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I honestly think at the moment that the best way to get a slightly longer, more stable series would be to have AF majorly involved in and important to an event.
Not like they were in Fear Itself or Chaos War, but more akin to the old Infinity War and have the team in the thick of things in the main miniseries itself.
It'd raise awareness, and give more importance to the team, as long as they're written respectfully.
To an extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
Both can do traditional superhero stories if they want to, though.
My point was more that it'll take a superstar, guaranteed sales Direct Market and bookstores, creator to get AF noticed.
I don't know if MARVEL gives creative teams (or individual writers/artists/letterers) a second chance at the characters (although I see Dale has been able to utilize AF in the Red Hulk arc he's doing), and I know people don't think that John Byrne has the "star-power" he once did, but his storytelling skills are still better-than-average and his commitment to the craftsmenship of telling stories is still better-than-average. Where most of what I've read seems geared to be collected into a tradepaperback, regardless of how ridiculous the storyline/arc, there are still some creators who put the emphasis on beginning-middle-and-end storytelling...even in the context of an on-going series.
To do it extremely well, a series has to be plotted and thought-out, which is what happened with volume 1. Even though it deviated from the original course laid out in Amazing Heroes # 22, the original run had a vision and a direction.
Some of the seasoned creators may or may not want to take a shot, but Walt Simonson would be an interesting person to work on Alpha Flight. Jim McCann has earned another shot at writing the team, IMO. The one-shot artist Brown...with the new-school bleed-off-the-page blended with old-school borders...did an admirable rendition. The colorist and the letterer for volume 3 were on point. BTW composition and placement of word balloons should be a high priority for any new ALPHA FLIGHT book.
Lastly, as I've suggested umpteen times before, a 7-times-a-year book [giving the creator(s) time to put a little extra effort into it] with a bona fide double-size premiere issue, and maybe an AMAZING HEROES/MARVEL AGE-type preview* right before the relaunch...just might produce a solid, well-executed, plausible run.
* Is the Comics Buyer Guide still in publication?
I think they do - Peter David and X-Factor, anyone? - but I don't think that's the issue here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan
Here's it's a question of, would Marvel give John Byrne a second chance? Would John Byrne give Marvel a second chance? Would John Byrne give Alpha Flight a second chance?
I think the answer to the first is 'yes'(?), and the second 'no', and the third 'NO!!!!!'.
In all his career, John Byrne has only returned (for a run) to one book, that I'm aware of. (She Hulk, ftr)
He never liked / wanted to be on Alpha Flight in the first place.
And he seems to loathe Marvel now. Won't even say the company's name (s'rously, in his posts at Robotics, he posts 'M*****l' - or has on the few times I've peeked in).
That's a reference to an interview with JB, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan
- Le Messor
"In the state of Kansas, mules are not allowed to be used for duck hunting."
JB returned to doing Next Men, returned to do a run on art duties of Action Comics around the time of Infinite Crisis, drew Avengers in the late 70's and wrote them in the late 80's, did Incredible Hulk in the mid 80's then again the first time the title relaunched in 1999 or so, so it's not unprecedented...
... so more than one, then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Eberly
(I actually knew about Next Men, so I have no excuse - but not the others.)
~ Le Messor
"Many ideas grow better when transplanted into another mind than the one where they sprang up."
~ Oliver Wendall Holmes
What they need is to stop being gimmicky and just work on actual good story telling and believable character development. Figure out what is awesome about the characters, and then construct a story that brings that out more. Address poor Vindicator's situation, my gods, these characters deserve better than the treatment they've been getting, and v4 wasn't any big help, IMO!
And get Madison back into the thick of it somehow? Alpha was his home, his family. They inspired him to be something, to do something with his powers. He needs that. Bring the fight out in him again! Address all this mind washing and memory wiping bull**** that has been done to most of these characters in the recent past. I don't see how any of these characters can really effectively been worked with until a writer with some vision who actually liked AF v1 retcons some of this **** and ties up some loose ends so that these characters can function again. I'm not happy to have Mac back at the loss of Heather, ether.
If we're ever going to have more than a crappy mini or maxi, **** needs to be sorted out and made sense of.
I know there's no hope of getting Wildchild in an AF book, thanks to Loeb, Marvel's favorite pet writer who gets to do whatever he pleases no matter how asinine. I don't think I'd want to see Alpha tied into Loeb's Lupine plot any further.
The problem is that it's gimmicks that work.
The old school comic reader is slowly dying out. Independent LCS's are closing down all the time. People who once were readers are having to sell their collections and stop buying, just to keep up with the economic climate.
The new generation of comic book buyers look at comics as a quick disposable form of entertainment. They'll want to download a comic for 99c, read it once and then never read it again, out of boredom. A quick fix.
Or they'll buy a done-in-one trade from a bookstore. No dangling plotlines, no previous issue boxes.
They don't want 70 years of continuity. They don't care about past characterization.
And it's a gimmick that gets attention.
And comic companies as businesses are leaning towards this in preparation.
The matter is finding a medium between new fans and old fans.
To throw Madison back into AF now would confuse a whole generation of readers. He's not essential to the team, so if he's being written well elsewhere, so be it.
Madison isn't essential to the team. Freckle-faced Heather killing her cousins needs to dealt with. The brain-washing stuff needs to be dealt with. Original Omega Flight getting arrested (presumably) in the United States (vol. 1 # 13) and Canada needs to be addressed. I could go on...Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Heck, you're on a roll, and you have me riveted; why stop? Or should we just start a new Thread?Quote:
I could go on...
"Madison isn't essential to the team"
So what? If you ask me, this is a kind of snobbery in the AF fandom that doesn't help. Team line ups in other more consistently successful books get shaken up all the time, and the fans don't automatically 'quit' because one character they're less familiar with 'confuses them'. There is no 'essential team'. If you ask me, if anything will prevent new fans from connecting with AF, it's insisting that the team be Byrne's AF, the way Byrne set them up, written the way we think Byrne would write them, decades after Byrne left AF v1. (Not to mention, Byrne was the one who established how important AF was to Madison) Maybe Madison Jeffries isn't YOUR favorite Alphan, but he has exposure in the MU and has a ton of untapped potential and unique powers. Give me a good reason he can't fit in with the team.
As for him being well written elsewhere, is he? I hadn't noticed. *sarcasm*
I agree about Heather needing to be top priority right now. As for 70 issues of continuity, I'm saying retcon some of the wrinkles out along the way, not dwell on every hickup in their continuity in every issue. I really can not enjoy books with unaddressed continuity issues, I can't suspend my disbelief, it's a deal breaker for me. But when a writer fixes something we hated in the process of telling a story, said writer gains a new fan, for sure.
At least the brainwashing in the Omega Flight story arc from V1 made some semblance of sense. Courtney didn't just magically make them do her/his/it's bidding like so many villains later on did, nor cause their personality to change completely. Courtney exploited mentally and emotionally fragile heroes in training during their time of need, and then simply enhanced that reaction they had to being thrown out of the Flight program. Each character was still themselves, but would they have still turned to villainy without the extra push from the behavior modifying technology? We'll never know, and that grey area made Omega Flight more compelling than say, the Weapon X villainous mind washing from the early 2000s, or the Master's ability in v4 to make people his obedient drones. So in short, I'm ok with Byrne's 'brainwashing' because it wasn't even completely brain washing, if that makes any sense. But man, how many characters from AF have been brainwashed/mind controlled, in many cases more than once, now? I just think that kind of has to be addressed if Heather's going to be saved from what Master did to her.
Now, Madison Jeffries is just that guy in the corner who tinkers with tech for other people right now... not much of importance is being done with him, we're lucky he's been useful enough not to be treated as cannon fodder like poor Lil. I think it's time for him to hear about Mac being back and what happened to Heather, a former flame of his, and find his passions for being a hero reignited. See him say '**** you' to all the people using him as a freaking tool, and rush off to try to help people who were once there for him. I think hearing about the horror of Heather's mind control victimization would really do it. He's been there, he knows what that's like. Hell, you could potentially even have a stand off between Madison Jeffries, a guy who can control technology with his mind, and Mac, who relied on a technological suit to have any powers. Can you imagine the epic cliff hanger a good writer could build up to? The character development, the drama, the action, seeing the powerful rendered powerless at the hands of a man who's been a nobody for a long while now. That moment where the readers hold their breath and wonder if Madison is even sane, god, throw some PTSD in there, goodness knows Madison's trauma needs to be dealt with. I wouldn't want him to kill Mac, personally, but imagine that narrative!
You know it's sad but true. I, I'm your life, I'm the one who drags you there... (sorry, I'd rather listen to Metallica badly remembered than comics gimmicks.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
So, we're back to how they were when originally created?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
That's not what I got out of Garry's post at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
Edited for space, but I agree there.Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
The only thing that let it down was that it was so low-key that people forgot - or never realised - that it happened.
~ Le Messor
"In these matters the only certainty is that nothing is certain."
~ Pliny the Elder
Le Messor, it's old Metallica, so I'm totally down with that. lol
You know, a story will always need a hook. There has to be something to draw readers in, weather they know anything about the characters or writer or not. It's all in the execution, weather it works, or is completely transparent for the cynical gimmick it could well be. A good creative team in any medium should be able to present the prospective reader with a comprehensible narrative and some sort of visceral reaction that leaves them wanting to know more. I think in all honesty, Marvel needs to tread carefully that fine line. I for one did not quit their product for monetary reasons, rather, their product went to ****. I know many others who felt the same in the late 90 into the early 00's. I think more new readers are opening up to the idea of comics, but they will get bored and won't stick around if they just keep getting the same predictable pattern over and over again.
Phil, I might look into the digital releases myself, because $4 for a 23 page comic is ****ing ridiculous. There are series I want to read now, but they are pricing me out. Digital art is nothing new to me anyhow, as much as I enjoy hard copies. And if the book I start reading turns into a predictable cycle of the same **** I've seen a million times before, you better believe I've got better things to do with that $.99 per book. I really can't see comics at these high prices as disposable entertainment.
As to the bit about weather or not it's snobbery to claim there is a 'core team' that does not need other AF characters... how is that NOT snobbish? Who gets to decide which characters are important and which ones aren't? All that should matter is what a writer can do with them, and weather or not it's done well. These are all Alphans we're talking about, not just Mac's first pick of A listers from the start of V1!
"The only thing that let it down was that it was so low-key that people forgot - or never realised - that it happened."
I agree. I've said it before, and I'll say it again; I'm really disappointed that Byrne didn't invest more in those characters. He had great character designs and a great idea for a story which built a compelling narrative not just for the heroes, but the villains... and then he just kind of gave up and didn't want to do it anymore, never bothered to go any further into it. Who was it who said it seemed like Byrne wrote AF as a sort of Maxi series with an intended end, again? Because I thought that was apt, though depressing.
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
Ah, yes, the time period when I, as a Marvel reader who wanted to wet my toes in the DC pool just to branch out a bit, started saying, 'I couldn't get myself to read DC. DC couldn't get me to read DC... but Marvel? They got me to read DC.'Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
That happened.
Well, I felt (and since I wasn't the OP on this one, this is just my interpretation) that the attitude behind it was CLOSER TO a giving up model than a 'this is who should be on the team, this is not'. ie: 'If putting Madison on the team makes things too difficult to get a book going, don't bother.'Quote:
Originally Posted by EccentricSage
That's why I felt the attitude behind that comment wasn't snobbish.
~ Le Messor
"We can build upon foundations everywhere, if they are well and truly laid."
~ Ivy Compton-Burnett
I liked Byrne's Madison Jeffries.
I DIDN'T like him as written by other AF writers.
For ME, Madison isn't an essential AF'er, because most people who think of AF do not think of him (outside of those on this site, most people would not even realize that he WAS in AF). Therefore, most people wouldn't see having him in AF as any sort of priority, and those who only know him from his (mainly) background shots in X-Men (ie. getting knocked out, again) would probably be more confused than excited if a new AF series came out with him in it.
It's not a knock on the character, per se. As I said to start this, I liked the character, as JB wrote him. What i did not like, is that we were forced into him as co-leader of the team, that we were forced to accept his relationship with Heather, and that he became a freakin' SPACE SHIP and took AF into space for some of their possibly LAMEST adventures EVER (my personal opinion, of course).
I don't like what Madison BECAME in AF. For that reason, I'd rather see him stay where he is.