Crackity Jones' Discovery Of Alpha Flight

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06-18-2014
Crackity Jones

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

Well, I said earlier, Northstar and Aurora's origin gets "fixed"... Aurora where she is, ends up "fixed" also, if I recall, due to a villain later... Heather... she tries to get fixed, but too much damage is done to her, to ever like her in costume, in the original Alpha, and even in the following volumes... in Amazing X-Men, at least, she seems reset... as for Purple Girl and Manikin... I care for neither of these characters, so they could fall off the edge of the world, and the Sasquatch woman thing, gets fixed... eventually, but not nearly soon enough. And Mac, well, that gets fixed too. See what you have to look forward to? Other than Heather, you're in good hands.

Sorry, I just keep getting stuck on b!tching about it. It's mindblowing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

Because you care and want to hope that they all get fixed...

Yes, that I do.
06-18-2014
Crackity Jones

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Messor

This is what I was alluding to when I told you he'd stop picking on Heather. Technically, he does.

I see.
I am considering skipping issues #52 up to when Northstar returns. And jumping back on when he returns. I don't know. I don't want to read about Not Alpha.
06-18-2014
Phil

I think #51 onwards is where it starts to get better, as the Mantlo run winds it's way down.
I'm a big fan of the Jim Lee art and the Dream Queen storyline.

#52-53 may make you see Mac in a different light though, so maybe you won't enjoy them as much.
06-18-2014
Le Messor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

I am considering skipping issues #52 up to when Northstar returns. And jumping back on when he returns. I don't know. I don't want to read about Not Alpha.

And that's why I have such a problem with most of the later volumes. Part of it, anyway - it's Not Alpha.

However, there are some good stories between #52 and #82. I wouldn't recommend skipping all of it.
06-18-2014
Crackity Jones

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

I think #51 onwards is where it starts to get better, as the Mantlo run winds it's way down.
I'm a big fan of the Jim Lee art and the Dream Queen storyline.

#52-53 may make you see Mac in a different light though, so maybe you won't enjoy them as much.

oooh, no. :( I was actually going to read #52 because that's the one titled "FLASHBACK!", right?
I do like the Jim Lee art.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Messor

And that's why I have such a problem with most of the later volumes. Part of it, anyway - it's Not Alpha.

However, there are some good stories between #52 and #82. I wouldn't recommend skipping all of it.

Ugh. How did you all stick it through Not Alpha??
The original characters are the ONLY reason I am still reading this series.
And as of now, there aren't any originals on the team.
06-18-2014
Le Messor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

oooh, no. :( I was actually going to read #52 because that's the one titled "FLASHBACK!", right?
I do like the Jim Lee art.

It's Lee's first work for Marvel.
All the stuff about Mac will get better, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Ugh. How did you all stick it through Not Alpha??

In my case, at first because we kept getting promises from the creative team that 'it'll turn around with issue #, we promise!'; 'it'll be more of what you love after issue #, we swear!', but ultimately because I knew it was limited.

V2: I was actually lining up at the store to dump it when they told me it was getting cancelled very soon. So, I thought why not buy two or so more issues?
V3: I enjoyed it (though it was baaad) so that wasn't a problem. (Also, the promises above.)
v4 and Omega Flight? I knew from the beginning they'd only end up being limited. (All were originally slated to be ongoing series; Omega and v4 were both dropped back to limited / minis before issue 1 hit the stands.) Also, I liked Omega Flight, Non Alpha or not.
Even though v4 was the original characters, I wouldn't have stuck with it the way it was written. Your mileage may vary.

Other people? Because they enjoyed them:
See Phil's comments on another thread that v2 is what brought him here.
A lot of peeps really liked v4 - as mentioned, it was the originals. Personally, I just didn't like that it was about the angriest thing I've ever read, with them screaming in my face all the time about 'how dare you not be a minority!?! Evil!' and the v2-like 'Mind control! Mind control! Oooh!' storyline.

I don't think anybody really loved v3, but it was only 12 issues in the end.

~ Le Messor
"Equality of opportunity means equal opportunity to be unequal."
~ Iain MacLeod
06-18-2014
Tawmis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Here, Tawmis, I fixed it for you. I thought I had already put Snowbird on it.

and

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Messor

A slip-up, perhaps?

Indeed it was! She put Snowbird back in there and I was able to piece my heart back together!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Sorry, I just keep getting stuck on b!tching about it. It's mindblowing.

As expected. If you didn't complain, I'd be more worried.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

I am considering skipping issues #52 up to when Northstar returns. And jumping back on when he returns. I don't know. I don't want to read about Not Alpha.

Don't because...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

I think #51 onwards is where it starts to get better, as the Mantlo run winds it's way down.
I'm a big fan of the Jim Lee art and the Dream Queen storyline.

... this! ^^^

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Ugh. How did you all stick it through Not Alpha??
The original characters are the ONLY reason I am still reading this series.
And as of now, there aren't any originals on the team.

I believe the intention was to replace Alpha Flight entirely. Bill does good if he has a clean slate. This is why I think he initially did so well with ROM and MICRONAUTS which were both fun stories to read. (Not very much character development in either one, but they were still that comic you read for just some brainless fun).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Messor

V2: I was actually lining up at the store to dump it when they told me it was getting cancelled very soon. So, I thought why not buy two or so more issues?

When V2 came out, I recall enjoying the series. I recently tried to re-read it, and couldn't get past the original artists' work. Especially how he drew uh... "Mac" (to spare any potential spoilers).

I enjoyed Radius (and his origin), as well as his half-brother (though the origin they tried to peg for him, to me, was too much of a stretch and I don't think ever got confirmed). I strongly dislike Man-Bot or whatever his name was. But for the worse character in Alpha Flight history, second place goes to Murmur. First place goes to - if you can count him, since it wasn't in an ALPHA FLIGHT series, goes to Earth Mover. (Worse character even in ALPHA FLIGHT history, you probably know who I'd say it was...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Messor

V3: I enjoyed it (though it was baaad) so that wasn't a problem. (Also, the promises above.)

This was the "comedy" one, right? Scott was writing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Messor

v4 and Omega Flight? I knew from the beginning they'd only end up being limited. (All were originally slated to be ongoing series; Omega and v4 were both dropped back to limited / minis before issue 1 hit the stands.) Also, I liked Omega Flight, Non Alpha or not.
Even though v4 was the original characters, I wouldn't have stuck with it the way it was written. Your mileage may vary.
Other people? Because they enjoyed them:
See Phil's comments on another thread that v2 is what brought him here.
A lot of peeps really liked v4 - as mentioned, it was the originals. Personally, I just didn't like that it was about the angriest thing I've ever read, with them screaming in my face all the time about 'how dare you not be a minority!?! Evil!' and the v2-like 'Mind control! Mind control! Oooh!' storyline.

I enjoyed Volume 4, because it "reset" Alpha Flight. Were they a little more angry? Sure, but consider what they have been through, wouldn't you be pissed too? :)

I liked them having an edge. I feel like that's something Alpha Flight needed. For too long, they have been treated like a joke. I think, in part, because of how Volume 1 came about after Byrne's departure. It was so horribly handled - and not just from Bill. I think in the Marvel offices, new people were tossed onto Alpha Flight, to try and do something with it, simply because it was tied to the X-Men and the X-Men were popular back then, so they wanted to see if someone could make something happen. But they didn't want to put big names on there, because they were reserved to Marvel's core, big titles (FF, Hulk, Avengers, X-Men, etc). As a result, with so many writers and artists who walked through the original volume of Alpha Flight, it became almost unbearable, confusing, and a nightmare. I don't think anyone, post Byrne, ever cared about their assignment on Alpha Flight, and basically did what they had to, to keep their jobs.

So "rebooting"/resetting Alpha Flight with some edge, I think would have been what it needed. For the market readers to say, "Oh, hey, here's this team that's not going to put up with any Bull$#!+!"

Sadly, we did not get to see that develop into a series, right when we had a great artist on it, and a writer who expressed interest in making something of Alpha Flight...
06-18-2014
Crackity Jones

My friend just received the first 10 issues of Byrne's run, so I'm going to re-read it while she's reading it for the first time. :D
I could probably use to do it anyway since so much character development and happenings are awesomely crammed into those first 10 issues.
06-18-2014
Phil

I liked Volume 2, 3 and 4.
They weren't Byrne's Alpha Flight but then again nothing else was/will be.
Hell, even Byrne ran out of ideas and enthusiasm for the team. Who's to say that if he stayed on the book his run wouldn't have been even worse than Mantlo's?

No one is ever going to be able to recreate those first 28 issues and that's what made them so unique and enjoyable.
I don't think writers should be trying to imitate that run; they've got to try and do something similarly unique - sometimes it hits, others it misses; them's the breaks.

And I like Earthmover.
06-18-2014
Le Messor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

Indeed it was! She put Snowbird back in there and I was able to piece my heart back together!

Then just take it; take another little piece of my heart!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

Especially how he drew uh... "Mac" (to spare any potential spoilers).

iirc, that was spoilered before #1 hit the stands.
I'd already learned to hate cartoony art long before then, especially when teamed up with dark, murky colouring.

Wait... Did Alan Davis draw a single issue? Or was it Neary? (Which would contradict something I said on another thread.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

(Worse character even in ALPHA FLIGHT history, you probably know who I'd say it was...)

Llan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

(V3) This was the "comedy" one, right? Scott was writing?

Indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

I enjoyed Volume 4, because it "reset" Alpha Flight. Were they a little more angry? Sure, but consider what they have been through, wouldn't you be pissed too?

Doesn't make me enjoy the book.
I don't want to read about a bunch of angry characters being angry. I don't like anybody when they're angry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

But they didn't want to put big names on there, because they were reserved to Marvel's core, big titles (FF, Hulk, Avengers, X-Men, etc).

Which is odd, because I often look at those big titles and wonder how this deservedly obscure person got the book!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

I don't think anyone, post Byrne, ever cared about their assignment on Alpha Flight,

I'm not sure he did, either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

For the market readers to say, "Oh, hey, here's this team that's not going to put up with any Bull$#!+!"

In other words, a pretty generic team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

I liked Volume 2, 3 and 4.

Well, the world's a twisted place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

Hell, even Byrne ran out of ideas and enthusiasm for the team. Who's to say that if he stayed on the book his run wouldn't have been even worse than Mantlo's?

Always a possibility. I have noticed he has a short attention span; maybe it's good he only stays a few issues on any given title?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

No one is ever going to be able to recreate those first 28 issues

I dunno, Alpha Flight Classics did a pretty good job...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

And I like Earthmover.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

First place goes to - if you can count him, since it wasn't in an ALPHA FLIGHT series, goes to Earth Mover.

And I know who Earthmover is!

~ Le Messor
"Life is an endurance test, so why be ashamed of your age?"
~ P.K. Shaw
06-18-2014
Crackity Jones

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

I liked Volume 2, 3 and 4.
They weren't Byrne's Alpha Flight but then again nothing else was/will be.
Hell, even Byrne ran out of ideas and enthusiasm for the team. Who's to say that if he stayed on the book his run wouldn't have been even worse than Mantlo's?

No one is ever going to be able to recreate those first 28 issues and that's what made them so unique and enjoyable.
I don't think writers should be trying to imitate that run; they've got to try and do something similarly unique - sometimes it hits, others it misses; them's the breaks.

And I like Earthmover.

Phil-
You are so...positive.
How many times have you made lemonade now? :P

Seriously, though, you are really positive. It kind of balances the thread out, what, with my instant traumatic/dramatic/freak-out posts I make everytime I read another issue now.
Thank you. :D
06-18-2014
Mekko Hotvle

I am still stuck in the Vol #1 phase of AF. Only because been having a hard time finding the later AF Vols. After getting past Byrne's run, I kinda skipped around reading issues. Some have through me for a loop i.e. Walter as a women, the worst villain being Hedlock. But I have enjoyed reading AF so far. But the funniest thing to me during this whole time of being romanced by Canada's heroes is when the scrambled eggs went crazy! I sent that out to other Native Americans and warned them that could happen with our commodity powder eggs. (Native Humor).
06-18-2014
Phil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Messor

Wait... Did Alan Davis draw a single issue? Or was it Neary? (Which would contradict something I said on another thread.)

Nope, he's never drawn an issue.

The closest he's come was drawing Marrina in Dark Reign: The List - X-Men (And that was just one panel of classic Marrina and lots of mutated Leviathan.), and Jeffries in X-Men:Schism #4.
06-18-2014
Chris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

I'm still adjusting to the fact that all of the original members are gone (as of #51), Northstar is living with elves (cause he's now a half elf???), Aurora was abandoned in the dark because: HEATHER, Heather is dancing around claiming her AF is better than Mac's, Purple Girl and Manikin are an item, Sasquatch has forgotten that even though he's physically a woman when in human form, he's still Walter in mind and spirit, and suddenly he is flirting with Gary Cody.

I looked at the scene again with Sasquatch and Gary Cody in issue 51. I don't think Walter was flirting with Cody. I think Walter was just being a smart alec (and I don't mean Alec Thorne ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

oooh, no. :( I was actually going to read #52 because that's the one titled "FLASHBACK!", right?
I do like the Jim Lee art.

Actually June Brigman drew issue #52. Jim Lee already needed a fill in artist after drawing one issue. The guy draws so good I always forgive his lateness.
You may want to read AF Annual #2 next since it takes place between issues #51 and #52. June also drew Annual #2. But the story features a lot of Heather so you may not want to read it then. But it does contain a cool fight with Box and a T-Rex. Dinosaurs sure get abused alot in comic books. Where is PETA when you need them?

Quote:

Ugh. How did you all stick it through Not Alpha??
The original characters are the ONLY reason I am still reading this series.
And as of now, there aren't any originals on the team.

Well I looked at it as I still have 3 Byrne characters on the team. Heather wearing the Vindicator suit. Madison Jeffries wearing the Box armor. And Sasquatch wearing Snowbird's body. And Jim Lee's art helped alot. I think Editor in Chief Jim Shooter had some rule that every issue is someone's first issue. Mantlo would have Jim Lee draw 4 years of Alpha Flight history in flashback scenes in almost every issue. There was no Wikipedia back then to read up on every character's origin and current status.
06-18-2014
Chris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekko Hotvle

But the funniest thing to me during this whole time of being romanced by Canada's heroes is when the scrambled eggs went crazy! I sent that out to other Native Americans and warned them that could happen with our commodity powder eggs. (Native Humor).

The next time I want a mean omelette I shall have the Great Beasts cook me one. Specially prepared by Ranaq the Great "Chef".
06-19-2014
Le Messor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekko Hotvle

I am still stuck in the Vol #1 phase of AF. Only because been having a hard time finding the later AF Vols. After getting past Byrne's run, I kinda skipped around reading issues...

Sounds like you've been getting the best of the best, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekko Hotvle

the funniest thing to me during this whole time of being romanced by Canada's heroes is when the scrambled eggs went crazy! I sent that out to other Native Americans and warned them that could happen with our commodity powder eggs.

Lol! That is great! :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

Nope, he's never drawn an issue. The closest he's come was drawing Marrina in Dark Reign: The List - X-Men (And that was just one panel of classic Marrina and lots of mutated Leviathan.), and Jeffries in X-Men:Schism #4.

I've just checked; I was thinking of v2 #6, which was a Hitch / Neary joint.
I associate Davis and Neary because Neary inked him on one of his series.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Phil-You are so...positive.
Thank you. :D

Seconded!

~ Le Messor
"Most of the time we don't communicate; we just take turns talking."
06-19-2014
Flightpath07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

I liked Volume 2, 3 and 4.
They weren't Byrne's Alpha Flight but then again nothing else was/will be.
Hell, even Byrne ran out of ideas and enthusiasm for the team. Who's to say that if he stayed on the book his run wouldn't have been even worse than Mantlo's?

No one is ever going to be able to recreate those first 28 issues and that's what made them so unique and enjoyable.
I don't think writers should be trying to imitate that run; they've got to try and do something similarly unique - sometimes it hits, others it misses; them's the breaks.

And I like Earthmover.

That's nicely put, Phil; all of it (you're very verbose, my friend!). All of the various Alpha series(es?) have something good about them, most of them quite a few things. And some bad also, quite a few bad things actually. But, for each of us, those bad and good things will be different for each reader.

Volume 3, even though it was a 'joke' and handled flippantly, and a mess at times, was what drew me to Alpha, or at least back to Alpha. I had quit reading in the late 50's (issues, not my age or the year), and got rid of ALL my comics. When i heard that Alpha was coming back for a Volume 3, i didn't even know that Volume 1 had ended! While i waited for Volume 3 to come out, i hit eBay (ouch!) and collected all of Volume 1 and 2. Long story short, here i am, you can't get rid of me now! (Well, you could block my IP...but surely SOMEBODY would miss me!)

And, Phil, you are the glue that stirs the drink, sir!
06-19-2014
Crackity Jones

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

I looked at the scene again with Sasquatch and Gary Cody in issue 51. I don't think Walter was flirting with Cody. I think Walter was just being a smart alec (and I don't mean Alec Thorne ;)

Oh! Ha, you are probably correct. I mean, I took it as a joke, just not for the same reasons. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

Actually June Brigman drew issue #52. Jim Lee already needed a fill in artist after drawing one issue. The guy draws so good I always forgive his lateness.
You may want to read AF Annual #2 next since it takes place between issues #51 and #52. June also drew Annual #2. But the story features a lot of Heather so you may not want to read it then. But it does contain a cool fight with Box and a T-Rex. Dinosaurs sure get abused alot in comic books. Where is PETA when you need them?

I haven't even read Annual #1 yet because I forgot about it. Oops! I can read both of those here soon, then, before I read #52.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

Well I looked at it as I still have 3 Byrne characters on the team. Heather wearing the Vindicator suit. Madison Jeffries wearing the Box armor. And Sasquatch wearing Snowbird's body. And Jim Lee's art helped alot. I think Editor in Chief Jim Shooter had some rule that every issue is someone's first issue. Mantlo would have Jim Lee draw 4 years of Alpha Flight history in flashback scenes in almost every issue. There was no Wikipedia back then to read up on every character's origin and current status.

Another positive thinker! <3
Because I don't count those three as original Alpha members (I didn't think of Madison Jeffries) because Heather is different and wasn't really a member until Mantlo's run (and even if so, I still don't her count because she is awful), and Sasquatch I don't count, I guess, because he isn't in his original orange suit or human form.
06-19-2014
Tawmis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

My friend just received the first 10 issues of Byrne's run, so I'm going to re-read it while she's reading it for the first time. :D
I could probably use to do it anyway since so much character development and happenings are awesomely crammed into those first 10 issues.

So you can warn her about what follows after issue #28...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

I liked Volume 2, 3 and 4.

Like I said, I originally liked Volume 2. But the art, when I tried to re-read it, was... bad. And Murmur and Manbot? Finally an Alpha Flight character created that I hate more than Manikin...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

No one is ever going to be able to recreate those first 28 issues and that's what made them so unique and enjoyable.
I don't think writers should be trying to imitate that run; they've got to try and do something similarly unique - sometimes it hits, others it misses; them's the breaks.
And I like Earthmover.

I don't think someone should try to recreate it - but others should follow the established character personalities. This is what I think did not happen.

And how can you possibly like Earthmover. Please sell me on how he's a good character. (Seriously! I'd like to hear it!) But I can't say too much, I actually liked Wyre, and I know a lot of people disliked him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Messor

Then just take it; take another little piece of my heart!

So help me if that song gets stuck in my head...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Messor

iirc, that was spoilered before #1 hit the stands.

I meant for Crackity. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Messor

Llan.

By far. The worse. You are correct. But I am surprised you were able to guess. I am usually so subtle about my hatred of the character...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekko Hotvle

I am still stuck in the Vol #1 phase of AF. Only because been having a hard time finding the later AF Vols. After getting past Byrne's run, I kinda skipped around reading issues. Some have through me for a loop i.e. Walter as a women, the worst villain being Hedlock. But I have enjoyed reading AF so far. But the funniest thing to me during this whole time of being romanced by Canada's heroes is when the scrambled eggs went crazy! I sent that out to other Native Americans and warned them that could happen with our commodity powder eggs. (Native Humor).

Worse villain being Headlok? You must have skipped the Llan the Sorcerer story, my friend. LOL
06-19-2014
Phil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

But the art, when I tried to re-read it, was... bad.

The Rouleau stuff was quite stylistic and I can see why people didn't like it.
I personally wouldn't use the term bad though.

Quote:

And Murmur and Manbot? Finally an Alpha Flight character created that I hate more than Manikin...

Yeah, Murmur was pretty redundant but was an important part of the Legacy sub plot they were building and never got to.
Manbot didn't have a chance to show any point or potential, again for the same reason.

Quote:

I don't think someone should try to recreate it - but others should follow the established character personalities. This is what I think did not happen.

These are fictional characters though; you can only follow established personalities for so long without repeating them. Hence re-creation.

Quote:

And how can you possibly like Earthmover. Please sell me on how he's a good character. (Seriously! I'd like to hear it!)

Earthmover is essentially Shaman & Talisman; a normal every day citizen pulled into a legacy of shaman magic.
To write one off is to write the other two off.
The problem with him is essentially the same as Murmur; he was a redundant character because Shaman & Talisman existed and fulfilled the role, and that he literally got 2 issues of guest appearances before being reduced to silent cameos.

Quote:

But I can't say too much, I actually liked Wyre, and I know a lot of people disliked him.

He's my fourth favourite Alphan after Sasquatch, Puck and Wild Child.

Quote:

Worse villain being Headlok? You must have skipped the Llan the Sorcerer story, my friend. LOL

I saw no problem in Llan as a character whatsoever.
Just the resolution of the arc.
06-19-2014
Crackity Jones

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

These are fictional characters though; you can only follow established personalities for so long without repeating them. Hence re-creation.

IMO, it's okay to ADD to personalities of characters, but not change them.
Which is what I feel has happened a LOT in what I've read of Mantlo's run so far.
You start changing pre-loved and established characters, you kill off a good portion of your loyal audience, imo.
06-19-2014
Phil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

IMO, it's okay to ADD to personalities of characters, but not change them.
Which is what I feel has happened a LOT in what I've read of Mantlo's run so far.
You start changing pre-loved and established characters, you kill off a good portion of your loyal audience, imo.

I definitely agree to an extent but there's a very blurred line between adding and changing, and a distinct one between changing and contrasting.
My personality has changed from 5 years ago; I've grown/evolved/natured/nurtured/endured.
Change is fine as long as there's a justifiable, logical reason.
06-19-2014
Crackity Jones

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

I definitely agree to an extent but there's a very blurred line between adding and changing, and a distinct one between changing and contrasting.
My personality has changed from 5 years ago; I've grown/evolved/natured/nurtured/endured.
Change is fine as long as there's a justifiable, logical reason.

What I meant by "add to characters' personalities" is that, obviously characters are going to go through written experiences which will add to what they are and (blurred line of "add" and "change" here) that may somewhat change how they are, but to make them completely different than how they started and were initially established? No.
Heather was a strong woman BEFORE entering Mantlo's run. He didn't have to put her into a suit and make her Mega B!tch leader to establish that she was a strong leader. Because that didn't make her strong. It just made her a b!tch, imo.
She is completely different than when Byrne wrote her. Yes, her situation changed, he could have added that to her life experiences, but not make her a completely different character like he did.

Also: I've changed as well over the past 5 years. But I'm not a fictional character. People aren't reading my life with the expectations of knowing who I am. ;)
06-19-2014
Phil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

What I meant by "add to characters' personalities" is that, obviously characters are going to go through written experiences which will add to what they are and (blurred line of "add" and "change" here) that may somewhat change how they are, but to make them completely different than how they started and were initially established? No.

Then in that case Mantlo didn't change the characters personalities, he completely contradicted what was already established, with no good reason.
Which is poor writing.
Which I totally agree with you on.

Quote:

People aren't reading my life with the expectations of knowing who I am.

Does that then raise the question that we have expectations of these characters?
We don't own them, we didn't create them, we have no claim to them...

(Being devil's advocate here, I'm 90% with you on Mantlo's issues)
06-19-2014
Crackity Jones

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

Then in that case Mantlo didn't change the characters personalities, he completely contradicted what was already established, with no good reason.
Which is poor writing.
Which I totally agree with you on.

Well, at least we agree that it just sucked. And he ruined my Heather.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

Does that then raise the question that we have expectations of these characters?
We don't own them, we didn't create them, we have no claim to them...

(Being devil's advocate here, I'm 90% with you on Mantlo's issues)

Yes, we expect a certain amount of fundamental consistencies in our fictional characters, I think. At least I do.
It's what makes them relatable.

Whether or not I have a right to expect that, it's what I do. :D
06-19-2014
Garry/Al-Fan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

...

Or the editors didn't care about Alpha Flight, in general.

I stuck through it, the entire original run, because of how much I liked the team. I kept hoping they'd get fixed.

(After #29 through #56, so much bad stuff had happened that I didn't believe it could be fixed...a lot of it will be considered canon, no matter how much retro-revising. G/A-F)

#106? The Coming Out Issue, perhaps?

(The Bachelor party/bar-hopping issue is the one I don't have, yet. G/A-F)

It was like a family! What are you talking about? A Charles Manson killing one another type family, but a family nonetheless... :roll:

One decision keeps popping up for me about AF# 44: if your leader (Heather) or your team-mates (Judd and Jeffries) KNOW that your powers are going to get negated if you touch your sibling, why on earth would you split the team up and have Northstar and Aurora in the same group, in a cave, going after a foe who beat them handily the first time?
06-19-2014
Garry/Al-Fan

DreamQueen, Heather's sister Becky, and how many "MacNeil" siblings?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

I think #51 onwards is where it starts to get better, as the Mantlo run winds it's way down.
I'm a big fan of the Jim Lee art and the Dream Queen storyline.

#52-53 may make you see Mac in a different light though, so maybe you won't enjoy them as much.

CJ, I agree with Phil; the later Mantlo run is better than the earlier part. Bare in mind this is faint praise, though; it's Alpha-lite.
06-19-2014
Crackity Jones

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

One decision keeps popping up for me about AF# 44: if your leader (Heather) or your team-mates (Judd and Jeffries) KNOW that your powers are going to get negated if you touch your sibling, why on earth would you split the team up and have Northstar and Aurora in the same group, in a cave, going after a foe who beat them handily the first time?

Because you have hopes of killing off the last of your team so that you can make an Alpha Flight team ALL YOUR OWN that consists of a Mind Raper, a guy who lusts after said under-aged Mind Raper (but he splits into three different guys, so COOL and YAY!), a guy who you suddenly have become attracted to, and a Not Sasquatch/Snowbird/whatever. And all of these thoughts hit you in a splash page at the end of the book as you ponder, in depth, how your new, ALL-YOUR-OWN AF team is better than your deceased husband's and how you are better than your deceased husband, and your justifications for SUCKING. BADLY.
06-19-2014
Crackity Jones

<---Bitter. Will always be bitter over how Heather was changed. ALWAYS.
06-19-2014
Garry/Al-Fan

"The power behind the throne" (AMAZING HEROES # 22)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

<---Bitter. Will always be bitter over how Heather was changed. ALWAYS.

I can relate, CJ.

Different people have different interpretations of ALPHA FLIGHT, but I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment of why the illogical grouping.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

Don't read vol. 4 with the expectation that Heather gets treated better. She doesn't. [poor, defenseless cousins...]
06-19-2014
TSOG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

Like I said, I originally liked Volume 2. But the art, when I tried to re-read it, was... bad. And Murmur and Manbot? Finally an Alpha Flight character created that I hate more than Manikin...

Funny, I felt the same way. As I was buying it, I was enjoying it a great deal. Maybe it was just the "buzz" of finally having some of these characters available again.

But when I read it again a couple of years later I was trying to remember what I liked. The art was often brutal and the new characters were completely unappealing to me. The book, by and large, is a giant mess.
06-19-2014
Le Messor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

And how can you possibly like Earthmover.

He, my friend, had potential. Granted, the first time he flew out in the sunlight, he got covered in concrete and ended up stuck on the edge of a building, but still, at least he didn't get wet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

So help me if that song gets stuck in my head...

What's sad is, it's a cover version that's stuck in mine, not the Janis original. :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

Worse villain being Headlok?

Who isn't even an Alpha villain. He just appeared in that one issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Also: I've changed as well over the past 5 years. But I'm not a fictional character. People aren't reading my life with the expectations of knowing who I am. ;)

1. I agree with you on holding fictional characters to different, and higher, standards to real people.
2. Actually, we are. See... this thread. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

he completely contradicted what was already established, with no good reason.

Also, completely suddenly, out of the blue. No build up or organic flow-through. It's like a giant ant farm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

Does that then raise the question that we have expectations of these characters?
We don't own them, we didn't create them, we have no claim to them...

Ah, yes, the ages old question; who really owns the characters? The creators or the fans?
Normally asked about Star Wars characters after the prequels.

It's unambiguously true we didn't create them (then again, neither did Bill Mantlo - at least, he didn't create the Alphans who got most of us reading the series) ; legally, we don't own them - though some people (in the Star Wars example) argue that we do, more than the people who did create them and more than those who legally owning them.
I leave all that to the philosophers.

What I will say is two things:
1... The creators / owners are trying to sell us these characters. If they want us to keep buying, they need to keep either meeting our expectations, or breaking them in a good way.
B) We, the fans, have invested a lot of money, time, and emotion in these characters. How many covers of each appearance of AF does Rob have, for example? If that doesn't give us some claim over them, what does? No, that wouldn't hold up in a court of law; but this is a court of public opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

<Heather in v4>

Sniff... so true.

~ Le Messor
"They say any lawyer who represents himself has a fool! for a client. As God is my witness, I am that fool!"
~ Gomez
06-19-2014
Crackity Jones

Le Messor, you're giving me goosebumps.
06-19-2014
Crackity Jones

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

I can relate, CJ.

Different people have different interpretations of ALPHA FLIGHT, but I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment of why the illogical grouping.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

Don't read vol. 4 with the expectation that Heather gets treated better. She doesn't. [poor, defenseless cousins...]

Unfortunately, at this point, right NOW, I couldn't care less about Heather.
And THAT is what ticks me off the MOST.

I went from ADORING her, thinking she was damn-near-perfect, to absolutely not giving a crap about her, to wishing they'd just kill her off because she's THAT BAD.
All in, what, 22 issues. Yes, 22 issues.
Wow, that's a lot of issues, actually.
And Heather has been horrid in every single one of those issues.
06-19-2014
Crackity Jones

#52 was the worst issue I have read so far.
You guys want me to list all the things wrong with it? Or do you remember?
*Heather hits an all-time high in stupidity.
*Mantlo states very clearly (via Box/Jeffries) that Knapp is a med school graduate, which means he is clearly well over an age to be trying to...wait, NO ONE should be trying to sex up a 13 year old.
*I believe NOTHING of what was said about Mac. I won't accept it. I won't. I know it's going to be undone just like the elves thing, right?

Those are the only three things I am listing that was wrong with the issue for now.
This issue SUCKED.
I am unhappy.
I cannot believe all the f*#kery that just happened in this book. Heather needs to just go away.
And is Gary Cody dead??
06-19-2014
Crackity Jones

I am so blasted pissed at #52.
MAKE NOTE OF THIS: #52 was the WORST ALPHA FLIGHT ISSUE EVER.
06-19-2014
Tawmis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

The Rouleau stuff was quite stylistic and I can see why people didn't like it.
I personally wouldn't use the term bad though.

Was Rouleau the first or second artist? Another artist came on who was more cartoony - I found that more bearable.
Keep in mind, when I say bad - I mean by the standard I'd expect and hope from Marvel. Most of Marvel's artists could draw circles around me on their worse day, and be better than me at my best. (Though the current Uncanny X-Men artist, whoever, the Hades that is - I feel I might have a fair shot at beating artistically!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

Yeah, Murmur was pretty redundant but was an important part of the Legacy sub plot they were building and never got to.
Manbot didn't have a chance to show any point or potential, again for the same reason.

We got, what, 20 issues? That was more than enough time to inject some personality, besides a one dimensional piece of cardboard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

These are fictional characters though; you can only follow established personalities for so long without repeating them. Hence re-creation.

Right, everyone changes. But not so drastically, usually, without it being:
- A major event in their life
- Mental illness

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

Earthmover is essentially Shaman & Talisman; a normal every day citizen pulled into a legacy of shaman magic.
To write one off is to write the other two off.

He had the personality of a rock.
And that's insulting some of my pet rocks I had in my youth!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

The problem with him is essentially the same as Murmur; he was a redundant character because Shaman & Talisman existed and fulfilled the role, and that he literally got 2 issues of guest appearances before being reduced to silent cameos.

Redundant can easily exist. I thought Shaman and Talisman, were pretty much the same. But they each stuck out. Aurora and Northstar are the same, but they stuck out.

Why?

Personality!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

He's my fourth favourite Alphan after Sasquatch, Puck and Wild Child.

Really? Earthmover? Over Snowbird? Shaman? Talisman? Aurora? Northstar?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

I saw no problem in Llan as a character whatsoever.
Just the resolution of the arc.

Well, you're entitled to be wrong. LOL

And then this happened....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

IMO, it's okay to ADD to personalities of characters, but not change them.
Which is what I feel has happened a LOT in what I've read of Mantlo's run so far.
You start changing pre-loved and established characters, you kill off a good portion of your loyal audience, imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

I definitely agree to an extent but there's a very blurred line between adding and changing, and a distinct one between changing and contrasting.
My personality has changed from 5 years ago; I've grown/evolved/natured/nurtured/endured.
Change is fine as long as there's a justifiable, logical reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

What I meant by "add to characters' personalities" is that, obviously characters are going to go through written experiences which will add to what they are and (blurred line of "add" and "change" here) that may somewhat change how they are, but to make them completely different than how they started and were initially established? No.
Also: I've changed as well over the past 5 years. But I'm not a fictional character. People aren't reading my life with the expectations of knowing who I am. :wink:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

Then in that case Mantlo didn't change the characters personalities, he completely contradicted what was already established, with no good reason.
Which is poor writing.
Which I totally agree with you on.

Which is what I was trying to say! You just agreed because Crackity is a woman! And she used her womanly charms! And better explanations! LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

One decision keeps popping up for me about AF# 44: if your leader (Heather) or your team-mates (Judd and Jeffries) KNOW that your powers are going to get negated if you touch your sibling, why on earth would you split the team up and have Northstar and Aurora in the same group, in a cave, going after a foe who beat them handily the first time?

Because Heather is a dumb ass, once she put on the costumes? That's my guess.
She might have gotten worse Alpha Flight character ever created - only pre-costumed Heather saves her from that role, when she was actually an amazing character and very believable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

<---Bitter. Will always be bitter over how Heather was changed. ALWAYS.

Don't worry. There's plenty I will always be bitter about in comics.
- Heather in a costume
- Snowbird killed
- Walter killed
- Walter brought back as a woman

And that's just in Alpha Flight... if we go beyond Alpha Flight, I'd crash the server with all my complaints...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

I can relate, CJ.

Different people have different interpretations of ALPHA FLIGHT, but I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment of why the illogical grouping.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

Don't read vol. 4 with the expectation that Heather gets treated better. She doesn't. [poor, defenseless cousins...]

LOL! So. So. So. So. VERY true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSOG

Funny, I felt the same way. As I was buying it, I was enjoying it a great deal. Maybe it was just the "buzz" of finally having some of these characters available again. But when I read it again a couple of years later I was trying to remember what I liked. The art was often brutal and the new characters were completely unappealing to me. The book, by and large, is a giant mess.

Yes, it felt like story wise, after re-reading it - the writer had a very, very, very, very loose notion of where he was going - but seemed to have "related" plot lines he was just pulling from a hat. It didn't feel focused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Messor

RE: EarthMover
He, my friend, had potential. Granted, the first time he flew into the sun he got covered in concrete and ended up stuck on the edge of a building, but still, at least he didn't get wet.

He could have stayed in the sun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Messor

What's sad is, it's a cover version that's stuck in mine, not the Janis original. :sad:

Same. I always think of ROUGH CUTT's version, because, sadly that's where I heard it first. And is, my preference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Unfortunately, at this point, right NOW, I couldn't care less about Heather.
And THAT is what ticks me off the MOST.

I went from ADORING her, thinking she was damn-near-perfect, to absolutely not giving a crap about her, to wishing they'd just kill her off because she's THAT BAD.
All in, what, 22 issues. Yes, 22 issues.
Wow, that's a lot of issues, actually.
And Heather has been horrid in every single one of those issues.

#52 was the worst issue I have read so far.
You guys want me to list all the things wrong with it? Or do you remember?
*Heather hits an all-time high in stupidity.
*Mantlo states very clearly (via Box/Jeffries) that Knapp is a med school graduate, which means he is clearly well over an age to be trying to...wait, NO ONE should be trying to sex up a 13 year old.
*I believe NOTHING of what was said about Mac. I won't accept it. I won't. I know it's going to be undone just like the elves thing, right?
I am so blasted pissed at #52.
MAKE NOTE OF THIS: #52 was the WORST ALPHA FLIGHT ISSUE EVER.

I would like to say it gets better... that Heather gets better... But... no.
06-20-2014
Le Messor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Le Messor, you're giving me goosebumps.

If you feel a shiver down your spine, don't worry. It's probably just the wind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

*I believe NOTHING of what was said about Mac. I won't accept it. I won't. I know it's going to be undone just like the elves thing, right?
And is Gary Cody dead??

Um... Yes, it will be fixed.
And, he shows up alive later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

Most of Marvel's artists could draw circles around me

Actually, circles are very, very hard to draw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

You just agreed because Crackity is a woman! And she used her womanly charms! And better explanations! LOL

And the whole being right thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

Same. I always think of ROUGH CUTT's version, because, sadly that's where I heard it first. And is, my preference.

I think mine's by Jenny Morris.

~ Le Messor
"Most of the people who are writing advertising today have never had to sell anything to anybody. They've never seen a consumer."
06-20-2014
Crackity Jones

I have no womanly charm. Even when I try it's ruined by me either sneezing, tripping over myself and falling, partially walking into a wall or doorway, freaking out over a bug, a panic attack, a paper cut, accidental work-related injury, a lack of good depth perception, or saying the wrong, stupidest thing at the wrong time (is there EVER a right time to say something stupid?).
06-20-2014
Phil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

I am so blasted pissed at #52.
MAKE NOTE OF THIS: #52 was the WORST ALPHA FLIGHT ISSUE EVER.

Hate to say I told you so... :(

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