Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
- Le Messor
"Ignorant?! Ha! I don't even know the meaning of the word!"
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Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
- Le Messor
"Ignorant?! Ha! I don't even know the meaning of the word!"
I wonder how much of that comes from his Age of Apocalypse appearances and whatnot, as he is 'literally' Sabretooth's lapdog in those issues. I think those appearances, more than any other, ruined his credibility forever; doesn't matter that they take place in another universe/reality/whatever, as the people see them and then associate the character of Wild Child with them (as he wasn't really being used anywhere else at the time that would get him more, and better, publicity).Quote:
'Sides, most fans I've seen online HATE Wildchild now, and not in the good 'love to hate that bastard' way that Sabertooth tends to enjoy, they think he's a lame Mini-Sabe with a bad Hot Topic makeover, and that his sudden overpowered status is uncalled for and remains unjustified and unexplained. It's embarrassing, and I doubt I'll ever see anything good done with him ever again, if Marvel is sticking with this version of him.
Without the Age of Apocalypse appearances though he'd never have become a part of X-Factor so I think they worked out well.
Nope. They were specifically talking about Loeb and Way's run. I think the only ones who see 616 Wildchild as the same as AoA Wildchild are jaded editors who want to capitalize on the popularity of the AoA universe. Though they committed economic suicide letting some douche kill a whole bunch of the AoA characters off all at once recently, including AoA Wildchild.
Funny enough, I've had conversations with people who liked AoA Wildchild because he was mini sabes in a lovable way, while despising 616 Wildchild because they saw Loeb's version as a lame replacement for Sabretooth. And I agree with them. This isn't Wildchild to me, but then, who IS Wildchild at this point?
Shame how it turned out though. I loved him when he first joined, regardless of identity crisis issues. But boy did they **** things up as soon as the creative team changed. His look was perfect at that time, too... he LOOKED like Weapon Omega, slowly reverting to the way Wildchild originally looked. I just wish the writer had focused more on the trauma of slowly turning back into the insane monster who killed people and the horror of what was done to him instead of making it a superficial thing about not wanting to be ugly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Interesting thing I noticed; for Wildchild's last appearance in X-Factor, the Editor who had brought him to that book was the editor again, just for that one issue, not the idiot who said he's 16. At least someone loved him.
I don't fully think Loeb/Way/Aaron's Wildchild is the greatest (or the greatest design) but it fits in with his original Byrne persona more than the Lobdell version did, and I feel it's a better use than the depowered version after M-Day.
We hardly got to know Byrne's Wildchild, though. He was a fantastic character design, but what little we saw of him was while he was under a type of mind control. So we know he was smart, and feral, but we don't know if he was really a bad guy or just Courtney's victim like Lil. Him and Lil seemed pretty friendly at least, which makes me think he was at least sociable some of the time, and then there's that retcon later where Madison says they were best buddies before the flight program was disbanded. And you're ignoring all the character development that happened between Byrne Era and Post-M-Day. His history is convoluted, but there were some lovable parts. Now he has no depth, they treat him as filler. Just something for Wolverine to beat up again.
I'm not ignoring everything between Byrne and M-Day, I just mean that to me the Loeb/Way/Aaron version that's slightly feral yet smart, cunning and intelligent enough to beat Wolverine in a fight (cos let's not forget that in Wolverine:Evolution and Wolverine Origins #38 Wildchild beats Wolverine. It's Omega Red that kills him in #39.) is more in line with Byrne's version than Lobdell's heroic and handsome Weapon Omega was.
The feral but smart part is in line with Byrne's Wildchild, I'll agree to that. His skill is actually in line with Weapon Omega/Wild Heart, technically.
I miss all the character development that made him a deeply conflicted and interesting character who fans could sympathise with, though. I took Romulus' henchman Wildchild as being more manipulation and mind control techniques at work. I have to at least credit Tieri with establishing that Wildchild is so damaged that others can shape his identity easily. (yes, I just said Tieri did something right. Hell hath frozen over.) Though that is tragic as ****. At least that leaves an out for anyone who wants to redeem him.
I always found that version - the original and best - to be unique and interesting; a wild, Wolverine-style character with claws and presumably a healing factor, who looked different, but in a real-world plausible way; and most of all who, despite all this, was eloquent and verbose.Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
Everyone since has ignored all that and made him just another of those Wolverine clones that cropped up all over the place in the 90s. (I mean that in terms of how he was written, not a literal clone).
- Le Messor
Debbie Jellinsky: I'll be leaving the country very soon.
Ticket Agent: Will you be traveling alone?
Debbie Jellinsky: Yes, I'll be a widow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d-aWMQuoS4Quote:
not a literal clone
I'll agree with you on that wholeheartedly. I think any writer who cares about his craft could easily bring back Byrne's Wildchild and simply amalgamate most of the different personas he's had into aspects of who he is. They could easily go sympathetic villain or redeem him into a hero. He's naturally have a lot of the type of rebelliousness, edginess, snark, and wit that people like as a result of his history, without it being forced. (unlike Marina)Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
Attachment 2553 Attachment 2554 Attachment 2555
I really need to do a FINISHED drawing of him. But boy is he fun to doodle.
Hey! Nice art!
Yeah, it'd be so easy to do it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
And, like FP: Nice art!
- Le Messor
"Ignorance transcends architecture."
~ James Gaskin
ES, you got some real skills there! Not only do you need to finish a drawing of Wild Child, but you should do so SOON, and then post it here immediately, if not send it directly to Marvel with your job application. I'd buy a one-shot Wild Child Special with you as artist!
Double post. sorry. The website likes to log me out every time I try to submit a post, an image, etc.
Aw, thank you! I'm still working on things like anatomy, drawing people from different angles, interactions of anatomy in scenes, page layout... I've got a ways to go before I could pencil professionally. I might apply for an inking position, though... I've gotten pretty fast at that.
BTW, what became of Romulus? Did Wolverine kill him or is he still lurking in the shadows? I mean, when Wildchild came back into the picture as his henchman, his identity seemed pretty defined by his status as Romulus' favorite, or at least it seemed that way from what I could find online in blogs and on 4chan. Weather or not Romulus is still in the picture could effect a lot now that Wildchild isn't dead (with no explanation).
This thread has made me go back and re-read Amazing Heroes #76 and the article bout the Byrne/Mantlo switch...
It's strange how even then, Byrne's almost-venom comes out in his words with regards to what he wanted to do with the title... and how some of Mantlo's ideas seemed really good on paper and some, even then, seemed doomed to fail...
Completely tangential I know...
Romulus is currently in a shadow-dimension (or something) via Cloak (of Cloak & Dagger) and chances are he'll be back in Loeb's follow up arc.Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
Wildchild was never shown as dead, it was just assumed, so him being back doesn't need explaining and there's a chance that Aaron put him in the background in Sabretooth's party because Loeb plans on using him, so wanted to remind people he was still about/show he was alive.
I've not read it, but it sounds interesting!Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Cloak accesses the Dark Force dimension (like a lot of Marvel characters - there was even a crossover based on it), so that's probably it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Wasn't he dumped in molten steel?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
That's not the kind of thing you walk away from, and Lord knows I've tried.
- Le Messor
"I have opinions of my own - strong opinions - but I don't always agree with them."
~ George Bush
Yeah, but at this point in time he had an artificial modified healing factor that rivalled Wolverine's and we've seen him heal from worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
'tis only a flesh wound!Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Ugh. More of that tripe, huh? Great.
Wildchild was shown being engulfed by molten metal. He has never had a healing factor on par with Wolverine or Sabretooth. That's on-pannel death. Damn skippy I want a better explanation than 'lol power up' and 'he never died'. These writers are terrible.
In his original incarnation, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
As of Wolverine #53 after being artifically powered by Romulus, yes.
Wolverine #53 being after M-Day where he lost his powers and was completely human(New Excalibur #9).
See, my issue is with all of the above. lol Depowering him was stupid since Marvel has always played up the 'is he Sabretooth's bastard son' mystery. Over powering him isn't an improvement, ether. I hate all these immortal feral mutants. How boring is it to read stories where no one need fear for their mortality, and you know none of them will really die? These characters have become completely unrelateable thanks to a bunch of writers who write like 12 year old WWE enthusiasts. This is like the world's worst fanfic round robin. "Ha, I killed off one of your guys, lol." "Screw you, he's immortal now he can't die""Oh yeah, well Wolverine is ten times more powerful than a whole room full of immortal villains now, and beats them all up! So there!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
LAME. It would have been a blessing for Wildchild to be de-powered. I'd rather read a story about former mutants dealing with this change in their lives, and see how he handles it since it was the source of so much suffering, though I imagine he would still be insane and institutionalized for years to get his life back, the poor ****er. I want a story with some heart written by people who care about the characters and who develop them further. Not a reenactment of some kid's Overpower session.
Couldn't agree more with you! There is nothing more boring than immortality! I love characters that are weak, have fears and flaws. That's what makes them relateable to me. I had to outline the same thing to a player in a RPG game I played, in which her character can do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. And even with my characters explaining that people love flaws, etc... she still continued to write as if he character was God (and more!). Boooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnggg ggggggggg!Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
LOL! That's perfect!Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
That would've been interesting, but I don't know of anywhere they paid more than lip service to that idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
New Warriors, the in-name-only v3? It seemed to kind of cover that but not really explore it.
Hey! I resemble that remark!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sypes
It depends how it's handled; Highlander is one of my favourite movies.
- Le Messor
"Ignore previous fortune."
Generation M skirted with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
That's my main problem with online writing RPG. You always run into the dick who wants to godmode or be a Marry Sue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sypes
As for stories about depowered mutants, I know they've dealt with some of that in X-Factor. I really want to get caught up, I got some at a convention and was blown away by the story telling, even if Rhane's state in that book kills me to see. Imagine if Wildchild, mute and depowered, had ended up in that book. Oh god damn, the possabilities.
Oh good Lord, are you RP-ing with my daughter?! lol.Quote:
I had to outline the same thing to a player in a RPG game I played, in which her character can do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.
Peter David's an excellent writer - and my vote for the guy who should write AF.Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
Though if you refer to Rahne being pregnant, I couldn't agree more.
- Le Messor
Spike: "I'll bloody kill you."
Buffy: What are you going to do, lick me to death?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
It would be amazing.
Yeah... Rahne got pregnant in a story outside of David's X-Factor, though, right? I'm missing a lot. It's also her personality at the beginning of the series. Once again, not David's fault, he's just respecting the continuity of what others did with her, which I appreciate. I only wish he'd do more to try to fix what they broke, though. I hate the new persona. And I do have to call him out on making her seem religiously intolerant what with her 'you're going to hell for being gay' bit, which was OOC. This girl has met how many gods besides the one she warships? She used to always worry about sinfulness, but believed in a loving god and redemption, and was respectful of others' lifestyles. She loved her powers and talked about how she wanted to turn into a wolf and leave society forever in New Mutants. ****ing Marvel. Ok, I get you writers are all a bunch of jaded atheists and agnostics... so am I... but the depiction of religiously devout people in comics has reached the point of being extremely bigoted and marginalizing in it's self, perhaps as an over reaction to the Fundamentalist bigotry in our real world that is over represented in the media's coverage.
I don't know. It's something I've only heard about.Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
Comics writers don't seem to get, though, that there are people who *gasp* don't have sex! And if anybody would wait until marriage, it's Rahne, who's always been a stereotyped repressed character.
Thank you! I've felt marginalised by comics for a long time (but I'm Christian, and therefore biased - it's kind of vindicating for me when people without that bias seem to agree).Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
- Le Messor
"Ignoranus: A person who's both stupid and an *******"
She joyrides in a warship with God? That's AWESOME!Quote:
This girl has met how many gods besides the one she warships?
hahah, can't guarantee she is or isn't your daughter haha. However, since I play Northstar in the RPG, I'm able to take stabs at her character regularly hahah. So if it is your daughter, tell her to make her character die and create a better one, will u? hahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
I don't think it's even that. I think they just thought it would be an interesting way to torture the character. I'm pretty sure it happened in X-Force or something, when Rahne left X-Factor for awhile. I'm pretty sketchy on the details. She had sex with a wolf god basically, an old friend from her New Mutants days who wanted her to not be fearful or hateful of her powers... though, uh, wasn't she already past that? And how does knocking up the very very conservative Catholic girl help the situation? Then she had to worry about not only her soul but weather or not giving birth to a demigod would kill her in the process, etc. I need to find out which writer did that to her so he can go on my 'do not read' list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
It was bad enough when Moira, another favorite character of mine, was killed off just to make Rahne into a bitter angsty biker chick or some stupid ****. Another plot I'm sketchy on the details of, but seriously Why? Just why...?
I'm sure I'm not the only one.Quote:
Thank you! I've felt marginalised by comics for a long time (but I'm Christian, and therefore biased - it's kind of vindicating for me when people without that bias seem to agree).
- Le Messor
"Ignoranus: A person who's both stupid and an *******"
I want characters to have different perspectives coming from different cultural and religious backgrounds. That creates a world that is deep and diverse and believable. I loved Rahne because she was this oppressed abused little girl who was strong enough not to let what was done to her change her heart or what she believes in her heart. She was an example of what a good Christian should be. She always tried to follow her religion strictly, and always tried to be a moral voice. Yet she never was the sort to cast the first stone, denigrate other's beliefs they hold just as dear, or preach damnation. Presumably she knew what it was like to have faith wielded as a weapon against you, and would not use it to cut others down. Even David gets this wrong now, as good as he is, and makes her sound like some backwater Born Again Fundamentalist. She's pretty much not even the same character. It sucks so bad.
I loved that there was this character who was so chaste and traditional, but totally relateable. I didn't even see her as sexually oppressed, because I could understand where she was coming from and respect her for it. It's not like she didn't think about boys, romance, how she's percieved by the opposite sex... she was actually very normal in New Mutants thru X-Factor v1 with regards to that. She simply didn't believe in frivolousness or sex outside of wedlock. What a novel idea. I really enjoyed that.
Marvel and their writers are in a death spiral of self-influence and market analysis of an increasingly a small fan base who are becoming reduced to a small demographic who are satisfied with more of the same. Just look at AF v4. Formulaic.
Sypes, can you link me? I want in, if you don't mind, that is.
That is quite different than how I remember Rahne back in the New Mutants days. While perhaps not intolerant, she was definitely judgemental. Plus, while she have met many gods, but I don't believe she ever believed them to be any relation to (her) God. I also remember her saying/thinking that the beast within her and the urges she felt condemned her, and that she was cursed. Of course, this wasn't helped by what's-his-name...Reverent Craemer? The fire and brimstone priest that raised her.Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
Of course, I haven't read any of the old New Mutants in about 20 years, so I may be misremembering.
But I do agree that her getting pregnant? Way out of character. Of course, I knew several religious girls (one of them a pastor's daughter) in high school who became "out of character" themselves.
She dealt with those feelings early on, yes, due to Reverand Craig. I remember her bringing up that things are 'sinful', but she never condemned her friends... she was a socially awkward religious girl expressing her fear of sin. She did strugle with her feelings about her powers again in X-Factor a couple of times... one being when she was turned into a sort of mutate trapped part way in wolf form in Genoshia, the other when she got carried away in a battle and accidentaly killed her target. But she had the moral support of her friends and Moira, and recovered from those situations. In Excalibre she confronted Reverend Craig about what he did to her, how she strugled with her self esteme and fear of damnation because of him, and what an evil hypocrit he is for using her love of God to hurt her. She made him cry. It was a really great issue, without resorting to violence and shock factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Eberly
So what does Marvel do? They take away her support structure and cook up fresh new horrors to subject her to, including mind control and canibalism (it is implied she ate Reverand Craig), so that they can make her an edgy character who doesn't hesitate to kill and so that they can re-hash her fear for her soul and spiritual insicurity all over again, even though that was dealt with and resolved a long time ago.
I know religious people can change, but Rahne was a unique and possitive character who was taken away from us to be turned into a typical bitter feral mutant with violent urges, beast within, already damned, yadda yadda yadda. If they wanted a guy struggling with canibalism and violent urges, etc, the writers had guys like Wildchild who has been needing to deal with what he is. Why do that to Rahne?
Be reasonable! You can't expect Marvel to have reasonable characters acting in different, non-generic ways, can you?
Each and every one has to be edgy and cool, so you can tell the edgy and cool ones by the oh look a distraction!
- Le Messor
Xander: I'll have you know I was just accosted by some kind of, uh, locker monster.
Giles: Loch Ness Monster?
Buffy: Locker. Monster. Is what he said.
Or equally DC or Image etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor