Viable property, disrespected team, target of industry hate, cash cow...

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Originally Posted by cmdrkoenig67

He's just saying Puck could be revealed to be a "survivor" and used on the team. We have no confirmation on the actual "deaths", besides Talisman stating that her father was dead and Snowbird claiming that Pointer killed her friends. There is still wiggle room.

Dana

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I think there was an issue of Herc where he was in a bar in the afterlife and Puck (also Marrina) were there.

Close Mreez...It was a casino and those that were there were playing for the chance to get resurrected...Funny that.

Dana

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Originally Posted by cmdrkoenig67

Seems to me Winter Guard is just as burdened by "too much to take in" continuity. Along with the several Red Guardian/Steel Guardians, etc.., Several Darkstars and Crimson Dynamos...There's all the changes the team has had in line-ups and names (Soviet Super Soldiers, Exiles, People's Protectorate, now Winter Guard) and the fact that it's actually two different teams thrown together. They've had just as many different modus operendi, as well...State-serving team of mutants, mutant renegades, State-serving power-mixed team of lackies, etc, etc...

I'm rather disgusted to hear they may do an ongoing...Makes me even more peeved at Marvel. How the heck would Winter Guard have even half of the audience that Alpha Flight would? Alpha has members who are X-Men for Dog's sake (Northstar, Madison and even Wolverine).

Dana

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David Gallaher, WG writer, is active on the Comic Book Resources boards and basically confirmed that Marvel is still testing out the title and that he has plenty of ideas for an ongoing. For their history, most of the characters are blank slates. I just wish someone had a few bright ideas for Alpha

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Originally Posted by cmdrkoenig67

I have no problem with new members...What I do have a problem with is new members that are tacked on ...As much as I liked the characters...Persuasion, Manikin and Goblyn did not fit into Alpha Flight. They belonged on some X-Team.

I certainly don't want the entire original team back as Alpha Flight either...Mac's been killed off more than Jean Grey/Phoenix and I really don't want him back (not to mention, he's been handled quite badly every time he comes back), Puck's origin, his very being has been screwed up majorly and Marrina's fate has been dealt with quite brutally.

I'm being honest here and this will be old news...I LOVE Puck, but he's a flipping mess continuity-wise. As much as I love Bill Mantlo's writing on other series (The Micronauts, Rom, etc...), he destroyed the character. He totally went against what was already established by John Byrne for the character. Puck was and was always supposed to be an actual little person with near-crippling pain because of his condition....NOT because of a stupid demon sorcerer. What made him exception is not demon-possession or super powers, but that he was in pain, short and fought every day to be the best he could be...Mr Mantlo came along and screwed that all up.

I'd really rather Heather be revealed to have survived, as opposed to Puck...She could be the behind-the-scenes leader as she was meant to be, raising her daughter.

I totally disagree with Mokole on Sasquatch...Walter is not a sit on the sidelines guy...He's a former football player and turns into a giant, hulk-level strength super-being...Why relegate him to sitting in a lab somewhere?

I'm also not against a new person wearing the Guardian suit (and called Guardian, not Vindicator), just as long as Michael Pointer is never let near the suit again.

I also believe Northstar, Aurora and Madison would be a heck of a lot safer away from the "mutant massacre waiting-to-happen", that is the X-Men's Utopia. Canada doesn't lock it's mutants up, does it? No, they're just asked to join their superteams and be equal members-in-standing. Having all the mutants in one place is like painting a giant target on the area so it's visible even from orbit...It's a dumb, dumb idea.

I'd love for some older members to reappear, but not necessarily as full-time team members...Snowbird has a "divine" mission and could be a reserve member, Talisman is also on a different path and could be a reservist as well.

As for a whole new line-up...No...It's never going to work.

I don't read Alpha Flight for the name, but for the characters. If not for Heather and Puck, I would have dropped Volume 2 in an instant...Without Walter, there's no way I would have kept reading the steaming pile that was Volume 3...And if Sasquatch and Talisman were absent from Omega Flight...I would never have picked the book up.

Dana

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I really agree with much of what you wrote here. Heather as the head of a new Dept H. Madison could be in a support role too and someone new could go in the Box armor.

Puck as in the original, who had Razaar the immortal in him so long I figure it rubbed off.

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Originally Posted by cmdrkoenig67

I don't read Alpha Flight for the name, but for the characters.

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Exactly! I'd also add, not for the Canadian location, either.

If you're going to bring out an Alpha Flight book, put the Alpha Flight characters in it. Contrariwise, if you're going to bring out a book with all-new characters, don't call it Alpha Flight.

- Le Messor
"Being your age is hard enough without having to act it."
- P.K. Shaw

But why did they get rid of all the original charaters by #50 in volI ? Sure they brought them all back and added new ones and soforth. I can only think of X-Men that went through the same thing. Out with the old in with the new. Avengers and the others all seem to have there core intact. AF dosen't seem to have that by getting rid of everyone. If the charaters were so intersting in the first place, then why did they get rid of them? Now don't go writting and say that I'm blastfamist or something, cause I love the original guys too. I believe there is something true to my statement. Why get rid of them in the first place? Was AF outselling all other Marvel books and they thought "We can't have a Canadian book out sell Captain America!" (That's always been one of my favoret conspiracy theories) and doomed it to fail? Did Bill Mantlo just write from notes that Byrne had left, and could not thinkof anything new?

The location may not be the factor on why we've bought the book, but it dose have something do with it's creation. They've always treated the book with a somekind of "Isolation" factor. Not enough bad guys in Canada. Not enough people with super powers in Canada. Canada has the population of Rhoad Island type of thing. Always stucked to the goverment, and had inquisitions. When AF made apperances in other books they've made it a point to say "We're Canadian." I don't know about my fellow Canucks, but I don't go walking down the street with a big red maple leaf on my back, and saying "I am Canadain" (like the beer add). To me when Marvel did things like this, they were putting the location before the charaters. Only Guardian (Mac & Heather) wore the Canadian emblom, no one else, not untill they got those new uniforms back in # 103 or 104.

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Originally Posted by Alpha Rider

The location may not factor into why we've bought the book, but it does have something do with its creation.

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Okay, I told you before the Canadian setting wasn't why I bought it. To be honest, though, the location did factor in for me - but it had more to do with the fact that it wasn't set in the USA.

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Originally Posted by Alpha Rider

Why get rid of them in the first place? ... Did Bill Mantlo just write from notes that Byrne had left, and could not think of anything new?

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To the best of my knowledge, yes. I believe the story I heard was, Mantlo wanted to write his own original team; he wasn't given the chance, so when he got a team book, he replaced them with his own creations. And as soon as somebody else took over, they started bringing back the originals.

- Le Messor
Xander: "He can come along any minute."
Buffy: "Yeah, and the minute after that, I can terrify him with my alarming strength and remarkable self-involvement."

"Okay, I told you before the Canadian setting wasn't why I bought it. To be honest, though, the location did factor in for me - but it had more to do with the fact that it wasn't set in the USA.
"
But I wasn't refering to why we bought the book, but it's creation. In the 70's Marvel was expanding outside on New York, they put some guys out in San Fransico and L.A. and had additional stories that included some their bigger charters to travelle outside N.Y.C. Spider Man went to France, the Hulk went to Canada, and soforth. This also led to the creation on AF and an on going series. But like said before they've treated this book with an "Isolation" factor. They never were involved in anything big with the other charaters, and the lack of "Big Time" villans were not even there.

"To the best of my knowledge, yes. I believe the story I heard was, Mantlo wanted to write his own original team; he wasn't given the chance, so when he got a team book, he replaced them with his own creations. And as soon as somebody else took over, they started bringing back the originals."

That's a good point. I never thought of that, but how much control did he have on the book? I was always under the impresion that he just wrote the charaters from what Byrne left behind and wrote them til they were no more notes to go on. But I understand that people like the original charaters, but why is evryone so afraid of change? Don't you get tired of reading the same charaters on the same team, over and over, and over again? These are some of the reasons I stopped reading X-Men and Avengers. It got so boaring. at least with AF they had new charaters to learn about. Sure I missed the originals, but I kind of moved on.

Nearly every volume's writer has had to bring back the originals either due to demand or to boost sales and "save" the series, in every case...It was too late.

We (and Marvel execs) have no clue how well or badly an Alpha Flight series will sell with the original Alphans as the stars....Our only example is Byrne's (which sold huge), but nobody has tried it since then. The market being the way it is, AF will never have those numbers again. Omega Flight sold very well, but Marvel execs didn't or wouldn't go for it.

Dana

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Originally Posted by Alpha Rider

"Okay, I told you before the Canadian setting wasn't why I bought it. To be honest, though, the location did factor in for me - but it had more to do with the fact that it wasn't set in the USA."

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Then you're in the small minority that feels that way...I'm not Canadian, neither is Le Messor...yet we don't have a problem with that aspect of Alpha Flight. The writers can't please everybody.

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Originally Posted by Alpha Rider

But I wasn't refering to why we bought the book, but it's creation. In the 70's Marvel was expanding outside on New York, they put some guys out in San Fransico and L.A. and had additional stories that included some their bigger charters to travelle outside N.Y.C. Spider Man went to France, the Hulk went to Canada, and soforth. This also led to the creation on AF and an on going series. But like said before they've treated this book with an "Isolation" factor. They never were involved in anything big with the other charaters, and the lack of "Big Time" villans were not even there.

"To the best of my knowledge, yes. I believe the story I heard was, Mantlo wanted to write his own original team; he wasn't given the chance, so when he got a team book, he replaced them with his own creations. And as soon as somebody else took over, they started bringing back the originals."

That's a good point. I never thought of that, but how much control did he have on the book? I was always under the impresion that he just wrote the charaters from what Byrne left behind and wrote them til they were no more notes to go on. But I understand that people like the original charaters, but why is evryone so afraid of change? Don't you get tired of reading the same charaters on the same team, over and over, and over again? These are some of the reasons I stopped reading X-Men and Avengers. It got so boaring. at least with AF they had new charaters to learn about. Sure I missed the originals, but I kind of moved on.

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I've already answered those questions.

Dana

I was trying to use a quote from Le Messor. As for me it was cool to have a book set in Canada. But did you ever feel that when they were writting the book they were being too pushy with the fact they were from Canada? or I the only one who has notice this?

I don't think it was pushy; they referred to Canadian places et al but it's like saying Captain Britain was pushy about it being in Britain.

The Canadian aspect got me to read it but not keep reading, it had to be more than just Canadian. I liked a lot of the characters (Box, Windshear, Nemesis, Feedback,....) and have liked more since.

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Originally Posted by marvelboy74

There are enough Alpha characters that they could relaunch the team. Not only Liz and Walt, but bring back Madison and JP from the X-Men, and you still have Jeanne-Marie, Kara, Kyle and possibly Flashback out there. New characters could be introduced too. Sad part is that Marvel doesn't want to create a place for them, instead now pumping out nearly as many Avenger books as X-books. Then again, Captain Britain & MI 13 flopped as well and they went with a more mystical avenue that Alpha always had.

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Kyle? Oh, you didn't get the memo... Kyle was killed by Omega Red, not available for the team.

Love,
rplass

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Originally Posted by Alpha Rider

I was trying to use a quote from Le Messor. As for me it was cool to have a book set in Canada. But did you ever feel that when they were writting the book they were being too pushy with the fact they were from Canada? or I the only one who has notice this?

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I apologize, Alpha Rider...I misread the quote (apologies also to Mik). No, I don't think I've ever felt a writer pushed the "Canada-ness" too far...The worst offender I can think of, was the person who wrote the solicits for Volume 3.

Dana

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Originally Posted by rplass

Kyle? Oh, you didn't get the memo... Kyle was killed by Omega Red, not available for the team.

Love,
rplass

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Whoops. I guess there is no hope for Alpha then.

Thers always hope.Maybe bring them from one of the worlds that they were on in the Exiles series.

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Originally Posted by cmdrkoenig67

(apologies also to Mik)

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No probs.

- Le Messor
"He fell for her like his heart was a mob informant and she was the East River."
~ Brian Broadus, bad novel openings competition

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Originally Posted by Alpha Rider

"Okay, I told you before the Canadian setting wasn't why I bought it. To be honest, though, the location did factor in for me - but it had more to do with the fact that it wasn't set in the USA.
"
...But like said before they've treated this book with an "Isolation" factor. They never were involved in anything big with the other charaters, and the lack of "Big Time" villans were not even there.

The Mantlo era is still a sore point with me, but one thing that happened was Alpha Flight was tied more closely to the Marvel Universe in the first year: fought the Hulk (AF# 29), appearance of The X-Men (#33) and Wolverine with the 1st appearance of Lady Deathstrike (#s 33 & 34), the astral form of Dr. Strange (# 36), fighting alongside The Avengers (# 39), and guest-starring The Sub-Mariner for most of the year. Attuma may not have been the biggest bad guy, but he sure was a pain-in-the-neck.

"To the best of my knowledge, yes. I believe the story I heard was, Mantlo wanted to write his own original team; he wasn't given the chance, so when he got a team book, he replaced them with his own creations. And as soon as somebody else took over, they started bringing back the originals."

That's a good point. I never thought of that, but how much control did he have on the book? I was always under the impresion that he just wrote the charaters from what Byrne left behind and wrote them til they were no more notes to go on. But I understand that people like the original charaters, but why is evryone so afraid of change? Don't you get tired of reading the same charaters on the same team, over and over, and over again? These are some of the reasons I stopped reading X-Men and Avengers. It got so boaring. at least with AF they had new charaters to learn about. Sure I missed the originals, but I kind of moved on.

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The interpretation of the Alpha Flight characters during the Mantlo era was much different from the way they were originally presented. Puck's protrayal is a prime example of the misinterpretation, although what was done to Michael, Narya, and Elizabeth was a travesty, too. I've mentioned this before, but AF was conveyed as STUPID, for no one in their right mind would have considered Lionel Jeffries their only hope, especially when there were other (better) doctors they could've gone to [like Doc Sampson].

I doubt that one person was the cause of the radical, forced re-envisioning of AF during the Mantlo era.

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

I doubt that one person was the cause of the radical, forced re-envisioning of AF during the Mantlo era.

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Not even Bill Mantlo?

- Le Messor
"He laughed at every joke three times - when he heard it, when it was explained to him, and when he understood it."

I guess Mantlo was the first of the Seven Deadly Sins, then came the others that just killed of AF.

I may have said this before...But as much as I love Bill's work on Micronauts, Rom, etc...I hated what he did in Alpha Flight. IMHO, He shot Alpha Flight in the kneecaps, stabbed them in the heart and then lopped off their heads...He certainly destroyed Puck's origin and nearly ruined the twins...Making them elves was minor compared to him wanting to write Northstar as having AIDS, thank the gods editorial stopped him from doing it. Mantlo also had Heather kill Snowbird, he had Bochs go insane and killed him off as well. I don't fault him for the emotional mess between Talisman and Shaman, as that was left brewing when Byrne left the book...However, having Shaman so casually just put on the Talisman's circlet of power was insanely stupid....He shouldn't have been able to, it wasn't meant for him to wear...Only Elizabeth or her ancestors would be worthy...It was obvious, That Mr Mantlo either didn't research these characters or he didn't give a crap what he did with them.

I understand he may have wanted to use his own characters in a book (Persuasion, Manikin, Goblyn or whoever else), but why did he have to choose Alpha Flight to do it in (destroying what was there to make room for his own creations). If he didn't want to use the established characters in Alpha Flight, then he never should have agreed to trade books with Byrne...Marvel should have chosen somebody else to take the book over, when John wanted to leave.

Dana

You are preachin to the choir Dana!

Digger

Yeah!
'cept the bit about Talisman's ancestors... I think you mean the previous Talismi?
'coz her father would be an ancestor. Technic'ly.

- Le Messor
"He taught us drawing, stretching, and fainting in coils."

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Originally Posted by SNOWCHILD

I just think Mantlo was brilliant, because he kept them fairly mysterious and "WEIRD". In my mind, Alpha Flight = superhero weirdness. In a cool way, don't get me wrong.

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I agree. Being mysterious is a good thing for any future Flight. You never want to reveal all the secrets, but keep people guessing - that is what drives interest, and sales. It is what Volume 2 tried to do - whether it failed because the plug got pulled too early on it is a moot point, but still one that can be pondered in hindsight.

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Originally Posted by Alpha Rider

The point I'm trying to make is that they had to start somewhere. All the charaters had to start from somewhere. You didn't care how old or new the charaters were, you just liked them. I'd like to see the original line up as well, but given the way comic book charaters seem to come back from the dead, it takes away from the inital impact of their demise, to only have someone say: "He'll be back sometime soon". Sure it would nice to see them in action, but it wouldn't be the same. Maybe these charaters have ran there course as far as developing them? A friend of mine would not watch Star Trek TNG because Captain Kirk and the others were not in it. He started to watch some of the show in reruns about 10 years ago, and it didn't take him too long before he really got into it and couldn't get enough of it. The same with DS9, and Voyager.

Of course I'm conpairing real live actors to drawn fictional charaters, but I believe the premise is still the same. How many times can you beat a dead horse? Mac didn't want the roll, but put himself into it. Heater wanted to pull her own on the team. Mac II was made for the roll and wasn't given a choice. Pointer was forced into it. There is a bit of a trend going on here, the Guardian suit was pushed on to everyone who wore it. Do something different. Make someone earn it.

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"How many times can you beat a dead horse?"

Thunder joke, anyone?

"Kyle? Oh, you didn't get the memo... Kyle was killed by Omega Red, not available for the team."

Nobody stays dead in the comics...

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Yeah!
'cept the bit about Talisman's ancestors... I think you mean the previous Talismi?
'coz her father would be an ancestor. Technic'ly.

- Le Messor
"He taught us drawing, stretching, and fainting in coils."

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Whoops...Sorry Mik...I meant her future descendants, not ancestors...Since the line skipped Michael, I'm guessing either Elizabeth's children or grandchildren would also be worthy of the circlet. I apologize for choosing the wrong word (I really have no idea how I screwed that up).

Dana

Meh. Just so we understand now.

- Le Messor
"He who hesitates is sometimes saved."

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Not even Bill Mantlo?

- Le Messor
"He laughed at every joke three times - when he heard it, when it was explained to him, and when he understood it."

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I guess I should've said "...just one person..."

The 1st year helped tie Alpha Flight more closely to the Marvel universe, but the character assassination also began. Year 2 (#s 40 through 51) got rid of most of the Byrne characters in the most d(e)spicable manner I've ever read. The series should've been put on hiatus if this was the best that Marvel was going to do with them. Although I consider it the Mantlo era because the writer gets credit for the direction of a series and its tone, how can anyone blame the writer for publishing a book and/or pages out of sequence [Northstar references a kiss by Pestilence (in #43) that happens in the following issue (in # 44)]?

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

How can anyone blame the writer for publishing a book and/or pages out of sequence [Northstar references a kiss by Pestilence (in #43) that happens in the following issue (in # 44)]?

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It's possible, however unlikely, that he wrote it that way - but you're probably right, it was most likely a careless error. (Careless as in, they just didn't care.)

- Le Messor
"He who is flogged by fate and laughs the louder is a masochist."