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Well the series has begun and the other discussion is not easily avaliable so lets make a new one here.
So anyways issue #53 came out and had a cameo of Alpha Flight sans Northstar. Overall a good set-up issue, nothing ground breaking but once again Dale knocks it out of the park. Love how he draws characters, and have always been a fan since his work on JSA.
Anyone else get it? and what is your thoughts?
I'd call it more than a cameo.
It's definitely guest starring the team, and everyone gets some lines.
The issue is mostly set up, but is a nice easy access for new readers.
Alpha's scene's read well and Sasquatch's gamma connection makes sense so I can overlook the possessed-again-ness of it all.
Dale's art is spot on as ever.
I love the two page spread of the team in action, and the panel with Snowbird mid-transform into a Sasquatch is really nice.
His Rick Jones & General Ross are really nice too.
I'm looking forward to the rest of the arc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIGGER
Hmm... looks like a bad day for Digger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
(Though I don't know if they duke it out or fall in love, or fall on Duke. The real question being, is that G.I. Joe Duke or Predator Duke?)
- Le Messor
"A hobby is hard work you wouldn't do for a living."
Yeah, but it wasn't much of a leap seeing as we'd seen Snowbird as a sasquatch duking it out with Sasquatch back in March when the appearance was first announced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
I feel the whole Sasquatch/Tanaraq connection is being ignored for a more gamma radiation orgin.
If the Gamma angle was completely new I'd agree, but it's still the initial cause of his connection to Tanaraq so I can understand the useage.
I haven't been looking at the art - I rarely do before I look at the comic. So, my bad there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Yeah, I agree with Phil (without having yet read the book - maybe it'll be a case of saying Sas is a Gamma Beast, not a Great Beast or something and I'll end up agreeing with K-M).Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
- Le Messor
"If you think this fortune is confusing, then change one pig."
To be fair that's a perfectly valid way to do it; I forget that not everyone likes previews/spoilers. So totally my bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
By that logic you'll end up agreeing with K-M rather than me :))Quote:
Yeah, I agree with Phil (without having yet read the book - maybe it'll be a case of saying Sas is a Gamma Beast, not a Great Beast or something and I'll end up agreeing with K-M).
But will I agree with ME?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
- Le Messor
"Easy to agree with others - far harder to agree with yourself."
~ Gremlins 2
He tried to repeat the process of Hulk, he failed and opened up a mystical portal and gained his powers. I seriously dont see how you can say it's the same thing as Tanaraq is not gamma powered nor does Sasqutch emit gamma radiation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
I didn't say it was the same thing or that he was Gamma powered, but it was his experimentation with gamma rays that opened the portal.
Without the gamma rays and experimentation he'd never have opened it.
There is undeniably a gamma connection which is all I said.
Walter would probably still emit gamma rays.
Though saying that, he is in Snowbird's original body still, isn't he?
The connection is through a failed experiment that opened a mystical gateway to an elder god of the night to power him as an avatar. That's the extent of the gamma radiation connection and that's how the connection ends. No, he shouldn't as the Great Beasts don't emit gamma radiation all the radiation did was open a portal and that's it. Sasquatch nor Tanaraq are a gamma beast their mystical vortexs (as noted). All gamma radiation did was open a door for something more powerful to walk through.
Tanaraq is not a gamma beast
1. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...man_040-11.jpg
He is.
Which is all very weird, as the reason Walter did his gamma radiation experiments, is that he was one of only a handful of people on earth who were immune to gamma radiation effetcs.
Again KM, never once did I say that either Sasquatch or Tanaraq were Gamma Beasts.
And again, I never said that Great Beasts emit radiation, I specifically used Walter as in human form.
And if as you say, and I agree, that all Gamma radiation did was open a door THAT is surely a connection?
As FP says, Walter is immune to the effects meaning they don't harm him, but having experimented on himself he'd surely give off rats in human form?
Just because your immune to radiation doesnt mean you emit radiation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
K-M, it looks ambiguous, but that's not what Phil was saying. He's saying that it's because Walt's immune and and was exposed that he'd give off rads. (Not rats in human form; I believe that's Carrion, and he lives in New York.)Quote:
Originally Posted by -K-M-
My question is not so much 'is there a connection between Walt / Sas and gamma radiation?' as 'do they say or imply that Sasquatch was created by gamma radiation, and is one of the gamma creatures like Hulk, Doc Sampson, The Leader, or the Abomination?' 'Did he then turn orange because Byrne was such a genius that he foresaw the time when green would no longer exist in comics, and orange was the only colour in the medium?'
- Le Messor
"There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about."
~ Oscar Wilde
I get what he is saying, he says there is a gamma connection and there really is not
Not once has it shown Walter emits radiation and we only saw the one time he tested on himself to replicate the procedure. Yet we never saw a time before or after where he was exposed to radiation. So to say he emit gamma radiation is a stretch.
Yes they said that as why he was orange due to the canadian atmosphere, but as noted he was wrong. He didn't know he opened a door for a mystical creture to power him until later
If you go by Vol. 4 though gamma radiation is the means by which Walter activates the transformation into Sasquatch, so there is some kind of connection. Whether he would have enough radiation within his cells to merit attention by the Mayan gods is another thing.
Indeed. Thanks for understanding my ramblings. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
And grr for autocorrect on my phone. I meant rays.
There is undeniably a gamma connection to Walt/Sasquatch.Quote:
Originally Posted by -K-M-
In Byrne's original Sasquatch origin story in Volume 1 he recreates Banner's accident and submits himself to gamma rays.
FACT.
Walt + Gamma = Connection.
Not a retcon that Greg Pak/Jeff Parker have pulled out of their asses.
Nowhere did I say that Sasquatch was a result of Gamma mutation or a Gamma beast, simply that his origin on this earth involving Walt was connected to Gamma experimentation.
'Connection' being the key word I carefully chose and used.
Heather & Mac have a connection to Woverine. Does this mean they have adamantium claws and a healing factor? No, but they have a connection.
In the same way had Walt never experimented with Gamma rays he would never have opened the portal linking him to Tanaraq.
No Gamma Rays = No Sasquatch.
Connection.
That was something I was hypothesizing about after YOU brought up emitting gamma, so yeah that's fine.Quote:
Not once has it shown Walter emits radiation and we only saw the one time he tested on himself to replicate the procedure. Yet we never saw a time before or after where he was exposed to radiation. So to say he emit gamma radiation is a stretch.
However, nowhere has it been said/shown that he doesn't emit them, so we have nothing in canon either way.
Again, opened by the Gamma rays. Connection.Quote:
He didn't know he opened a door for a mystical creture to power him until later
There is that, but I was simply focusing on Byrne's origin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Legerd
Yeah, again, that was me just flowing with this thread.Quote:
Whether he would have enough radiation within his cells to merit attention by the Mayan gods is another thing.
Looking at the line that's started this whole thing:
it can be taken several ways, and I was never actually defending the line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayan Gods to A-Bomb after Snowbird & Sasquatch are captured
Sweet you ignored what I said really. Yes Bryne made a "connection", but the connection as NOTED even by Bryne himself the gamma radiation opened a gateway it did NOT manipulate or modify him directly. Nor does gamma radiation course through him, nor is gamma radiation emitted from Walter or Sasquatch nor was gamma radiation refered to again after it was revealed what Walter thought he did during the experiment was in fact wrong and nor did Walter's current body even go through the gamma radiation experiment making it all trivial.
Following that logic if an energy source is used to open up a doorway such as how Shaman opened up a gateway to the realm of the beasts with magic that means Vindicator, Aurora, etc. all have magical connection then? No. Mr.Fantastic opens gatways to the Negative zone is he powered by that? No. Gamma radiation was the key to open the door, Sasquatch, nor Tanaraq are powered by it their powered by magic as noted. The connection your holding on to is a vague connection and not that strong and prior to Vol.4 was not referenced of Walter being gamma radiation depended.
If you want to nitpick my word use of cameo earlier, Im doing the exact same thing to you now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legerd
*sigh* Clearly you guys are not getting what I'm saying. As I said earlier, "I feel the whole Sasquatch/Tanaraq connection is being ignored for a more gamma radiation orgin". The writers are ignoring the Tanaraq connection and going with the gamma radiation route as prior to AF vol.4 he is and was powered by magic. Hence why Talisman could manipulate him several times and as noted by other mystical sensistive characters could sense Walter. Not once did someone comment on his gamma radiation connection prior to the mystical reveal, nor did it ever say he was gamma radiation dependent.
Also add to the fact he is in Snowbird's body, a body that did not even go through the gamma radiation experiment.
This is a retcon.
I could totally be recalling this wrong, but I thought Snowbird had indicated (in issue #23 of Volume 1) that the Sasquatch form was a new being and not Tanaraq's true form (and since this new being was born in Canada she was able to take its shape)? I always thought that Sasquatch was a combo of a gamma mutated human and Tanaraq's spirit which came through the portal created by Langkowski's experiment? So he is actually a combo of science and magic?
Dana
That was the original belief, but that was changed when they learnt more. As noted the gamma radiation smashed the gateways for the Beasts to enter. At that time Snowbird did not know much of what was going on and didn't even know Walter had a connection to Tanaraq. We have seen Snowbird take the form of 3 Great Beasts in total, she was mistaken as was Walter beliving he gained his powers through gamma radiation alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrkoenig67
I don't think we are, we're just saying that he could still have gamma radiation in his body. And trying to make sense of the comic (which I haven't read yet, I'm just trying to reconcile what's being said on this thread; I could be missing pertinent details because of it).Quote:
Originally Posted by -K-M-
Walter bombarded himself with gamma during his origin; which is different to your examples above. It could still be there (at least, the way it works in the MU, it could). Nobody here is saying that's what made Sasquatch, just that it's still in his system. Which hasn't been mentioned before, because why would it?
Now that is completely true and shows sloppy research by the writers.Quote:
Originally Posted by -K-M-
- Le Messor
"If you think squash is a competitive activity, try flower arranging."
~ Alan Bennett
From his recent bio:
"Eventually working in an isolated lab above the Artic Circle, Langkwoski exposed himself to gamma rays, hoping to recreate the Hulk mutation under controlled circumstances. Instead, he unknowingly peirced a mystic barrier that imprisoned the Great Beast Tanaraq, allowing him to form a mystic symbiosis with Langwaski, transforming Langwoski into a bestial avatar of Tanaraq; however, Longwoski wrongly believed the unexpected orange-furred results of the experiment were from a combination of mixing gamma radiation and cosmic rays with the Aurora Borelesis"
They also specfically go on to mention several times he is mystical powered and was mystically bonded.
and other characters bombared themeselves with magic (such as Iron Man) but does that mean he have a magical connection? No. As noted all the gamma rays did was open the door for Walter to gain the powers of Tanaraq. Radation eventually decays and wouldn't constantly remain especially with someone that has a healing factor. Look at Wolverine and the amount of radiation he has been exposed to, but he does not emit radiation or have radiation in his systemQuote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
That's a possible interpretation - I got that it was the combination of Walter and Tanaraq that was new, not the form itself, as indicated by her 'rents, showing Birdie the form of the last Great Beast, and it was Sas. Also, we've only ever seen Tanaraq looking like Sas, no other form.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrkoenig67
Look at it this way - I'd never have written a comic that said that Walter still has gamma radiation in his (much less Snowbird's) body. However, now that we (apparently) have one, I'm just trying to make it make some sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by -K-M-
Oh, well, at least nobody's ever said he's a dog-mutant.
- Le Messor
"If you took all the sincerity in Hollywood and put it in the navel of a fruit fly, you'd still have room for three carraway seeds and a producer's heart."
~ Fred Allen
But do we know for a fact that Sasquatch has Tanaraq's powers or are they merely the powers this avatar form has? Do we even know for a fact that Tanaraq had a physical form or did he just influence the form that Langkowski's experiment created so he could inhabit it? There seems to be still a few questions left unanswered where Tanaraq and Sasquatch are concerned.
BTW: Snowbird being able to transform into Great Beasts is a retcon too, isn't it? She originally could only transform into Native canadian beings and animals, then later she was free to transform into any animal native to Earth (later in Volume 1). As she said in volume 1, she could transform into the Sasquatch form because it was a native-born Canadian creature...Tanaraq is not, as he and the Great Beasts are extra-dimensional beings.
Snowbird being able to transform into Neooqtoq and Tundra are retcons, AFAIK (since they are aliens, unless of course, they were both somehow born on Earth or perhaps their forms are Earthly avatars that she can become?).
Dana
Yes, which as I was saying this is a retcon. As my original comment "I feel the whole Sasquatch/Tanaraq connection is being ignored for a more gamma radiation orgin", indicates that prior to Vol.4 the gamma connection was not referenced nor was he dependent on gamma radiation. The writers are modifying his origins/powers for their story same way Loeb was trying with Sasquatch being a Lupine. All gamma radiation did was open a door for a mystical force to walk through, that's the extent of the connection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
Indeed, it's mentioned in the bios he is class 90 in his base form but can draw on more strength by tapping more into Tanaraq. In the bio it also says, "Langwoski's soul later animated Snowbird's body granting him idential powers as Tanaraq's form".Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrkoenig67
Sorry I edited my post so much...LOL. I added a lot (about Snowbird) to it after I posted it.
Dana
I actually used to wonder if Wanda (cringe) would theoretically be able to transform into other animals/creatures like Snowbird could, but s/he just didn't know how to? That s/he was only able to turn into Sasquatch because that's all s/he knew and Snowbird's body was able to take that form?Quote:
Originally Posted by -K-M-
Yes, it's a retcon. Retcons happen there is no denying it. Im not against them, but as I said I feel their ignoring his true origins and retconning it. Then all I have been doing is explaining why this is a retcon.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrkoenig67
Also Snowbird could transform into any animal on Earth when she was mortal, when she became immortal again it's only supposed to be from Canada again. Then with her rebirth her powers seemed to have changed under the experiments with AIM. She is still mentioned to be only able to transform into Canadian creatures plus the Great Beasts for some reason.
Yep Im right with you on that, I feel like Wanda could transform into more transformation, but as you said that's all she knew and thats all she could transform into.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrkoenig67
I never once said it did manipulate or modify him.Quote:
Originally Posted by -K-M-
And you were the one who brought up emitting.Quote:
Nor does gamma radiation course through him, nor is gamma radiation emitted from Walter or Sasquatch
Which is something I mentioned, in agreement.Quote:
and nor did Walter's current body even go through the gamma radiation experiment making it all trivial.
They do in that regards though.Quote:
Following that logic if an energy source is used to open up a doorway such as how Shaman opened up a gateway to the realm of the beasts with magic that means Vindicator, Aurora, etc. all have magical connection then? No.
They have been exposed to magic.
Compared to a normal human being in the Marvel Universe they have a stronger connection to magic, having experienced it.
Again, nowhere have I said Sasquatch is powered by Gamma.Quote:
Mr.Fantastic opens gatways to the Negative zone is he powered by that? No.
Mr Fantastic is however now connected to the Negative Zone.
Which is the connection I mentioned that I really really regret doing.Quote:
Gamma radiation was the key to open the door
I totally agree, and have never stated otherwise.Quote:
Sasquatch, nor Tanaraq are powered by it their powered by magic as noted.
That's true, it's vague and not often referenced but it exists hence I understand it.Quote:
The connection your holding on to is a vague connection and not that strong and prior to Vol.4 was not referenced of Walter being gamma radiation depended.
Nowhere did I say I liked it, merely that I understand it.
I didn't once nitpick.Quote:
If you want to nitpick my word use of cameo earlier, Im doing the exact same thing to you now.
I said that "I" wouldn't call it a cameo.
Meaning me, myself and I.
My opinion.
You can call it a cameo, I call it something else. Hell, I can call it a blue bouncing banana if I want.
Nowhere did I say that you were wrong to call it a cameo.
Why is it that suddenly this place has become somewhere that I can't express my opinion?
Your initial post asked for my(/our) thoughts and when I give them to you you jump down my throat telling me I'm wrong.
Which is the only thing I've been saying from the start.Quote:
Originally Posted by -K-M-
Forget emiting gamma, forget gamma powered, forget gamma beast, forget gamma origin. I never said any of those things originally.
Key words being "connection" and "I can overlook"Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Again, I meaning me and only me alone. If I'm the only person in the world who overlooks it then so be it.
I'm not making it law or forcing it upon anyone else.
Can we just agree to disagree and leave it at that extent of a connection as you've mentioned above.
Going by that logic then, the Tanaraq connection is the retcon.Quote:
Originally Posted by -K-M-
Sasquatch's origin as told in Volume 1 #11 is all Gamma related.
nowhere is the portal or Tanaraq mentioned in that issue.
Or at least that's how I read it.
Youre welcome to disagree :)
It's not just you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
I've understood what you've been saying - and what you haven't - all along; sorry if I haven't made my support clear.
- Mik
"It makes all the difference whether you hear an insect in the garden or in the bedroom."
~ Robert Lynd
I always thought Snowy could transform into Sasquatch form because 'a Sasquatch' (as clearly shown on Volume 2) is a native form to Canada.Quote:
As she said in volume 1, she could transform into the Sasquatch form because it was a native-born Canadian creature...Tanaraq is not, as he and the Great Beasts are extra-dimensional beings.
Likewise, i never really thought that Tanaraq (?) made Sasquatch into its avatar, so much as twisted Langkowksi's experiment (which took place both in Canada, and near the fickle nothern lights-which may have played havoc with the experiment as well) so that rather than a pure 'gamma beast form' (and please note that every gamma beast created, they all look different) Walter was transformed into a beast more like both Tanaraq and also like the Sasquatch beast that is native to Canada.
On a side note, shouldn't there be a clear explanation as to why Tanaraq and Sasquatches look so similar?
Also, Walter may likely have, and likely did, expose himself to gamma radiation more than just the single time, as how else would he have known that he was immune to gamma radiation (which is what Fantastic Four issue 267 implies rather strongly)? It is also stated in several places that Walter WAS bombarded with massive amounts of Gamma Rays during his experiment; if he hadn't been, he would have then wondered how and why he could transform into a creature like Sas.
All in all, an interesting discussion. Once again, we reach areas where we can see that we wish past writers (such as Byrne) had been more clear on what Walter went through and how it all relates, and instead we get new writers interpreting these things in ways that fit their current storyline (and many of us don't like it). Such is the fickleness of comics, especially when your team/character is not being written by a trusted writer in an ongoing series; we have no control over what happens to the charcaters we love, and those who temporarily do have the control, have no repercussions for screwing up a character they will drop and never touch again in a few issues.
She actually stated clearly that she could become Sasquatch because the bonding of Walt & Tanaraq happened in Canada, which is a technicality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
She even used that word.
*sigh* sad but true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
- Le Messor
"A day is a miniature eternity."
~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
One of the things i love so much about this site, is the people's passion.
So, for anybody who may be a noob here and is reading this thread, "relax, everyone here are friends"! Sometimes our passions for the character(s) get the best of us, and we just have to cut loose with some major complaining, and 'dang all who get in our way' until we have calmed down. But, at the end of the day, everyone here respects each other and our rights to dfferent opinions and such (even though all who disagree with me, are wrong- lol).
I've been known to cut loose a few times myself.
But, like the Ramones sang, "We're a happy family" !