And that's what I like about it; it's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, judging Mantlo's run. </Jack Handey>


I pretty much went through the exact stages of emotions and views you went through; which is a sign that there's something universally wrong with Mantlo's run.

Agreed.


Yes, that there is. I just wonder what would have possessed him to do with the series what he did. A lot of it, so far, has seemed like shock value quality.

Well, remember the guy was suffering a terrible burn-out at the time and was pretty much losing his art. He was actually a good writer, once.

~ Le Messor
"We love to scoff at the beliefs of the Ancients. But we can't scoff personally, to their faces, and that really bugs me."
~ Jack Handey

[Chris]

I don't know... If you read it back then, you might not know Northstar was gay. The jibes aren't as obvious without hindsight; so it's harder to say how you might react.
That said, Byrne handled it much better. Of course.

I did not realize Northstar was gay until issue 100 when Marvel published a letter about the "AIDS" storyline and discussing his orientation. I always thought he was just shy around women. I was 11 years old when I first started reading Alpha Flight in 1984. There's alot of things I didn't catch around that age of reading comic books. Then after rereading all those issues years later, it was like, how did I not see that?

[Crackity Jones]

I'm still gonna put it on Mantlo; he's the one who didn't make his intentions clear.
OTOH, rape is okay if it happens to a guy (huge eyeroll here).

Of course. It's bothersome that this would ever even be something people would think. Or could think.



I don't know... If you read it back then, you might not know Northstar was gay. The jibes aren't as obvious without hindsight; so it's harder to say how you might react.
That said, Byrne handled it much better. Of course.

I think it depends upon how old you were when you first read it. Which kind of goes into what Chris said. At 10 years old, I might not have known.
12 or 14? I would have caught on. Not during Byrne's run, maybe, but during Mantlo's? Yes, I would have known Northstar was gay.



And that's what I like about it; it's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, judging Mantlo's run. </Jack Handey>

HAHAHAHA. You're the best.



Well, remember the guy was suffering a terrible burn-out at the time and was pretty much losing his art. He was actually a good writer, once.

~ Le Messor
"We love to scoff at the beliefs of the Ancients. But we can't scoff personally, to their faces, and that really bugs me."
~ Jack Handey

No, I don't remember because I didn't know. :(
All I know of Mantlo, really, is that his AF run is, at best, questionable.

[Chris]

I think it depends upon how old you were when you first read it. Which kind of goes into what Chris said. At 10 years old, I might not have known.
12 or 14? I would have caught on. Not during Byrne's run, maybe, but during Mantlo's? Yes, I would have known Northstar was gay.
I guess I was naive. Or stupid. I always thought that disease Northstar had some sort of tuberculosis. Marvel couldn't mention AIDS or have gay super heroes back in 1987. But I am so glad Marvel decided not to kill Northstar. He has always been and will always be one of my favorite Alphans and super heroes.

[Crackity Jones]

I guess I was naive. Or stupid. I always thought that disease Northstar had some sort of tuberculosis. Marvel couldn't mention AIDS or have gay super heroes back in 1987. But I am so glad Marvel decided not to kill Northstar. He has always been and will always be one of my favorite Alphans and super heroes.

No. I wouldn't have thought AIDS then either. Not at 10, 12, or even 14. But I would have caught on that he was gay at 12 or 14. I would have been too young in 1987 to have caught onto either Northstar being gay or the AIDS thing.

[Tawmis]

Hate to be 'that guy' but Tawmis was spot on, #94 was his first issue; straight after GSXM #1

Hah! Don't worry, I am typically wrong. But when it comes to early Uncanny X-Men (especially with the "new" X-Men as in Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler, etc) - I am rarely wrong about the comics back then. These days? I couldn't tell you anything about what Storm is up to, Colossus has done, etc... Sad, sad, day! But ask me about the old stuff - I am all over it!


Phil, don't we have a James Hudnall interview somewhere on the site, where he talks about Llan? Or was that one of the editors who talked about Llan? I definitely recall reading that the storyline was meant to be much longer than it was.

If he somehow says something good about Llan, I will scream.

Just read the interview. You know what, I'd give him another swing at the team too.



You're d@mn right. I am bashing Mantlo's run so far. I love these characters, and his run, so far, has been the trainwreck I cannot stop watching (reading). Making Purple Girl mind rape/control/WHATEVER Northstar and then having Heather make a joke about it is completely unacceptable, imo.


While I dislike Purple Girl, what she did to Northstar DOES make sense to me. She's young and irresponsible, not even considering consequences, as many of us did when we were 13, 14, 15, 16 and sometimes 17 years old. (I know some people in their 30's and 40's who live this way...)

Heather making jokes, is out of character. She's supposed to be the compassionate one - the heart of the team. And perhaps this is why I hate Heather in costume, because every since she put it on - she's lost all of her heart and soul.



I like Eugene the adventurer and I like the idea of Razaar but am in agreement that Puck should have remained what he was and should never have been a regular human before the curse.
Had Mantlo introduced Razaar into a dwarf Puck it would have been the best non-Byrne idea, IMO.
The height issue makes no sense at all and serves no purpose.


I can't remember if I said that in this thread, or the CBR thread - but I said the very same thing!



I think a lot of this issue is hard to judge in hindsight now.
Let's remember that at the time these comics were published they wouldn't have been able to show Northstar's sexuality, or even use the word 'gay' or 'homosexual' Mantlo was possibly trying to be subtle, based on what Byrne had told him, and was hindered by the comics code and editorial at the time.


and



For example, Northstar being gay: I understand this was not allowed to be written about in comics back then, so that it was just strongly hinted on, but to me, it could have been hinted at differently instead of everyone making the occasional crack on Northstar. It was still done distastefully.

and


I don't know... If you read it back then, you might not know Northstar was gay. The jibes aren't as obvious without hindsight; so it's harder to say how you might react. That said, Byrne handled it much better. Of course.


and

I did not realize Northstar was gay until issue 100 when Marvel published a letter about the "AIDS" storyline and discussing his orientation. I always thought he was just shy around women. I was 11 years old when I first started reading Alpha Flight in 1984. There's alot of things I didn't catch around that age of reading comic books. Then after rereading all those issues years later, it was like, how did I not see that?

See, I also think it depends on when you read it. I was probably 16 or 17 when I read this issue (back in 1996 or 1997 when it came out?). And back in 1996, as crazy as it sounds - there really wasn't a "gay" community. So I just read it as Aurora, typically just bickering with her brother - as most brothers and sisters do (I know, because I grew up with two sisters). I didn't pick up on the fact that he was gay, until quite a bit later - and even then, I wasn't even 100% sure. I was suspecting he liked guys - but didn't really know for sure, until #106. Looking back, and having re-read it, now I see Aurora's comments, around issue #8, where she says something along the lines, "Why? You have never had a problem being around men!" It's all VERY much more clear, nowadays...



It's a strange one, as I preferred Heather as the supportive wife and person that kept it all together behind the scenes in Byrne's run, however over the course of the 130 issue run I definitely think Heather is a better leader than Mac. Although that's probably based upon the dubious retcons of Mac's decisions that you have yet to reach...

I don't think Heather will ever be a better leader than Mac, because of her piss pour decisions she made during her time as the leader.



Well, remember the guy was suffering a terrible burn-out at the time and was pretty much losing his art. He was actually a good writer, once.


I agree. I enjoyed his run on ROM and MICRONAUTS (though by the end, both got quite strange...)

[Chris]

I agree. I enjoyed his run on ROM and MICRONAUTS (though by the end, both got quite strange...)

Being a huge ROM fan, I agree with what you say about ROM. I still haven't read Bill's entire Micronauts run yet. But I consider the team of Bill Mantlo and Sal Buscema the golden years of ROM. And when I say golden I don't mean Michael Golden. You ROM & Micronauts fans know what I'm talking about. Looking back, it seems to me that soon after Rom teamed up with Alpha Flight (which led me to start reading AF) and Sal Buscema leaving the book after issue 58, Bill had run out of ideas for ROM and decided to wrap up the book and end the Wraith War. The ending of the Wraith War seemed almost lackluster to me. Not sure if it was Bill's writing or Steve Ditko's art or both. And ROM's adventures in space trying to find Galador, killing off the Spaceknight Squadron from Rom Annual 2, wiping out Galador's population by evil 2nd generation Spaceknights, etc, were not my favorite ROM stories.

[Tawmis]

Being a huge ROM fan, I agree with what you say about ROM. I still haven't read Bill's entire Micronauts run yet. But I consider the team of Bill Mantlo and Sal Buscema the golden years of ROM. And when I say golden I don't mean Michael Golden. You ROM & Micronauts fans know what I'm talking about. Looking back, it seems to me that soon after Rom teamed up with Alpha Flight (which led me to start reading AF) and Sal Buscema leaving the book after issue 58, Bill had run out of ideas for ROM and decided to wrap up the book and end the Wraith War. The ending of the Wraith War seemed almost lackluster to me. Not sure if it was Bill's writing or Steve Ditko's art or both. And ROM's adventures in space trying to find Galador, killing off the Spaceknight Squadron from Rom Annual 2, wiping out Galador's population by evil 2nd generation Spaceknights, etc, were not my favorite ROM stories.

Not to detract the conversation too much - but if loved ROM, I'd recommend the ANNIHILATORS limited series (both of them).

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I'm one who dislikes the Mantlo era (which encompasses, unfortunately, the fill-in issue (#63) James Hudnall wrote before taking over the series), not only because it deviated so much from the plans and purpose stated in Amazing Heroes # 76 and Comics Feature # 42, but because it seemed as if the publisher went out of the way to destroy a team that was poised for greatness! And stringing the faithful readers along while Alpha Flight was ripped apart.

There are things that I don't attribute to the writer: Vindicator's goggles turning from blue-to-red in the middle of the Avengers-Namor-Marrina underwater story; Madison Jeffries dropping out of the Pestilence story (AF#s 37 & 38, then popping back in the book in # 39); the lack of consistency of the Wasp (and Attuma) in the AVENGERS and ALPHA FLIGHT, and; (most importantly*) Marrina's coloring going (willy-nilly) back-and-forth between green and yellow.


* We can't blame any of this...stuff on Skrulls, anymore, can we?

[Le Messor]

Hah! Don't worry, I am typically wrong. But when it comes to early Uncanny X-Men (especially with the "new" X-Men as in Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler, etc) - I am rarely wrong about the comics back then.

The example in discussion notwithstanding, I'm pretty much the same. I loved the X-Men back then, and was really interested in them as people as much as characters (or heroes). Nowadays? Meh. I could tell you what Storm's up to, vaguely (she's divorced from T'Challa and teaches at one of Xavier's schools)... and stuff. That's it.


While I dislike Purple Girl, what she did to Northstar DOES make sense to me. She's young and irresponsible, not even considering consequences,


Making sense in real terms doesn't make it a good story in fiction terms.


Marrina's coloring going (willy-nilly) back-and-forth between green and yellow.
* We can't blame any of this...stuff on Skrulls, anymore, can we?

Are you trying to suggest we could blame anything about Marrina on shapeshifting aliens?

~ Le Messor
"Morality is common sense plus consensus."
~ Mark T. Shirey

[Crackity Jones]

Are you trying to suggest we could blame anything about Marrina on shapeshifting aliens?

And her pustule-babies-oh-wait-not-babies-false-heat whatever.

[Tawmis]

* We can't blame any of this...stuff on Skrulls, anymore, can we?

It'd certainly make things easier. Hades, not even the Skrulls thought to impersonate Alpha Flight, because they're so uninfluental, apparently...



The example in discussion notwithstanding, I'm pretty much the same. I loved the X-Men back then, and was really interested in them as people as much as characters (or heroes). Nowadays? Meh. I could tell you what Storm's up to, vaguely (she's divorced from T'Challa and teaches at one of Xavier's schools)... and stuff. That's it.


We are on the same boat.



Making sense in real terms doesn't make it a good story in fiction terms.


Not always no. But in some cases, it does work. I am not sure if you're reading the new NOVA series (with Sam Alexander) - the beginning of the series was pretty rough. But when Beta Ray Bill shows up (sorry I forgot who the writer was at this time) - the series definitely found it's stride. And it showed how inexperienced Sam was as a hero - his best intentions, were often failures, because of lack of experience. So, like I said, I strongly hated the Purple Girl character - but I could see why she did what she did. (I still hated the storyline, in general, mind you, because of my dislike of the character). But I could at least understand why she might do what she did and not even consider the consequences of what she was doing...

[Crackity Jones]

Why are you discussing these things that are not Alpha Flight, Tawmis? :P

#51 revealed that Heather has lost her mind (officially) and that even though Walter is back as Wanda (though, still Walter in spirit and mind, right?) since he has a female form, he's also decided that he likes boys and was flirting with Gary Cody.
That made me laugh.

[Tawmis]

Why are you discussing these things that are not Alpha Flight, Tawmis? :P


I am too discussing Alpha Flight! There was just a side bar, about how Bill could write well (ROM and MICRONAUTS), but even by the end, that got weird - then he said he was a ROM fan, which made me say he (and YOU! AND EVERYONE!) should check out ANNIHILATORS!



#51 revealed that Heather has lost her mind (officially) and that even though Walter is back as Wanda (though, still Walter in spirit and mind, right?) since he has a female form, he's also decided that he likes boys and was flirting with Gary Cody.
That made me laugh.

The Walter/Wanda thing, would have been funny for an issue or two... Sadly...

[Chris]

I am too discussing Alpha Flight! There was just a side bar, about how Bill could write well (ROM and MICRONAUTS), but even by the end, that got weird - then he said he was a ROM fan, which made me say he (and YOU! AND EVERYONE!) should check out ANNIHILATORS!

I have both of those Annihilators mini series. Abnett and Lanning wrote a good Spaceknights / Dire Wraiths story in the first mini. And don't forget the 2nd half of those issues contained stories of Rocket Raccoon (created by Bill Mantlo) and Groot! So we are still talking about Mantlo. Wahooo!

[Flightpath07]

The Walter/Wanda thing, would have been funny for an issue or two... Sadly...

This brings me back to those two infamous words, "editorial interference" ...

But enough about that! After all, this thread is all about the Crackity One!


There was just a side bar Oh, ok. So, a guy swims up to a side bar and orders a salad, and the judge looks at him funny and says, "Counselor, do you even know where you are?"

[Tawmis]

This brings me back to those two infamous words, "editorial interference" ...


I agree. But didn't the interview say to change Walter back to Walter ASAP?



But enough about that! After all, this thread is all about the Crackity One!
Oh, ok. So, a guy swims up to a side bar and orders a salad, and the judge looks at him funny and says, "Counselor, do you even know where you are?"

The Counselor's answer in that joke is SO disgusting... I am sure everyone's heard it before though.
There is no joke. I am mostly running with it and messing with people!

[Chris]

And, is it me, or is it just outright GROSS that Mantlo is seemingly pairing up Knapp and Purple Girl?
It was CLEARLY stated that she is only 13 years old, and I would assume that Knapp is considerably older since he was an intern for a "doctor".
WHY were these things allowed to happen????

Back to Alpha Flight. After reading the Kitty Pryde and Colossus romance in Uncanny X-Men, I guess I got desensitized. I found Kara and Manikin's romance only somewhat creepy. If I was Whitman Knapp, I would have been chasing after other interns, or nurses, or even doctors.

[Crackity Jones]

You guys can talk about whatever you'd like. As long as we can talk Alpha Flight occasionally.

And, Chris: One of my other fave characters, Nightcrawler, is back to dating his sister again. And I still think it's gross. Even if they are not blood-related.
I might be too uptight at times for comics? I don't know.

[Flightpath07]

I might be too uptight at times for comics? I don't know.

You like Rat Queens, so you can't be all THAT uptight!

[Le Messor]

It'd certainly make things easier. Hades, not even the Skrulls thought to impersonate Alpha Flight, because they're so uninfluental, apparently...

Well, as I've said on another thread, the Skrulls DID impersonate Alpha Flight.


I am not sure if you're reading the new NOVA series (with Sam Alexander)

Yep! And enjoying it thoroughly...
But that's another story and shall be told at another time.


Why are you discussing these things that are not Alpha Flight, Tawmis? :P


since he has a female form, he's also decided that he likes boys and was flirting with Gary Cody.

I honestly don't remember that.


Back to Alpha Flight. After reading the Kitty Pryde and Colossus romance in Uncanny X-Men, I guess I got desensitized.

Me, too? Maybe?
Actually, I'd thought of Kara as at LEAST 16, and hadn't done the maths on Mannikin being an intern; so I never had the squick factor everybody else did.

~ Le Messor
"Most new ideas have a certain foolishness to them when first produced."
~ A.N. Whitehead

[Crackity Jones]

I honestly don't remember that.

#51. I will scan. :D

[Crackity Jones]

You like Rat Queens, so you can't be all THAT uptight!

HA!
Rat Queens is awesome, though, and doesn't have team members mind raping/controlling each other. It doesn't have 13 year olds on its team who are dating grown men.

[Tawmis]

HA!
Rat Queens is awesome, though, and doesn't have team members mind raping/controlling each other.

Why are we talking about something other than Alpha Flight, Crackity?

(Sorry, you do realize I had to say that, right?) :D

[Crackity Jones]

why are we talking about something other than alpha flight, crackity?

(sorry, you do realize i had to say that, right?) :d

i do what i want. :p

[Mekko Hotvle]

Has anyone read the AF Flashback issue or the What If?! I recently purchased those with other back issues

[Crackity Jones]

Has anyone read the AF Flashback issue or the What If?! I recently purchased those with other back issues

What are these????
I do not have.

[Phil]

I'm presuming you mean:

4135 and 4136

If so; yup yup, I'd guess that most of us here have.

Crackity definitely shouldn't have yet though.
Although I suppose the Flashback takes place before Volume 1 and the What If doesn't really matter so it wouldn't harm her to have done so yet.
They're both definitely not Byrne-esque in tone though.
The Flashback is a Volume 2 pre-cursor and the What If is very late 90's.

[Crackity Jones]

GUYS.
What is this???
http://i62.tinypic.com/2n19hxc.jpg

[Crackity Jones]

Nevermind.

[Tawmis]

i do what i want. :p

Yes, yes you do, and I adore it - as I am sure others too!


Has anyone read the AF Flashback issue or the What If?! I recently purchased those with other back issues

Yes and yes. The WHAT IF was fun, as they usually are, but I don't recall the Flashback being all that good?

[Le Messor]

i do what i want. :p

Good answer. Hey, this is your thread, and I'm sorry - this table is reserved!


Has anyone read the AF Flashback issue or the What If?! I recently purchased those with other back issues

Hey Mekko! I have both the issues Phil posted pictures of, but just to be clear:
Is that the What If...? you meant? It's the most likely one, but Alpha Flight and members of Alpha Flight have been in more than one. (None, though, have been about Alpha... even the one Phil posted is more about the X-Men.)


Nevermind.

I take it you read the top left-handish corner? 'coz if we told you any more, it'd be spoilery. :)

~ Le Messor
"The truth can be cruel, but it can be loved, and it makes free those who have loved it."
~ George Santayana

[Le Messor]

Yes and yes. The WHAT IF was fun, as they usually are, but I don't recall the Flashback being all that good?

I wasn't a fan of the Flashback, but at least it was about Alpha Flight!
The What If...? had Alpha Flight completing all the X-Men's adventures, not their own, and was more told than shown.

~ Le Messor

[Crackity Jones]

Good answer. Hey, this is your thread, and I'm sorry - this table is reserved!

That's right.
But, seriously, I don't care what people post here. As long as they're not a-holes to me, I'm fine.




I take it you read the top left-handish corner? 'coz if we told you any more, it'd be spoilery. :)

Yeah, I had first viewed it on my phone on another board. I didn't notice the smaller print up top. Then I posted it, and STILL didn't see the smaller print up top until AFTER I posted it.
Someone posted it in an X-Factor thread somewhere else, and I thought I was dreaming for a minute: I mean, a mix of X-Factor and Alpha Flight? I don't see it ever happening, but I GOT SUPER EXCITED FOR A SECOND because I thought Marvel really loved me and was going to make allllll my comic dreams come true.:(

[Tawmis]

That's right.
But, seriously, I don't care what people post here. As long as they're not a-holes to me, I'm fine.


While I have no powers here on this forum, if anyone was ever an a-hole to you, they'd somehow answer to me! :)

[Crackity Jones]

While I have no powers here on this forum, if anyone was ever an a-hole to you, they'd somehow answer to me! :)

awwww. You're like a 5th older brother to me. Except on the internet. That's kind of awesome. <3

[Garry/Al-Fan]

You guys can talk about whatever you'd like. As long as we can talk Alpha Flight occasionally.

And, Chris: One of my other fave characters, Nightcrawler, is back to dating his sister again. And I still think it's gross. Even if they are not blood-related.
I might be too uptight at times for comics? I don't know.

Naw...you're not the only one who is really passionate about Alpha Flight...and the terrible things that have been done to them.

Going off on tangents happens from time to time, but usually somebody brings things back to the original theme.

Or do we have to mention that Heather's name was spelled 2 ways in the same issue? AF# 29: "McNeil" (p. 6) and "MacNeil" (p. 21) "MacNeil" happens a lot throughout the Mantlo era.

[Tawmis]

So let's see your ranking of Alpha Flight members (for as far as you have gotten) - as well as anyone else who wants to rank top to bottom.

Guardian (Mac)
Vindicator (Heather)
Northstar
Aurora
Sasquatch
Snowbird
Shaman
Marrina
Puck
Talisman (Elizabeth)
Madison Jefferies
Box (Bochs)
Diamond Lil
Manikin
Purple Girl
Goblyn

[Crackity Jones]

So let's see your ranking of Alpha Flight members (for as far as you have gotten) - as well as anyone else who wants to rank top to bottom.

Guardian (Mac)
Vindicator (Heather)
Northstar
Aurora
Sasquatch
Snowbird
Shaman
Marrina
Puck
Talisman (Elizabeth)
Madison Jefferies
Box (Bochs)
Diamond Lil
Manikin
Purple Girl
Goblyn

Ranking our faves?

1. Guardian (Mac4evah)
2. Northstar
3. Aurora
4. Puck (when not moping about Heather)
5. Shaman
6. Talisman
7. Bochs
8. Jefferies
9. Sasquatch
10. Manikin
11. Purple Girl
12. Heather (MAKES ME SO SAD THAT SHE RANKS HERE BECAUSE SHE NOW SUCKS).

[Crackity Jones]

Naw...you're not the only one who is really passionate about Alpha Flight...and the terrible things that have been done to them.

Going off on tangents happens from time to time, but usually somebody brings things back to the original theme.

Or do we have to mention that Heather's name was spelled 2 ways in the same issue? AF# 29: "McNeil" (p. 6) and "MacNeil" (p. 21) "MacNeil" happens a lot throughout the Mantlo era.

I'm still adjusting to the fact that all of the original members are gone (as of #51), Northstar is living with elves (cause he's now a half elf???), Aurora was abandoned in the dark because: HEATHER, Heather is dancing around claiming her AF is better than Mac's, Purple Girl and Manikin are an item, Sasquatch has forgotten that even though he's physically a woman when in human form, he's still Walter in mind and spirit, and suddenly he is flirting with Gary Cody.
Mac is still dead.
Heather is still a freaking disappointment and an idiot.

[Chris]

That's right.
But, seriously, I don't care what people post here. As long as they're not a-holes to me, I'm fine.

Everyone is nice here which is why I don't post on sites like Bleedingcool (http://www.bleedingcool.com)


While I have no powers here on this forum, if anyone was ever an a-hole to you, they'd somehow answer to me! :)

And Phil and Rob will ban their IP address faster than Northstar can blink.

[Crackity Jones]

I'm still adjusting to the fact that all of the original members are gone (as of #51), Northstar is living with elves (cause he's now a half elf???), Aurora was abandoned in the dark because: HEATHER, Heather is dancing around claiming her AF is better than Mac's, Purple Girl and Manikin are an item, Sasquatch has forgotten that even though he's physically a woman when in human form, he's still Walter in mind and spirit, and suddenly he is flirting with Gary Cody.
Mac is still dead.
Heather is still a freaking disappointment and an idiot.

Jeez, after typing all of that out, I have to wonder why again I am still reading this. :(

[Crackity Jones]

Everyone is nice here which is why I don't post on sites like Bleedingcool (http://www.bleedingcool.com)
Not even going to check out that link. No more forums for me. Two is plenty. :D




And Phil and Rob will ban their IP address faster than Northstar can blink.

Because Alpha Flight People are AWESOME.

[Flightpath07]

While I have no powers here on this forum

So, we aren't counting "funny" as a super-power then? Okay, scratch that one off my list.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I can only guess that the reason these things were allowed to happen is because the editor(s)/publisher green-lighted/approved them to happen.
In the 80's I couldn't take it anymore (#55), quit (caring) with #56, only occassionally picking it up (#s 64, 66, 67). Changing writers wasn't enough to keep me, at the time, although I thought the DreamQueen's origin was good.

Since then, I've filled in volume 1, with one exception (#105, I think it is); but I have never gotten over the poor execution/crappy stories that were published during the Mantlo era.

The early Mantlo era tried to pass off Alpha Flight as a family when just about everybody wasn't acting very family-oriented. That's one of the things that really irked me.

[Crackity Jones]

I can only guess that the reason these things were allowed to happen is because the editor(s)/publisher green-lighted/approved them to happen.
In the 80's I couldn't take it anymore (#55), quit (caring) with #56, only occassionally picking it up (#s 64, 66, 67). Changing writers wasn't enough to keep me, at the time, although I thought the DreamQueen's origin was good.

Since then, I've filled in volume 1, with one exception (#105, I think it is); but I have never gotten over the poor execution/crappy stories that were published during the Mantlo era.

The early Mantlo era tried to pass off Alpha Flight as a family when just about everybody wasn't acting very family-oriented. That's one of the things that really irked me.

Didn't editor guy, at the end of Byrne's run, state that he absolutely LOVED Heather, that she was his favorite??
That explains all the crappy Heather push that happened.

[Tawmis]

Ranking our faves?

1. Guardian (Mac4evah)
2. Northstar
3. Aurora
4. Puck (when not moping about Heather)
5. Shaman
6. Talisman
7. Bochs
8. Jefferies
9. Sasquatch
10. Manikin
11. Purple Girl
12. Heather (MAKES ME SO SAD THAT SHE RANKS HERE BECAUSE SHE NOW SUCKS).

Wow. My heart breaks.
You don't even rank Snowbird???



I'm still adjusting to the fact that all of the original members are gone (as of #51), Northstar is living with elves (cause he's now a half elf???), Aurora was abandoned in the dark because: HEATHER, Heather is dancing around claiming her AF is better than Mac's, Purple Girl and Manikin are an item, Sasquatch has forgotten that even though he's physically a woman when in human form, he's still Walter in mind and spirit, and suddenly he is flirting with Gary Cody. Mac is still dead. Heather is still a freaking disappointment and an idiot.

Well, I said earlier, Northstar and Aurora's origin gets "fixed"... Aurora where she is, ends up "fixed" also, if I recall, due to a villain later... Heather... she tries to get fixed, but too much damage is done to her, to ever like her in costume, in the original Alpha, and even in the following volumes... in Amazing X-Men, at least, she seems reset... as for Purple Girl and Manikin... I care for neither of these characters, so they could fall off the edge of the world, and the Sasquatch woman thing, gets fixed... eventually, but not nearly soon enough. And Mac, well, that gets fixed too. See what you have to look forward to? Other than Heather, you're in good hands.


Jeez, after typing all of that out, I have to wonder why again I am still reading this. :sad:

Because you care and want to hope that they all get fixed...


So, we aren't counting "funny" as a super-power then? Okay, scratch that one off my list.

I like to think I am funny, my wife would argue otherwise.



I can only guess that the reason these things were allowed to happen is because the editor(s)/publisher green-lighted/approved them to happen.


Or the editors didn't care about Alpha Flight, in general.



In the 80's I couldn't take it anymore (#55), quit (caring) with #56, only occassionally picking it up (#s 64, 66, 67). Changing writers wasn't enough to keep me, at the time, although I thought the DreamQueen's origin was good.


I stuck through it, the entire original run, because of how much I liked the team. I kept hoping they'd get fixed.



Since then, I've filled in volume 1, with one exception (#105, I think it is); but I have never gotten over the poor execution/crappy stories that were published during the Mantlo era.


#106? The Coming Out Issue, perhaps?



The early Mantlo era tried to pass off Alpha Flight as a family when just about everybody wasn't acting very family-oriented. That's one of the things that really irked me.

It was like a family! What are you talking about? A Charles Manson killing one another type family, but a family nonetheless... :roll:

[Le Messor]

Northstar is living with elves

This is what I was alluding to when I told you he'd stop picking on Heather. Technically, he does.


You don't even rank Snowbird???

A slip-up, perhaps?


Well, I said earlier, Northstar and Aurora's origin gets "fixed"... Aurora where she is, ends up "fixed" also, if I recall, due to a villain later... Heather... she tries to get fixed, but too much damage is done to her,

Yeah, most of it does get better... less worse, anyway.

~ Le Messor
"Most of our lives are about proving something, either to ourselves or to someone else."

[Crackity Jones]

Ranking our faves?

1. Guardian (Mac4evah)
2. Northstar
3. Aurora
4. Puck (when not moping about Heather)
5. Snowbird
6. Shaman
7. Talisman
8. Bochs
9. Jefferies
10. Sasquatch
11. Manikin
12. Purple Girl
13. Heather (MAKES ME SO SAD THAT SHE RANKS HERE BECAUSE SHE NOW SUCKS).

Here, Tawmis, I fixed it for you. I thought I had already put Snowbird on it.

[Crackity Jones]

Well, I said earlier, Northstar and Aurora's origin gets "fixed"... Aurora where she is, ends up "fixed" also, if I recall, due to a villain later... Heather... she tries to get fixed, but too much damage is done to her, to ever like her in costume, in the original Alpha, and even in the following volumes... in Amazing X-Men, at least, she seems reset... as for Purple Girl and Manikin... I care for neither of these characters, so they could fall off the edge of the world, and the Sasquatch woman thing, gets fixed... eventually, but not nearly soon enough. And Mac, well, that gets fixed too. See what you have to look forward to? Other than Heather, you're in good hands.

Sorry, I just keep getting stuck on b!tching about it. It's mindblowing.




Because you care and want to hope that they all get fixed...
Yes, that I do.

[Crackity Jones]

This is what I was alluding to when I told you he'd stop picking on Heather. Technically, he does.

I see.
I am considering skipping issues #52 up to when Northstar returns. And jumping back on when he returns. I don't know. I don't want to read about Not Alpha.

[Phil]

I think #51 onwards is where it starts to get better, as the Mantlo run winds it's way down.
I'm a big fan of the Jim Lee art and the Dream Queen storyline.

#52-53 may make you see Mac in a different light though, so maybe you won't enjoy them as much.

[Le Messor]

I am considering skipping issues #52 up to when Northstar returns. And jumping back on when he returns. I don't know. I don't want to read about Not Alpha.

And that's why I have such a problem with most of the later volumes. Part of it, anyway - it's Not Alpha.

However, there are some good stories between #52 and #82. I wouldn't recommend skipping all of it.

[Crackity Jones]

I think #51 onwards is where it starts to get better, as the Mantlo run winds it's way down.
I'm a big fan of the Jim Lee art and the Dream Queen storyline.

#52-53 may make you see Mac in a different light though, so maybe you won't enjoy them as much.

oooh, no. :( I was actually going to read #52 because that's the one titled "FLASHBACK!", right?
I do like the Jim Lee art.


And that's why I have such a problem with most of the later volumes. Part of it, anyway - it's Not Alpha.

However, there are some good stories between #52 and #82. I wouldn't recommend skipping all of it.

Ugh. How did you all stick it through Not Alpha??
The original characters are the ONLY reason I am still reading this series.
And as of now, there aren't any originals on the team.

[Le Messor]

oooh, no. :( I was actually going to read #52 because that's the one titled "FLASHBACK!", right?
I do like the Jim Lee art.

It's Lee's first work for Marvel.
All the stuff about Mac will get better, too.


Ugh. How did you all stick it through Not Alpha??

In my case, at first because we kept getting promises from the creative team that 'it'll turn around with issue #, we promise!'; 'it'll be more of what you love after issue #, we swear!', but ultimately because I knew it was limited.

V2: I was actually lining up at the store to dump it when they told me it was getting cancelled very soon. So, I thought why not buy two or so more issues?
V3: I enjoyed it (though it was baaad) so that wasn't a problem. (Also, the promises above.)
v4 and Omega Flight? I knew from the beginning they'd only end up being limited. (All were originally slated to be ongoing series; Omega and v4 were both dropped back to limited / minis before issue 1 hit the stands.) Also, I liked Omega Flight, Non Alpha or not.
Even though v4 was the original characters, I wouldn't have stuck with it the way it was written. Your mileage may vary.

Other people? Because they enjoyed them:
See Phil's comments on another thread that v2 is what brought him here.
A lot of peeps really liked v4 - as mentioned, it was the originals. Personally, I just didn't like that it was about the angriest thing I've ever read, with them screaming in my face all the time about 'how dare you not be a minority!?! Evil!' and the v2-like 'Mind control! Mind control! Oooh!' storyline.

I don't think anybody really loved v3, but it was only 12 issues in the end.

~ Le Messor
"Equality of opportunity means equal opportunity to be unequal."
~ Iain MacLeod

[Tawmis]

Here, Tawmis, I fixed it for you. I thought I had already put Snowbird on it.

and



A slip-up, perhaps?


Indeed it was! She put Snowbird back in there and I was able to piece my heart back together!



Sorry, I just keep getting stuck on b!tching about it. It's mindblowing.


As expected. If you didn't complain, I'd be more worried.



I am considering skipping issues #52 up to when Northstar returns. And jumping back on when he returns. I don't know. I don't want to read about Not Alpha.

Don't because...



I think #51 onwards is where it starts to get better, as the Mantlo run winds it's way down.
I'm a big fan of the Jim Lee art and the Dream Queen storyline.


... this! ^^^



Ugh. How did you all stick it through Not Alpha??
The original characters are the ONLY reason I am still reading this series.
And as of now, there aren't any originals on the team.

I believe the intention was to replace Alpha Flight entirely. Bill does good if he has a clean slate. This is why I think he initially did so well with ROM and MICRONAUTS which were both fun stories to read. (Not very much character development in either one, but they were still that comic you read for just some brainless fun).



V2: I was actually lining up at the store to dump it when they told me it was getting cancelled very soon. So, I thought why not buy two or so more issues?


When V2 came out, I recall enjoying the series. I recently tried to re-read it, and couldn't get past the original artists' work. Especially how he drew uh... "Mac" (to spare any potential spoilers).

I enjoyed Radius (and his origin), as well as his half-brother (though the origin they tried to peg for him, to me, was too much of a stretch and I don't think ever got confirmed). I strongly dislike Man-Bot or whatever his name was. But for the worse character in Alpha Flight history, second place goes to Murmur. First place goes to - if you can count him, since it wasn't in an ALPHA FLIGHT series, goes to Earth Mover. (Worse character even in ALPHA FLIGHT history, you probably know who I'd say it was...)



V3: I enjoyed it (though it was baaad) so that wasn't a problem. (Also, the promises above.)


This was the "comedy" one, right? Scott was writing?



v4 and Omega Flight? I knew from the beginning they'd only end up being limited. (All were originally slated to be ongoing series; Omega and v4 were both dropped back to limited / minis before issue 1 hit the stands.) Also, I liked Omega Flight, Non Alpha or not.
Even though v4 was the original characters, I wouldn't have stuck with it the way it was written. Your mileage may vary.
Other people? Because they enjoyed them:
See Phil's comments on another thread that v2 is what brought him here.
A lot of peeps really liked v4 - as mentioned, it was the originals. Personally, I just didn't like that it was about the angriest thing I've ever read, with them screaming in my face all the time about 'how dare you not be a minority!?! Evil!' and the v2-like 'Mind control! Mind control! Oooh!' storyline.


I enjoyed Volume 4, because it "reset" Alpha Flight. Were they a little more angry? Sure, but consider what they have been through, wouldn't you be pissed too? :)

I liked them having an edge. I feel like that's something Alpha Flight needed. For too long, they have been treated like a joke. I think, in part, because of how Volume 1 came about after Byrne's departure. It was so horribly handled - and not just from Bill. I think in the Marvel offices, new people were tossed onto Alpha Flight, to try and do something with it, simply because it was tied to the X-Men and the X-Men were popular back then, so they wanted to see if someone could make something happen. But they didn't want to put big names on there, because they were reserved to Marvel's core, big titles (FF, Hulk, Avengers, X-Men, etc). As a result, with so many writers and artists who walked through the original volume of Alpha Flight, it became almost unbearable, confusing, and a nightmare. I don't think anyone, post Byrne, ever cared about their assignment on Alpha Flight, and basically did what they had to, to keep their jobs.

So "rebooting"/resetting Alpha Flight with some edge, I think would have been what it needed. For the market readers to say, "Oh, hey, here's this team that's not going to put up with any Bull$#!+!"

Sadly, we did not get to see that develop into a series, right when we had a great artist on it, and a writer who expressed interest in making something of Alpha Flight...

[Crackity Jones]

My friend just received the first 10 issues of Byrne's run, so I'm going to re-read it while she's reading it for the first time. :D
I could probably use to do it anyway since so much character development and happenings are awesomely crammed into those first 10 issues.

[Phil]

I liked Volume 2, 3 and 4.
They weren't Byrne's Alpha Flight but then again nothing else was/will be.
Hell, even Byrne ran out of ideas and enthusiasm for the team. Who's to say that if he stayed on the book his run wouldn't have been even worse than Mantlo's?

No one is ever going to be able to recreate those first 28 issues and that's what made them so unique and enjoyable.
I don't think writers should be trying to imitate that run; they've got to try and do something similarly unique - sometimes it hits, others it misses; them's the breaks.

And I like Earthmover.

[Le Messor]

Indeed it was! She put Snowbird back in there and I was able to piece my heart back together!

Then just take it; take another little piece of my heart!


Especially how he drew uh... "Mac" (to spare any potential spoilers).

iirc, that was spoilered before #1 hit the stands.
I'd already learned to hate cartoony art long before then, especially when teamed up with dark, murky colouring.

Wait... Did Alan Davis draw a single issue? Or was it Neary? (Which would contradict something I said on another thread.)


(Worse character even in ALPHA FLIGHT history, you probably know who I'd say it was...)

Llan.


(V3) This was the "comedy" one, right? Scott was writing?

Indeed.


I enjoyed Volume 4, because it "reset" Alpha Flight. Were they a little more angry? Sure, but consider what they have been through, wouldn't you be pissed too?

Doesn't make me enjoy the book.
I don't want to read about a bunch of angry characters being angry. I don't like anybody when they're angry.


But they didn't want to put big names on there, because they were reserved to Marvel's core, big titles (FF, Hulk, Avengers, X-Men, etc).

Which is odd, because I often look at those big titles and wonder how this deservedly obscure person got the book!


I don't think anyone, post Byrne, ever cared about their assignment on Alpha Flight,

I'm not sure he did, either.


For the market readers to say, "Oh, hey, here's this team that's not going to put up with any Bull$#!+!"

In other words, a pretty generic team.


I liked Volume 2, 3 and 4.

Well, the world's a twisted place.


Hell, even Byrne ran out of ideas and enthusiasm for the team. Who's to say that if he stayed on the book his run wouldn't have been even worse than Mantlo's?

Always a possibility. I have noticed he has a short attention span; maybe it's good he only stays a few issues on any given title?


No one is ever going to be able to recreate those first 28 issues

I dunno, Alpha Flight Classics did a pretty good job...


And I like Earthmover.

First place goes to - if you can count him, since it wasn't in an ALPHA FLIGHT series, goes to Earth Mover.

And I know who Earthmover is!

~ Le Messor
"Life is an endurance test, so why be ashamed of your age?"
~ P.K. Shaw

[Crackity Jones]

I liked Volume 2, 3 and 4.
They weren't Byrne's Alpha Flight but then again nothing else was/will be.
Hell, even Byrne ran out of ideas and enthusiasm for the team. Who's to say that if he stayed on the book his run wouldn't have been even worse than Mantlo's?

No one is ever going to be able to recreate those first 28 issues and that's what made them so unique and enjoyable.
I don't think writers should be trying to imitate that run; they've got to try and do something similarly unique - sometimes it hits, others it misses; them's the breaks.

And I like Earthmover.

Phil-
You are so...positive.
How many times have you made lemonade now? :P

Seriously, though, you are really positive. It kind of balances the thread out, what, with my instant traumatic/dramatic/freak-out posts I make everytime I read another issue now.
Thank you. :D

[Mekko Hotvle]

I am still stuck in the Vol #1 phase of AF. Only because been having a hard time finding the later AF Vols. After getting past Byrne's run, I kinda skipped around reading issues. Some have through me for a loop i.e. Walter as a women, the worst villain being Hedlock. But I have enjoyed reading AF so far. But the funniest thing to me during this whole time of being romanced by Canada's heroes is when the scrambled eggs went crazy! I sent that out to other Native Americans and warned them that could happen with our commodity powder eggs. (Native Humor).

[Phil]

Wait... Did Alan Davis draw a single issue? Or was it Neary? (Which would contradict something I said on another thread.)
Nope, he's never drawn an issue.

The closest he's come was drawing Marrina in Dark Reign: The List - X-Men (And that was just one panel of classic Marrina and lots of mutated Leviathan.), and Jeffries in X-Men:Schism #4.

[Chris]

I'm still adjusting to the fact that all of the original members are gone (as of #51), Northstar is living with elves (cause he's now a half elf???), Aurora was abandoned in the dark because: HEATHER, Heather is dancing around claiming her AF is better than Mac's, Purple Girl and Manikin are an item, Sasquatch has forgotten that even though he's physically a woman when in human form, he's still Walter in mind and spirit, and suddenly he is flirting with Gary Cody.

I looked at the scene again with Sasquatch and Gary Cody in issue 51. I don't think Walter was flirting with Cody. I think Walter was just being a smart alec (and I don't mean Alec Thorne ;)


oooh, no. :( I was actually going to read #52 because that's the one titled "FLASHBACK!", right?
I do like the Jim Lee art.

Actually June Brigman drew issue #52. Jim Lee already needed a fill in artist after drawing one issue. The guy draws so good I always forgive his lateness.
You may want to read AF Annual #2 next since it takes place between issues #51 and #52. June also drew Annual #2. But the story features a lot of Heather so you may not want to read it then. But it does contain a cool fight with Box and a T-Rex. Dinosaurs sure get abused alot in comic books. Where is PETA when you need them?


Ugh. How did you all stick it through Not Alpha??
The original characters are the ONLY reason I am still reading this series.
And as of now, there aren't any originals on the team.

Well I looked at it as I still have 3 Byrne characters on the team. Heather wearing the Vindicator suit. Madison Jeffries wearing the Box armor. And Sasquatch wearing Snowbird's body. And Jim Lee's art helped alot. I think Editor in Chief Jim Shooter had some rule that every issue is someone's first issue. Mantlo would have Jim Lee draw 4 years of Alpha Flight history in flashback scenes in almost every issue. There was no Wikipedia back then to read up on every character's origin and current status.

[Chris]

But the funniest thing to me during this whole time of being romanced by Canada's heroes is when the scrambled eggs went crazy! I sent that out to other Native Americans and warned them that could happen with our commodity powder eggs. (Native Humor).

The next time I want a mean omelette I shall have the Great Beasts cook me one. Specially prepared by Ranaq the Great "Chef".

[Le Messor]

I am still stuck in the Vol #1 phase of AF. Only because been having a hard time finding the later AF Vols. After getting past Byrne's run, I kinda skipped around reading issues...

Sounds like you've been getting the best of the best, though.


the funniest thing to me during this whole time of being romanced by Canada's heroes is when the scrambled eggs went crazy! I sent that out to other Native Americans and warned them that could happen with our commodity powder eggs.

Lol! That is great! :D


Nope, he's never drawn an issue. The closest he's come was drawing Marrina in Dark Reign: The List - X-Men (And that was just one panel of classic Marrina and lots of mutated Leviathan.), and Jeffries in X-Men:Schism #4.

I've just checked; I was thinking of v2 #6, which was a Hitch / Neary joint.
I associate Davis and Neary because Neary inked him on one of his series.


Phil-You are so...positive.
Thank you. :D

Seconded!

~ Le Messor
"Most of the time we don't communicate; we just take turns talking."

[Flightpath07]

I liked Volume 2, 3 and 4.
They weren't Byrne's Alpha Flight but then again nothing else was/will be.
Hell, even Byrne ran out of ideas and enthusiasm for the team. Who's to say that if he stayed on the book his run wouldn't have been even worse than Mantlo's?

No one is ever going to be able to recreate those first 28 issues and that's what made them so unique and enjoyable.
I don't think writers should be trying to imitate that run; they've got to try and do something similarly unique - sometimes it hits, others it misses; them's the breaks.

And I like Earthmover.

That's nicely put, Phil; all of it (you're very verbose, my friend!). All of the various Alpha series(es?) have something good about them, most of them quite a few things. And some bad also, quite a few bad things actually. But, for each of us, those bad and good things will be different for each reader.

Volume 3, even though it was a 'joke' and handled flippantly, and a mess at times, was what drew me to Alpha, or at least back to Alpha. I had quit reading in the late 50's (issues, not my age or the year), and got rid of ALL my comics. When i heard that Alpha was coming back for a Volume 3, i didn't even know that Volume 1 had ended! While i waited for Volume 3 to come out, i hit eBay (ouch!) and collected all of Volume 1 and 2. Long story short, here i am, you can't get rid of me now! (Well, you could block my IP...but surely SOMEBODY would miss me!)

And, Phil, you are the glue that stirs the drink, sir!

[Crackity Jones]

I looked at the scene again with Sasquatch and Gary Cody in issue 51. I don't think Walter was flirting with Cody. I think Walter was just being a smart alec (and I don't mean Alec Thorne ;)

Oh! Ha, you are probably correct. I mean, I took it as a joke, just not for the same reasons. :D




Actually June Brigman drew issue #52. Jim Lee already needed a fill in artist after drawing one issue. The guy draws so good I always forgive his lateness.
You may want to read AF Annual #2 next since it takes place between issues #51 and #52. June also drew Annual #2. But the story features a lot of Heather so you may not want to read it then. But it does contain a cool fight with Box and a T-Rex. Dinosaurs sure get abused alot in comic books. Where is PETA when you need them?

I haven't even read Annual #1 yet because I forgot about it. Oops! I can read both of those here soon, then, before I read #52.




Well I looked at it as I still have 3 Byrne characters on the team. Heather wearing the Vindicator suit. Madison Jeffries wearing the Box armor. And Sasquatch wearing Snowbird's body. And Jim Lee's art helped alot. I think Editor in Chief Jim Shooter had some rule that every issue is someone's first issue. Mantlo would have Jim Lee draw 4 years of Alpha Flight history in flashback scenes in almost every issue. There was no Wikipedia back then to read up on every character's origin and current status.

Another positive thinker! <3
Because I don't count those three as original Alpha members (I didn't think of Madison Jeffries) because Heather is different and wasn't really a member until Mantlo's run (and even if so, I still don't her count because she is awful), and Sasquatch I don't count, I guess, because he isn't in his original orange suit or human form.

[Tawmis]

My friend just received the first 10 issues of Byrne's run, so I'm going to re-read it while she's reading it for the first time. :D
I could probably use to do it anyway since so much character development and happenings are awesomely crammed into those first 10 issues.

So you can warn her about what follows after issue #28...



I liked Volume 2, 3 and 4.


Like I said, I originally liked Volume 2. But the art, when I tried to re-read it, was... bad. And Murmur and Manbot? Finally an Alpha Flight character created that I hate more than Manikin...



No one is ever going to be able to recreate those first 28 issues and that's what made them so unique and enjoyable.
I don't think writers should be trying to imitate that run; they've got to try and do something similarly unique - sometimes it hits, others it misses; them's the breaks.
And I like Earthmover.

I don't think someone should try to recreate it - but others should follow the established character personalities. This is what I think did not happen.

And how can you possibly like Earthmover. Please sell me on how he's a good character. (Seriously! I'd like to hear it!) But I can't say too much, I actually liked Wyre, and I know a lot of people disliked him.



Then just take it; take another little piece of my heart!


So help me if that song gets stuck in my head...



iirc, that was spoilered before #1 hit the stands.


I meant for Crackity. :)



Llan.


By far. The worse. You are correct. But I am surprised you were able to guess. I am usually so subtle about my hatred of the character...


I am still stuck in the Vol #1 phase of AF. Only because been having a hard time finding the later AF Vols. After getting past Byrne's run, I kinda skipped around reading issues. Some have through me for a loop i.e. Walter as a women, the worst villain being Hedlock. But I have enjoyed reading AF so far. But the funniest thing to me during this whole time of being romanced by Canada's heroes is when the scrambled eggs went crazy! I sent that out to other Native Americans and warned them that could happen with our commodity powder eggs. (Native Humor).

Worse villain being Headlok? You must have skipped the Llan the Sorcerer story, my friend. LOL

[Phil]

But the art, when I tried to re-read it, was... bad.
The Rouleau stuff was quite stylistic and I can see why people didn't like it.
I personally wouldn't use the term bad though.


And Murmur and Manbot? Finally an Alpha Flight character created that I hate more than Manikin...
Yeah, Murmur was pretty redundant but was an important part of the Legacy sub plot they were building and never got to.
Manbot didn't have a chance to show any point or potential, again for the same reason.


I don't think someone should try to recreate it - but others should follow the established character personalities. This is what I think did not happen.
These are fictional characters though; you can only follow established personalities for so long without repeating them. Hence re-creation.


And how can you possibly like Earthmover. Please sell me on how he's a good character. (Seriously! I'd like to hear it!)
Earthmover is essentially Shaman & Talisman; a normal every day citizen pulled into a legacy of shaman magic.
To write one off is to write the other two off.
The problem with him is essentially the same as Murmur; he was a redundant character because Shaman & Talisman existed and fulfilled the role, and that he literally got 2 issues of guest appearances before being reduced to silent cameos.


But I can't say too much, I actually liked Wyre, and I know a lot of people disliked him.
He's my fourth favourite Alphan after Sasquatch, Puck and Wild Child.


Worse villain being Headlok? You must have skipped the Llan the Sorcerer story, my friend. LOL
I saw no problem in Llan as a character whatsoever.
Just the resolution of the arc.

[Crackity Jones]

These are fictional characters though; you can only follow established personalities for so long without repeating them. Hence re-creation.

IMO, it's okay to ADD to personalities of characters, but not change them.
Which is what I feel has happened a LOT in what I've read of Mantlo's run so far.
You start changing pre-loved and established characters, you kill off a good portion of your loyal audience, imo.

[Phil]

IMO, it's okay to ADD to personalities of characters, but not change them.
Which is what I feel has happened a LOT in what I've read of Mantlo's run so far.
You start changing pre-loved and established characters, you kill off a good portion of your loyal audience, imo.
I definitely agree to an extent but there's a very blurred line between adding and changing, and a distinct one between changing and contrasting.
My personality has changed from 5 years ago; I've grown/evolved/natured/nurtured/endured.
Change is fine as long as there's a justifiable, logical reason.

[Crackity Jones]

I definitely agree to an extent but there's a very blurred line between adding and changing, and a distinct one between changing and contrasting.
My personality has changed from 5 years ago; I've grown/evolved/natured/nurtured/endured.
Change is fine as long as there's a justifiable, logical reason.

What I meant by "add to characters' personalities" is that, obviously characters are going to go through written experiences which will add to what they are and (blurred line of "add" and "change" here) that may somewhat change how they are, but to make them completely different than how they started and were initially established? No.
Heather was a strong woman BEFORE entering Mantlo's run. He didn't have to put her into a suit and make her Mega B!tch leader to establish that she was a strong leader. Because that didn't make her strong. It just made her a b!tch, imo.
She is completely different than when Byrne wrote her. Yes, her situation changed, he could have added that to her life experiences, but not make her a completely different character like he did.

Also: I've changed as well over the past 5 years. But I'm not a fictional character. People aren't reading my life with the expectations of knowing who I am. ;)

[Phil]

What I meant by "add to characters' personalities" is that, obviously characters are going to go through written experiences which will add to what they are and (blurred line of "add" and "change" here) that may somewhat change how they are, but to make them completely different than how they started and were initially established? No.
Then in that case Mantlo didn't change the characters personalities, he completely contradicted what was already established, with no good reason.
Which is poor writing.
Which I totally agree with you on.


People aren't reading my life with the expectations of knowing who I am.
Does that then raise the question that we have expectations of these characters?
We don't own them, we didn't create them, we have no claim to them...

(Being devil's advocate here, I'm 90% with you on Mantlo's issues)

[Crackity Jones]

Then in that case Mantlo didn't change the characters personalities, he completely contradicted what was already established, with no good reason.
Which is poor writing.
Which I totally agree with you on.

Well, at least we agree that it just sucked. And he ruined my Heather.



Does that then raise the question that we have expectations of these characters?
We don't own them, we didn't create them, we have no claim to them...

(Being devil's advocate here, I'm 90% with you on Mantlo's issues)

Yes, we expect a certain amount of fundamental consistencies in our fictional characters, I think. At least I do.
It's what makes them relatable.

Whether or not I have a right to expect that, it's what I do. :D

[Garry/Al-Fan]

...

Or the editors didn't care about Alpha Flight, in general.



I stuck through it, the entire original run, because of how much I liked the team. I kept hoping they'd get fixed.


(After #29 through #56, so much bad stuff had happened that I didn't believe it could be fixed...a lot of it will be considered canon, no matter how much retro-revising. G/A-F)

#106? The Coming Out Issue, perhaps?

(The Bachelor party/bar-hopping issue is the one I don't have, yet. G/A-F)



It was like a family! What are you talking about? A Charles Manson killing one another type family, but a family nonetheless... :roll:

One decision keeps popping up for me about AF# 44: if your leader (Heather) or your team-mates (Judd and Jeffries) KNOW that your powers are going to get negated if you touch your sibling, why on earth would you split the team up and have Northstar and Aurora in the same group, in a cave, going after a foe who beat them handily the first time?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I think #51 onwards is where it starts to get better, as the Mantlo run winds it's way down.
I'm a big fan of the Jim Lee art and the Dream Queen storyline.

#52-53 may make you see Mac in a different light though, so maybe you won't enjoy them as much.

CJ, I agree with Phil; the later Mantlo run is better than the earlier part. Bare in mind this is faint praise, though; it's Alpha-lite.

[Crackity Jones]

One decision keeps popping up for me about AF# 44: if your leader (Heather) or your team-mates (Judd and Jeffries) KNOW that your powers are going to get negated if you touch your sibling, why on earth would you split the team up and have Northstar and Aurora in the same group, in a cave, going after a foe who beat them handily the first time?

Because you have hopes of killing off the last of your team so that you can make an Alpha Flight team ALL YOUR OWN that consists of a Mind Raper, a guy who lusts after said under-aged Mind Raper (but he splits into three different guys, so COOL and YAY!), a guy who you suddenly have become attracted to, and a Not Sasquatch/Snowbird/whatever. And all of these thoughts hit you in a splash page at the end of the book as you ponder, in depth, how your new, ALL-YOUR-OWN AF team is better than your deceased husband's and how you are better than your deceased husband, and your justifications for SUCKING. BADLY.

[Crackity Jones]

<---Bitter. Will always be bitter over how Heather was changed. ALWAYS.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

<---Bitter. Will always be bitter over how Heather was changed. ALWAYS.

I can relate, CJ.

Different people have different interpretations of ALPHA FLIGHT, but I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment of why the illogical grouping.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

Don't read vol. 4 with the expectation that Heather gets treated better. She doesn't. [poor, defenseless cousins...]

[TSOG]

Like I said, I originally liked Volume 2. But the art, when I tried to re-read it, was... bad. And Murmur and Manbot? Finally an Alpha Flight character created that I hate more than Manikin...

Funny, I felt the same way. As I was buying it, I was enjoying it a great deal. Maybe it was just the "buzz" of finally having some of these characters available again.

But when I read it again a couple of years later I was trying to remember what I liked. The art was often brutal and the new characters were completely unappealing to me. The book, by and large, is a giant mess.

[Le Messor]

And how can you possibly like Earthmover.

He, my friend, had potential. Granted, the first time he flew out in the sunlight, he got covered in concrete and ended up stuck on the edge of a building, but still, at least he didn't get wet.


So help me if that song gets stuck in my head...

What's sad is, it's a cover version that's stuck in mine, not the Janis original. :(


Worse villain being Headlok?

Who isn't even an Alpha villain. He just appeared in that one issue.


Also: I've changed as well over the past 5 years. But I'm not a fictional character. People aren't reading my life with the expectations of knowing who I am. ;)

1. I agree with you on holding fictional characters to different, and higher, standards to real people.
2. Actually, we are. See... this thread. ;)


he completely contradicted what was already established, with no good reason.

Also, completely suddenly, out of the blue. No build up or organic flow-through. It's like a giant ant farm.


Does that then raise the question that we have expectations of these characters?
We don't own them, we didn't create them, we have no claim to them...

Ah, yes, the ages old question; who really owns the characters? The creators or the fans?
Normally asked about Star Wars characters after the prequels.

It's unambiguously true we didn't create them (then again, neither did Bill Mantlo - at least, he didn't create the Alphans who got most of us reading the series) ; legally, we don't own them - though some people (in the Star Wars example) argue that we do, more than the people who did create them and more than those who legally owning them.
I leave all that to the philosophers.

What I will say is two things:
1... The creators / owners are trying to sell us these characters. If they want us to keep buying, they need to keep either meeting our expectations, or breaking them in a good way.
B) We, the fans, have invested a lot of money, time, and emotion in these characters. How many covers of each appearance of AF does Rob have, for example? If that doesn't give us some claim over them, what does? No, that wouldn't hold up in a court of law; but this is a court of public opinion.


<Heather in v4>

Sniff... so true.

~ Le Messor
"They say any lawyer who represents himself has a fool! for a client. As God is my witness, I am that fool!"
~ Gomez

[Crackity Jones]

Le Messor, you're giving me goosebumps.

[Crackity Jones]

I can relate, CJ.

Different people have different interpretations of ALPHA FLIGHT, but I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment of why the illogical grouping.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

Don't read vol. 4 with the expectation that Heather gets treated better. She doesn't. [poor, defenseless cousins...]

Unfortunately, at this point, right NOW, I couldn't care less about Heather.
And THAT is what ticks me off the MOST.

I went from ADORING her, thinking she was damn-near-perfect, to absolutely not giving a crap about her, to wishing they'd just kill her off because she's THAT BAD.
All in, what, 22 issues. Yes, 22 issues.
Wow, that's a lot of issues, actually.
And Heather has been horrid in every single one of those issues.

[Crackity Jones]

#52 was the worst issue I have read so far.
You guys want me to list all the things wrong with it? Or do you remember?
*Heather hits an all-time high in stupidity.
*Mantlo states very clearly (via Box/Jeffries) that Knapp is a med school graduate, which means he is clearly well over an age to be trying to...wait, NO ONE should be trying to sex up a 13 year old.
*I believe NOTHING of what was said about Mac. I won't accept it. I won't. I know it's going to be undone just like the elves thing, right?

Those are the only three things I am listing that was wrong with the issue for now.
This issue SUCKED.
I am unhappy.
I cannot believe all the f*#kery that just happened in this book. Heather needs to just go away.
And is Gary Cody dead??

[Crackity Jones]

I am so blasted pissed at #52.
MAKE NOTE OF THIS: #52 was the WORST ALPHA FLIGHT ISSUE EVER.

[Tawmis]

The Rouleau stuff was quite stylistic and I can see why people didn't like it.
I personally wouldn't use the term bad though.


Was Rouleau the first or second artist? Another artist came on who was more cartoony - I found that more bearable.
Keep in mind, when I say bad - I mean by the standard I'd expect and hope from Marvel. Most of Marvel's artists could draw circles around me on their worse day, and be better than me at my best. (Though the current Uncanny X-Men artist, whoever, the Hades that is - I feel I might have a fair shot at beating artistically!)



Yeah, Murmur was pretty redundant but was an important part of the Legacy sub plot they were building and never got to.
Manbot didn't have a chance to show any point or potential, again for the same reason.


We got, what, 20 issues? That was more than enough time to inject some personality, besides a one dimensional piece of cardboard.



These are fictional characters though; you can only follow established personalities for so long without repeating them. Hence re-creation.


Right, everyone changes. But not so drastically, usually, without it being:
- A major event in their life
- Mental illness



Earthmover is essentially Shaman & Talisman; a normal every day citizen pulled into a legacy of shaman magic.
To write one off is to write the other two off.


He had the personality of a rock.
And that's insulting some of my pet rocks I had in my youth!



The problem with him is essentially the same as Murmur; he was a redundant character because Shaman & Talisman existed and fulfilled the role, and that he literally got 2 issues of guest appearances before being reduced to silent cameos.


Redundant can easily exist. I thought Shaman and Talisman, were pretty much the same. But they each stuck out. Aurora and Northstar are the same, but they stuck out.

Why?

Personality!



He's my fourth favourite Alphan after Sasquatch, Puck and Wild Child.


Really? Earthmover? Over Snowbird? Shaman? Talisman? Aurora? Northstar?



I saw no problem in Llan as a character whatsoever.
Just the resolution of the arc.

Well, you're entitled to be wrong. LOL

And then this happened....

IMO, it's okay to ADD to personalities of characters, but not change them.
Which is what I feel has happened a LOT in what I've read of Mantlo's run so far.
You start changing pre-loved and established characters, you kill off a good portion of your loyal audience, imo.

I definitely agree to an extent but there's a very blurred line between adding and changing, and a distinct one between changing and contrasting.
My personality has changed from 5 years ago; I've grown/evolved/natured/nurtured/endured.
Change is fine as long as there's a justifiable, logical reason.

What I meant by "add to characters' personalities" is that, obviously characters are going to go through written experiences which will add to what they are and (blurred line of "add" and "change" here) that may somewhat change how they are, but to make them completely different than how they started and were initially established? No.
Also: I've changed as well over the past 5 years. But I'm not a fictional character. People aren't reading my life with the expectations of knowing who I am. :wink:

Then in that case Mantlo didn't change the characters personalities, he completely contradicted what was already established, with no good reason.
Which is poor writing.
Which I totally agree with you on.


Which is what I was trying to say! You just agreed because Crackity is a woman! And she used her womanly charms! And better explanations! LOL


One decision keeps popping up for me about AF# 44: if your leader (Heather) or your team-mates (Judd and Jeffries) KNOW that your powers are going to get negated if you touch your sibling, why on earth would you split the team up and have Northstar and Aurora in the same group, in a cave, going after a foe who beat them handily the first time?

Because Heather is a dumb ass, once she put on the costumes? That's my guess.
She might have gotten worse Alpha Flight character ever created - only pre-costumed Heather saves her from that role, when she was actually an amazing character and very believable.


<---Bitter. Will always be bitter over how Heather was changed. ALWAYS.

Don't worry. There's plenty I will always be bitter about in comics.
- Heather in a costume
- Snowbird killed
- Walter killed
- Walter brought back as a woman

And that's just in Alpha Flight... if we go beyond Alpha Flight, I'd crash the server with all my complaints...


I can relate, CJ.

Different people have different interpretations of ALPHA FLIGHT, but I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment of why the illogical grouping.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

Don't read vol. 4 with the expectation that Heather gets treated better. She doesn't. [poor, defenseless cousins...]

LOL! So. So. So. So. VERY true.


Funny, I felt the same way. As I was buying it, I was enjoying it a great deal. Maybe it was just the "buzz" of finally having some of these characters available again. But when I read it again a couple of years later I was trying to remember what I liked. The art was often brutal and the new characters were completely unappealing to me. The book, by and large, is a giant mess.

Yes, it felt like story wise, after re-reading it - the writer had a very, very, very, very loose notion of where he was going - but seemed to have "related" plot lines he was just pulling from a hat. It didn't feel focused.



RE: EarthMover
He, my friend, had potential. Granted, the first time he flew into the sun he got covered in concrete and ended up stuck on the edge of a building, but still, at least he didn't get wet.


He could have stayed in the sun.



What's sad is, it's a cover version that's stuck in mine, not the Janis original. :sad:


Same. I always think of ROUGH CUTT's version, because, sadly that's where I heard it first. And is, my preference.


Unfortunately, at this point, right NOW, I couldn't care less about Heather.
And THAT is what ticks me off the MOST.

I went from ADORING her, thinking she was damn-near-perfect, to absolutely not giving a crap about her, to wishing they'd just kill her off because she's THAT BAD.
All in, what, 22 issues. Yes, 22 issues.
Wow, that's a lot of issues, actually.
And Heather has been horrid in every single one of those issues.

#52 was the worst issue I have read so far.
You guys want me to list all the things wrong with it? Or do you remember?
*Heather hits an all-time high in stupidity.
*Mantlo states very clearly (via Box/Jeffries) that Knapp is a med school graduate, which means he is clearly well over an age to be trying to...wait, NO ONE should be trying to sex up a 13 year old.
*I believe NOTHING of what was said about Mac. I won't accept it. I won't. I know it's going to be undone just like the elves thing, right?
I am so blasted pissed at #52.
MAKE NOTE OF THIS: #52 was the WORST ALPHA FLIGHT ISSUE EVER.


I would like to say it gets better... that Heather gets better... But... no.

[Le Messor]

Le Messor, you're giving me goosebumps.

If you feel a shiver down your spine, don't worry. It's probably just the wind.


*I believe NOTHING of what was said about Mac. I won't accept it. I won't. I know it's going to be undone just like the elves thing, right?
And is Gary Cody dead??

Um... Yes, it will be fixed.
And, he shows up alive later.


Most of Marvel's artists could draw circles around me

Actually, circles are very, very hard to draw.


You just agreed because Crackity is a woman! And she used her womanly charms! And better explanations! LOL

And the whole being right thing.


Same. I always think of ROUGH CUTT's version, because, sadly that's where I heard it first. And is, my preference.

I think mine's by Jenny Morris.

~ Le Messor
"Most of the people who are writing advertising today have never had to sell anything to anybody. They've never seen a consumer."

[Crackity Jones]

I have no womanly charm. Even when I try it's ruined by me either sneezing, tripping over myself and falling, partially walking into a wall or doorway, freaking out over a bug, a panic attack, a paper cut, accidental work-related injury, a lack of good depth perception, or saying the wrong, stupidest thing at the wrong time (is there EVER a right time to say something stupid?).

[Phil]

I am so blasted pissed at #52.
MAKE NOTE OF THIS: #52 was the WORST ALPHA FLIGHT ISSUE EVER.
Hate to say I told you so... :(

[Phil]

Was Rouleau the first or second artist? Another artist came on who was more cartoony - I found that more bearable.
Keep in mind, when I say bad - I mean by the standard I'd expect and hope from Marvel.
Rouleau was the final artist, whose art was actually disliked more by the general readership than Clark's who opened the series, which just goes to prove art is personal.
And again that shows that your expectations and hope differ from everyone elses.


We got, what, 20 issues? That was more than enough time to inject some personality, besides a one dimensional piece of cardboard.
It wasn't 20 issues of Murmur though.
At some point I'll have a count of the actual panels she appears in and the amount of words she actually says.
Her personality was ignored at the sake of Mac/Heather/Puck etc's. Which I agree with.


Right, everyone changes. But not so drastically, usually, without it being:
- A major event in their life
- Mental illness
And her husband being blown up in front of her wasn't major?


He had the personality of a rock.
And that's insulting some of my pet rocks I had in my youth!
He had no personality at all, for the very reason I've mentioned with regards to Murmur.
Stan Lee has had more lines in Marvel Comics than Earthmover.


Redundant can easily exist. I thought Shaman and Talisman, were pretty much the same. But they each stuck out. Aurora and Northstar are the same, but they stuck out.
Northstar and Aurora were introduced at the same time though so no redundancy.
Talisman was essentially a carbon copy of Shaman.


Personality!
Personality needs time to develop.

Earthmover had two guest appearances in the pages of Wolverine.
Did Shaman have a personality based on just Uncanny X-Men #120-121? No, he definitely didn't.
You have to apply the same rule to both characters.


Really? Earthmover? Over Snowbird? Shaman? Talisman? Aurora? Northstar?
No, Wyre over all 5 of those.

[Phil]

Um... Yes, it will be fixed.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here as it definitely doesn't get fixed, just never mentioned again...

[Phil]

Someone posted it in an X-Factor thread somewhere else, and I thought I was dreaming for a minute: I mean, a mix of X-Factor and Alpha Flight? I don't see it ever happening, but I GOT SUPER EXCITED FOR A SECOND because I thought Marvel really loved me and was going to make allllll my comic dreams come true.:(

You may like #107... Or at least the cover.

[TSOG]

Earthmover had two guest appearances in the pages of Wolverine.
Did Shaman have a personality based on just Uncanny X-Men #120-121? No, he definitely didn't.
You have to apply the same rule to both characters.

I was late in reading his appearances but I'd heard the hate for him prior to doing so.

When I did read them, I didn't really get it. He's not a terrible character by any means. I guess he felt a little random, and maybe shoe-horned, but not to the degree that he should be dismissed entirely.

I certainly enjoyed him more than any of the noobs in volume 2. Or 3, for that matter (although I believe that Yukon Jack had potential. There, I said it).

[TSOG]

Um... Yes, it will be fixed.
And, he shows up alive later.

Then dies again.
And comes back.
And croaks.
But returns.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Is Mac the all-time leader in resurrections? Is there a stat for that?

[TSOG]

I have no womanly charm. Even when I try it's ruined by me either sneezing, tripping over myself and falling, partially walking into a wall or doorway, freaking out over a bug, a panic attack, a paper cut, accidental work-related injury, a lack of good depth perception, or saying the wrong, stupidest thing at the wrong time (is there EVER a right time to say something stupid?).

Oh, you're human? Pleased to meet you. ;-)

[Tawmis]

I have no womanly charm. Even when I try it's ruined by saying the wrong, stupidest thing at the wrong time (is there EVER a right time to say something stupid?).

Are you Heather? :)



It wasn't 20 issues of Murmur though. At some point I'll have a count of the actual panels she appears in and the amount of words she actually says. Her personality was ignored at the sake of Mac/Heather/Puck etc's. Which I agree with.


True, but if you're going to throw a new character at us - why not do what Byrne did? Spend an issue focusing on her so the readers have something to associate her with. Some reason to like her, or dislike her (and by dislike her, I mean because she's such a ***** or whatever - sort of like M. A lot of people dislike her, but for all the right reasons - because she's so stand off'ish, and that's a part of her personality and charm, if you will!)

At least, with Radius, I felt like he got a lot of development, showing how overly cocky he was, and he was clearly over compensating...



And her husband being blown up in front of her wasn't major?


It was. But it's not like she threw on her costume and then lost all her common sense right after. He died in issue #12. Heather seems to go through a complete change many, many, many issues later (a little over a year, in issues).



Personality needs time to develop.


I agree. But sometimes you can define a character in a single issue, if you do it right.

There was 20 issues. And it never happened. Other than "Don't you dare touch me!" type attitude.



Did Shaman have a personality based on just Uncanny X-Men #120-121? No, he definitely didn't.
You have to apply the same rule to both characters.


120 he was a shadow. 121 was his first full appearance. So naturally, no personality is developed in the first appearance. But in the original, he got a personality pretty quick. Especially when Talisman was introduced.



No, Wyre over all 5 of those.
[/quote]

Okay, you prefer Wyre to all those original members I mentioned? Phil, something is wrong with you! I mean it's expected of me, but not normal people...!


Then dies again.
And comes back.
And croaks.
But returns.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Is Mac the all-time leader in resurrections? Is there a stat for that?

Him and Jean certainly have a lot in common. Deaths. Alternate versions. Clones.

I wonder who leads in this...

[Crackity Jones]

Then dies again.
And comes back.
And croaks.
But returns.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Is Mac the all-time leader in resurrections? Is there a stat for that?

Poor Mac. :( It sucks when your fave is treated the worst out of all the team members and only lives, initially, for 13 issues.

I think Le Messor was answering my question about whether or not Gary Cody was really dead.

[Crackity Jones]

Are you Heather? :)

*gasp*!
BITE YOUR TONGUE, Tawmis!

[Crackity Jones]

Hate to say I told you so... :(

You said I might not like it, you never said it was going to be worst thing EVER.
It wasn't just the Mac stuff that got to me.
It was Heather and her stupid thought bubbles of how awful Mac was (on the anniversary of his death?) and then making out with Jeffries. I don't think that could have been written any worse.