Hulk - Mayan Rule

I'm not going further in the above posts any further, but since gamma was only used to open a mystical gateway (for Tanaraq to bleed through) there should be no reason a person can manipulate the gamma radiation. Also the fact he is in Snowbird's body, which never went through that experiment. Also in Vol.1 Pestilence and Talisman controlled Sasquatch saying he was a Great Beast several times. You guys are using statements that were even proven wrong later on in Vol.1 and in other series.

Also the Fantastic Four askes Walter to join as he had an expertise on radiation, which he does. Not because he bombards himself with gamma radiation. There are real world humans that are called for their knowledge of radiation to assist in a case study, doesnt mean they expose themselves to radiation it means they know the field.

How could you guys not think Tanaraq made him into his avatar? It's the exact same situation with Tundra and Snowbird's father. He looked exactly like Tundra, but wasn't really Tundra.

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Originally Posted by -K-M-

How could you guys not think Tanaraq made him into his avatar? It's the exact same situation with Tundra and Snowbird's father. He looked exactly like Tundra, but wasn't really Tundra.

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I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that, K-M.

If he can manipulate gamma radiation in the Hulk, that's just a mistake.

- Le Messor
"If you thought yesterday was bad, wait till you see what happens today."

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Originally Posted by -K-M-

there should be no reason a person can manipulate the gamma radiation.

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I'm at a loss as to where this is coming from.
I haven't seen manipulation mentioned anywhere.
If it has been, I apologise.

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Also the fact he is in Snowbird's body, which never went through that experiment.

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Again, I agree with you.

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You guys are using statements that were even proven wrong later on in Vol.1 and in other series.

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Proven wrong or retconned?

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There are real world humans that are called for their knowledge of radiation to assist in a case study, doesnt mean they expose themselves to radiation it means they know the field.

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That's true; it doesn't mean they do.
However it has been shown that Walter did.
It's since been written/retconned/whatever that the exposing himself to radiation had nothing to do with Sasquatch.
That's fine, again I never stated that it did, but it doesn't erase that fact that he still exposed himself to it. At least in his body.

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Also the Fantastic Four askes Walter to join as he had an expertise on radiation, which he does. Not because he bombards himself with gamma radiation. There are real world humans that are called for their knowledge of radiation to assist in a case study, doesnt mean they expose themselves to radiation it means they know the field.

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Ack. Now that I had a chance to open the issue and look again, i see you are right; my bad. I know I saw/read something just recently, though, that said that Langkowski DID bombard himself with massive amounts of gamma rays. As i cannot come up with where, however, I''ll drop it and concede the point to you.

UPDATED: Machine Man issue 18: "Years ago, Dr. Walter Langkowski discovered that he was one of an infinitessimaly small percentage of the earth's population who would not have a fatal reaction to gamma radiation! Through controlled irradiation, he could achieve awesome power...Intense mental concentration triggers his gamma altered thyroid! His body hair takes on a golden hue...and thickens! His muscles bulge with incredible strength, and..Sasquatch walks the earth!"

So, after finding and reading this, I stand by my original thoughts. Any mention of Sasquatch NOT being subjected to gamma radiation, and THAT being the cause of his transformation into Sasquatch, is incorrect, and is a "retconned hatchet job" (my own words). It was not in sticking to the true character design. Walter Langkowski was supposed to be Sasquatch, because he was subjected to gamma radiation. That was how he was originally written, both by his creator, John Byrne, and by Tom DeFalco in the issue quoted above, dated December of 1980.

I haven't read the Hulk issue(s) yet, but have no problem with them mentioning something that is keeping with hpw the character was originally written and meant to be. Unfortunately, people changing written history, and then other people changing it back, happens all the time in comics.

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

Any mention of Sasquatch NOT being subjected to gamma radiation, and THAT being the cause of his transformation into Sasquatch, is incorrect, and is a "retconned hatchet job" (my own words). It was not in sticking to the true character design. Walter Langkowski was supposed to be Sasquatch, because he was subjected to gamma radiation. That was how he was originally written, both by his creator, John Byrne, and by Tom DeFalco in the issue quoted above, dated December of 1980.

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Well, K-M is right in that it was Byrne's "retconned hatchet job"; he was originally written as a gamma-powered creature (à là Hulk), but the actual cause of his transformation into Sasquatch is that he became linked to Tanaraq.

He clearly bombarded himself with gamma radiation in his origin in #11; note all his talk about "My intent: to recreate, under controlled conditions, the circumstances which produced the Hulk." and then bombards himself with gamma radiation.

However, in #23, Narya's parents tell her to "Look now upon the form and substance of one of the Last Seven, of the Great Beasts." - and it's Sasquatch. (btw, that answers another controversy we've had - are there only seven Great Beasts? There are now. Which pretty much puts me in the wrong on that one.)

Snowbird repeats his talk of wanting to duplicate the Banner Hulk experiment, then: "At first it seemed that he had been successful... But I now know it was not transformation so much as transposition. Langkowski unleashed for a fraction of a second enough physical energy to sunder the mystical barrier that holds the Great Beasts."

So here's why everybody in this argument is right:
Walt's Sasquatch origin did begin with him bombarding himself with gamma radiation.
However, that bombardment didn't create a new Hulk, but instead opened up a doorway for a mystical creature.

Gamma radiation is the origin of his getting the power, but not the source of the power.
If it hadn't been for Tanaraq, he'd likely have been another Hulk.

So, if he were still in his original body (which he isn't), the way Marvel physics work, he could still be emitting gamma radiation.

I think I left sense behind a couple of paragraphs ago.

- Le Messor
"If you want the rainbow, you got to put up with the rain."

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

So here's why everybody in this argument is right:
Walt's Sasquatch origin did begin with him bombarding himself with gamma radiation.
However, that bombardment didn't create a new Hulk, but instead opened up a doorway for a mystical creature.

Gamma radiation is the origin of his getting the power, but not the source of the power.
If it hadn't been for Tanaraq, he'd likely have been another Hulk.

So, if he were still in his original body (which he isn't), the way Marvel physics work, he could still be emitting gamma radiation.

I think I left sense behind a couple of paragraphs ago.

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I think you make perfect sense and can happily agree with everything you've put there.

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Originally Posted by Phil

I'm at a loss as to where this is coming from.
I haven't seen manipulation mentioned anywhere.
If it has been, I apologise.
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Alpha Flight #2, Vol.4
"Quasar-level gamma rays concentrated the Hulk-stuff in Sasquatch's cells converted him to human form"

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...pg06-7copy.jpg

Gamma manipulation reverted Walter back to human, however, I strongly believe there must have been something else that happened as there was a drawing of Tanaraq in Ranark's cave in AF #3 Vol.4 and he mentioned the Great Beasts were going to return but in the series they never did.

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Originally Posted by -K-M-

Alpha Flight #2, Vol.4
"Quasar-level gamma rays concentrated the Hulk-stuff in Sasquatch's cells converted him to human form"

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...pg06-7copy.jpg

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That's true.
I was thinking specifically about Hulk #53 so had put Vol. 4 out of my mind, so I apologise for that.
(I still however think that had Banner not undergone the accident then Walter would never have attempted to copy it and thus never opened the portal so for that reason I personally can still understand/overlook the line in #53, but that's just me and I'm not trying to force it upon anyone)

I think the issue with Volume 4 is that if they focused on the Tanaraq connection the Sasquatch would essentially just become Snowbird-lite and thus rendered pointless so they glossed over that side.
Plus, other than us here I'd imagine no other readers remember Walt is in Snowbird's body and had they spent time explaining that it'd just waste space and lose readers even quicker than they did.

So/However, the line *could* be explained via two ways:-

A) Brown was a minion of The Master, brainwashed by Unity ( and wasn't a genius or scientist to start with) so was just running with whichever line The Master fed him, and gamma had nothing to do with the transformation and it was all Great Beadt related, like you noted

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I strongly believe there must have been something else that happened as there was a drawing of Tanaraq in Ranark's cave in AF #3 Vol.4 and he mentioned the Great Beasts were going to return but in the series they never did.

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(The fact that The Master used The Great Beasts as a reason for Snowbird being taken down but not Sas makes my thinking here slightly iffy though, which brings us to...)

OR

B)

I hate to bring up this card as canon.

I really hate to bring this card up as canon.

Alpha Flight Volume 3 Issue 12.
Last page.
Last two panels.

Walt is shown experimenting on himself, and while I don't have the issue to hand I believe the line is something along the lines of 'Langkowski goes back to his favourite pasttime, experimenting on himself again' (very rough remembering)

Now the only time we've seen Walt experiment on himself before it was with Gamma, back in Vol.1 #11.
So it's not a leap to assume that he's doing the same here.
We could also infer from this that he was experimenting on himself with Gamma circa Deadpool #1 & AF Vol. 2 (I don't have the issues to hand, but while it wasn't stated he was, it wasn't stated he wasn't so we have a handbook-style loophole of canon)

This could also explain/strengthen how he survived The Collective.

Going with this, Walt is still in Snowbird's original body, and Tanaraq is still the source of his power and the reason behind his transformation BUT he also still has Gamma cells in his body, which while not doing anything due to Walt being immune to radiation are still present in his body and can be manipulated by The Master and sensed by The Mayan Gods.

That sound like a feasible compromise?

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Originally Posted by Phil

Walt is shown experimenting on himself, and while I don't have the issue to hand I believe the line is something along the lines of 'Langkowski goes back to his favourite pasttime, experimenting on himself again' (very rough remembering)

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First panel: Walt, hooked up to machines, about to press a button.
Caption: "Dr. Walter Langkowski has since returned to his lab where he continues to push the boundarties of biotechnology, using his favorite subject."
Next panel, something like lightning striking a lab in the Arctic. Speech bubble: "Whoops."

See? All of this is a perfect lead-in for Marvel to do an AF miniseries about....the Beta Project! Once and for all, our very own, Canadian super-hero project, not a shoehorned Project Rebirth or Weapon X/Plus/Multiply/Exponential.

Maybe they can have the Beta Project trying to create a new Chinook or, better yet, use Puck's old gang to make super soldiers, not bad guys though. Or even the Beta Project to recreate what happened to Puck...

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Originally Posted by Mokole

See? All of this is a perfect lead-in for Marvel to do an AF miniseries about....the Beta Project! Once and for all, our very own, Canadian super-hero project, not a shoehorned Project Rebirth or Weapon X/Plus/Multiply/Exponential.

Maybe they can have the Beta Project trying to create a new Chinook or, better yet, use Puck's old gang to make super soldiers, not bad guys though. Or even the Beta Project to recreate what happened to Puck...

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I'd buy it! (Which means it'll never happen)

Hurray, Le Messor! You have taken a fractious thread and, in a brilliant display of logic and diplomacy, made peace amongst us all.

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Originally Posted by Legerd

Hurray, Le Messor! You have taken a fractious thread and, in a brilliant display of logic and diplomacy, made peace amongst us all.

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I'll drink to that! So will Phil, I'm sure. Many times.

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Originally Posted by Legerd

Hurray, Le Messor! You have taken a fractious thread and, in a brilliant display of logic and diplomacy, made peace amongst us all.

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Whoa. I know i just woke up from a nap, but i feel like I might have just fallen down a rabbit hole...where am I, and what have we done with logic and reason?

Marvel have posted a Q&A with Dale Eaglesham regarding his Hulk run, which features a preview image from Hulk #55 featuring AF:

Attachment 2511

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Originally Posted by Legerd

Hurray, Le Messor! You have taken a fractious thread and, in a brilliant display of logic and diplomacy, made peace amongst us all.

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Thanks. :oops:

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Thanks. :oops:

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LOOK OUT! He's turning RED!

You won't like him when he turns red.

Still better than when I turn purple.

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

Whoa. I know i just woke up from a nap, but i feel like I might have just fallen down a rabbit hole...where am I, and what have we done with logic and reason?

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I know, scary, eh?

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Originally Posted by Phil

Marvel have posted a Q&A with Dale Eaglesham regarding his Hulk run, which features a preview image from Hulk #55 featuring AF:

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Aside from the art I'm not liking this story. Half of the team is in the hospital, the other half was taken out by the villain. AF will never draw in new fans if they are only ever seen as red shirts in every guest appearance.

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Originally Posted by Legerd

Aside from the art I'm not liking this story. Half of the team is in the hospital, the other half was taken out by the villain. AF will never draw in new fans if they are only ever seen as red shirts in every guest appearance.

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Which goes back to what i said here http://alphaflight.net/showthread.ph...ulk-54-Preview

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Is it possible that the only way Marvel would let another (Volume 4, in this case) AF mini be written, was that somebody had to pitch the idea of making AF a big joke? I mean, c'mon; one member (Aurora) is bat-s%&t crazy, one member (Puck) is bat-out-of-heck crazy, one member (Heather) killed her relatives in cold blood and fled, one member (James) is dealing with his wife and daughter fleeing away from him, one member (Marrina) cycles between the personalities of Wolverine and Deadpool, one member (Walter) is Hulk-dumb...need i go on? Seriously, Alpha Flight is a bigger joke now than when Mailman Mike wiped them out off-panel. It seems like Marvel never wants them to be treated seriosuly, never wants them to be a true heavy-hitter, always wants to treat them like the Great Lakes Avengers or something...I'm not impressed.

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CBR have a Commentary Track with Jeff Parker for Hulk #53 at http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=39272

Alpha related bits are:

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In this page we have another scene of what feels like character growth for Ross when Guardian says he contacted them before they undertook action on Canadian soil, and it seems Ross is even heeding Guardian's advice. Is that true? Would the old Ross behave like that? Was he an arrogant leader who expected his orders followed to the letter or was he more egalitarian? Further, what's your sense of the current dynamic between the Red Hulk and Alpha Flight?
Ross is all about protocol when there is any; he likes all that order and hierarchy. Ever since he became the Red Hulk he's been trying to sneak his military life back in even though he can't be a General again. I don't think he was actually arrogant, but yes, he did expect that his orders were The Word and a unit follows them all the way.He seems to respect Alpha Flight a little more than many of the US super groups because they are a national-based defense. That's the kind of thing he understands. Other groups just thrown together for vague reasons? He doesn't trust that!

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In this scene the Mayan's reveal another ability. It looks like they can possess beings? Do they need to be beings of limited intellect like Sasquatch or can they possess other more intelligent beings as well?
They don't do it again, it's just something they could exploit with Sasquatch at his current state of clarity. He got knocked back a bit in recent stories -- Dr. Langowski would never have succumbed.

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We also get a look Snowbird transforming and the Sasquatch shape she morphs into. I don't recall Snowbird's animals and transforming process ever looking this sort of ethereal. Is this a new effect or has it been used before? And who came up with it, you or Dale?
That's Dale! He started that in his ["Alpha Flight"] story with Greg Pak and Fred Van Lente. It's been great having him in here to keep Alpha Flight running smooth. He's also very clever with depictions and effects, that Eaglesham. He's been a joy to work with.

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Here you reveal that the Mayans possessed Sasquatch to try and lure Red Hulk and Alpha Flight into their temple. This suggests the Mayans won't be doing a lot of fighting out in the open and that, at least at first, they'll rely on subterfuge. Is that correct? Or do they have forces or members that can go toe-to-toe with the Hulk outside of their temples and fortifications?
Exactly, they start off sneaky and subtle. And once they don't need to be so cagey, they go totally big. You'll see in the next issue, they have some real ancient bruisers who pack a wallop. They've had a lot of time to think about this plan…

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That's nice that AF got mentioned.

Not exactly any new news here, though, that's for sure; AF is a nation-based defense team, Sasquatch is stupid, Eaglesham is a good artist, and...that's it for the "Alpha" stuff.

Worth a mention for the dedicated (ie. on this site) fan, but not likely to cause the casual fan to give even a second more of thought towards our beloved Flight.

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Originally Posted by Phil

Going by that logic then, the Tanaraq connection is the retcon.
Sasquatch's origin as told in Volume 1 #11 is all Gamma related.
nowhere is the portal or Tanaraq mentioned in that issue.

Or at least that's how I read it.
Youre welcome to disagree :)

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I certainly think John Byrne had it planned and even hinted at it in the origin.

Dana

Whoops...Sorry, I'm a little late to this conversation.

Hulk 54 and 55 are out and no discussion? I like the story and Dale's art alone is worth the purchase.


Alpha Flight specific spoilers


Hulk 54 - Alpha Flight is recovering in the hospital and Puck is yelling at Ross for answers. Aurora, Snowbird and Sasquatch are still trapped in the pyramid and drained dried like the two She Hulks in the previous issue. Each person they drain they can revive a Mayan God. Sasquatch is so strong he could revive two on his own, while everyone else one. Interesting as Snowbird was in Sasquatch form and she only brought one Mayan back.

Hulk 55 - All the people drained are basically dead except for Snowbird, this is due to the fact she is powered by the Inuit gods (Inua technically). So guess that means Sasquatch and the Great Beasts is either officially retconned or ignored. Also A-Bomb/Rick Jones says, "Alpha Flight, they're all mutants, aren't they? I mean, that's essentially what we are, but we're not....natural". Then Machine Man says Snowbird is not she is supernautral and doesnt mention the same for Sasquatch. So now Alpha Flight might be retconned to be mutants. Captain America phones team Rulk and mentions Puck has been constantly phoning him for updates. Aurora, Sasquatch and Snowbird are rescued and the rest of the team is going to be brought back to fight the Mayans

Decent story, definetly have a few issues but I am really enjoying it. The Avengers back-up team was pretty random and obscure characters...more so then Alpha Flight, but I pretty much knew them all. Not sure why Toro (not Golden-Age Toro a different one) was there, he is a Young Allies

Ret-Cons suck!

I am hoping the mutants crack was meant to be a joke, perhaps suggested by Dale?

I haven't read the issues yet, won't be able to for a few weeks still. You said they were "rescued", so i am taking it that means they are not old dried up dead husks anymore?

This sounds interesting. I hope I can get to a comic shop, soon.

Not all retcons are bad, Wolverine was originally supposed to be a super evolved actual Wolverine, for example. I think what matters is weather a retcon adds something of value to the character or takes it away or doesn't make sense. Loeb's retcon turns Wolvy back into a super evolved animal, but even makes less sense, and takes away a lot that has been established on the MU in regards to feral and lycanthropic mutants, and thus is terrible by comparison.

I prefer the idea of Sasquatch being of mystical origin better than Gamma ray induced mutation. The Gamma Ray thing has already been done to great effect to the point where it makes Sas seem like an imitation. People should correct the author on what Sas' origin status is. This sounds more like an error that could be written out of continuity easily than an intentional retcon. A retcon should involve some explanation for how the origin has been changed or was previously incorrect. The last thing Alpha needs is more continuity issues at this point.

So, ES...are you in favour of this retcon (Sas is not connected to the Great Beasts and all of AF are mutants), or not? Your answer was a bit ambivalent the way it was written.

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Originally Posted by -K-M-

Hulk 54 and 55 are out and no discussion?

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I thought it best not to add my thoughts to this thread! ;)

I wont even be mentioning that I won't be adding my thoughts.

That spectacular, was it? Oy.

No no, I just don't want to start another argument because my analysis differs to someone elses.

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Originally Posted by Phil

No no, I just don't want to start another argument because my analysis differs to someone elses.

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Oh. Is this about (or not about?) the Sasquatch thing?

I like Sasquatch. And cheese. And I'd buy a Sasquatch made of cheese for a dollar.

The cheese Sasquatch is ten dollars because it's a variant.

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Originally Posted by Phil

The cheese Sasquatch is ten dollars because it's a variant.

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Lol. Oh, that's a gouda one, Phil!

You haverti read it, then? I hope they did good by Puck.

As far as the 'mutants' thing, I'd say Jones was just pointing out that all but Guardian isn't exactly a human standard, all are altered humans. Not exactly accurate, as to be a mutant means you have mutated (non-standard) genes. A Marvel mutant has a specific x-gene mutation, other 'mutants' have their original DNA altered. I don't think Puck falls into that category, Marrina certainly does, Guardian no, Sasquatch maybe.

Sasquatch because of the gamma experiment opened a portal to become attached to a Great Beast. Mutated genes?

Puck was squashed by magic, no gene mutating necessary.

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

You said they were "rescued", so i am taking it that means they are not old dried up dead husks anymore?

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Still all dried up, but their free from the Pyramid.

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Originally Posted by Phil

I thought it best not to add my thoughts to this thread! ;)

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*sigh* you can add your thoughts

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Originally Posted by rplass

I wont even be mentioning that I won't be adding my thoughts.

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Didn't like it?

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Originally Posted by -K-M-

Hulk 54 and 55 are out and no discussion? I like the story and Dale's art alone is worth the purchase.

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I haven't had a chance to re-read 53 yet, which I want to do because it could affect my thoughts on the four pages of argument preceding. (I think I missed something that set that argument off.) So, I've been quiet about these.
Also, I don't have 55 yet, edam it!

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Originally Posted by Mokole

As far as the 'mutants' thing, I'd say Jones was just pointing out that all but Guardian isn't exactly a human standard, all are altered humans. Not exactly accurate, as to be a mutant means you have mutated (non-standard) genes. A Marvel mutant has a specific x-gene mutation, other 'mutants' have their original DNA altered. I don't think Puck falls into that category, Marrina certainly does, Guardian no, Sasquatch maybe.

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Technically, in the MU, 'mutant' simply means you were born with your powers - in the MU. It's a different definition to ours.

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Originally Posted by -K-M-

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Originally Posted by rplass

I wont even be mentioning that I won't be adding my thoughts.

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Didn't like it?

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I think that was a joke. Did you notice that Rob mentioned exactly what he posted to say he won't even be mentioning?


- Le Messor
"I'm a prostitute robot from the future!"
~ Manny

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Originally Posted by -K-M-

Didn't like it?

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Heh, I didn't read it yet. It was horribly unfair of me to imply I had a negative opinion of it. I'm so ashamed.

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I'm so ashamed.

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You need to say that in more of a Kirk voice: "I'm...so ashamed."

Yeah, except Kirk would never say that because he ain't ashamed ever.