Crackity Jones' Discovery Of Alpha Flight

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

I know who you mean, Phil.

Me, too. But not so sure that i'd agree about them being ruined.

When Crackity gets past them I'll post a big ol' rant about it ;)

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Originally Posted by Phil

When Crackity gets past them I'll post a big ol' rant about it ;)

How long until I get there?
I'm going to be starting #54 soon. I feel like such an Alpha Baby.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Hey! Leave a tender moment alone!

Well, I really shouldn't have been surprised by it. She had mentioned twice, on the same page, in the beginning of the issue that she was going to be giving him his own private training session.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

That sounds about right. They definitely weren't introduced in the annuals. (Honestly, though, I never had the introduction problem you're having; I wonder why?)

If you go back and read #52, and then you read #53, pretend this is your first go with Alpha Flight, pretend you have mostly been traumatized by Mantlo's run, and pretend you have just lost every character in the story that you ever cared about (and that includes Heather, but that's been one, long, dragged out good bye for over 20 issues now). You will know what I am talking about. Or at least remember the feeling.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Also, I ended up naming my cat after Goblyn!

~ Le Messor
Mum: Calvin, how did you break this dish?
Calvin: I was carrying too much and it dropped.
Mum: Your problem is you've got no common sense.
Calvin: I've got plenty of common sense. I just choose to ignore it.

awwwww!

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

You are, most definitely.

I missed this somehow!
Thank you, Garry! <3

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

She apologized for thinking tons of bad things about Mac.

I was looking forward to you getting to that point. O:)

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Originally Posted by Phil

When Crackity gets past them I'll post a big ol' rant about it ;)

Don't! Phil, no! You'll ruin your reputation among Crackity as the best person on this forum!

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

How long until I get there? I'm going to be starting #54 soon. I feel like such an Alpha Baby.

Patience, Padawan. It will be quite some time.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Hey! Leave a tender moment alone!

Well, I really shouldn't have been surprised by it.

It was out of the blue, and made me feel sorry for Puck.
I still couldn't resist a Billy Joel joke, though. Perfect set-ups like that don't come along every day. :)

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

If you go back and read #52, and then you read #53, pretend this is your first go with Alpha Flight, pretend you have mostly been traumatized by Mantlo's run, and pretend you have just lost every character in the story that you ever cared about (and that includes Heather, but that's been one, long, dragged out good bye for over 20 issues now). You will know what I am talking about. Or at least remember the feeling.

Unlike you, I didn't read them in order the first time. Maybe that had something to do with it? I EXPECTED characters to appear and disappear without introduction or fanfare, so when it happened I wasn't surprised.
Also, I don't have to pretend I've mostly been traumatised by Mantlo's run.
Mostly.
:(

I have re-read all of them in order, though, since.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

(Heather) apologized for thinking tons of bad things about Mac.

Is this what I was referring to, do you suppose, when I talked about the bad things said about Mac being kinda retconned away?

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

It's the small things, I guess.

~ Le Messor
"You can burn my house, you can cut my hair
You can make me wrestle naked with a grizzly bear
...
But if you talk in the movies, I'll kill you right there

It's the little things, it's just the little things"

~ Alice Cooper, It's The Little Things

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Don't! Phil, no! You'll ruin your reputation among Crackity as the best person on this forum!

Phil is AWESOME!!!!!
But I have yet to come across anyone here who is NOT awesome (including you :p).

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Patience, Padawan. It will be quite some time.

As much as I'm sure you love the fact that this is torturing me, I will be patient.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

It was out of the blue, and made me feel sorry for Puck.
I still couldn't resist a Billy Joel joke, though. Perfect set-ups like that don't come along every day. :)

Oh! Yeah, the INITIAL relationship/hit-on/development/whatever of Heather and Jeffries made me feel bad for Puck, but I was specifically referring to the private training session from issue #53

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Unlike you, I didn't read them in order the first time. Maybe that had something to do with it? I EXPECTED characters to appear and disappear without introduction or fanfare, so when it happened I wasn't surprised.
Also, I don't have to pretend I've mostly been traumatised by Mantlo's run.
Mostly.
:(

I can never tell with you if you liked Mantlo's run or hated it. hahaha. You say, a lot that you didn't like it, but then you say something that makes me second guess if you are joking or serious. OR? I DO NOT KNOW.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Is this what I was referring to, do you suppose, when I talked about the bad things said about Mac being kinda retconned away?

Maybe? I am not sure. Only YOU know what you were referring to.:p There could be OTHER things during Mantlo's run that you were referring to, and I wouldn't know because I haven't read it yet.
I'm glad she finally had a sensible thought bubble, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Messor

~ Le Messor
"You can burn my house, you can cut my hair
You can make me wrestle naked with a grizzly bear
...
But if you talk in the movies, I'll kill you right there

It's the little things, it's just the little things"

~ Alice Cooper, It's The Little Things

Yeah, yeah. hahahaha.

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Originally Posted by TSOG

I was looking forward to you getting to that point. O:)

YAY!!!

So is she done talking smack about Mac? Or is this going to happen again?

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

But I have yet to come across anyone here who is NOT awesome (including you :p).

You don't know me! :P

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

As much as I'm sure you love the fact that this is torturing me, I will be patient.

So it's to be torture?
No, I don't love that side of it. :(

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Oh! Yeah, the INITIAL relationship/hit-on/development/whatever of Heather and Jeffries made me feel bad for Puck, but I was specifically referring to the private training session from issue #53

To me, their relationship came from nowhere, seemed very random, and stomped on things that'd gone before.
So, yeah.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

I can never tell with you if you liked Mantlo's run or hated it. hahaha. You say, a lot that you didn't like it, but then you say something that makes me second guess if you are joking or serious. OR? I DO NOT KNOW.

Overall, I did NOT like it, but there were things in it that I did like.
Sometimes I'm joking, but still telling the truth. :?

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Maybe? I am not sure. Only YOU know what you were referring to.:p There could be OTHER things during Mantlo's run that you were referring to,

In this case, I don't know either. I just remember having a feeling of relief that they'd retconned away (even vaguely) something I'd hated from the beginning.
Whatever it was may not have been in Mantlo's run.

~ Le Messor
"Must I hold a candle to my shames?"

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

You don't know me! :P

BUT I FEEL LIKE I DO. OOOOH.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

So it's to be torture?
No, I don't love that side of it. :(

Wtf were we even talking about with this again?

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

To me, their relationship came from nowhere, seemed very random, and stomped on things that'd gone before.
So, yeah.

Yes, it did. I think it was Mantlo's sad attempt to make Heather appear like some liberated, independent woman who could think for herself and finally let go of "rotten" Mac so she could love again. And it failed (at least where I'm at in reading, it fails at feeling genuine). It's gross. I wanted Puck to win. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Overall, I did NOT like it, but there were things in it that I did like.
Sometimes I'm joking, but still telling the truth. :?

I liked the issues with Namor and Marrina and the almost-pustule babies.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

In this case, I don't know either. I just remember having a feeling of relief that they'd retconned away (even vaguely) something I'd hated from the beginning.
Whatever it was may not have been in Mantlo's run.

Yeah, that Wolverine garbage, her thinking Mac created him, betraying her, being just bad, evil Mac, I'm glad that is all done.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

~ Le Messor
"Must I hold a candle to my shames?"

Where do you find these things?

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

I can never tell with you...then you say something that makes me second guess if you are joking or serious. OR? I DO NOT KNOW.

Welcome to MikWorld. ;)

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

It's gross. I wanted Puck to win. *sigh*

As did I. Another reason why I dislike Jeffries so much; he took the place that was rightfully (imo) Puck's.

I found Puck and Heather distasteful.

Eugene was so greatful to Mac for all he'd done for him; the last thing he'd do would be to jump on Heather as soon as he died.

I liked Puck as Heather's rock, like Logan was.

Why can't a man and a woman just be friends?

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Originally Posted by Phil

I found Puck and Heather distasteful.

But you have to understand, that yes, it started during Byrne's run, but it wasn't truthfully established during Byrne's run. I mean, it was obvious that he had feelings for her, and he started to admit it during the talk Shaman had with him, but he still didn't come out and say it. And no, woe-is-me-Heather-could-never-love-a-dwarf thought bubbles yet.

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Originally Posted by Phil

Eugene was so greatful to Mac for all he'd done for him; the last thing he'd do would be to jump on Heather as soon as he died.

Yes, and as I stated, it did start during Byrne's run, but it was still tasteful. He wasn't a woeful, lost puppy dog following her every move. He truly seemed okay with being there for her without other motives pushing him.

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Originally Posted by Phil

I liked Puck as Heather's rock, like Logan was.

Why can't a man and a woman just be friends?

I do agree, but as a broken record, it started during Byrne's run. And it became obvious pretty fast that he had feelings for her, but Mantlo just made it pitiful and awful.

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

As did I. Another reason why I dislike Jeffries so much; he took the place that was rightfully (imo) Puck's.

Well, if we want to be technical, it would have rightfully been Mac's place. :(
If Mac hadn't died.
And if Mantlo hadn't turned his widow into a mindless moron.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

He wasn't a woeful, lost puppy dog following her every move. He truly seemed okay with being there for her without other motives pushing him.

Ugh. Specifically, it was that part that I found offensive in Mantlo's books. Couldn't go one issue without Puck (or Bochs) thinking some variation of "why would she ever look at a useless dwarf/midget/cripple like me?" in regards to whatever woman they were pining for at the time. Brutal.

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Originally Posted by TSOG

Ugh. Specifically, it was that part that I found offensive in Mantlo's books. Couldn't go one issue without Puck (or Bochs) thinking some variation of "why would she ever look at a useless dwarf/midget/cripple like me?" in regards to whatever woman they were pining for at the time. Brutal.

Yesssssssss!
But I find hardly much that hasn't offended me in Mantlo's run.
Heather=completely offensive. As a woman, she totally offends me.
Treatment of Northstar=completely offensive, at different times throughout the run.
Treatment of Aurora=completely offensive. Taking her playful flirtiness and turning her into a crazy, manipulative b!tch is also unforgivable, imo.
Treatment of Puck (and his origins!!!)=WTF OFFENSIVE.
Purple Girl? Does she go away, EVER? Is she ever going to leave this book? I find her initial appearance one of the most offensive things in this series, ever, and honestly, I will never like her. She can piss off. Forever. And take Jeffries with her. Bastids.

And MANIKIN!
They can take Manikin pissing off with them as well. Past, Present, and future selves. They can all screw off out of my books. It cannot happen fast enough.
It DOES happen, right? Eventually?

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Originally Posted by Phil

Why can't a man and a woman just be friends?

Because SEX.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

And MANIKIN!
They can take Manikin pissing off with them as well. Past, Present, and future selves. They can all screw off out of my books. It cannot happen fast enough.
It DOES happen, right? Eventually?

Sadly, no. I wish. I dislike him, very much.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Purple Girl? Does she go away, EVER? Is she ever going to leave this book? I find her initial appearance one of the most offensive things in this series, ever, and honestly, I will never like her. She can piss off. Forever. And take Jeffries with her. Bastids.

Not soon enough, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

Because SEX.

I grew up with a lot of guy friends and never had sex with ANY of them.
It IS possible.
What makes it impossible, if it becomes that way, is that one becomes attracted to the other. That's when things start getting icky and personal and sensitive and bad.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

BUT I FEEL LIKE I DO. OOOOH.

Maybe you feel like you know someone else who only LOOKS like me!

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

were we even talking about with this again?

I was talking about The Princess Bride... don't know about you. :)

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Yeah, that Wolverine garbage, her thinking Mac created him, betraying her, being just bad, evil Mac, I'm glad that is all done.

Brushed aside. As it should be.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Where do you find these things?

I keep a list. :D

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

Because SEX.

I grew up with a lot of guy friends and never had sex with ANY of them.
It IS possible.

Sometimes I think sex is the primary religion of our society. That and science.
People keep talking like it ISN'T possible to be attracted to someone and not have sex with them.

It. Is.

~ Le Messor
"Most people are idiots," said Wimsey, gravely, "but it isn't kind to tell them so. I expect you do tell them so."

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

But you have to understand, that yes, it started during Byrne's run, but it wasn't truthfully established during Byrne's run.

I still found it weird under Byrne's pen.

To give Mantlo some credit, I found Jeffries a better match - Heather came from a big family and it was Madison's fatherly-way with Kara that first attracted her to him.
It was just the way he then went about it that wasn't amazing. As with most things.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Maybe you feel like you know someone else who only LOOKS like me!

That's quite possible. You DO have a common look.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

I was talking about The Princess Bride... don't know about you. :)

I don't even remember.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Brushed aside. As it should be.

Yes, never to be spoken of again.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

I keep a list. :D

Where do you pull them from for your list?

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Sometimes I think sex is the primary religion of our society. That and science.
People keep talking like it ISN'T possible to be attracted to someone and not have sex with them.

It. Is.

It is possible. Seems, though, the natural progression of attraction to one another typically ends up in sex at one time or another.
Unless the two are attracted to each other from a distance. OR they've established they're attracted to each other, but there are other barriers of sorts keeping them from being able to act on their attraction.

But, yes, friends of opposite gender is totally possible and happens all the time.

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Originally Posted by Phil

I still found it weird under Byrne's pen.

I didn't. I thought Byrne wrote it tastefully. It doesn't skeeve me so much that Puck developed feelings for Heather. He was helping her through a rough time. He kept these feelings to himself and didn't act on them. And, most importantly, he didn't down himself (except when he STARTED to during his talk with Shaman).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

To give Mantlo some credit, I found Jeffries a better match - Heather came from a big family and it was Madison's fatherly-way with Kara that first attracted her to him.
It was just the way he then went about it that wasn't amazing. As with most things.

Never give Mantlo ANY credit. That's your mistake right there.:p

Finally see the quote with + sign...

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

I can honestly say I will NEVER read Mantlo's run again. NEVER. I don't care how golden Northstar's snark towards Heather was in the beginning, it's just been an awful ride so far.
And it just keeps getting crazier and making less and less sense.

Unlike me, there are a lot of real die-hard Alphans who stuck through the entire run, real-time [Tawmis is one, I believe], and I agree with Phil: Mantlo's run does get better, once Alpha Flight is comprised (mainly) of his characters. My undying pet-peeve is: the Canadian government is actually going to put its super-hero defense in the hands of (1) a 13-year-old [Purple Girl]; (2) a "doctor" who used to work for Lionel Jeffries, (3) a "strongman" who is supposed to be a biophysicist but doesn't accomplish much [Sasquatch], and; (4) a leader who is delusional. Once DreamQueen is introduced, it does get better.

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Originally Posted by Phil

When Crackity gets past them I'll post a big ol' rant about it ;)

Wow. I would never have thought Phil would rant. Lookin' forward to that.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Ah! They must've been the people that Scramble was keeping in the containers. Got it.

CJ, I remember when you mentioned #52 being the worst issue ever. I really meant to say that's saying something, because there are a lot of issues to choose from. #38 pretty much ties # 52 as the worst issue ever, for me.

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

Unlike me, there are a lot of real die-hard Alphans who stuck through the entire run, real-time [Tawmis is one, I believe], and I agree with Phil: Mantlo's run does get better, once Alpha Flight is comprised (mainly) of his characters. My undying pet-peeve is: the Canadian government is actually going to put its super-hero defense in the hands of (1) a 13-year-old [Purple Girl]; (2) a "doctor" who used to work for Lionel Jeffries, (3) a "strongman" who is supposed to be a biophysicist but doesn't accomplish much [Sasquatch], and; (4) a leader who is delusional. Once DreamQueen is introduced, it does get better.

I was indeed one of the ones who read Alpha Flight, month to month, as it came out. I don't remember it bothering me when I was reading it as it was coming out (other than Puck/Razaar, and it didn't bug me that much other than to say, "WTF? That seems pretty out there!", and then the fate of Snowbird during the Pestilence story). I recall, by the time we got to the Llan the Sorcerer storyline, even back then, I was bothered. Because it seemed so far fetched, and dragged on for so freaking long, it felt like. (The art was also a negative, even back then for me - mostly during, as I have mentioned before, the city scene where everything goes nuts).

But over the years, as I have re-read Alpha Flight (quite a few times), perhaps because I am older and wiser, and not 14 years old whatever - I am more critical of the stories, and see Heather's change as drastic (back when she first took the costume, it did NOT bother me until she killed Snowbird - then, I hated Heather!). I picked up on a lot more things! And more and more things bothered me, as I progressed through the story during these re-readings! (I just made that a word!) Just like when I recently mentioned, I recall initially enjoying V2 when it first came out - when I tried to re-read it a few months ago, I could barely make it through the first issue!

I think I mentioned this on the CBR forums; but back in 1993, I was either naive or the whole being "gay" thing was NOT as common as it is now (or not so openly discussed in 1983/1984) - so I didn't even pick up on Aurora's hints about Northstar's sexuality way back then!

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

That's quite possible. You DO have a common look.

Every time I look in the mirror, I think "Strange, I've seen that face before".

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Where do you pull them from for your list?

Various sources. Movies. Lists that get emailed around to everybody. That kind of thing.
I have three years' worth of quote-a-day calendar on my desk, too.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

OR they've established they're attracted to each other, but there are other barriers of sorts keeping them from being able to act on their attraction.

Which irl is true more often than not; but in fiction, the only barrier is 'I have somebody else'.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

But, yes, friends of opposite gender is totally possible and happens all the time.

'zackly!

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

Finally see the quote with + sign...

Yay you!

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

Mantlo's run does get better, once Alpha Flight is comprised (mainly) of his characters.

I've said there are things I do like in it. For me, it's much less worse in this time.
If nothing else, I'd rather see him invent his own characters than destroy Byrne's.

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

Once DreamQueen is introduced, it does get better.

True, but Mantlo leaves shortly after that. :P

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

Wow. I would never have thought Phil would rant. Lookin' forward to that.

I don't think any of us could have seen THAT coming!

~ Le Messor
Mum: I thought you said you were going to rake the yard today.
Dad: I did rake the yard. I spent all afternoo-- WHERE'S CALVIN?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

Unlike me, there are a lot of real die-hard Alphans who stuck through the entire run, real-time [Tawmis is one, I believe], and I agree with Phil: Mantlo's run does get better, once Alpha Flight is comprised (mainly) of his characters. My undying pet-peeve is: the Canadian government is actually going to put its super-hero defense in the hands of (1) a 13-year-old [Purple Girl]; (2) a "doctor" who used to work for Lionel Jeffries, (3) a "strongman" who is supposed to be a biophysicist but doesn't accomplish much [Sasquatch], and; (4) a leader who is delusional. Once DreamQueen is introduced, it does get better.

Do you guys have exact issue numbers as to when this crap gets better?
I just read #54, and it was horrible. Purple Girl needs to go away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

CJ, I remember when you mentioned #52 being the worst issue ever. I really meant to say that's saying something, because there are a lot of issues to choose from. #38 pretty much ties # 52 as the worst issue ever, for me.

From #52 on has been the worst it has EVER been in AF for me. #53 kind of gets a pass, though, because Heather apologized, in her head, for all the bad things she has thought about Mac.
Her team is still awful.
SHE is still awful.
Now I'm seriously WTFing over the horrible writing. Not just because things are happening that I don't agree with. That aside, it's horrible writing.

Regardless of how awful it has been, I think I am going to try to read 5 more issues tonight. I FINALLY have some reading time, and I want to get this part of the series over with. The closer I can get to getting some of the original members back on the team, the BETTER.
RIGHT?!

Stupid Purple Girl with her cry-it-out moment with Goblyn.
I wouldn't trust Purple Girl with ANYONE.
ohgodicannotSTANDHER.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Stupid Purple Girl with her cry-it-out moment with Goblyn.
I wouldn't trust Purple Girl with ANYONE.
ohgodicannotSTANDHER.

How much have you seen of Goblyn? I actually enjoyed the concept of her character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flightpath07

Me, too. But not so sure that i'd agree about them being ruined.

I think I just had a WILD idea who you mean...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Regardless of how awful it has been, I think I am going to try to read 5 more issues tonight. I FINALLY have some reading time, and I want to get this part of the series over with. The closer I can get to getting some of the original members back on the team, the BETTER.
RIGHT?!

Well... Just keep reading. The DreamQueen is some mandatory reading. Not Byrne level, by any means, but good story telling (and a great character, in design and in general...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

How much have you seen of Goblyn? I actually enjoyed the concept of her character.

I don't have a problem with Goblyn. I actually like Goblyn. One of the only characters that Mantlo has created so far, in this series, that I think actually has potential.

It's Purple Girl I take issue with.
Or, I mean, how she's written.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

Well... Just keep reading. The DreamQueen is some mandatory reading. Not Byrne level, by any means, but good story telling (and a great character, in design and in general...)

When does Dream Queen start?
Wtf, I'll just wiki it. :D

oooh, I only have 1 more issue to read before her first appearance in AF!
Finally! Something is going to happen that may not make me want to curse every member on the team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

I think I just had an... idea who you mean...

If you're right, I'm wrong - but Phil's talk makes more sense.

'cept the guy you mean wasn't really in Nicieza's run, was he? Hmm...
... don't think he was.

I am wondering if Mantlo's run is hitting me so hard because I am reading at least an issue about every day to every other day vs. reading it only once a month like when it was printed?
I'm assuming most of you probably read Mantlo's run when it was fresh, so you were only reading it once a month, right?