confirmation that marvel hates omega/alpha

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

Wow.
Hey, welcome me back, fellow AF/OF fans! I had surgery a couple of weeks ago, and have not had much chance to get to my computer until now.
(in case you are wondering, I had my soul removed, because apparently as an Alpha Flight fan, I do not need one anymore! lol - just kidding!)

Ah, i have missed the rantings so much! lol

Seriously though, it is good to be back.

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Welcome back.

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

Now, on to business...(Sorry if I am long-winded, I have a lot of catching up to do)...
I like a lot of what cmdrkoenig67 has had to say in this subject (and in others on this board). Very thoughtful and interesting and intelligent stuff, yet still passionate. Love it. Is it cynical and bitter? No question! But i still agree with most of it.

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Cynical and bitter?!!! Why you---!!!!!! :evil:

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

SmurfInABlender wrote:
The thing is it is impossible to get the glory of the original series. I Honestly though V2 was a good attempt at gettign Af back, I thought it was a very interesting comic.. Of course granted it still had room to grow and was written in a short sighted way but still it was nice to see some new ideas thrown in there.

I agree, Smurf. I enjoyed Volume II immensely (although i am missing a few issues of it). Was it like Volume I? No. And that made it interesting, because it was different, yet still entertaining, and still delaing with the heroes that we all love. It was AF.

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Isn't saying that something is impossible, the very pinnacle of negativity? I can't say that we'll never have the glory that was the original, because I don't know that...There is every possibility that we could have Alpha Flight back and it could be amazing....How's that for possitive? :P

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

SmurfInABlender wrote:
As long as the AF characters are kept alive i'm happy. But they Killed them.. and in return for doing that we got an Ongoing series... which that was also killed. So the three we can hope for are Sasquatch Northstar and Aurora.. and hopefully Kyle Gibney to take over the Guardian spot for a while.

Yay! Another Kyle Gibney reference! Go Kyle!
And I agree, I think we all agree...being downgraded felt horrible to us. We deserve better. AF deserves better. But, we have to live with what we get, because apparently complaining to Marvel only pisses them off, it doesn't make them change anything.

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I wouldn't be so sure about that...Squeeky wheel and all that...

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

Ahab wrote:
I like the idea of sending Marvel positive feedback, as was mentioned in a previous post. Positive feedback from AF fans is going to stick in their memory more than negative, as there is already a stigma that the core group of Af fans is a prickly lot. Why not surprise them?

I can agree with this. Positive reinforcement is a good thing. So, as soon as they do something Positive (sorry, but downgrading from ongoing to mini is a Negative, and dissing fans is a Negative) I will be sure to tell them how great they are. However...as fans, we are Expected to be emotional (fans=fanatics). If they want an emotional response from us when they do something that we like, then they have to expect and accept that we have every right to be angry with them (and express it to them) when they do something that they do not like. It is a two-way street. Nuff said.

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Good for you, FP...

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

Varo wrote:
i am extremely positive about this book. i really feel with the combination of oeming and kollins we will get a very good rendition of a supergroup based in Canada with ties to the original alpha.
the blatant blunders by the higher ups at marvel have me scratching my head though. thus some of the criticism. we have never just came out and attacked marvel, we have usually just reacted to negative news.

i apologize for some recent negative posts, i know they are getting old, its just that if i went to a automotive forum and complained there they may look at me like i have 3 heads. so this seemed like the best place to vent.

That's right - we do not attack the company, only there policies and attitudes that alienate the fans and contrive to make the series sell Less (potentially). They need to positively reinforce their Own Series - why should we be responsible for doing that? They are a money-making company - if they are not putting enough effort into promoting OF...think about that. When you really stop and think about that...it is a little scary, what that says.

And..."hip-hip-hooray" for the 3-headed automotive monster! Will this creature be appearing soon in it's own monthly title from Marvel? lol

cheers!
good to be back.

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Bravo, sir!

Dana

P.S. If the killing of the original Alpha Flight isn't enough proof that Marvel execs dislike/hate/despise Alpha Flight, then what other proof do you people need?

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If the killing of the original Alpha Flight isn't enough proof that Marvel execs dislike/hate/despise Alpha Flight, then what other proof do you people need?

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I agree. Only thing I would add to that , is this...
rather than dislike/hate/despise , I would say that perhaps disrespect is the proper word to use.
And, if they prove me wrong, then hurray, I win! Because i get an awesome, ongoing comic, where my favourite characters come back from the (stillas yet unofficial) "dead" and get to run amok with a couple of American heroes and fight major bad-a$# villains from the States as well as their old villains from days of yore.
And if I am right?
Then i cry a lot.
:(

The bottom line is selling units. That's business, not personal.
That said, I somehow don't think Marvel's anti-AF instances--of which there are many through the years--are strictly business. People get hired and fired in the professional business world all the time, not on what's best for the company, but due to personalities and politics.

With Marvel and AF, I think the personal bias is anti-Byrne.

AF is, I think, Byrne's only headline CREATION for Marvel.

Mantlo's respectful use of AF following Byrne's departure only seemed to last as long as Byrne did with Marvel. The gutting of AF seemed to coincide with the Byrne/Shooter blow-out centered around FF.

After Shooter left Marvel, Byrne returned in some capacity. He was given "created by credits" on later issues of AF, around the same time he did a few covers.

Marvel needs to do something with their properties every few years to avoid losing the copyrights. It would not surprise me that they would do projects that may prevent benefit to Byrne. The man is notorious, to legendary proportions, for being difficult and egotistical. AF premeired in the 1980's, when creator rights were emerging from the prior blanket work-for hire arrangements, so Byrne may get some residuals from his creations.

Just some speculation, in what seems to rectify the pattern of AF's history with their owning corporation.

Some very good points there, Kozzi.

Byrne and Quesada have a not-so-friendly relationship too, ever since the cancellation of X-Men: The Hidden Years (which was selling pretty well, when it was cancelled). There's a lot of bad blood between Byrne and Marvel (during the Shooter years and then later with Quesada).

Dana

Every Marvel comic I've picked up in the last 2 weeks has had an advert for Omega Flight... that's more advertising than Volume 3 of Alpha Flight got.

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

If they want an emotional response from us when they do something that we like, then they have to expect and accept that we have every right to be angry with them (and express it to them) when they do something that they do not like. It is a two-way street. Nuff said.

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You are absolutely correct, it IS a two way street. But I highly doubt that many have used the street to go both directions. I would contend that Marvel probably does not receive as many positive comments from AF fans as negative, even when there is good news out there (such as when OF was first announced). Yes, it could be argued that Marvel staff do not have a great track record of how they have handled AF, but the fact of the matter is that there is more incentive to send a letter or email when a fan is unhappy than when they are happy. I've had enough experience working with the public to know that. There's no need to preach to the choir about how AF/OF has been handled and how unfair it has been, as I am aware of all of it. I just don't believe that AF fans as a whole have been equally positive as negative when the opportunity to show it has presented itself. And despite all of the bad, there has been opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Ahab

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

If they want an emotional response from us when they do something that we like, then they have to expect and accept that we have every right to be angry with them (and express it to them) when they do something that they do not like. It is a two-way street. Nuff said.

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You are absolutely correct, it IS a two way street. But I highly doubt that many have used the street to go both directions. I would contend that Marvel probably does not receive as many positive comments from AF fans as negative, even when there is good news out there (such as when OF was first announced). Yes, it could be argued that Marvel staff do not have a great track record of how they have handled AF, but the fact of the matter is that there is more incentive to send a letter or email when a fan is unhappy than when they are happy. I've had enough experience working with the public to know that. There's no need to preach to the choir about how AF/OF has been handled and how unfair it has been, as I am aware of all of it. I just don't believe that AF fans as a whole have been equally positive as negative when the opportunity to show it has presented itself. And despite all of the bad, there has been opportunity.

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Huh??...So AF fans are a negative lot, more so than other comic fans? How do you figure that? I think you're assuming a lot here.

Dana

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Originally Posted by cmdrkoenig67

Huh??...So AF fans are a negative lot, more so than other comic fans? How do you figure that? I think you're assuming a lot here.

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I agree with Dana here.

While I do think there's a lot of negativity here, I feel it's based upon passion which is usually a good thing, and there's far less negativity here than elsewhere on the internet involving other characters/creators etc...

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Originally Posted by Ahab

I would contend that Marvel probably does not receive as many positive comments from AF fans as negative, even when there is good news out there (such as when OF was first announced).

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Assuming, of course, we saw that as good news.
People keep saying 'vote with your wallet'. Money talks; but it speaks in a very garbled voice. (I've said all this before, *sigh*)

(Not directed at Ahab per se: )
When Marvel release a brand new series, filled with all new characters that we've never seen before, in style that's nothing like AF, that tells stories that aren't like AF stories (ie: largely mystical, and character-driven), then throws the word 'Flight' and a greek letter on the cover, it fails. Then they tell us that there's no market for 'Alpha Flight'.
My money wasn't trying to say that. It was -trying- to say 'Alpha Flight is my series. I don't know who you are'.
But, of course, Marvel reinterprets it until my meanining is lost.

If I don't send in a letter -which will, by definition, be negative- how will I get my point across?

(A few weeks ago, we were in a long line in a grocery store. A new checkout opened up, and a manager told us we could move to it. We declined. I realised later that the manager might interpret that as 'No way, we hate that guy on the new checkout'. I'd worked with him before and I liked him. We just liked the girl on our checkout so much, we'd deliberately sought her out. I was worried we'd got the guy fired, but I saw him in the store yesterday. The point? People will interpret our actions to fit their own prejudi.)

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Originally Posted by Ahab

Yes, it could be argued that Marvel staff do not have a great track record of how they have handled AF, but the fact of the matter is that there is more incentive to send a letter or email when a fan is unhappy than when they are happy. I've had enough experience working with the public to know that.

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True. It's human nature. So why should AF fans be any different? I believe at least three members of this board are human.

- Le Messor
"Tell them that it's human nature--why, why, why does he do it that way?"
- Michael Jackson

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Originally Posted by Ahab

Yes, it could be argued that Marvel staff do not have a great track record of how they have handled AF, but the fact of the matter is that there is more incentive to send a letter or email when a fan is unhappy than when they are happy.

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Except in guest appearances. The Black Panther cameo was well done.

Derivitives of AF have been handled well in Exiles throughout that title's run.

We may not have like what happened to Aurora and Jeffries during the course, but they were basically handled well in Weapon X.

The Wolverine appearances by Tieri also went over well, and the complaints about the prior Wolverine appearance seemed limited to the "impossibility" (continuity-wise) of Snowbird's resurrection.

It's when it comes to an Alpha title that Marvel consistely fouls up.

I think the term negative is being bandied about a lot because our feelings re what is going on are being highlighted. If we look from the point of view of
Positives
New ongoing Flight Book
Tied into the MU
Top notch creative team

Negatives
Book now a mini (because Marvel don't want to flood the market with team books... Loners, Champions, New Warriors, Avengers Initiative, Mighty Avengers, Clandestine etc)
Marvel EIC calls out OF/AF fans, basically calling us stupid.

Negativity breeds negativity, but given the circumstances, I think we've been pretty co-herent in our protests. At the end of the day we are passionate about the team, but haven't been given anything decent in years. The first chance for that to change is taken away and we get called out for it. Phils right, passion not negativity.

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Originally Posted by Phil

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Originally Posted by cmdrkoenig67

Huh??...So AF fans are a negative lot, more so than other comic fans? How do you figure that? I think you're assuming a lot here.

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I agree with Dana here.

While I do think there's a lot of negativity here, I feel it's based upon passion which is usually a good thing, and there's far less negativity here than elsewhere on the internet involving other characters/creators etc...

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The assumption being made here is that I said that AF fans are more negative than other comic fans. I never said that, nor did I mean to infer it. I don't know much about the fandom of other comic series, but I suspect that when it comes to behavior, there are a lot of groups out there that make us look like a girl scout troup in comparison. Comic forums seem to be ripe with rude, disrespectful people. On the contrary, I think everyone here does a pretty decent job of being respectful with one another. The only point that I was trying to make was that Marvel is obviously not considering AF fans in the best light, whether they perceive our letters as negative, passionate or whatever you want to call it. Being overwhelmingly positive about things for a change, in a letter sent to them, would probably make them fall over and take notice.

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Originally Posted by Ahab

The assumption being made here is that I said that AF fans are more negative than other comic fans. I never said that, nor did I mean to infer it. I don't know much about the fandom of other comic series, but I suspect that when it comes to behavior, there are a lot of groups out there that make us look like a girl scout troup in comparison. Comic forums seem to be ripe with rude, disrespectful people. On the contrary, I think everyone here does a pretty decent job of being respectful with one another. The only point that I was trying to make was that Marvel is obviously not considering AF fans in the best light, whether they perceive our letters as negative, passionate or whatever you want to call it. Being overwhelmingly positive about things for a change, in a letter sent to them, would probably make them fall over and take notice.

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This was exactly the point I was trying to make. I'm sure there are much more passionate flamers of Marvel in the world. This group does a very good job of keeping things tongue in cheek even when firing off a salvo. I think though that Marvel would be floored if they heard some positive feedback. I fully support everyone's right to be disheartened by the recent news, in fact it's definitely taken me time to put my negative thoughts aside. But I'll give it a chance and hope that it leads to something more, though I'm not sure what that is with most of my favorites dead.

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Originally Posted by Phil

Every Marvel comic I've picked up in the last 2 weeks has had an advert for Omega Flight... that's more advertising than Volume 3 of Alpha Flight got.

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I didn't see them. Which comics did you pick up? If I have the same ones, I'd like to look them up. (Or, when I get them later).

(I saw an ad for Gunslinger in a lot of them; it was annoying. 1) because it was carboard and ripping itself out of its staples in almost every issue it was in.
2) I didn't need it. I bought Gunslinger in the same batch as all those ads! :/ )

- Le Messor
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H.L. Mencken"

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Originally Posted by Ahab

The assumption being made here is that I said that AF fans are more negative than other comic fans. I never said that, nor did I mean to infer it. I don't know much about the fandom of other comic series, but I suspect that when it comes to behavior, there are a lot of groups out there that make us look like a girl scout troup in comparison. Comic forums seem to be ripe with rude, disrespectful people. On the contrary, I think everyone here does a pretty decent job of being respectful with one another. The only point that I was trying to make was that Marvel is obviously not considering AF fans in the best light, whether they perceive our letters as negative, passionate or whatever you want to call it. Being overwhelmingly positive about things for a change, in a letter sent to them, would probably make them fall over and take notice.

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"Being overwhelmingly positive about things for a change"? I don't know...It sounds to me like you're saying we're usually negative.

Dana