Crackity Jones' Discovery Of Alpha Flight

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

Was Rouleau the first or second artist? Another artist came on who was more cartoony - I found that more bearable.
Keep in mind, when I say bad - I mean by the standard I'd expect and hope from Marvel.

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Rouleau was the final artist, whose art was actually disliked more by the general readership than Clark's who opened the series, which just goes to prove art is personal.
And again that shows that your expectations and hope differ from everyone elses.

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We got, what, 20 issues? That was more than enough time to inject some personality, besides a one dimensional piece of cardboard.

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It wasn't 20 issues of Murmur though.
At some point I'll have a count of the actual panels she appears in and the amount of words she actually says.
Her personality was ignored at the sake of Mac/Heather/Puck etc's. Which I agree with.

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Right, everyone changes. But not so drastically, usually, without it being:
- A major event in their life
- Mental illness

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And her husband being blown up in front of her wasn't major?

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He had the personality of a rock.
And that's insulting some of my pet rocks I had in my youth!

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He had no personality at all, for the very reason I've mentioned with regards to Murmur.
Stan Lee has had more lines in Marvel Comics than Earthmover.

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Redundant can easily exist. I thought Shaman and Talisman, were pretty much the same. But they each stuck out. Aurora and Northstar are the same, but they stuck out.

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Northstar and Aurora were introduced at the same time though so no redundancy.
Talisman was essentially a carbon copy of Shaman.

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Personality!

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Personality needs time to develop.

Earthmover had two guest appearances in the pages of Wolverine.
Did Shaman have a personality based on just Uncanny X-Men #120-121? No, he definitely didn't.
You have to apply the same rule to both characters.

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Really? Earthmover? Over Snowbird? Shaman? Talisman? Aurora? Northstar?

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No, Wyre over all 5 of those.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Um... Yes, it will be fixed.

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I'm not sure what you're referring to here as it definitely doesn't get fixed, just never mentioned again...

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Someone posted it in an X-Factor thread somewhere else, and I thought I was dreaming for a minute: I mean, a mix of X-Factor and Alpha Flight? I don't see it ever happening, but I GOT SUPER EXCITED FOR A SECOND because I thought Marvel really loved me and was going to make allllll my comic dreams come true.:(

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You may like #107... Or at least the cover.

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Originally Posted by Phil

Earthmover had two guest appearances in the pages of Wolverine.
Did Shaman have a personality based on just Uncanny X-Men #120-121? No, he definitely didn't.
You have to apply the same rule to both characters.

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I was late in reading his appearances but I'd heard the hate for him prior to doing so.

When I did read them, I didn't really get it. He's not a terrible character by any means. I guess he felt a little random, and maybe shoe-horned, but not to the degree that he should be dismissed entirely.

I certainly enjoyed him more than any of the noobs in volume 2. Or 3, for that matter (although I believe that Yukon Jack had potential. There, I said it).

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Um... Yes, it will be fixed.
And, he shows up alive later.

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Then dies again.
And comes back.
And croaks.
But returns.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Is Mac the all-time leader in resurrections? Is there a stat for that?

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

I have no womanly charm. Even when I try it's ruined by me either sneezing, tripping over myself and falling, partially walking into a wall or doorway, freaking out over a bug, a panic attack, a paper cut, accidental work-related injury, a lack of good depth perception, or saying the wrong, stupidest thing at the wrong time (is there EVER a right time to say something stupid?).

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Oh, you're human? Pleased to meet you. ;-)

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

I have no womanly charm. Even when I try it's ruined by saying the wrong, stupidest thing at the wrong time (is there EVER a right time to say something stupid?).

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Are you Heather? :)

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Originally Posted by Phil

It wasn't 20 issues of Murmur though. At some point I'll have a count of the actual panels she appears in and the amount of words she actually says. Her personality was ignored at the sake of Mac/Heather/Puck etc's. Which I agree with.

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True, but if you're going to throw a new character at us - why not do what Byrne did? Spend an issue focusing on her so the readers have something to associate her with. Some reason to like her, or dislike her (and by dislike her, I mean because she's such a ***** or whatever - sort of like M. A lot of people dislike her, but for all the right reasons - because she's so stand off'ish, and that's a part of her personality and charm, if you will!)

At least, with Radius, I felt like he got a lot of development, showing how overly cocky he was, and he was clearly over compensating...

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Originally Posted by Phil

And her husband being blown up in front of her wasn't major?

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It was. But it's not like she threw on her costume and then lost all her common sense right after. He died in issue #12. Heather seems to go through a complete change many, many, many issues later (a little over a year, in issues).

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Originally Posted by Phil

Personality needs time to develop.

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I agree. But sometimes you can define a character in a single issue, if you do it right.

There was 20 issues. And it never happened. Other than "Don't you dare touch me!" type attitude.

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Originally Posted by Phil

Did Shaman have a personality based on just Uncanny X-Men #120-121? No, he definitely didn't.
You have to apply the same rule to both characters.

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120 he was a shadow. 121 was his first full appearance. So naturally, no personality is developed in the first appearance. But in the original, he got a personality pretty quick. Especially when Talisman was introduced.

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Originally Posted by Phil

No, Wyre over all 5 of those.

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Okay, you prefer Wyre to all those original members I mentioned? Phil, something is wrong with you! I mean it's expected of me, but not normal people...!

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Originally Posted by TSOG

Then dies again.
And comes back.
And croaks.
But returns.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Is Mac the all-time leader in resurrections? Is there a stat for that?

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Him and Jean certainly have a lot in common. Deaths. Alternate versions. Clones.

I wonder who leads in this...

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Originally Posted by TSOG

Then dies again.
And comes back.
And croaks.
But returns.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Is Mac the all-time leader in resurrections? Is there a stat for that?

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Poor Mac. :( It sucks when your fave is treated the worst out of all the team members and only lives, initially, for 13 issues.

I think Le Messor was answering my question about whether or not Gary Cody was really dead.

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

Are you Heather? :)

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*gasp*!
BITE YOUR TONGUE, Tawmis!

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Originally Posted by Phil

Hate to say I told you so... :(

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You said I might not like it, you never said it was going to be worst thing EVER.
It wasn't just the Mac stuff that got to me.
It was Heather and her stupid thought bubbles of how awful Mac was (on the anniversary of his death?) and then making out with Jeffries. I don't think that could have been written any worse.

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Originally Posted by TSOG

Oh, you're human? Pleased to meet you. ;-)

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Yes, that I am.
And nice to meet you, TSOG! :D

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

True, but if you're going to throw a new character at us - why not do what Byrne did? Spend an issue focusing on her so the readers have something to associate her with.

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Because had they done that with single new characters the series would have been cancelled 4 issues in.
Byrne had lots of negative comments about the fact that the team wasn't a team for the first 11 issues and that was in the early 80's.
To spend a whole issue of a team book focused on a single new character in the late 90's would have caused outrage.

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At least, with Radius, I felt like he got a lot of development, showing how overly cocky he was, and he was clearly over compensating...

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Because he got more panels.
Had Murmur had the same development at the expense of him we'd be calling Radius a pointless, vapid rip-off rather than her.

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It was. But it's not like she threw on her costume and then lost all her common sense right after. He died in issue #12. Heather seems to go through a complete change many, many, many issues later (a little over a year, in issues).

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She did throw on the costume pretty soon after, definitely in Byrne's run.
Just not to the extent Mantlo took it to.
I'm not defending the changes he did make, but some changes would have been natural.

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I agree. But sometimes you can define a character in a single issue, if you do it right.

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Definitely.

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There was 20 issues. And it never happened. Other than "Don't you dare touch me!" type attitude.

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Again, for reasons mentioned above.
Would we have been happier if Murmur had had more coverage than Heather & Puck?

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120 he was a shadow. 121 was his first full appearance. So naturally, no personality is developed in the first appearance.

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And Earthmover had pretty much the equivalent panel time in Wolverine #179 as Shaman had in #120, and then in Wolverine #180 as Shaman had in #121.
By the time he got to Vol.3 he was a speechless cameo and referred to as "Guy whose name I've forgotten." (paraphrased)

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Okay, you prefer Wyre to all those original members I mentioned? Phil, something is wrong with you! I mean it's expected of me, but not normal people...!

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I was first exposed to comics in the 90's... Take that as you will.

Anyway, Volume 2 is well off of Crackity's radar right now, so we should probably take this to another thread...

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

It wasn't just the Mac stuff that got to me.
It was Heather and her stupid thought bubbles of how awful Mac was (on the anniversary of his death?) and then making out with Jeffries. I don't think that could have been written any worse.

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Yeah...She was awful quick to accept it, eh?

Often when you about a someone being arrested for a murder that had been investigated, his or her close relatives will say something like "I can't believe it! (S)he would never do such a thing!"

Not Mantlo Heather though! She hops right on board with the notion!

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Originally Posted by TSOG

Yeah...She was awful quick to accept it, eh?

Often when you about a someone being arrested for a murder that had been investigated, his or her close relatives will say something like "I can't believe it! (S)he would never do such a thing!"

Not Mantlo Heather though! She hops right on board with the notion!

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YESSSS.
And wtf @ her finding out Wolverine loved her and then being all, "DOILOVEWOLVERINETOO?? MAYBEICOULD."
Shut up, Heather. Just. Shut. Up. Just do not think. You're horrible at it.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

(is there EVER a right time to say something stupid?).

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When it's funny?

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Originally Posted by Phil

I'm not sure what you're referring to here as it definitely doesn't get fixed, just never mentioned again...

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Hmm... I thought it had been retconned out later (CJ - I was referring to the Mac stuff). Don't they decide that they don't believe it or something?
It was never a strong retcon, but I thought it happened?

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Originally Posted by TSOG

Is Mac the all-time leader in resurrections? Is there a stat for that?

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They're measured in Megajeans.

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Originally Posted by Phil

She did throw on the costume pretty soon after, definitely in Byrne's run.

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There was a panel where she draped it over her body, 'I don't know what I'm doing, really. Reminiscing?' but she never actually wore it in Byrne's run.

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Originally Posted by TSOG

Often when you about a someone being arrested for a murder that had been investigated, his or her close relatives will say something like "I can't believe it! (S)he would never do such a thing!"

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I'm remembering... something... I read aaaages ago, which was talking about tropes in fiction, and they say something like 'and now the woman believes her beloved husband of many years is an evil bad guy because the nasty man with the scar and the eyepatch said so'.

~ Le Messor
"She was always the quiet type, but... she never told me she was a mime!"
~ 'Weird Al' Yankovic

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

You said I might not like it, you never said it was going to be worst thing EVER.
It wasn't just the Mac stuff that got to me.
It was Heather and her stupid thought bubbles of how awful Mac was (on the anniversary of his death?) and then making out with Jeffries. I don't think that could have been written any worse.

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Thank you. That scene was what made me really start to despise Jeffries, and I never really got over that. I have always felt that their relationship was too forced.

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

Thank you. That scene was what made me really start to despise Jeffries, and I never really got over that. I have always felt that their relationship was too forced.

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I know, I just kind of, you know, in my head, pretend that #52 didn't happen.
There was nothing right about that issue at all.
NOTHING. :(

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

When it's funny?

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Oh, yeah. I'll leave that to you, Le Messor.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Hmm... I thought it had been retconned out later (CJ - I was referring to the Mac stuff).

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Sorry, I thought you were talking about whether or not Gary Cody was dead.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

They're measured in Megajeans.

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Aww! hahahahaha!

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

YESSSS.
And wtf @ her finding out Wolverine loved her and then being all, "DOILOVEWOLVERINETOO?? MAYBEICOULD."
Shut up, Heather. Just. Shut. Up. Just do not think. You're horrible at it.

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I agree. Heather was ruined as soon as she put that costume on.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

There was a panel where she draped it over her body, 'I don't know what I'm doing, really. Reminiscing?' but she never actually wore it in Byrne's run.

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Thank you. I recalled that scene where she drapes it on in front of a mirror. And I was pretty sure she never actually put it on during Byrne's run. I am just at work and couldn't confirm for sure. :)

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

Thank you. That scene was what made me really start to despise Jeffries, and I never really got over that. I have always felt that their relationship was too forced.

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I never liked the character. Other than when he first appeared and made the Box armor for Bochs.

I will say, however, I did like how he could "shape" metal and his brother (since I know Crackity is past this issue) could shape flesh. I thought that was a great contrast between the two characters. I really liked that. And that was a Bill story! So that proves he could tell a good story and did have some good ideas!

I am still recovering from #52 before moving forward.
It's like that nasty cough syrup my mom used to make me take when I was real little.
It would give me shivers and nausea and make me salivate from its nastiness. And I would have that taste in my mouth forever no matter how much beverage I'd wash it down with.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

I am so blasted pissed at #52.
MAKE NOTE OF THIS: #52 was the WORST ALPHA FLIGHT ISSUE EVER.

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I'm sad that it's not just me.

CJ, I haven't gotten how to do the multiple "reply with quotes" like everybody else, but all the comments posted about # 52 (and the warning that Phil mentioned) indicate just how off-base the MANTLO era is. I stopped believing any of the MANTLO era happened with this issue: it was just a comic that got published pretty much on time. No amount of "Dark Guardian"-residue could explain all the things that Heather did, especially since she was integrally-involved with helping Mac establish the team! And Mac "creating" BEDLAM from a murderous convict (who is both referred to as a man and shown to be a woman, in the same issue)...

I'm also not that familiar with Chuck "Earthmover" Moss and I'm pretty sure they are not the same character, but wasn't one of the Asguardian-enhanced humans in THE GIFT named "Earthmover"?

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

I'm sad that it's not just me.

CJ, I haven't gotten how to do the multiple "reply with quotes" like everybody else, but all the comments posted about # 52 (and the warning that Phil mentioned) indicate just how off-base the MANTLO era is. I stopped believing any of the MANTLO era happened with this issue: it was just a comic that got published pretty much on time. No amount of "Dark Guardian"-residue could explain all the things that Heather did, especially since she was integrally-involved with helping Mac establish the team! And Mac "creating" BEDLAM from a murderous convict (who is both referred to as a man and shown to be a woman, in the same issue)...

I'm also not that familiar with Chuck "Earthmover" Moss and I'm pretty sure they are not the same character, but wasn't one of the Asguardian-enhanced humans in THE GIFT named "Earthmover"?

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Are you going to cry (again) with me?
My misery would LOVE some company along the way...:(

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Are you going to cry (again) with me?
My misery would LOVE some company along the way...:(

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No, I get mad when inane stuff happens and people are supposed to just take it. As mentioned, over 22 issues of this stuff...MARVEL must've known what it was publishing. At a time when DC comics was publishing WATCHMEN and THE DARK KNIGHT, Marvel was putting out AF# 52-53/the Mantlo era and Shooter's SECRET WARS. Now, I know everything can't be the epitome of sequential storytelling, but when you have Aurora bouncing back-and-forth between Ross' purple-and-white outfit and the Byrne-designed white-and-yellow outfit, for no obvious/stated reason, somebody isn't paying attention (or just doesn't care enough). When you have a member of a group that is supposedly part of a super-secret division of the Ministry of Defense revealing her identity (Heather in AF# 30), especially at the time when she didn't have any "superpower" to protect herself, you're just asking for trouble.

BTW, everybody calls Northstar "Beaubier" in AF# 41, but did Jean-Paul originally compete professionally/in the Olympics as "Martin" or "Beaubier" (see Byrne issue of Northstar's origin)?

In AF# 30, Box realizes that the team isn't really making it with just 1 omni-jet, but nobody does anything to correct this problem...which probably would be fairly easy to do since Roger and Madison had something to go by.

Puck weighs more than Heather, yet Aurora carries Puck and Northstar carries Heather going after the Hulk (AF# 29); not only was Aurora not-exceptionally-strong to begin with, the real Aurora was recovering from cracked/bruised ribs at the time.

Pestilence beats AF handily: 1 vs. 6 (Aurora, Northstar, Vindicator, Puck, Box, Shaman...with Snowbird out of it, Thompson spewing nonsense, and Talisman manipulating things), then Pestilence controls most of The GREAT BEASTS!

Didn't happen...and ya can't make me believe it happened!

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

There was a panel where she draped it over her body, 'I don't know what I'm doing, really. Reminiscing?' but she never actually wore it in Byrne's run.

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

Thank you. I recalled that scene where she drapes it on in front of a mirror. And I was pretty sure she never actually put it on during Byrne's run. I am just at work and couldn't confirm for sure. :)

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That's the scene I'm on about.
It shows that the idea is there in the character's mind so it hasn't come from nowhere; Mantlo just took it to the extreme...

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

BTW, everybody calls Northstar "Beaubier" in AF# 41, but did Jean-Paul originally compete professionally/in the Olympics as "Martin" or "Beaubier" (see Byrne issue of Northstar's origin)?

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I was under the impression (from the Byrne run) that he was performing long before he found out he was a "Beaubier". In fact, isn't that how Mac found him? I'll have to go back and look, but I KNOW he was performing before he found out he was a Beaubier because Mac made the comment to him about not wanting the ladies' attention or some junk and it had a panel of him signing autographs, I think.

Also, another thing that I'm unsure about is: Wasn't Aurora only supposed to speak French (or English with a heavy French accent) when she slipped into JM mode?
Either she's constantly been traumatized and in JM mode most of Mantlo's run or that's another screw up on Mantlo's part. Because she is written to speak with the accent almost all the time now.

http://alphaflight.net/attachment.ph...7&d=1402143649

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

CJ, I haven't gotten how to do the multiple "reply with quotes" like everybody else,

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Hard way:
Hit 'reply with quote' and copy everything inside the box you get.
Easy way:
Hit the little speech bubble with open quotes " and a plus sign; keep hitting those until you've collected all the posts you want to quote (gotta catch 'em all!) and then hit 'reply with quote'; they'll all appear inside the box you get.

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

I'm also not that familiar with Chuck "Earthmover" Moss and I'm pretty sure they are not the same character, but wasn't one of the Asguardian-enhanced humans in THE GIFT named "Earthmover"?

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Confirmed, but her name had a hyphen.

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

At a time when DC comics was publishing WATCHMEN and THE DARK KNIGHT, Marvel was putting out AF# 52-53/the Mantlo era and Shooter's SECRET WARS.

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Gotta be honest; I'd rather read Mantlo's AF than Watchmen or TDK.

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

BTW, everybody calls Northstar "Beaubier" in AF# 41, but did Jean-Paul originally compete professionally/in the Olympics as "Martin" or "Beaubier" (see Byrne issue of Northstar's origin)?

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If by 'everybody' you mean the people around him, in that origin issue he instantly snatched up the name Beaubier, saying he had no real connection to the Martins.
If you include the general public, that IS a hole.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Also, another thing that I'm unsure about is: Wasn't Aurora only supposed to speak French (or English with a heavy French accent) when she slipped into JM mode? Either she's constantly been traumatized and in JM mode most of Mantlo's run or that's another screw up on Mantlo's part.

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She started to develop a third personality with a heavy accent in Byrne's run. Mantlo just took that and, well, didn't do well with it.
OR: look at what you just said. Aren't you constantly traumatised in Mantlo's run?
(Or, do you mean JM only speaks French? I'm pretty sure of the three twins, only Northstar / JP only spoke French, and he learned English sometime between his origin and his first appearance.)

~ Le Messor
Lawyer: "Mr. Slatery, you went on a rather elaborate honeymoon, didn't you?"
Mr. Slatery: "I went to Europe, Sir."
Lawyer: "And you took your new wife?"
~ allegedly a real lawyer's questions. Allegedly.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

If by 'everybody' you mean the people around him, in that origin issue he instantly snatched up the name Beaubier, saying he had no real connection to the Martins.
If you include the general public, that IS a hole.

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I assumed he meant general public. And it IS a hole.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

She started to develop a third personality with a heavy accent in Byrne's run. Mantlo just took that and, well, didn't do well with it.
OR: look at what you just said. Aren't you constantly traumatised in Mantlo's run?
(Or, do you mean JM only speaks French? I'm pretty sure of the three twins, only Northstar / JP only spoke French, and he learned English sometime between his origin and his first appearance.) I

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I am confused. I thought the third personality was mentioned during Mantlo's run?
And, yes! See? I AM traumatized because I cannot even remember.
And didn't she speak French, or English with a heavy accent, when she slipped into her JM personality? I thought that was mentioned by her brother and Walter (and Mac) a few times during Byrne's AND Mantlo's run (and the fact that it was mentioned in Mantlo's run makes it even more messed up because she was, and is, CONSTANTLY speaking English with a French accent.)?
That was my question (I think?).

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

I am confused. I thought the third personality was mentioned during Mantlo's run?

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I don't remember, and am not inclined to find out. ;0
It did FIRST come up in Byrne's run; #20 or so, when she and Sas were going to Tamarind Island to visit Lil.

When Aurora got traumatised (during Byrne's run), sometimes JM would slip out speaking French (#3, I believe) ; but I don't think that meant JM couldn't speak English (she's a teacher at a Canadian private school; and if JM didn't know English, where did Aurora learn it?) or that Aurora couldn't speak French. Just that JM slipped into her most comfortable language.

~ LM

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

I don't remember, and am not inclined to find out. ;0
It did FIRST come up in Byrne's run; #20 or so, when she and Sas were going to Tamarind Island to visit Lil.

When Aurora got traumatised (during Byrne's run), sometimes JM would slip out speaking French (#3, I believe) ; but I don't think that meant JM couldn't speak English (she's a teacher at a Canadian private school; and if JM didn't know English, where did Aurora learn it?) or that Aurora couldn't speak French. Just that JM slipped into her most comfortable language.

~ LM

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Ah. Yeah, I wasn't asking if JM could speak English or Aurora could speak French. That part never crossed my mind.
I just recall it being mentioned that when she started speaking French (or with the accent) it was noted by others that she was in her JM personality. :D

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Originally Posted by Phil

http://alphaflight.net/attachment.ph...7&d=1402143649

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I was close!

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

CJ, I haven't gotten how to do the multiple "reply with quotes" like everybody else

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The way I do it - is the messages I want to reply to, I right click the "Reply With Quote" and open it in another tab in Firefox. Then just copy and paste it into the message and reply to each segment.

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

And Mac "creating" BEDLAM from a murderous convict (who is both referred to as a man and shown to be a woman, in the same issue)...

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I missed the man/woman thing...

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

No, I get mad when inane stuff happens and people are supposed to just take it. As mentioned, over 22 issues of this stuff...MARVEL must've known what it was publishing. At a time when DC comics was publishing WATCHMEN and THE DARK KNIGHT, Marvel was putting out AF# 52-53/the Mantlo era and Shooter's SECRET WARS.

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Now hold up. You are NOT saying that Secret Wars was on par with Mantlo's worse times in AF, are you? Secret Wars II, sure. But the original Secret Wars? I believe that was some golden writing - especially getting a chance to see some villains get some development.

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

Pestilence beats AF handily: 1 vs. 6 (Aurora, Northstar, Vindicator, Puck, Box, Shaman...with Snowbird out of it, Thompson spewing nonsense, and Talisman manipulating things), then Pestilence controls most of The GREAT BEASTS!
Didn't happen...and ya can't make me believe it happened!

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Pestilence beating Alpha Flight, I was okay with. Doctor Doom frequently beats the Fantastic Four. Magneto has beaten every version of the X-Men. It was harder for me to believe that Pestilence was able to control the Great Beasts - however, at the time I was okay with it. It weakened the Great Beasts, especially since Tundra alone took all of Alpha Flight to beat him. But by the time the Pestilence story came about, AF had gone a few rounds with the Great Beasts - all of them at once - and beat them. So they were already coming across weaker than their original creation. I actually liked Pestilence as a villain, as well as his origin. I didn't care for the end result, and how it related to Snowbird.

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

You are NOT saying that Secret Wars was on par with Mantlo's worse times in AF, are you?

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I think he was listing Secret Wars as a good thing, a benchmark to judge Mantlo's AF against.

I haven't taken issue with AF's villains, or their situations with them, and I think it's because I cannot even get past how the team functions as a team and individual members, so I haven't even made it to what I think of their villains.
Like Tawmis, I didn't mind Pestilence so much because I don't mind cheesy and quirky/crazy villains. Even if they seem like silly and useless villains.
The way AF behaves, and how Heather hogs the show with her stupid thought bubbles, that's where I am at.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

I was close!

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You, and Garry, were both absolutely correct!
His famous ski winnings were definitely not as Beaubier.

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Originally Posted by Phil

You, and Garry, were both absolutely correct!
His famous ski winnings were definitely not as Beaubier.

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I was correct about the name, but I don't think I was correct about the scene with Mac. But I was close enough. :D
Thanks for putting up the link, Phil! :D

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

I think he was listing Secret Wars as a good thing, a benchmark to judge Mantlo's AF against.

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Oh. Okay, then that I would understand. My brain nearly exploded. (Don't worry, not much there to explode...)

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

I haven't taken issue with AF's villains, or their situations with them, and I think it's because I cannot even get past how the team functions as a team and individual members, so I haven't even made it to what I think of their villains. Like Tawmis, I didn't mind Pestilence so much because I don't mind cheesy and quirky/crazy villains. Even if they seem like silly and useless villains. The way AF behaves, and how Heather hogs the show with her stupid thought bubbles, that's where I am at.

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See, as I said before, I actually liked Pestilence. He came with a cool little origin. He was pretty much crazy. He was a legitimate threat to the Alpha Flight team (fatally so, it would appear, to some members... /sigh)

He's actually a villain, I wouldn't mind seeing resurface again, with a good story.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Hard way:
Hit 'reply with quote' and copy everything inside the box you get.
Easy way:
Hit the little speech bubble with open quotes " and a plus sign; keep hitting those until you've collected all the posts you want to quote (gotta catch 'em all!) and then hit 'reply with quote'; they'll all appear inside the box you get.



Confirmed, but her name had a hyphen.



Gotta be honest; I'd rather read Mantlo's AF than Watchmen or TDK.

Both Watchmen and TDK are books I would really have to be of a mind to re-read, but as far as an example of superb craftsmenship in every aspect (writing, illustration, lettering, concept) few have utilized sequential storytelling to this degree. Neither the Mantlo run nor what I've read of Secret Wars comes close...for me. G/A-F



If by 'everybody' you mean the people around him, in that origin issue he instantly snatched up the name Beaubier, saying he had no real connection to the Martins.
If you include the general public, that IS a hole.

I meant the ski-fan and Kara Killgrave, in particular, although the irate ski-pro pretty much covers 'everybody', as far as I remembered. G/A-F



She started to develop a third personality with a heavy accent in Byrne's run. Mantlo just took that and, well, didn't do well with it.
OR: look at what you just said. Aren't you constantly traumatised in Mantlo's run?

...
~ Le Messor
Lawyer: "Mr. Slatery, you went on a rather elaborate honeymoon, didn't you?"
Mr. Slatery: "I went to Europe, Sir."
Lawyer: "And you took your new wife?"
~ allegedly a real lawyer's questions. Allegedly.

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I know I'm constantly traumatized by the Mantlo run. G/A-F

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

The way I do it - is the messages I want to reply to, I right click the "Reply With Quote" and open it in another tab in Firefox. Then just copy and paste it into the message and reply to each segment.



I missed the man/woman thing...

I'll check the exact pages when I go home....G/A-F

Now hold up. You are NOT saying that Secret Wars was on par with Mantlo's worse times in AF, are you? Secret Wars II, sure. But the original Secret Wars? I believe that was some golden writing - especially getting a chance to see some villains get some development.

(1) A good example of sequential storytelling (2) Stands the test of time (3) Makes sense. Whichever ones fit, so be it.


Pestilence beating Alpha Flight, I was okay with. Doctor Doom frequently beats the Fantastic Four. Magneto has beaten every version of the X-Men. It was harder for me to believe that Pestilence was able to control the Great Beasts - however, at the time I was okay with it. It weakened the Great Beasts, especially since Tundra alone took all of Alpha Flight to beat him. But by the time the Pestilence story came about, AF had gone a few rounds with the Great Beasts - all of them at once - and beat them. So they were already coming across weaker than their original creation. I actually liked Pestilence as a villain, as well as his origin. I didn't care for the end result, and how it related to Snowbird.

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This is where it's a stretch for me. I like Pestilence as a villain, but he's not Doctor Doom and he's not Magneto: he's a guy who had been buried unmoving in the ground for over 100 years who (thanks to Talisman) hijacked the essense of Snowbird-and-Doug's baby...who could cry, sure, but walk and talk? Tundra consumed his host; Ranaq consumed his host. And they most likely were just earthly-manifestations of the Beasts. From a story-cohesiveness aspect, Pestilence paying for his (incorrect) presumptuousness would have mirrored nicely Talisman paying for her incorrect presumptuousness.

Alpha Flight suffered greatly when they fought the GREAT BEASTS in # 24: Somon tricked them, and ambushed Talisman, Aurora, and Northstar; only Walter's sacrifice revived them.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Hard way:
Hit 'reply with quote' and copy everything inside the box you get.

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(Then, I forgot to add: paste that into the next 'reply with quote' box you get; lather, rinse, repeat.)
Here's a screenshot to show you the coding I use to split up people's quotes:
Attachment 4158

If I'm doing several quotes from the same post, I usually copy and paste </quote>, three empty lines, <quote=person;postnumber> (with square brackets, not triangle) and paste it in where needed. I'll put my stuff in the middle line of the three.

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

Both Watchmen and TDK are books I would really have to be of a mind to re-read, but as far as an example of superb craftsmenship in every aspect (writing, illustration, lettering, concept)

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They are good examples of the craft... But not concept. At least, not Watchmen. It's Moore's usual concept of 'I'll take a bunch of somebody else's characters, add a rape scene, then sit back and wait for my next Eisner'. That's not a good concept, not to me.

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

the essense of Snowbird-and-Doug's baby...who could cry, sure, but walk and talk?

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I'm okay with it, at least as far as comic book science goes. It's a body being controlled by a developed mind, and while some of the musculature wouldn't be developed... close enough. It's also a possession - I doubt Regan could turn her head 360 degrees, but the demon inside her could!