SHRA : Good or Bad ? (Omega Flight #2 Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by Manikin

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It is up to the subjugated portion of the population (this isn't as communist as it sounds) to take a stand up en-masse and demand their rights, by herself She-Hulk is completely inneffective, something shown by her being yanked around in the Baldwin case.

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I will say that I think you are missing my point. I did not say that She-Hulk would singlehandedly bring an end to the SHRA. Imagine however every anti-reg hero standing up and fighting this through proper channels. I am also sorry, but either I have never read, or heard about, heroes being drafted into Shield against their will. So I cannot remark about Cloud9.

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Marvel seems to have been back and forth on the entire "universal" draft idea throughout CW. As I originally understood it, only those wishin to exercise their powers in a public capacity, namely crimefighting, would be subject to draft, while those that chose to not exercise their powers, or otherwsie remanied off the "radar", would be left alone.

That's nothing new of course. Atthe beginning of CW it was said that Canada had it's own SRA overturned, but now with OF we've suddenly had an SRA all along... which as apparently worked beautufllu and never turned any of us Canucks against each other. Our heroes don't fight each other, we don't illegally abducted and experiment on them, we don't make clones, or try to force anyone into service. We don't do any of those things that those evil Marvel Americans do. ;-)

But yeah, I am vaguely aware of Cloud9 and her fellow recruits.

Regarding the SRA and those heroes opposed to it; it seems worth mentioning that no one was labelled Anti-Reg at the time the Act was passed. This is a label they all earned by virtue of their deeds and reaction. They could have chosen to cooperate, and pursued the matter throug the same avenues any of us non-superpowered, non-sociopathic people would have to, and leave rebellion as a last resort. Pro-Reg heroes in the very inner circle of it all were freely expressing doubt and dissent, and no one was trying to crush or silence them for it. In contrast, Captain America himself raged like a fanatic the moment doubt was expressed in his own faction, declaring that they haven't a clue about freedom... seeming to imply that true freedom was only gained through subjagation to Cap's vision and worldview, as opposed to exercising one's own judgment and having one's own opinions and ideas.

Anyway, a concerted effort made by a unified superhero community to oppose the SRA in a meaningful and acceptable manner was entirely viable at the outset. And they could have mustered all of the resources of society to oppose the Act, including their own intelligence network. Andmost of all, the option for violence would still have been there if none of it had worked out.

At the very least the anti-reg camp could have had a less polarized view of the affair, and kept the door open for the residents of the Middle Yard to work their magic.

Of course, demonstrations and legal proceedings don't make for good comicbooks. Superhero battles make for good comicbooks. And in the end, while I respect the climes that some people are living under, including the writers of CW, it's just a comicbook to me. Anyway, I would have liked to see some middle grounders from both sides adding depth to the story and working together to moderate the conflcit and work for a true resolution while all of the single minded knuckleheads did what knuckleheads do. I would have liked to see more honour amongst them, more respect for the opposition... all of whom should have known better than to try and villify the other.

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Originally Posted by Powersurge

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Originally Posted by Manikin

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It is up to the subjugated portion of the population (this isn't as communist as it sounds) to take a stand up en-masse and demand their rights, by herself She-Hulk is completely inneffective, something shown by her being yanked around in the Baldwin case.

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I will say that I think you are missing my point. I did not say that She-Hulk would singlehandedly bring an end to the SHRA. Imagine however every anti-reg hero standing up and fighting this through proper channels. I am also sorry, but either I have never read, or heard about, heroes being drafted into Shield against their will. So I cannot remark about Cloud9.

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Marvel seems to have been back and forth on the entire "universal" draft idea throughout CW. As I originally understood it, only those wishin to exercise their powers in a public capacity, namely crimefighting, would be subject to draft, while those that chose to not exercise their powers, or otherwsie remanied off the "radar", would be left alone.

That's nothing new of course. Atthe beginning of CW it was said that Canada had it's own SRA overturned, but now with OF we've suddenly had an SRA all along... which as apparently worked beautufllu and never turned any of us Canucks against each other. Our heroes don't fight each other, we don't illegally abducted and experiment on them, we don't make clones, or try to force anyone into service. We don't do any of those things that those evil Marvel Americans do. ;-)

But yeah, I am vaguely aware of Cloud9 and her fellow recruits.

Regarding the SRA and those heroes opposed to it; it seems worth mentioning that no one was labelled Anti-Reg at the time the Act was passed. This is a label they all earned by virtue of their deeds and reaction. They could have chosen to cooperate, and pursued the matter throug the same avenues any of us non-superpowered, non-sociopathic people would have to, and leave rebellion as a last resort. Pro-Reg heroes in the very inner circle of it all were freely expressing doubt and dissent, and no one was trying to crush or silence them for it. In contrast, Captain America himself raged like a fanatic the moment doubt was expressed in his own faction, declaring that they haven't a clue about freedom... seeming to imply that true freedom was only gained through subjagation to Cap's vision and worldview, as opposed to exercising one's own judgment and having one's own opinions and ideas.

Anyway, a concerted effort made by a unified superhero community to oppose the SRA in a meaningful and acceptable manner was entirely viable at the outset. And they could have mustered all of the resources of society to oppose the Act, including their own intelligence network. Andmost of all, the option for violence would still have been there if none of it had worked out.

At the very least the anti-reg camp could have had a less polarized view of the affair, and kept the door open for the residents of the Middle Yard to work their magic.

Of course, demonstrations and legal proceedings don't make for good comicbooks. Superhero battles make for good comicbooks. And in the end, while I respect the climes that some people are living under, including the writers of CW, it's just a comicbook to me. Anyway, I would have liked to see some middle grounders from both sides adding depth to the story and working together to moderate the conflcit and work for a true resolution while all of the single minded knuckleheads did what knuckleheads do. I would have liked to see more honour amongst them, more respect for the opposition... all of whom should have known better than to try and villify the other.

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In New Averngers #22 the story was as follows. Literally minutes after the SHRA was approved. Luke Cage was sitting in his apartment. Not fighting crime Not being a vigalante. Shield Agents simply attacked him in his home in Harlem simply based on the idea that he MIGHT refuse. So YES as soon as the act was passesed heroes where labeled as anti-registration before any action was taken on their part. I should have mentioned this example earlier. But I honestly can think of a better example as to how corrupt and wrong the SHRA is. They where herded up and coralled based on the opinions of Tony Stark. Excuse that

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Originally Posted by Manikin

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It is up to the subjugated portion of the population (this isn't as communist as it sounds) to take a stand up en-masse and demand their rights, by herself She-Hulk is completely inneffective, something shown by her being yanked around in the Baldwin case.

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I will say that I think you are missing my point. I did not say that She-Hulk would singlehandedly bring an end to the SHRA. Imagine however every anti-reg hero standing up and fighting this through proper channels. I am also sorry, but either I have never read, or heard about, heroes being drafted into Shield against their will. So I cannot remark about Cloud9.

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But your point basically hinges upon "the anti-reg people are wrong, therefore the pro-reg people are right" however regardless of the reactions of the anti-reg people, everything the pro-reg people did was wrong. If every anti-reg here "fought through proper channels" they would still be battling against a law that was wrong. (See Dfense's example for some Pro-Reg wrongness.)

Also: She Hulk was drafted against her will. She didn't fight it but she certainly didn't want it.

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Originally Posted by Powersurge

[Regarding the SRA and those heroes opposed to it; it seems worth mentioning that no one was labelled Anti-Reg at the time the Act was passed.

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Tell that to Maria Hill. (In my opinion, the REAL villain of the whole thing)

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Anyway, a concerted effort made by a unified superhero community to oppose the SRA in a meaningful and acceptable manner was entirely viable at the outset. And they could have mustered all of the resources of society to oppose the Act, including their own intelligence network. Andmost of all, the option for violence would still have been there if none of it had worked out.

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No. Captain Amercia was fired upon by SHIELD agents before the law was even enacted, simply because he expressed doubts about going after trusted and respected colleagues.

Is it any wonder he started having flashbacks to the days of stomping SS?

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But your point basically hinges upon "the anti-reg people are wrong, therefore the pro-reg people are right" however regardless of the reactions of the anti-reg people, everything the pro-reg people did was wrong. If every anti-reg here "fought through proper channels" they would still be battling against a law that was wrong.

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If you note in my posts, like most of the PR heroes, I also express doubt toward the SHRA. It isn't that I think you are still missing my point, but more than I have a rather scatterbrained way of thinking and writting. Segways and Non-Sequitors abounding. ;)

The idea of the PRs or the ARs being wrong or right is kind of a strange idea. The SHRA is wrong in many ways and right in many ways. The stuff that happened to Cap and Luke Cage were a little hard to swallow for me, it kinda ruined much of my faith in the SHRA as a whole. My main point, after all this muckity-muck, is that once the law had been passed there was little that anyone could do to stop it. Best they flee to Canada where it is SANE. I think Cable had the right idea by allowing anyone who wanted to, the option to seek refuge in his country. I just have a hard time swallowing the idea that creating an underground is the answer so soon after the act has been passed.

Some of you may think that I have a sort of blind faith in the SHRA. That isn't the truth, I disagree with the way it was handled, and executed. The way that the heroes were imprisoned, they way Reed became a mad scientist, the way everyone reacted to Goliaths death at the hands of the Thorbot. Bleh....

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Originally Posted by Transmetropolitan

Tell that to Maria Hill. (In my opinion, the REAL villain of the whole thing)

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I don't buy that. To be sure, Maria Hill handled many things very poorly, but I am inclined to agree her her appraisal of the situation... that she was put in the position of Director of SHIELD precisely so she would handle things poorly and fail. She is the perfect scapegoat.

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No. Captain Amercia was fired upon by SHIELD agents before the law was even enacted, simply because he expressed doubts about going after trusted and respected colleagues.

Is it any wonder he started having flashbacks to the days of stomping SS?

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But the fact remains that the pro-regs didn't have a list that seperated one group from another, and drawing on two isolated examples, Cap and Cage, really just points back to the general lack of trust in the system. A system that, prior to CW, these same heroes forced others to be beholdent too and regularly upheld.

I'm not excusing the actions taken against camp, which seemed to be designed for the specific purpose of forcing Cap into the Anti-Reg camp. And likewise Cage. All I'm saying is that the actions taken against them were taken against them, specifically, for reasons specific to them, and were not applied across the board to any and every potential Anti-Reg'er.

Like I said in a previous post, the voice of conscience and dissent was free and at work in the very heart of the Pro-Reg camp. And it was nowhere to be found amongst the Anti-Reg'ers.

And in the spirit of what Manikin said, I'll repeat that when it comes right down to it, I am less a supporter of the SRA, though I believe in the gist of it, and more a supporter of Western democracy and the avenues it presents for conflict resolution. And it is of course easy to say that conventional avenues of challenging the law wouldn't have worked, when the fact of the matter is that no concerted effort was ever made to work the system. How long did it take King Jr.? Was he a freeman during his entire campaign? Was the system not rigged against his cause?

King fought the good fight, in a highly respectable manner, affirmative of the society he wished to join, and didn't concern himself with all of the reasons he and his had to take up arms. The man had faith and courage.

My issue with this whole Civil War/Pro Reg/Anti Reg mularky is this.... Why prosecute so vehemently superheroes who are trying to make the world a better place. Wouldn't those same efforts be much better placed ferreting out child molestors and kidnappers, rapists, murderers, extortionists, etc. America has registration acts on the books for sex offenders, but I guarantee the police/government know where only a fraction of these psychopaths are. Why not do some real good and bring them to justice before they kidnap and murder another child? Just seems like a lot of effort to restrict a group of individuals that help rather than hurt society as a whole. Place the focus where it's useful. Register known supervillains? OK that may have merit. Registering heroes though just seems counterproductive.

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Originally Posted by Powersurge

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Originally Posted by Transmetropolitan

Tell that to Maria Hill. (In my opinion, the REAL villain of the whole thing)

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I don't buy that. To be sure, Maria Hill handled many things very poorly, but I am inclined to agree her her appraisal of the situation... that she was put in the position of Director of SHIELD precisely so she would handle things poorly and fail. She is the perfect scapegoat.

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No. Captain Amercia was fired upon by SHIELD agents before the law was even enacted, simply because he expressed doubts about going after trusted and respected colleagues.

Is it any wonder he started having flashbacks to the days of stomping SS?

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But the fact remains that the pro-regs didn't have a list that seperated one group from another, and drawing on two isolated examples, Cap and Cage, really just points back to the general lack of trust in the system. A system that, prior to CW, these same heroes forced others to be beholdent too and regularly upheld.

I'm not excusing the actions taken against camp, which seemed to be designed for the specific purpose of forcing Cap into the Anti-Reg camp. And likewise Cage. All I'm saying is that the actions taken against them were taken against them, specifically, for reasons specific to them, and were not applied across the board to any and every potential Anti-Reg'er.

Like I said in a previous post, the voice of conscience and dissent was free and at work in the very heart of the Pro-Reg camp. And it was nowhere to be found amongst the Anti-Reg'ers.

And in the spirit of what Manikin said, I'll repeat that when it comes right down to it, I am less a supporter of the SRA, though I believe in the gist of it, and more a supporter of Western democracy and the avenues it presents for conflict resolution. And it is of course easy to say that conventional avenues of challenging the law wouldn't have worked, when the fact of the matter is that no concerted effort was ever made to work the system. How long did it take King Jr.? Was he a freeman during his entire campaign? Was the system not rigged against his cause?

King fought the good fight, in a highly respectable manner, affirmative of the society he wished to join, and didn't concern himself with all of the reasons he and his had to take up arms. The man had faith and courage.

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By western democracy. Do you mean taking over 3rd world countries and putting in our own leaders for our own purposes under the pretense that we are protecting our own citizens and the rest of the world? Im sorry I hate to open this can of worms. But...We dont live in a democracy anymore. Our foreign policies are a joke and the rest of the world looks at our foreign policies as self serving and greedy. Americas need to sustain its middle class is bleeding the world dry of oil and causing us to go to war with oil rich countries to sustain our decadent way of life. Anyway...Maria hill did have a list. In Civil War #1 right before they open fire on Cap. She tells cap they have an idea of who is going to sign and who isnt. She asks cap the odds of beating the Anti-regs. Sounds like they had war planned from the begging.

Exactly.

She pretty much orders him to head up the Gestapo, and hunt down those who won;t sign.


Ah, Civil War.... when the voices of reason are Wolverine and Ben Grimm, you're in DEEP trouble.

It didn't help that Marvel never gave us a copy of the actual legislation.

It's kinda hard to debate the merits of a law that we don;t even have the specifics of.

I agree with the intent of registration, make no mistake.

But the tactics which were used in trying to force it down the throatrs of the unwilling struck me as excessive.

Prodigy, for example. How much of a threat was he, really? Did Tony REALLY need to cut loose on him?

It's over-the-top tactics like that that send a message that could easily scare off fence-sitters.
It's as if Marvel is hellbent on having the SHRA fail.

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Originally Posted by Transmetropolitan

It didn't help that Marvel never gave us a copy of the actual legislation.

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But then they couldn't dick around the story as much now could they? :wink: I might change my position if I had a copy of a law which seemed reasonable. But I don't, so I won't.

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Originally Posted by Dfense75

By western democracy. Do you mean taking over 3rd world countries and putting in our own leaders for our own purposes under the pretense that we are protecting our own citizens and the rest of the world? Im sorry I hate to open this can of worms. But...We dont live in a democracy anymore. Our foreign policies are a joke and the rest of the world looks at our foreign policies as self serving and greedy. Americas need to sustain its middle class is bleeding the world dry of oil and causing us to go to war with oil rich countries to sustain our decadent way of life. Anyway...Maria hill did have a list. In Civil War #1 right before they open fire on Cap. She tells cap they have an idea of who is going to sign and who isnt. She asks cap the odds of beating the Anti-regs. Sounds like they had war planned from the begging.

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Having an idea of who will sign and who won't sign is alot different than having a list. And having a list, and even a battle plan to take down potential offenders, is alot different than labelling the people on that list as criminal prior to the fact.

And why ask Cap about stuff they, presumably, already knew? "Who won't sign?" "The lonewolfs and those that work close to the streets." " So, no one you can't handle." "What?!"

I'm not reading some grand design into those questions.

As for Western Democracy; I am refering to just that, the free democracies of the West, American *included*. The places that don't order their lives based on codes authored over a thousand years ago, and where laws can be challeneged, ammended and/or overturned. The places where you don't wind up dead in a ditch for voicing one's disapproval with the establishment or a particular law. The places that have freed people from slavery, granted women their rights, allowed people the freedom to practice their religion and culture, and the places that regularly invite people from the far flung corners of the world to come and share in the prosperity. The places unlike any other on the face of the Earth.

And the last I checked, not many people in America or elsewhere in the West are all that willing to give up their cars, cut down on their use, fly less, buy local, or at all abandon the sense of entitlement that creates the demand for the things the "evil government" is trying to provide for.

Our way of life and standard of living in the West has a cost. And the reality is, as much as we might deplore that cost, we can't have it both ways.

If a Yank doesn't like Bush and his foreign policies, it is a simple matter to vote him and his party out at the next election; or is he out by defaulty after this term? Anyway, the democratic west, unlike other areas of the world, where the only way a person leaves office is if they are dragged out kicking and screaming after much bloodshed and at the point of a gun.

A simple matter of voting him out huh? LOL yeah we all know how well that voting process works when hes involved LOL. The America your describing Im sorry to say is long gone. Invite people far over the world to share in prosperity? Maybe 50 years ago. If you havent been following what Bush is trying to do with immigration than maybe you should. We are hardly welcoming people into this country ATM. Freed people from slavery? Yes slavery doesnt exist anymore. But if I recall it wasnt without going to war over it. They where not jumping for joy about giving up their slaves and where willing to have a Civil War over it. As for as the way of living we are viewed across the world as greedy and wasteful. There is a reason we use more resources than our population needs and are the most over weight nation in the world. Are you aware of the percentages of the worlds oil that we use? Its ridiculous. Your outlook on the Maria Hill conversation Cap is a little blind. We never saw the "list" But come on you dont think SHIELD had one. They went after a heroes such as Luke Cage minutes after the law was in place when they had not even broke the law or where given a chance to sign up. Its not your fault you have read all the Civil War stuff. There was alot. But if you dont see there was an agenda than your just not seeing. It was a directive and a violent one at that. A shining example of Americas all to common practice of Pre-Emption with the excuse thats its to protect its people. If Luke Cage was just sitting in his apartment not breaking the law. What was SHIELD protecting us from? The possibilty of him breaking the law? Yeah they just picked his name out of hat. Im sure they didnt have it planned. Its coincidence that as soon as it turned midnight the day the SHRA went into effect they where at his home guns blazing. Yeah im sure his name was not on a list. It was like in World War 2 what america did. Rounding up the Japanese on suspicion that they might be sympathizers and putting them into camps. Guess what we are doing that now in real life again. Alot of American citizens of middle eastern decent are/where being held without trial on the basis of suspicion that they are Al-quaida. Wake up. Joe Quesada himself has said they are using this story to show whats going on is WRONG. The act is corrupt, the Marvel universe government is corrupt, and if your reading all of the Initiative books you can see thats its not going to work and that its all going to fall apart. Thats the point of the whole story. To show how American Civil liberties are disappearing in out country. It has been stated as so publicly. So smell the coffee and not what Iron Man and SHIELD have been shoveling. Your defending a point that is doomed to fail because it was intended to fail from the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Powersurge

If a Yank doesn't like Bush and his foreign policies, it is a simple matter to vote him and his party out at the next election; or is he out by defaulty after this term?

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Well...This is his last term (he can never be prez again, thank God!)...However, Bush was made president the first time dishonestly(which sums up pretty much his entire 8 years as president), he didn't win the election...But we were still stuck with him. I really don't know why he won the second time...I didn't vote for him in either election (I actually have some brains in my head).

I pray that a Democrat is elected next year...Barring any more Republican shennanigans.

Dana :P

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Originally Posted by Dfense75

A simple matter of voting him out huh? LOL yeah we all know how well that voting process works when hes involved LOL. The America your describing Im sorry to say is long gone. Invite people far over the world to share in prosperity? Maybe 50 years ago. If you havent been following what Bush is trying to do with immigration than maybe you should. We are hardly welcoming people into this country ATM. Freed people from slavery? Yes slavery doesnt exist anymore. But if I recall it wasnt without going to war over it. They where not jumping for joy about giving up their slaves and where willing to have a Civil War over it. As for as the way of living we are viewed across the world as greedy and wasteful. There is a reason we use more resources than our population needs and are the most over weight nation in the world. Are you aware of the percentages of the worlds oil that we use? Its ridiculous. Your outlook on the Maria Hill conversation Cap is a little blind. We never saw the "list" But come on you dont think SHIELD had one. They went after a heroes such as Luke Cage minutes after the law was in place when they had not even broke the law or where given a chance to sign up. Its not your fault you have read all the Civil War stuff. There was alot. But if you dont see there was an agenda than your just not seeing. It was a directive and a violent one at that. A shining example of Americas all to common practice of Pre-Emption with the excuse thats its to protect its people. If Luke Cage was just sitting in his apartment not breaking the law. What was SHIELD protecting us from? The possibilty of him breaking the law? Yeah they just picked his name out of hat. Im sure they didnt have it planned. Its coincidence that as soon as it turned midnight the day the SHRA went into effect they where at his home guns blazing. Yeah im sure his name was not on a list. It was like in World War 2 what america did. Rounding up the Japanese on suspicion that they might be sympathizers and putting them into camps. Guess what we are doing that now in real life again. Alot of American citizens of middle eastern decent are/where being held without trial on the basis of suspicion that they are Al-quaida. Wake up. Joe Quesada himself has said they are using this story to show whats going on is WRONG. The act is corrupt, the Marvel universe government is corrupt, and if your reading all of the Initiative books you can see thats its not going to work and that its all going to fall apart. Thats the point of the whole story. To show how American Civil liberties are disappearing in out country. It has been stated as so publicly. So smell the coffee and not what Iron Man and SHIELD have been shoveling. Your defending a point that is doomed to fail because it was intended to fail from the beginning.

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Well said, Dfense! I agree...In a way, a similar thing was done with the Mutant Registration Act years ago...Showing that it was not all good (as the government would have their citizens believe)...That it was racial-profiling and it could even possibly lead to the easy extermination (or nearly so) of the mutant race.

The SHRA is just as dangerous as the Mutant Reg Act...A nice list of potential targets (for villains/Hydra/A.I.M./or maybe even a corrupt S.H.I.E.L.D. itself), their real names and where to find them/how to contact them.

Dana

Okay. Maybe America really does suck. We Commonwealth'ers freed slaves without the need for a war. And if we end up with a terd as PM, it generally falls on us, the people, despite the fact that we have a screwed up voting system here in Canada, with votes split between multiple parties that often leaves a party in power that doesn't have the majority of the population backing it... just a majority vote, eg. 33% for one, 30% for another, and the remaining 47% split between all of parties.

As for the resources your average American uses; I suppose the government is forcing them? I'd presume that your average American, like your average Westerner, enjoys his/her lifestyle, and would probably be screaming government oppression if said government ever sought to infringe upon their freedom and right to excess. Have you cut back on your consumption?

As for Cage and the SRA; why was it just him? Why not every hero they had a tag on?

Probably because Cage is powerful and fairly well known, ie. a potential figurehead.

And the fact is that existing laws were drafted with a nonsuperpowered population in mind. Moreover, most of the anti-regs were people that wanted to go on fighting crime. They just wanted to do it however they saw fit with no strings attached and with complete anonymity.

If you can't see how a large group of incredibly and unnaturally powerful people, operating however they see fit and existing entirely outside for the loop of accountability is a dangerous thing, than perhaps it is you who simply can't see.