SHRA : Good or Bad ? (Omega Flight #2 Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by Dfense75

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Le Messor!! Every time my friend and I talked about Civil War he would start to sing the Guns and Roses song. I had it out of my head for almost 2 months until your post. DAMN YOU!!

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You're gonna call me human again, aren't you?

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Every time we speak of overturning those laws, you tell us we have only one choice: overthrow the government.
I question, then, where in your worldview there is room for the moderation you speak of? You keep going from one extreme to the other.

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"Every time", huh? Perhaps you need to read a few of my posts before you accuse me of offering only one alternative every time, because your statement is so far off that it's absolut-ly ridiculous. And that makes it very difficult to even bother reading, let alone responding, to the rest of your post.

And seeing as how this thread is so much fun, thats not a good thing IMO.

So, I'm still wondering, if those heroes that went along with the American SRA are suddenly made villains as a result of their allegience, does that mean that Alpha Flight was a villainous superteam?

Afterall, as I mentioned in a previous post, the Canadian government is guilty of all of the same wrongs as the American government in CW. And since the first appearance of Canada's Iron Man, ie. Weapon Alpha, AF and it's members have acted as the goverments "enforcers", or at the very least have never set themselves in direct opposition to the Canadian goverment as a whole.

When it came to the passing of Hagon's Bill, AF responded in much the same way as Iron Man and his Pro-Reg'ers... namely, that this bill was going to become law, and either they could be enforcing it, or other less conscientious folks would be, eg. Hardliners, Sentinels, Mandroids, etc.

So, Alpha Flight, heroes or villains?

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Originally Posted by Powersurge

So, I'm still wondering, if those heroes that went along with the American SRA are suddenly made villains as a result of their allegience, does that mean that Alpha Flight was a villainous superteam?

Afterall, as I mentioned in a previous post, the Canadian government is guilty of all of the same wrongs as the American government in CW. And since the first appearance of Canada's Iron Man, ie. Weapon Alpha, AF and it's members have acted as the goverments "enforcers", or at the very least have never set themselves in direct opposition to the Canadian goverment as a whole.

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So the whole thing during the Llan storyline with Alpha being declared outlaws and arrested by Gamma after the 'Acts of Vengeance' storyline and then breaking out of prison to finish Llan off never happened? (Rhetorical question). Alpha have always gone with their heart and not out of duty as the previous highlights. Even during UXM #109 it is mentioned by Mac that by entering US airspace in a Canadian militarty jet was it tatamount to an invasion. When young and inexperienced Alpha may have followed the party line, but never blindly.

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Originally Posted by Powersurge

When it came to the passing of Hagon's Bill, AF responded in much the same way as Iron Man and his Pro-Reg'ers... namely, that this bill was going to become law, and either they could be enforcing it, or other less conscientious folks would be, eg. Hardliners, Sentinels, Mandroids, etc.

So, Alpha Flight, heroes or villains?

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Heroes every time. Alpha would have policed the Canadian SHR not followed it to it's nth degree. AF would never have allowed Extra Dimensional prisons or the conscription of unwilling combatants. Heroes!

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Originally Posted by Powersurge

When it came to the passing of Hagon's Bill, AF responded in much the same way as Iron Man and his Pro-Reg'ers... namely, that this bill was going to become law, and either they could be enforcing it, or other less conscientious folks would be, eg. Hardliners, Sentinels, Mandroids, etc.

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Except that from what I've seen, Iron Man is a "less conciensious folk". He and Reed see people as capital and numbers now.

Yeah to say Reed and Tony are "detached" is an understatement.

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Originally Posted by DelBubs

Heroes every time. Alpha would have policed the Canadian SHR not followed it to it's nth degree. AF would never have allowed Extra Dimensional prisons or the conscription of unwilling combatants. Heroes!

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Wolverine. Sasquatch vol.II. Hull House.

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Originally Posted by Powersurge

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Originally Posted by DelBubs

Heroes every time. Alpha would have policed the Canadian SHR not followed it to it's nth degree. AF would never have allowed Extra Dimensional prisons or the conscription of unwilling combatants. Heroes!

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Wolverine. Sasquatch vol.II. Hull House.

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Technically, Wolverine wasn't an unwilling conscript, he was AWOL. Vol. 2 Sasquatch was nabbed by (the evil) Dept. H after AF was disbanded in Vol. 1. Everyone on the [Vol. 2] team believed that it was Walter with a messed up mind. Hull House was also a product of evil Dept. H, not AF.

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Originally Posted by Legerd

Technically, Wolverine wasn't an unwilling conscript, he was AWOL. Vol. 2 Sasquatch was nabbed by (the evil) Dept. H after AF was disbanded in Vol. 1. Everyone on the [Vol. 2] team believed that it was Walter with a messed up mind. Hull House was also a product of evil Dept. H, not AF.

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Wolverine was nevertheless "being" forced into unwanted service, and Puck learned fast enough about Sasq's true nature.

As for Hull House; it was a product of the people AF were in the service of, even as the SRA is a product of the American government, not IM or the Avengers or whomever.

According to some here, the fact that one serves, ahem, "evil" makes one "evil"; even as they have deemed that any supporter of the SRA, be they an IM-like zealot or a She-Hulk-like moderate, is guilty by association.

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Originally Posted by Powersurge

As for Hull House; it was a product of the people AF were in the service of, even as the SRA is a product of the American government, not IM or the Avengers or whomever.

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I never saw any heroes in v2. One of the reasons why I loathed it with a passion.

- Le Messor
"Envy is the cause of political division."
- Democritus

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

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Originally Posted by Powersurge

As for Hull House; it was a product of the people AF were in the service of, even as the SRA is a product of the American government, not IM or the Avengers or whomever.

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I never saw any heroes in v2. One of the reasons why I loathed it with a passion.

- Le Messor

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I agree...The Alpha Flight members in Vol 2 were all victims of a kind (being mind-controlled, brainwashed, manipulated and lied to)...

None of the Pro-Reg Avengers were being brainwashed or mind-controlled(that we know of)...They willingly chose a side (or were doing it to further their own agenda...We may learn more about that soon). They may have been misled, whether it be by Iron Man, S.H.I.E.L.D. or the US govt...But they still had a choice in the matter (or at least, the illusion of a choice).

Dana

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Originally Posted by Powersurge

Wolverine was nevertheless "being" forced into unwanted service, and Puck learned fast enough about Sasq's true nature.

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No he wasn't. He was in service to the Canadian Military and left without permission. He was AWOL and AF was empowered to retrieve him. If he had been a civilian then I would agree with you, but he wasn't.
Puck did learn Sas' true nature... and was promptly mindwiped by Dept. H so he wouldn't remember. Every time one of the veteran heroes learned something incriminating, they were mindwiped to prevent them from doing something about it.

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Originally Posted by Powersurge

As for Hull House; it was a product of the people AF were in the service of, even as the SRA is a product of the American government, not IM or the Avengers or whomever.

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You are absolutely correct that it was a product of the people AF was working for, not the actual heroes in AF. That's the difference. The heroes did not know about Hull House as a farm for potential supers, nor did they know of Dept. H's connection to it. If they had and thought it was okay, then I would say they were bad guys. And remember, with IM it was his intention all along that something like the SHRA be passed by the US Govt. He planned it out and used the opportunity that the Stamford incident provided to push to get the Act. He and the other Illuminati were working behind the scenes to make the SHRA a reality long before it "occured" to the US Govt that such an act was "needed".

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Originally Posted by Powersurge

According to some here, the fact that one serves, ahem, "evil" makes one "evil"; even as they have deemed that any supporter of the SRA, be they an IM-like zealot or a She-Hulk-like moderate, is guilty by association.

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I won't answer for other people here, but personally, I feel that if someone knowingly serves under a corrupt power when they have the choice to oppose it, then they are just as corrupt. I won't say "evil" since I don't believe in it, but I will say the heroes willingly serving under the SHRA who do so despite the illegalities they know to be occuring are not acting as heroes in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by Legerd

You are absolutely correct that it was a product of the people AF was working for, not the actual heroes in AF. That's the difference. The heroes did not know about Hull House as a farm for potential supers, nor did they know of Dept. H's connection to it. If they had and thought it was okay, then I would say they were bad guys. And remember, with IM it was his intention all along that something like the SHRA be passed by the US Govt. He planned it out and used the opportunity that the Stamford incident provided to push to get the Act. He and the other Illuminati were working behind the scenes to make the SHRA a reality long before it "occured" to the US Govt that such an act was "needed".

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From what I've read IM was initially either opposed to the SRA or lukewarm with the idea. When he saw that it was inevitable he got behind it so that someone (more) sympathetic to heroes would be in charge. I don't recall reading anything that indicated the Illuminati were manipulating government and ochestrating America's acceptence of the SRA.

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Originally Posted by Legerd

I won't answer for other people here, but personally, I feel that if someone knowingly serves under a corrupt power when they have the choice to oppose it, then they are just as corrupt. I won't say "evil" since I don't believe in it, but I will say the heroes willingly serving under the SHRA who do so despite the illegalities they know to be occuring are not acting as heroes in my eyes.

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The idea that any modern government is pristine and innocent is, IMO, incredibly naive. That there is some corruption going on in it, especially in a superpowered world, is virtually a given. Heck, the standard of living of Western societies is maintained, here and there, by the exploitation of less fortunate nations and people. And what of our lawabiding, tax-paying Yank neighbours living under the Bush Regime?

There is the idea of freedom of conscience, which is the reason why, for instance, we try high-ranking Nazis for war crimes, and not your rank and file Nazi soldier, muchless the people of Germany.

Schindler knowingly served under the a corrupt regime, supported it as a succesful businessman, and had as much choice of opposing it as anyone has in opposing anything... and indeed had more means of opposing, or at least not supporting it, as the next guy. Nevertheless, it is pretty well universally accepted that he was not a corrupt villian himself. In fact, he is deemed a hero. And his heroics would not have been at all possible if he hadn't maintained good standing with the Nazi Regime.

IMO, heroes are defined by their deeds, as individuals, and not by at-a-glance oversimplifications, such as which side of a given political or ideological line they stand on.

I've been told by some anti-reg supporters that AF were government lackeys and always had been; maintaining consistency with their view of pro-reg Yanks... not all of whom are IM (not that he's SO bad himself).

Naturally, I agree with you that AF were heroes, who, while being ever mindful of Canadain society, were never mere lackeys. There was never any doubt of this in my mind. And I think this of them for the same reason that I think there are many pro-regs (and anti-regs) who remain heroes of the highest order, ie. because their deeds merit it.

I just wish we could go back to the good old days, of real heroes, like Paibok and Kl'rt.

- Le Messor
"Those were the days when men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri."
- Douglas Adams

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

I just wish we could go back to the good old days, of real heroes, like Paibok and Kl'rt.

- Le Messor
"Those were the days when men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri."
- Douglas Adams

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I KNEW IT!! FURTHER EVIDENCE!! SKRULL SKRULL SKRULL!!