I still dislike the Llan the Sorcerer storyline over anything Bill did. Even the killing of Snowbird.Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
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I still dislike the Llan the Sorcerer storyline over anything Bill did. Even the killing of Snowbird.Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
I didn't say it was the *first* reason...
Mignola was not right for the series. Nor was Gerry Talaoc.
~ Le Messor
"In order to avoid being called a flirt, she always yielded easily."
~ Charles, Count Talleyrand
Didn't that begin with Mantlo's run and bleed into James Hudnall's?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawmis
(And was half editorially mandated; 'Sandman is hot, Sandman is horror, ergo horror is hot, ipso facto make all our comics must be horror. Ipso Facto! Vis-a-vis! Concordantly! ... at least, that's what many of us have heard.)
Wasn't the Llan the Sorcerer plotline "editorially cancelled", and therefore had to be wrapped up far more quickly than the writer (Hudnall, right?) wanted it to? Or the writer was pulled from the book, mid-story? Something like that.
I thought Llan had potential. But when an editor makes a decision that causes a writer to have to change and hurry things along, that is NEVER a good thing for the plot of the book. N-E-V-E-R. I cannot get enough distaste into my typing to convey how I feel about that sort of thing.
#47 was a Heather solo issue.
And! Does Northstar's illness end up being the comic book version of AIDS? I have this hunch that I think Mantlo would actually go 'there'.
I would actually prefer to think that he wouldn't, so if my hunch is wrong, please, do tell me it is. I'd really love to think that Mantlo isn't that bad.
And does Mantlo ruin "The Gift" by bringing it back up and playing off of it? Because, omfg, these things are too much.
I ask about "The Gift" because I just started #50 last night.
And, is it me, or is it just outright GROSS that Mantlo is seemingly pairing up Knapp and Purple Girl?
It was CLEARLY stated that she is only 13 years old, and I would assume that Knapp is considerably older since he was an intern for a "doctor".
WHY were these things allowed to happen????
My dislike started as early as, what, his second issue on his run?Quote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
I remember posting here that #29 wasn't bad. But #30 blew my freaking mind because Heather was already annoying the piss out of me.
And that has NOT changed.
I am ONLY reading this series, still, because Byrne made me LOVE these characters. And a morbid curiosity keeps me needing to know how badly Mantlo is going to screw these characters up.
But, you guys, this does get better, right? Not Mantlo's run, but EVENTUALLY, someone came along and TRIED to make Alpha Flight better, yes?
Well, I liked Mantlo's run a lot and also the rest of the original v1 130 issues. Don't get sucked into the Mantlobashing. New writers change things. He changed some things. Many things changed back. Some changes were awesome.
The coughing was supposed to be AIDS, yes, but never made it into the actual comic. AIDS did show up later in the run, but with a different character.
And yeah, Kara's a bit young for Knapp. I was too wrapped up in his awesome powers to really notice. I was also too wrapped up in wishing I had Kara's powers myself to notice. Didn't want the purple skin, though.
I understand that writers change things. I understand stories have to be told.
I know these things. Alpha Flight isn't the first series I've read. :)
Going from what Byrne did, though, to what Mantlo did (or is doing, as I'm still reading his run) has been a difficult transition. I, personally, do not like it when characters are ruined to build other characters or to build other stories. However, I DO understand it to a degree because I know there are stories to be told.
I understood when Claremont did it to Captain Britain and Meggan so he could build Nightcrawler and others in Excalibur. I didn't like it, though, but I was still able to enjoy Excalibur.
But not only, imo, is Mantlo seemingly ruining EVERY character in AF, but his stories are off-the-wall even for comics, and even though, to me, it's OBVIOUS that he tried to build Heather into some awesome leader at the expense of every single character on the team, he even failed at that. He seemed clueless. At least so far. I am open to that changing, if it does. And IF it does, I'll be the first to admit it.
I enjoy Mantlo's run.
I prefer it to Nicieza and Lobdell's runs later on.
The problem is that it was jaunting following straight on from Byrne as the characterization/writing was noticeably different.
I think people would slate Mantlo's run less had it been later on in the title's history; there's still a lot of good stuff in there - characters, ideas, development. It just doesn't all mesh.
Everytime I think "Awww. Things are going good. It's going to be okay."
That is immediately destroyed either in the next panel or the next page by something else. Cancelled out. Usually by something stupid Heather either thinks or says.
The Woe of Puck is really starting to kind of get on my nerves as well. He is better than that.
I'll give it that it's action-packed. I do like that. But the characters aren't right. And the stories are insane. And I'm usually all for quirky, crazy stories. These just don't feel fun.
According to Wikipedia, for Llan the Sorcerer:Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
Created by James D. Hudnall and John Calimee
If it was cancelled, they waited a long time. If I remember correctly, the story for Llan the Sorcerer ran like 3 or 4 issues. Or perhaps it just felt that long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
Just wait. It comes up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
Age in comics is always weird. As for underage and older - just look at Kitty and Colossus in the beginning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
My original dislike was the origin he gave Puck. I wouldn't have minded Razer being in him. I just didn't like that when it wasn't, he turned into an old man. I would have rather that he kept the demon inside of him (if at all), but remained his size - and that's why it possibly ******ed his aging process - but don't age him suddenly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
For me, it took a deeper turn when he did what he did to Snowbird. I can't put into words how much I hated that story. I didn't mind Pestilence - I thought that was actually a GREAT concept and origin for the villain - just hated the end result with Snowbird.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
Other writers will make it worse. But...Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
Yes, I think so. But then later, I strongly dislike how Sasquatch is drawn. It's like they didn't even look at how he's supposed to be drawn, and rather gave him Wolverine's hair style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
I agree. I think Bill did some good things, and had some good ideas. Just some of it, was executed poorly. But as you said, some other writers come along with their own bad spins on Alpha Flight, within the original series - but also have good ideas, too. For example, James Hudnall did the Llan the Sorcerer story (which I have probably made very clear on every Alpha Flight related thread, how much I hate it) - but he also did DreamQueen (I believe), which I thought was some of the best stuff, post Byrne in the original series. So, you take the good with the bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by rplass
Yes, but to be fair, it's really hard to follow up with Byrne in the prime of his stuff. This was a time that Byrne was really on top of his game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
That's a good example (not so much Excalbur, for what I want to say - but Clairemont). Chris Clairemont is hailed as one of the X-Men gods, for what he did with the Uncanny X-Men when it first got relaunched. And to me, to this day, that's still my favorite comic writing (Uncanny X-Men #94 through #175, as well as adjective-less original X-Men relaunch with him and Jim Lee, remains a series of comics, I can read, repeatedly, and feel like there are NO bad issues! I don't believe he did that entire run, but he's responsible for the majority of it - especially the early on stuff).Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
Now, many years ago, Chris Clairemont returned to the Uncanny X-Men. And he brought in the Neo-Mutants, I believe they were called. That was some absolutely horrible writing. So even someone who was hailed the best, has their bad days!
Like I said either here or at the other forum where we were talking Alpha Flight - I think he was trying to turn Heather not into a strong female, but a tough female. A Seigonie (sp?) Weaver of ALIENS type. Shoot to kill, ask questions later, if it twitches. So it wasn't so much a strong female (say like Valkyrie, Mystique, etc) - but more of a tough, shoot to kill type. No idea why he would do this - as this was a VERY sharp contrast to the more tender, caring, Heather, who wanted to do what she could to help a savage Wolverine/Logan, when he was first found.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
Agreed. As I said, hard to follow Bryne at his prime. And Bill had a lot of great ideas, I just didn't care for how he executed some of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
This is just me, but a second Pestilence story makes absolutely no sense. Accepting Pestilence (a mortal from the 19th century) somehow hijacked the essence of a quarter-breed transmorph (aka Snowbird & Doug Thompson's baby) in AF# 37/38, he arrogantly states that he has dominion over DEATH & DECAY, while disparaging 7 GREAT BEASTS (who are a lot older than Crozier & have been at it a lot longer). Somon (at the very least should have taken acception to this); I don't think Tundra (the real Tundra) would have let that slide, either. And I doubt the others who were shown (if they had had any personality at all) would have put up with an upstart like Pestilence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
The real GREAT BEASTS would've made sure Pestilence paid for his presumptuousness. Therefore, the idiocy of the Pestilence/Snowbird-Sasquatch deathathon should not have happened.
Then Alpha Flight would've had to deal with the GREAT BEASTS.
Seems to me this is a case of forming Mantlobashing of her own, rather than getting 'sucked in'. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by rplass
I really dislike Mantlo's run; on volume 1, there are no runs I dislike worse... but it's still entertaining, and there are other runs I'm not fond of. Fabian Nicieza (who's written some stuff I love) had a terrible run.
I'm not fond of the Llan the Sorcerer storyline, though it's not my 'most-hated'; but I do admire Hudnall's work. He made me enjoy an issue with Calimee's art! How do you DO that?!?
That said, I still preferred any of volume one to either 2 or 4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawmis
If it wasn't Llan who began in Mantlo's run and bled over into Hudnall's, it was DreamQueen. So, yeah, you can give Mantlo that, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawmis
It's still doing that to you, Tawmis? (the word was r e t a r d e d, as in slowed.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawmis
Of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawmis
It's just outweighed by the bad.
True. Very true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawmis
But they can do a much better job than this.
Then again, given the personal issues Mantlo was going through at the time, it isn't fair to expect much of him.
Claremont started a little later than that, around #100 (but not #100) or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawmis
Sigourney.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawmis
~ Le Messor
"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it."
~ Groucho Marx.
... Of course, I could just check...Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
Yep, #58 was written by Mantlo and has DQ in it.
Don't always take Wikipedia as fact, but in this case; yup. First appearance AF #71.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawmis
But not 3? SurprisingQuote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
Hate to be 'that guy' but Tawmis was spot on, #94 was his first issue; straight after GSXM #1Quote:
Claremont started a little later than that, around #100 (but not #100) or so.
It's bad, but enjoyably so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Why not? I was 'that guy' first. And, I've just checked my Marvel Masterworks edition... You and Tawmis are right, #94 was his first. I've thought otherwise for a long time; I wonder why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
~ Le Messor
"More people have died in Teddy Kennedy's car than in nuclear power plants."
Phil, don't we have a James Hudnall interview somewhere on the site, where he talks about Llan? Or was that one of the editors who talked about Llan? I definitely recall reading that the storyline was meant to be much longer than it was.
You're correct on several fronts:
http://alphaflight.net/content.php?124-James-D-Hudnall-Interview
Crackity - don't read that yet!!!
Dang it, I need a screen-capture of this! lol. My two ex-wives would NEVER believe it to be true!Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Re-reading that interview, I'd hire him to do another Alpha series; it seems like he really cared about the characters a lot!
You're d@mn right. I am bashing Mantlo's run so far. I love these characters, and his run, so far, has been the trainwreck I cannot stop watching (reading). Making Purple Girl mind rape/control/WHATEVER Northstar and then having Heather make a joke about it is completely unacceptable, imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
Changing Puck's origins is completely unacceptable, imo. Making everyone on the team, basically, insult Northstar and make jokes about his sexuality, is completely unacceptable, imo. I have NO IDEA what Byrne would have done with these characters had he continued on with the series, but most of what I have read that Mantlo has done is just...Well, for all this BS, I'd better get Mac back SOON. SOON.
NO MORE CHILDREN INSIDE TREE PEOPLE. And, please, no more solo Heather issues.
I am hanging on and will continue to read because I love these characters that much.
Thank you, Phil. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
I won't read it yet.
Once you are done with Hudnall's issues, you might want to give it a once-over, it does explain a lot about what the poop went on. There are actually a lot of cool interviews buried (?) on this site.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
It's always hard to judge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
Everyone uses the 'big fans of the team and Byrne' line in interviews but they never do it justice.
Mantlo is the biggest example of this, to bring it all full circle.
I want to see those scripts he spoke of; I think they'd be cool. We could judge for ourselves the difference between his vision and the published version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
It was definitely creepy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
I can see what Mantlo was going for in a parallel to a student crush on a teacher and what they'd do if they suddenly had mind-control powers... it was just poorly executed.
I like Eugene the adventurer and I like the idea of Razaar but am in agreement that Puck should have remained what he was and should never have been a regular human before the curse.Quote:
Changing Puck's origins is completely unacceptable, imo.
Had Mantlo introduced Razaar into a dwarf Puck it would have been the best non-Byrne idea, IMO.
The height issue makes no sense at all and serves no purpose.
I think a lot of this issue is hard to judge in hindsight now.Quote:
Making everyone on the team, basically, insult Northstar and make jokes about his sexuality, is completely unacceptable, imo.
Let's remember that at the time these comics were published they wouldn't have been able to show Northstar's sexuality, or even use the word 'gay' or 'homosexual'
Mantlo was possibly trying to be subtle, based on what Byrne had told him, and was hindered by the comics code and editorial at the time.
It's a strange one, as I preferred Heather as the supportive wife and person that kept it all together behind the scenes in Byrne's run, however over the course of the 130 issue run I definitely think Heather is a better leader than Mac. Although that's probably based upon the dubious retcons of Mac's decisions that you have yet to reach...Quote:
I'd better get Mac back SOON. SOON.
And, please, no more solo Heather issues.
From the homepage just click on either of the Interviews tabs:Quote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
Attachment 4052
D'oh!Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Wait, there's a Homepage? lol
Maybe that's my problem then: I have no idea what Mantlo was going for. I just know what I am reading is messed up. haha. But what you say makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Exactly. These things would have been okay had they existed, maybe, separately. Or done separately, in some way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Yes, I agree and am well aware that my reaction to most of Mantlo's run so far has been that I'm reading it currently, so that will cause my reaction to possibly be different than had I read it in the 80's. Because, yeah, times have changed. Things are accepted now that were not accepted then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
I've heard this as well. But Heather is really, really been the most difficult for me. I LOVED her under Byrne. She was my fave (besides Mac). And she is completely different under Mantlo. Her character was changed the most. And I think it was done extremely awkwardly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
It's easy for me to sit here and judge now as I know what comes after Mantlo.
I pretty much went through the exact stages of emotions and views you went through; which is a sign that there's something universally wrong with Mantlo's run.
Yes, that there is. I just wonder what would have possessed him to do with the series what he did. A lot of it, so far, has seemed like shock value quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
For example, Northstar being gay: I understand this was not allowed to be written about in comics back then, so that it was just strongly hinted on, but to me, it could have been hinted at differently instead of everyone making the occasional crack on Northstar. It was still done distastefully.
I'm still gonna put it on Mantlo; he's the one who didn't make his intentions clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
OTOH, rape is okay if it happens to a guy (huge eyeroll here).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
I don't know... If you read it back then, you might not know Northstar was gay. The jibes aren't as obvious without hindsight; so it's harder to say how you might react.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
That said, Byrne handled it much better. Of course.
Many things have been lost that should not have been forgotten, and things have been found that perhaps were better left...Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
(I'm trying for Galadriel's voiceover from Fellowship here... the fact that I feel the need to tell you should say about how much I think I'm succeeding.)
And that's what I like about it; it's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, judging Mantlo's run. </Jack Handey>Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Well, remember the guy was suffering a terrible burn-out at the time and was pretty much losing his art. He was actually a good writer, once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
~ Le Messor
"We love to scoff at the beliefs of the Ancients. But we can't scoff personally, to their faces, and that really bugs me."
~ Jack Handey
I did not realize Northstar was gay until issue 100 when Marvel published a letter about the "AIDS" storyline and discussing his orientation. I always thought he was just shy around women. I was 11 years old when I first started reading Alpha Flight in 1984. There's alot of things I didn't catch around that age of reading comic books. Then after rereading all those issues years later, it was like, how did I not see that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
Of course. It's bothersome that this would ever even be something people would think. Or could think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
I think it depends upon how old you were when you first read it. Which kind of goes into what Chris said. At 10 years old, I might not have known.Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
12 or 14? I would have caught on. Not during Byrne's run, maybe, but during Mantlo's? Yes, I would have known Northstar was gay.
HAHAHAHA. You're the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
No, I don't remember because I didn't know. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
All I know of Mantlo, really, is that his AF run is, at best, questionable.
I guess I was naive. Or stupid. I always thought that disease Northstar had some sort of tuberculosis. Marvel couldn't mention AIDS or have gay super heroes back in 1987. But I am so glad Marvel decided not to kill Northstar. He has always been and will always be one of my favorite Alphans and super heroes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
No. I wouldn't have thought AIDS then either. Not at 10, 12, or even 14. But I would have caught on that he was gay at 12 or 14. I would have been too young in 1987 to have caught onto either Northstar being gay or the AIDS thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
Hah! Don't worry, I am typically wrong. But when it comes to early Uncanny X-Men (especially with the "new" X-Men as in Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler, etc) - I am rarely wrong about the comics back then. These days? I couldn't tell you anything about what Storm is up to, Colossus has done, etc... Sad, sad, day! But ask me about the old stuff - I am all over it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
If he somehow says something good about Llan, I will scream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
Just read the interview. You know what, I'd give him another swing at the team too.
While I dislike Purple Girl, what she did to Northstar DOES make sense to me. She's young and irresponsible, not even considering consequences, as many of us did when we were 13, 14, 15, 16 and sometimes 17 years old. (I know some people in their 30's and 40's who live this way...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
Heather making jokes, is out of character. She's supposed to be the compassionate one - the heart of the team. And perhaps this is why I hate Heather in costume, because every since she put it on - she's lost all of her heart and soul.
I can't remember if I said that in this thread, or the CBR thread - but I said the very same thing!Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
andQuote:
Originally Posted by Phil
andQuote:
Originally Posted by Crackity Jones
andQuote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
See, I also think it depends on when you read it. I was probably 16 or 17 when I read this issue (back in 1996 or 1997 when it came out?). And back in 1996, as crazy as it sounds - there really wasn't a "gay" community. So I just read it as Aurora, typically just bickering with her brother - as most brothers and sisters do (I know, because I grew up with two sisters). I didn't pick up on the fact that he was gay, until quite a bit later - and even then, I wasn't even 100% sure. I was suspecting he liked guys - but didn't really know for sure, until #106. Looking back, and having re-read it, now I see Aurora's comments, around issue #8, where she says something along the lines, "Why? You have never had a problem being around men!" It's all VERY much more clear, nowadays...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
I don't think Heather will ever be a better leader than Mac, because of her piss pour decisions she made during her time as the leader.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
I agree. I enjoyed his run on ROM and MICRONAUTS (though by the end, both got quite strange...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
Being a huge ROM fan, I agree with what you say about ROM. I still haven't read Bill's entire Micronauts run yet. But I consider the team of Bill Mantlo and Sal Buscema the golden years of ROM. And when I say golden I don't mean Michael Golden. You ROM & Micronauts fans know what I'm talking about. Looking back, it seems to me that soon after Rom teamed up with Alpha Flight (which led me to start reading AF) and Sal Buscema leaving the book after issue 58, Bill had run out of ideas for ROM and decided to wrap up the book and end the Wraith War. The ending of the Wraith War seemed almost lackluster to me. Not sure if it was Bill's writing or Steve Ditko's art or both. And ROM's adventures in space trying to find Galador, killing off the Spaceknight Squadron from Rom Annual 2, wiping out Galador's population by evil 2nd generation Spaceknights, etc, were not my favorite ROM stories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawmis
Not to detract the conversation too much - but if loved ROM, I'd recommend the ANNIHILATORS limited series (both of them).Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
I'm one who dislikes the Mantlo era (which encompasses, unfortunately, the fill-in issue (#63) James Hudnall wrote before taking over the series), not only because it deviated so much from the plans and purpose stated in Amazing Heroes # 76 and Comics Feature # 42, but because it seemed as if the publisher went out of the way to destroy a team that was poised for greatness! And stringing the faithful readers along while Alpha Flight was ripped apart.
There are things that I don't attribute to the writer: Vindicator's goggles turning from blue-to-red in the middle of the Avengers-Namor-Marrina underwater story; Madison Jeffries dropping out of the Pestilence story (AF#s 37 & 38, then popping back in the book in # 39); the lack of consistency of the Wasp (and Attuma) in the AVENGERS and ALPHA FLIGHT, and; (most importantly*) Marrina's coloring going (willy-nilly) back-and-forth between green and yellow.
* We can't blame any of this...stuff on Skrulls, anymore, can we?