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*Shrug*Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyperstorm
You know, if you'd read what I said cloesely, you'd note that the point I'm driving at is that, whoever Bill is anchored to, it doesn't matter, because HE is a horse-faced Space Alien.
Hardly Canadian.
He could be anchored to the Hudson BAby for all I care, he's still going to be Beta Ray Bill.
Actually now that I think about it I kinda like this move.
Whether or not Beta Ray Bill is a Canadian citizen, I have no problem with his link to Canada. Afterall, space alien though he may be, Bill embodies the power of a Norse god. And Canada is the home to every authentic viking artifact found in the New World.
Norse, alien, new world/Vinland/Canda... yeah. Seems to fit.
Not that I like BRB. In fact, while his new pics look cool, I always hated him and the idea of how he got his powers. LAME.
Nevertheless, in OF I'm willing to give him a chance, for his potential for weaving in a mystical "Vinland" story arc if nothing else.
One thing I'm wondering about BRB, is there a distinct "Simon Walters" personality, or memories in there, or is he basically just wearing the man's corpse as a suit?
Good question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvus
Jake Olsen, anyone?
He has some of the memories but not the personality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvus
In next week's Civil War Spotlight there's an interview with Oeming where he states (and I'm paraphrasing majorly here) that Talisman is the team leader, although not if US Agent can help it.
Anyone else think it was Talisman that saved Bill during Stormbreaker?
Well, that sounds OK, Talisman leading and butting heads with US Agent to keep him in line...Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
it will be liek a reverse of rolls for Talisman.. reminds me of her and Heather butting heads
Well, let me just first comment on the lead topic here - that being, Mike the Mailman is in the Guardian suit.
In my viewpoint, this sucks.
I still plan on buying this series...but if i do not like the direction it is taking, i will no longer be ordering more than one copy of each issue, as previously planned.I respect Mike Oeming, due to the interviews with him that I have read. But he is REALLY going to have to "wow" me to win me over now. God bless him, I hope he does "wow" me.
Let's be honest. This is NOT an Alpha Flight sequel. It is NOT an Alpha Flight book. Not at all. It is Omega Flight. I wish they had called it "Team Omega", I am somewhat miffed that they even waylaid the "Flight" part of the name a tiny bit.
Somebody in the suit who is not a Hudson? Not a Canadian? Not a member, or former-member, of Alpha Flight? Again, IMHO, not a good move.
I understand, somewhat, why this was done. But I still do not like it, and do not respect it. Not at all.
Respect. There is that word again. If this series does not find a way, in it's paltry number of issues, to do some real homage to AF, to find a way to make this Alpha-lover's heart soar again, then i sincerely hope it dies a nasty and silent death...and then somebody, somewhere down the line, says "Hey, why don't we bring back Alpha Flight!" Respect. All i want is some real respect and decency shown to my favourite heroes. So far, nothing. I need for you to "Wow" me, Mr Oeming, if you can...
Since this is not Alpha Flight...I sure do hope that Sasquatch does not join them. I do not mind if he is in the mini-series, but I hope at the end that he goes his own way. This is not his team. This is not AF. Sasquatch has been a member of AF since the beginning, a member through all three incarnations/volumes. Talisman...OF can have her. She was only a part-time, sometimes member of AF in volume 1, and she was not even present in the other two series. She is not really an AF member, so OF can have her. Doesn't matter to me. But they cannot have my Sasquatch to keep! Never!
Mike the Mailman in the suit...only an American with no understanding of what AF means/meant to this country would dare to do something that assinine.
(My apologies to all Americans who love AF for that
comment...)
[quote="Flightpath07"]Well, let me just first comment on the lead topic here - that being, Mike the Mailman is in the Guardian suit.
In my viewpoint, this sucks.[quote]
I'm an American and I agree with you totally on this, FP. It sucks beyond sucking to have an American in the Weapon Alpha/Vindicator/Guardian mapleleaf costume, representing your country. I would feel exactly the same way if it were Captain America and they put Mac in his suit....It just isn't right, on any level.
I feel the same here, as well...This series had better be good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
I have to disagree here. As far as I'm concerned...If this is indeed, Alpha Flight's last chance (as Oeming had said), then it IS Alpha Flight Volume 4. If it's meant to be a seperate entity, then why that warning and/or threat? The prospect of it being so, certainly does not thrill me in the least. I love Alpha Flight and would hate that they never get a fair chance again because of it.
Again...I feel the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
Elizabeth...Not really an AF member, so OF can have her??!!! How dare you say such a thing...Why you little...I oughta...AAARRGH! I adore Talisman...If OF can't have Sasquatch, they can't have her either!Quote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
No need to apologize...I feel the same (except I'm just not a Canadian).
I know I've been perceived as being very negative about Omega Flight, but why shouldn't I be? Some of my most favorite Marvel characters have been brain-washed, abused, made to look like fools and killed off. Then Marvel trots out a couple of the survivors and sticks them with a bunch of decidedly non-Alphan characters and calls it a "Flight" team. The killer of Alpha Flight from the US, wearing Guardian's costume is really pushing things too far. How Walter could even be able to stomach this person wearing his dead friend's uniform or how he could even come up with this idea is well beyond my understanding.
Yes, I'm angry and I may be that way for a while. I'm also trying very hard to be positive about this project, yet I keep fearing impending disaster. I'm going to keep trying to be optimistic about OF and I will also give the series a chance.
Dana
That was kinda the point to my joke. No fan would want anyone, let alone a non-American, wearing the CA outfit other than Steve Rogers. Same as how I feel about Mike the postman being given the Guardian suit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian
Stark is now head of SHIELD, which is InternationalQuote:
Originally Posted by SmurfInABlender
Well that puts to bed the comment of seeing only one Canadian in the prom art, huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian
I think it is a PR mistake to have an American in the suit. Others have likened this to an Iraqi in the Captain America suit, but that's extreme. I think of it as having a Mexican in the Captain America suit, one who speaks only Spanish. That would NOT go over in the US. How would a Briton feel if the role of Captain Britain or Union Jack was assumed by an American, or a German? Except for the fact that it is not as visual of a gaffe, this could be Marvel's worse move since Mark Gurenwald's Black Bucky.
The suit aside, I am trying to remember that this is a team book. The Mailman can create further team dynamics and dysfunction. The prospects of this team actually getting along are slim, so that is fully in the AF tradition.
Alas, generally the Mailman reveal has killed a good part of my enthusiasm for the book. I will stilll be trying it, and there's a lot to look forward to.
I think this team is intended to be the Inititive team for Alaska, helping Canada. I don't think Talisman and Sas are going to let it become that.
Mike Oeming's script will have to work hard for me to accept motivation for Sasquatch allowing the Mailman to take the Guardian suit, both because the mailman is PRESUMABLY American (we don't know for sure that he was not born in canada or one of his parents is Canadian) and because of his role in AF's death.
As for the death itself...Sasquatch could be lying to motivate the Mailman. Sasquatch could have been lied to about the casualties. This is comics...deaths are not permanent, as we were warned in the first news article about Captain America #25.
I for one do NOT want to see Baby Hudson addressed too specifically in Omega, anything beyond a general "she's with Heather's parents." The more vague her circumstances are kept, the more of a chance that Heather is secretly alive and concentrating on being a mother until she eventually resumes a super-heroic role.
Yeah...Pretty much.Quote:
Originally Posted by mreeez
Dana :( :cry:
If the story was well told I wouldn't care in the slightest, tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by kozzi24
My point on the whole subject remains a wait and see and possibly vent after.
I take positive from the fact that the title isn't "Alpha Flight" which shows that possibly... possibly something has been learnt from the past two volumes attempts at recreating Byrne's dysfunctional family.
Yes characters I enjoyed reading about and that I feel had much more potential in them are in the land of temporary limbo that is comic's death, but maybe that's better than a volume 4 that's decreasing on substance further than 2&3.
I take solice in that Sas is still alive as he is arguably my favourite character and while this title may not be AF some of the spirit of that team and title can possibly live on through him.
I also trust Mike's writing ability generally and feel that while it may not be the ideal AF story that I'd have liked as an AF fan, it will be a storyline involving Sasquatch (and Talisman) that hopefully respects everything I enjoyed about AF.
I see OF less as a fourth volume or a spin off, but more as AF characters being used in another title, similar to Northstar in X-Men etc, and will be personally judging the story on a similar scale.
If the story is well written and there's no disrespect to AF all in all, I'll be happy.
I don't think Marvel has learned anything from the two failed volumes...In fact, they seem to be making the same mistakes again and again, etc..etc....Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Who's to say an actual AF Volume four would be worse...It might even be better than both 2 and 3?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
"Another title" with a team based in Canada, with a few former-Alphans, defending Canada's people and called "fill-in-the-blank Flight"? Yeah...That's not AF, at all. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Putting an American in a clearly Canadian mapleleaf costume is not disrespectful? Uh....Sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Dana :?
I see clearly starting off as a limited rather than an ongoing that gets ended abruptly a step in the directionQuote:
Originally Posted by cmdrkoenig67
Not I, that's for sure.Quote:
Who's to say an actual AF Volume four would be worse...It might even be better than both 2 and 3?
But with the team dead my guess is that they'd just fill it with more newly created Alpha wannabe-esque characters ala Flex and Yukon Jack... which doesn't flow for me.
It's clearly not though.Quote:
"Another title" with a team based in Canada, with a few former-Alphans, defending Canada's people and called "fill-in-the-blank Flight"? Yeah...That's not AF, at all. :wink:
It's not AF, but it's not advertising itself as such like volumes 2&3... surely that's a good thing?
Would you prefer it if they called themselves Alpha Flight?
I don't consider it disrepectful to the the great series and writing that we've all come to love in the slightest.Quote:
Putting an American in a clearly Canadian mapleleaf costume is not disrespectful? Uh....Sure.
I was talking about the actual writing rather than the nationality isisue.
Writing aside the idea of an American wearing a Canadian flag may be disrespectful personally to a Canadian, but I'm not one so can't hope to presume and prejudge.
Ooo...sorry, touched a nerve, did I?Quote:
Elizabeth...Not really an AF member, so OF can have her??!!! How dare you say such a thing...Why you little...I oughta...AAARRGH! I adore Talisman...If OF can't have Sasquatch, they can't have her either!
:o
Hey, we all have our opinions on who are our fave AF characters. You are welcome to Eliz 2Yngmen being one of yours. She isn't one of mine. I mean, look at all the trouble that was caused in Volume 1 because of her! Anybody remember Snowbird's baby? Man, that was a horrid mess...
Anyways, I do not hate Eliz. But Sas was there from the very beginning. Talisman was only there sometimes, and often unwilling, and lots of the time she was cold and distant.
If either of these two are recognizable as AF members, I would think Walter would be the one most non-Flight fans could still pick out as a definite Flight member.
And since this is Omega Flight, not Alpha Flight, I stand by what i originally said - if the comic does not find a real and significant way to make this seem much more like Alpha Flight than it currently feels, and does not leave a way for some of our fave heroes to return to service for their country in the future, then I hope it dies hard and fast, never to be heard from again. And I hope that Sasquatch never officially joins the team. He is an Alpha Flight-er, true and true.
Hey!
Here is another good point to consider, people...
In light of all that we now know about Omega Flight, how it ties in to Civil War, who is on the team, what their purpose is, and who is in the Mac-Hudson suit...
...has anybody considered what the real purpose was in killing off Alpha Flight?!?!!
I mean, really, think about this logically. Wouldn't this story have worked just as well if The Collective had killed one or two Alpha Flight members in the attack, and merely put the rest out of commission for quite a while? Really, wouldn't trhe Canadian Govt have freaked out without a superhero team to protect them, and still asked the Americans for help? Wouldn't Sasquatch have still been pissed, and had Mike wear the suit (what a dumb-a$& idea...groan...)?
What is the point in killing Alpha Flight? What is the point?
Pointless, pointless, all is pointless...
Cheap shock tactics using a set of characters with 2 failed volumes in recent years that weren't currently being used to try and make THE COLLECTIVE look an actual threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
Not necessarilly...They could just as easily revive the team for the next volume. I'd rather they didn't fill it with newbies either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
It's clearly not though.Quote:
"Another title" with a team based in Canada, with a few former-Alphans, defending Canada's people and called "fill-in-the-blank Flight"? Yeah...That's not AF, at all. :wink:
It's not AF, but it's not advertising itself as such like volumes 2&3... surely that's a good thing?
Would you prefer it if they called themselves Alpha Flight?[/quote]
Oeming did, in a way..."Alpha Flight's last chance" and all that, remember? God forbid they start soliciting it in the same manner that Vol 3 was.
I don't consider it disrepectful to the the great series and writing that we've all come to love in the slightest.Quote:
Putting an American in a clearly Canadian mapleleaf costume is not disrespectful? Uh....Sure.
I was talking about the actual writing rather than the nationality isisue.
Writing aside the idea of an American wearing a Canadian flag may be disrespectful personally to a Canadian, but I'm not one so can't hope to presume and prejudge.[/quote]
Phil...In that costume, he's representing a specific country and he isn't even a citizen of said country...That in my eyes, is disrespectful and perhaps even a type of mockery...Implying that anyone, from anywhere can fill the role easily. Gawd!...I'm having visions of Marvel's solicits for AF, Vol 3 again...Ugh!
I'm not Canadian and I can totally see it as being insulting/offensive. I myself am not a hugely patriotic person, but I would be offended if they stuck somebody who wasn't an American citzen in the Captain America uniform.
Dana
I agree. Hopefully they will.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrkoenig67
Again, agreed.Quote:
God forbid they start soliciting it in the same manner that Vol 3 was.
As much as Lobdell was guilty for, I do know he didn't write the solicits...
Then we've got different ways of looking at things.Quote:
Phil...In that costume, he's representing a specific country and he isn't even a citizen of said country...That in my eyes, is disrespectful and perhaps even a type of mockery...Implying that anyone, from anywhere can fill the role easily.
I'm not saying either one of us is right or wrong.
I just don't agree.
Again, to me they're just fictional stories and as long as there aren't slurs or stereotypes, it wouldn't bother me if an American or anyone else was in the Captain Britian uniform.Quote:
I'm not Canadian and I can totally see it as being insulting/offensive. I myself am not a hugely patriotic person, but I would be offended if they stuck somebody who wasn't an American citzen in the Captain America uniform.
Moving over to the real world I personally have more in common with certain American beliefs and ideas and culture. To me areas of America feel more like home than areas of England.
I don't feel that tourists wearing Union Jack or I love London t-shirts are insulting.
I wouldn't feel insulted if an American or a Canadian died fighting as part of an English army to save English soil.
I wouldn't feel insulted if an American soccer player captained an English league soccer team and won them trophies. Hell, I'm used to it.
That's the point, it is considered a slur to have an American wearing the Canadian flag in this case. As a European you may not get the resentment Canadians feel when other nations consider us watered down Americans. It's annoying to know that no matter what things your nation accomplishes, it's always considered a second class version of the US. So when real life writers and editors okay a story that shows an American wearing the uniform (designed after the nation's flag) of a Canadian hero who represented his country, it seems the folks at Marvel think any old American can substitute for a Canadian hero. A real life attitude appearing in a fictional story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
That may not be the intention, but that's how it's coming across.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Legerd
Phil, try to imagine how a Scot, and a nationalist one, might feel about a "Captain Scotland" character, if there was one, being an English man with no Scottish roots.
Maybe that might illustrate a bit to you why Canadians find an American being put into a Canadian Flag based costume objectional. Canadian's live right next door to a huge power that overshadows our culture much of the time, and one that takes Canada for granted for the most part, being largely ignorant of our value to them. There's a long history of America ignoring Canada's contributions and taking us for granted. The most infamous example would be the aftermath of 9/11. Most air traffic headed for the US was diverted to Canada after the attacks, and Canada took care of thousands of Americans. And thats just one example.
When the American president was thanking the various countries that helped out not long after 9/11, Canada wasn't even mentioned. And thats just one of many examples of Canada being ignored, belittled or taken for granted by America.
As for Pointer, so far, there's no rational ewhy he'd be in the maple leaf design guardian suit. To be honest, I don't understand why the guardian suit still exists. If the battle with the Collective was traumatic enough to kill Mac and the others, the suit should be beyond repair.
If Oeming thought it was a good idea to have Pointer on the team, thats controversial, but I think it might have a lot of potential. However, theres no reason to slap him in Guardian suit.
Its disrespectful, and betrays a serious lack of understanding of Canadian attitudes. And that lack of understanding makes me very dubious of the quality of the upcoming series.
actually, Walter says that Reed Richards built the suit. So, its a new suit. Though, your argument as to why it has a maple leaf on it is still valid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvus
While of course comics are not real-life, the stories (the same as any other fictional medium) tend to stem from real life events and attitudes. I tried to explain my distaste for the idea of Mike wearing the Guardian suit a few days ago but Legerd and Corvus explained it far better than I did. Well done guys.
I don't expect everyone to understand, but at least being conscious of it is important. The fact that editorial and management at Marvel don't seem to get it...reflects poorly I think. I am still hoping Mike and Scott have something really great up their sleeves and this will all be moot in a few days, but the global attitudes at large will still be a problem in my eyes. I don't have a suggestion for correcting that other than being vocal about it and trying to make it clear to others.
Exactly. Well said.Quote:
I don't expect everyone to understand, but at least being conscious of it is important. The fact that editorial and management at Marvel don't seem to get it...reflects poorly I think. I am still hoping Mike and Scott have something really great up their sleeves and this will all be moot in a few days, but the global attitudes at large will still be a problem in my eyes. I don't have a suggestion for correcting that other than being vocal about it and trying to make it clear to others.
*grumbling under breath* I still do not think there was any reason to off all the AF characters in New Avengers. Thta's just plain mean, vindictive, and spiteful - not to mention lame. I mean, isn't the truth that they want us to beleive that they killed off AF because having Mike Pointer kill a whole superhero tema would show him to be bigtime powerful and stuff? But really, they killed AF cuz they figured nobody would really care or miss them - which seems to me is the same reason guys like Joe Q do not want ot hear from us fans - they don't care about us, or our love for AF.
Hopefully, Mike Oeming and crew do care, and will show us how much, by bringing some of the "dead" back eventually, once this puppy ratchets up into an ongoing title...
I think the big thing is that, as most of you point out, an American wearing the flag suit. If it were Steve Rogers in the suit we'd still be miffed, but it's worse when it's aguy who was "used" to murder hundreds of people, many Canadians, is given the honour and distinction of wearing the flag suit for no good reason.
He has not shown any 'hero' ability, any desire to be a hero, no desire to protect Canada or anyone else, just remorse over what he was engaged in. He has no ties to heroism, brains, fighting ability, Canada, or the team. He is a guy with powers that allow him to be manipulated, so he gets a flag suit designed to help him use his powers, I guess to prevent his lack of usefulness from killing more people, so that he can be a hero.
Does he want to be a hero? Join OF? Become Canadian? Is he Canadian? Mike Oeming may have something up his sleeve to exaplin why this weak-willed accomplice murderer gets a free pass and gets trusted to join a foreign country's team and figure out what he can do not to kill anyone else, let alone save anyone.
His power is mutant energy absorption. Oeming will be sure to retconn that so that he can absorb other energy forms and actually use the energy. Likely that is what Richard's suit is for, to prevent Mailman from killing people by accident anymore and to actually have a way to use the energy he sucks in
So for me the character needs one or two things: a reason to actually be in OF as opposed to Great Lakes Avengers, and/or a name not tied to Guardian, Vindicator, or Weapon Alpha. Maybe he'll be Weapon Omega II.
It's clearly up to Mike Oeming to make this character more than the cypher he is now. After issue #2 we'll either know Mailman is a worthy Canadian, or an embarrassment.
I'll say this much.
He'll make a handy casualty for the next off-panel throwaway massacre.... :roll:
Weapon Penance? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Mokole
I sitll have to say the remorse idea works.. it worked with Spider man, and it can work with mailman mik,e we know he won't lead the team but he'll go and try and do the best for the team he can, if we go into it thiniuing "man this book will suck" then it will, but if we go in with optimism then we might be suprised
You know what would have worked better though? The idea of Lou Sadler Jr. becoming a three dimensional character after seeing those around him killed. That would have been such an interesting storyline... I would have rather seen a mini with Lou than an ongoing with Mike. Well, at current projections anyway. And with Oeming as the writer for both series.
I agree on the name thing. And I suspect that he will eventually be called Weapon Omega (hence the team name Omega Flight) - but I really hope that it does not end up so. I mean, come on, how much abuse can this WildChild fan take! First, my totally plausible idea that it is Kyle Gibney in the suit is shot down, and then to think that i may turn around and find that this Alpha-Killer (hey :idea: ! That'd be a cool name, wouldn't it? :twisted: ) guy steals Kyle's code-name too! Aargh! That would double-suck!Quote:
So for me the character needs one or two things: a reason to actually be in OF as opposed to Great Lakes Avengers, and/or a name not tied to Guardian, Vindicator, or Weapon Alpha. Maybe he'll be Weapon Omega II.
Okay...We get it. Smurf, this isn't just you (please don't take it personally...Others are doing too)...But do we have to hear this everytime somebody voices their opinion or has a problem with some aspect of the book? Why can't we discuss the upcoming series (our likes and dislikes), without being constantly asked to stay positive?Quote:
Originally Posted by SmurfInABlender
I don't know that the book is going to suck...None of us do (aside from Marvel editorial), I haven't read it yet, you haven't read it yet...I don't really see anyone actually saying that's it's going to suck. Sure...People may have issues with certain aspects of the series that have been revealed and those people are not wrong in their feelings, they just don't feel the same as some. There is no need for us who may not feel exactly the way others do, to be chastised for it or "coerced" into being positve.
Most of us (including myself) are hoping for the best with this book, even with the strikes (whether they be rumored, imagined or actual) against it. I'm really hoping that the series will create interest in classic Alpha Flight for new fans and revive interest in older fans who've left AF behind...Maybe even help bring classic Alpha back, somehow...How's that for being positive? Can people please stop trying to be Omega Flight cheerleaders and positivity coaches...It's getting as tiresome as any negativity.
Dana
Considering USAgent and Arachne's former ties, and Beta Ray Bill's ties to Thor, I think I would have preferred that this book be called Avengers North. The title may have more marketing value also, considering how big the Avengers franchise is right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
And his absorbption could be the key to resuurecting those who fell in battle against him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokole
If Sasquatch is not necessarily staying with the team, could Mailman still be leaching Sasquatch's powers/strength due to some connection forged during the battle?
The problem with Mailman killing Alpha to me is one of continuity. If Sasquatch had been the sole survivor of a massacre of the Volume 3 team, I think most of us would be relieved that the distasteful "era" was permanently over. Why bring back four of the originals from space to slaughter them? If they had been left in space and the V3 team had been slaughtered, Canada would still be without a team post Civil War. All of which just makes the deaths more gratuitous and wholley unnecessary.
Forgive me if this has been addressed prior but I have a question: In CW: The Initiative, Sasquatch says that all of Alpha Flight (or at least those members that fought the collective) are dead. Is that correct? Doesn't Puck show up in an upcoming issue of X-men Unlimited, wherein he is seen trying to drink the memories of his fallen comrades away?