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Originally Posted by kozzi24
I think much of what makes the "iconic" heroes is expossure. Batman, Superman, Wonderwoman...they have JLA, their own books, they had Superfriends, TV series. Green Lantern, Flash, Aquaman...they're not as iconic.
My feeling is that the iconic nature of a character has little to do with exposure: a character can be created in very iconic format and be little known. Utilizing the hidden language that creates that type of character, however, can result in a much stronger presence.
It's my contention that it is precisely that, the utilization of that unspoken language, that allowed for Alpha's initial explosion of popularity. They had the combination of archetypical personalities and abilities, combined with the more iconic elements of visual design, to automatically launch the characters into icon status. I believe this holds true for every member (or nearly every member) of the original team.
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Part of what has kept Hather from that iconic status, I think, is that every time an Alpha title is cancelled, there's a Mac, freshly resurrected, to make appearances in the broader Marvel Universe. Mac appeared in the Repo Man cartoon. I don't think Marvel's given her the chance to reach iconic stature.
I think that there's a reason for that. As you've pointed out, Heather's had more face time in the comics. By the logic of exposure, as you've pointed out above, she should undoubtedly be perceived as the more iconic, and so more used, if these theories hold true. Yet every time Alpha merchandise or guest appearances pop up...
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Hether being the "common man" rebuilding herself from nothing is part of what makes her the greater hero.
And again: a great hero isn't necessarily a good superhero. Cops, firefighters, and soldiers are among some of society's greatest heroes. At one point comics about them were quite popular -- but they were never mixed in with superheroes in the long term.
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The death of Snowbird comes up as a black Mark against Heather...I've questioned why the other Alpha never took her to task for it myself. But the form of a demi goddess and great beast was being overrun by Pestilence. Heather made the decision to do WHATEVER necessary to stop the threat, and she willfully killed a teammate to do it.
Because heroes make the difficult choices and live with the consequences of choosing the lesser of two evils. It's a painful truth of life.
Superheroes find a way to circumvent the two choices, finding a better, third path that a normal hero cannot achieve. Spiderman doesn't let MJ or the cable trolley drop -- he saves them both. Superman doesn't surrender the alien refugee, nor does he allow the earth to be destroyed.
Some people, irredeemable cynics imho ;) , claim that the superhero genre is nothing more than an adolescent power fantasy gone on too long. I think this is utter tripe. The genre isn't a power fantasy: the fantasy is altruism, and the dream of a better world. Power is just the fantastic vehicle by which the fantasy is lived out. (the comics of the 90's being an exception)
The key to superheroes is that they succeed where normal people would fail. Where they come back down to earth, become mortals again, is in their personal lives. When the two mix, they are stripped of potency.
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I think Heather has the spirit to be an icon, in abundance, but she lacks the exposure. Mac has had more exposure despite almost ten years of Heather in the suit, but the character to me ALWAYS lacked the spirit.
She has the spirit, but not the ability. Mac has both. While it might be argued that Heather's had more face time in the comics, it could also be argued that Mac has had little time where he hasn't been used as a ham-fisted plot device. He's more iconic, but lacks proper development.
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Originally Posted by Sylvie
Ed, I don't have your knowledge, this topic is going for ever because we don't find an argument that is as strong as yours.
My apologies if I'm seeming unusually cantankerous in this. :) Truth be told, I'm really enjoying this discussion. Granted, I haven't taken my writing seriously in a loooong time, but I still like to look at things through that lens now and again. And, hell, I'll admit it... I'd love to write and draw Alpha.
It's a pipe dream, but there it is. :) Strength of argument has nothing to do with this, for me. It's a wonderful opportunity to clarify ideas, reasoning, and stances, though. So if my pipe dream should ever come true, you'll know exactly what's going on in my head, and the reasoning behind the actions of the characters.
Or at least the ones I've prattled endlessly about.
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Yes iconic characters can be boring Captain America, Mac and Superman are (sorry, That's what I think)
Which is kind of funny, 'cause I always really liked Captain America and Superman as well. :) Hell, Superman's my favourite character, and my dream job.
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Like my comic history teacher said :"what made Tintin so populatr was that every young man (or women) could identify with Tintin. The is great to be a reporter and to go around the world, we never much about him, his parents if he had any, is family, he never got any sexuality, never knew is age... But what made the book interesting was the secondary characters, Captain Haddock, Professor Tournesol, Les Dupont et Dupont without forgetting La Castafiore.
That's pretty much a mirror to my thoughts. Characters that serve as a focal point, a solid lynchpin for a story, often pale in comparisson to other characters in the story: a character that transcends heroic to become larger than life may inspire others, but invariably leaves the audience somewhat distant. Secondary characters are the perfect solution to this: you can get more milage in exploring a story with them, play with more flaws, and take more risks in having them likeable -- which automatically means they'll be hated by some.
In cinema, movies like Braveheart are a perfect example of this. Few people spoke of William Wallace as their favourite character, but the number of people that raved about how funny/cool/brave the secondary characters were -- that's what drove the movie's popularity.
That's how many of the older heroes worked, and in recent attempts to bring them to television or movies, the most successful attempts have utilized the same (or similar) principles. Wolverine's the insanely popular one, but where would the story be going without Xavier's compassion and cool reasoning? Spider-Man's the hero, Parker's the perpetual hard-luck case, but we see the most dramatic character elements in Harry, MJ, and the villains (brilliant casting on those). In Smallville, Clark's our hero, but it's Lex, Lana, Chloe, Pete, and a host of transitory characters that moved the story along.
So should the day come that I get a crack at this dream project, and I'm doing something that has the lot of you rolling your eyes, you'll know I'm aiming for the target that's lead to longevity and strength for other franchises. :)