Crackity Jones' Discovery Of Alpha Flight

And if you all are going to hijack my thread, then you'd better consider me a part of your AlphaFlight.net family.
I mean it!

:razz:

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

And if you all are going to hijack my thread, then you'd better consider me a part of your AlphaFlight.net family.
I mean it!

:razz:

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How is it hijacking? :) It's still about Alpha Flight. And it's currently (mostly about) Heather, who you voiced a strong dislike for. So I'd say it's pretty on topic with what you talked about. {northstar}

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

How is it hijacking? :) It's still about Alpha Flight. And it's currently (mostly about) Heather, who you voiced a strong dislike for. So I'd say it's pretty on topic with what you talked about. {northstar}

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*sigh*
Tawmis. You KNOW WHAT I MEAN.
It'snotaboutME.

You already remind me of one of my brothers.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

*sigh*
Tawmis. You KNOW WHAT I MEAN.
You already remind me of one of my brothers.

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I can't tell if that's good or bad! =P~

{guardian} > {guardian2}

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

I think it does: Roger and Mr. Jeffries used remnants of Delphine Courtney to build Heather's suit.

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:) Good point.
And if it had been brought up more than about once in the entire run, it might've even helped!

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

Only if the writer were deliberately trying to do something totally opposite/out-of-character to what had been established. Originally, Heather helped Mac create the team; the Mantlo era repeatedly states that she was just a housewife and had nothing to do with it.

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:D Yes, you're right... no out-of-characterness there! :)

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

Please! Vindicator killing Snowbird was bad enough. Having somebody else do it...

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I know, right?

~ LM

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

I can't tell if that's good or bad! =P~

{guardian} > {guardian2}

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It's neither. And either.
And as for the rest, I was only teasing. :D

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

We saw him in Uncanny X-Men #109 (I believe it was?), and he made some mistakes (shot Colossus, reflected and struck Storm, I believe it was). But nothing too serious.

That's just it - I don't even see her as a better leader than Mac. While we didn't get to see Mac lead Alpha Flight much - we saw him with Uncanny X-Men #120 - 121, and granted - he did some questionable action, but he was following the commands of his country to bring Wolverine back.

We see them again, in Uncanny X-Men #139 (I believe?) through 140 against the Wendigo, and he actually does a solid job here (from what I remember).

Then we see him in Alpha Flight #1, against Tundra, and he's rocking it as a leader. We see it again, off an on through the 12 issues, before he sacrifices himself.

Heather puts on the suit in Alpha Flight #32.
Heather kills Snowbird in Alpha Flight #44.

That's 13 issues, before she's a better leader, in killing a member.

Mac, who we can say had the 2 issues in UXM (120/121), 139 & 140, and we shall say about 6 of the issues of the original volume before his demise - means he was a "leader" for 10 issues, without killing a single member.

Other than himself, making the ultimate sacrifice.

So I am not seeing how Heather was even a better leader than Mac. :)

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I'd add the X-Men/Alpha Flight 2-parter to that, which I believe takes place between the early issues of Alpha Flight.

The mistake of reflecting a shot off Colossus isn't even a leadership thing. It's a lack of familiarity with his suit. He wasn't leading anybody.

Meanwhile, Heather felt like she was on a rampage. "All right, who's next? Bochs? C'mere, curly!"

By the time she'd had 20 or so issues to herself, she was down to two other full-fledged members, who must have been getting a little nervous by this point.

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Originally Posted by TSOG

I'd add the X-Men/Alpha Flight 2-parter to that, which I believe takes place between the early issues of Alpha Flight.
The mistake of reflecting a shot off Colossus isn't even a leadership thing. It's a lack of familiarity with his suit. He wasn't leading anybody.
Meanwhile, Heather felt like she was on a rampage. "All right, who's next? Bochs? C'mere, curly!"
By the time she'd had 20 or so issues to herself, she was down to two other full-fledged members, who must have been getting a little nervous by this point.

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Well I didn't count the UXM #109 in my total for Mac's leadership, since it was just him. Was just showing his first appearance, that yes, he made a slight mistake. But certainly didn't kill anyone. Unlike Heather, who didn't make a mistake, and rather than give Snowbird a chance to fight for her soul - decided to put a plasma blast through her back and body.

I mean, I get why it was happening. I sincerely believe that Bill had every intention of replacing the original Alpha Flight members, with the new ones he was creating, such as Purple Girl, Manikin, etc. I believe that was his end goal - was to write from a clean sheet of characters, which I think he does better with (for example ROM and MICRONAUTS - even though, by the time both were into the long run - got very strange and difficult to read as well).

I just don't understand how people think Heather was a better leader. Granted, she eventually does some good stuff (as noted, with the World Tour thing). But that doesn't remove what she did previous to that, to her own team mates.

Although to be fair, as much as I love Snowbird (which is why Heather's choice offends me so much, LOL) - Snowbird did sort of rip out Water's heart... So...

Okay, I've taken my replies to the Mac/Heather thing over to http://alphaflight.net/showthread.ph...r-s-Leadership as it's starting to reach WAY beyond the point that Crackity is up to in the series, and because it's kinda taking away focus.

Feel free to carry on there, but be warned: It will cover anything published up till Amazing X-Men #8.

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Originally Posted by Phil

Okay, I've taken my replies to the Mac/Heather thing over to http://alphaflight.net/showthread.ph...r-s-Leadership as it's starting to reach WAY beyond the point that Crackity is up to in the series, and because it's kinda taking away focus.

Feel free to carry on there, but be warned: It will cover anything published up till Amazing X-Men #8.

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I am never going to catch up. I'm still on volume 1 and will be for a long time. :(

From the up's & downs in quality of what comes after Vol.1 that's not necessarily a bad thing...

Wait. It gets worse than Mantlo's run?

It's debatable...
The runs after Mantlo's are a lot shorter so the negative parts don't drag on as long. Each run has a few WTF moments though.
And there's some shocking 90's art.
Hudnall does a good job of clearing up Mantlo's messes though and actually tries to make the team a bit more recognizable.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Wait. It gets worse than Mantlo's run?

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Llan the Sorcerer.

'nuff said.

=;

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Originally Posted by Phil

It's debatable...
The runs after Mantlo's are a lot shorter so the negative parts don't drag on as long. Each run has a few WTF moments though.
And there's some shocking 90's art. Hudnall does a good job of clearing up Mantlo's messes though and actually tries to make the team a bit more recognizable.

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Some of the art does get pretty bad. And sadly, I think it was during Hudnall's time, where it was probably the most troublesome.

Even later - How they draw Sasquatch later, especially during the World Tour - and how he has Wolverine's hair cut...

It kills me.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

I am never going to catch up. I'm still on volume 1 and will be for a long time. :(

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Be glad! At least you have a lot of Alpha Flight to look forward to, unlike the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

Llan the Sorcerer.

'nuff said.

=;

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I enjoyed the Llan storyline, and the character himself.
Hudnall pulled a lot of AF back together and connected a lot of random Mantlo plot points in a nice tidy package that acknowledged Alpha's mystical and family roots through Llan.
The art was the worst part.

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Originally Posted by Phil

I enjoyed the Llan storyline, and the character himself. Hudnall pulled a lot of AF back together and connected a lot of random Mantlo plot points in a nice tidy package that acknowledged Alpha's mystical and family roots through Llan. The art was the worst part.

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Now you're just punking me about liking that entire storyline. LOL

I appreciate Hundall pulling the team back together (I agree, he did this!) - but like the story with the whole city goes nuts, the little girl with the knife who goes crazy, all these people dead, laying everywhere... Just seemed like ... worse than the Jason Goes To Hell movie... Or Jason X (where he goes to space)... I just couldn't buy it. The art, certainly didn't help - and I believe this was the worse art in AF's history (later I had issues with how they'd draw Sas during World Tour, but even that doesn't compare to the art during this time)...

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

And if you all are going to hijack my thread, then you'd better consider me a part of your AlphaFlight.net family.
I mean it!

:razz:

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You are, most definitely.

BTW, I agree with Le Messor about mentioning the origins of Heather's first suit (something that Heather herself should have been keenly aware of before putting it on).

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

Now you're just punking me about liking that entire storyline. LOL

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I don't mind it either, tbh. Thought it's far from my favourite story.

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

I appreciate Hundall pulling the team back together (I agree, he did this!) - but like the story with the whole city goes nuts, the little girl with the knife who goes crazy, all these people dead, laying everywhere... Just seemed like ... worse than the Jason Goes To Hell movie... Or Jason X (where he goes to space)...

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I've never seen those two movies. Just some of the highlights from Jason X. The horror aspects were a mandate from above.

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

I just couldn't buy it. The art, certainly didn't help - and I believe this was the worse art in AF's history...

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I agree that it was the worst art in AF history... and that some later people drew Sas like they'd never seen him before; but I think the rest of the art on those runs was okay.
Just okay. Not good, but serviceable.

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

Le Messor about mentioning the origins of Heather's first suit (something that Heather herself should have been keenly aware of before putting it on).

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Heather especially.

~ Le Messor
Mum, can Hobbes and I rent a VCR and a tape tonight?
Mum: I don't think so Calvin. It's a school night.
Calvin: What if we got an education tape?
Mum: Like what?
Calvin: "Cannibal Stewardess Vixens Unchained."

I liked Jason X.

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

Be glad! At least you have a lot of Alpha Flight to look forward to, unlike the rest of us.

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I am hoping it's something to be glad about.
I haven't had any reading time this week, but hopefully soon. I am hoping I can breeze through these coming Not Alpha issues, so that I can get to the issues where there are at least some of the original members back (AS they were, mainly).

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

RE:Llan the Sorcerer Storyline.
I don't mind it either, tbh. Thought it's far from my favourite story.

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Now you're all just punking me! LOL

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

I've never seen those two movies. Just some of the highlights from Jason X. The horror aspects were a mandate from above.

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I enjoy the original 5 or 6 Friday the 13th's for what they were. Brainless slasher flicks. But when Jason goes to Hell and fights there... and then when he gets shot into space, and starts killing people on a space station... then they haven't just jumped the shark, they have jumped the solar system...

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

I agree that it was the worst art in AF history... and that some later people drew Sas like they'd never seen him before; but I think the rest of the art on those runs was okay.
Just okay. Not good, but serviceable.

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I agree.

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

I liked Jason X.

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Something is very wrong with you... LOL

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

I am hoping it's something to be glad about.
I haven't had any reading time this week, but hopefully soon. I am hoping I can breeze through these coming Not Alpha issues, so that I can get to the issues where there are at least some of the original members back (AS they were, mainly).

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Honestly, you do. I think you have some good reading ahead of you.

Think of it this way, most people regard Bill's run the worse of the Alpha Flight saga. So plenty of other writers come along and try to make the best of a mess, and do a pretty good job, considering the shattered pieces of Alpha Flight they were left with.

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

most people regard Bill's run the worse of the Alpha Flight saga. So plenty of other writers come along and try to make the best of a mess, and do a pretty good job, considering the shattered pieces of Alpha Flight they were left with.

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I think that Mantlo's run was the worst run of the volume simply because it was the longest.

There were shorter runs that had worse ideas/plots/execution/dialogue than Mantlo did, but because they were 8 issues long they didn't make as much of a lingering stink.

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Originally Posted by Phil

I think that Mantlo's run was the worst run of the volume simply because it was the longest.

There were shorter runs that had worse ideas/plots/execution/dialogue than Mantlo did, but because they were 8 issues long they didn't make as much of a lingering stink.

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You are the best, Phil.
THE BEST.

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

Now you're all just punking me! LOL

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The more I think about the Llan storyline, the more I remember that you're right, I didn't like it that much.
... OTOH, I also remember loving Hudnall's writing; mostly because I devoured #74 (which was part of said storyline) even though I hated the art.

I even started trying to redraw it myself, but never got anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

I enjoy the original 5 or 6 Friday the 13th's for what they were. Brainless slasher flicks. But when Jason goes to Hell and fights there... and then when he gets shot into space, and starts killing people on a space station... then they haven't just jumped the shark, they have jumped the solar system...

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Originally Posted by Phil

I think that Mantlo's run was the worst run of the volume simply because it was the longest.
There were shorter runs that had worse ideas/plots/execution/dialogue than Mantlo did, but because they were 8 issues long they didn't make as much of a lingering stink.

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True - but those runs didn't tend to derail the characters the way Mantlo's did, either.
I don't like Nicieza's run much, but I've loved other stuff he's written. :/

~ Le Messor
"That would take hard work. Hard work which we don't have!"
~ Nostalgia Critic

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

Now you're all just punking me! LOL

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The more I think about the Llan storyline, the more I remember that you're right, I didn't like it that much.
... OTOH, I also remember loving Hudnall's writing; mostly because I devoured #74 (which was part of said storyline) even though I hated the art.

I even started trying to redraw it myself, but never got anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

I enjoy the original 5 or 6 Friday the 13th's for what they were. Brainless slasher flicks. But when Jason goes to Hell and fights there... and then when he gets shot into space, and starts killing people on a space station... then they haven't just jumped the shark, they have jumped the solar system...

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The first 5 or 6 are all I've seen. I've never seen the one with the telekinetic girl or Jason goes to Manhattan.

Attachment 4194

Jason seems more the kind to gut a shark than jump it, but now I have the image of him on waterskis.

I've always been more of a Freddy fan... which brings us back to the DreamQueen - something CJ has to look forward to!

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Originally Posted by Phil

I think that Mantlo's run was the worst run of the volume simply because it was the longest.
There were shorter runs that had worse ideas/plots/execution/dialogue than Mantlo did, but because they were 8 issues long they didn't make as much of a lingering stink.

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True - but those runs didn't tend to derail the characters the way Mantlo's did, either.
I don't like Nicieza's run much, but I've loved other stuff he's written. :/

~ Le Messor
"That would take hard work. Hard work which we don't have!"
~ Nostalgia Critic

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

The more I think about the Llan storyline, the more I remember that you're right, I didn't like it that much.
... OTOH, I also remember loving Hudnall's writing; mostly because I devoured #74 (which was part of said storyline) even though I hated the art.
I even started trying to redraw it myself, but never got anywhere.

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See, I thought it had a good start. The two (campers?) finding the statue - and unlocking Llan. All of that I didn't mind. It was when the story got into whatever city - and there were just dead bodies everywhere, hanging over cars, hung in trees, bleeding in the streets, bodies half way through a window, etc etc - and Alpha Flight seemed unphased. I think again, this might be the case similar to Heather - this time, however, not bad story telling, but perhaps foul art. The art, and what the artist did, made it unbelievable to me. And Llan's design may have also played into a part of it all, as well. Having read the Hundall interview, he seemed to have issues with the artist, which may have impaired his own story telling. Hard to tell. But to me, that was some of the worse Alpha Flight story telling (again, perhaps because of art "telling" the story) in the original volume for me. (Also things like Gamma Flight randomly showing up seemed so out of place, from what I remember...)

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

True - but those runs didn't tend to derail the characters the way Mantlo's did, either.
I don't like Nicieza's run much, but I've loved other stuff he's written. :/

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Yeah, Fabian is a writing God to me. I need to look and see what issues Fabian wrote in Alpha Flight.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

True - but those runs didn't tend to derail the characters the way Mantlo's did, either.
I don't like Nicieza's run much, but I've loved other stuff he's written. :/

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For me, Nicieza's run derailed one character in particular, ruining him for me for life, crapping over Byrne's writing more than anything Mantlo ever did.

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

Yeah, Fabian is a writing God to me. I need to look and see what issues Fabian wrote in Alpha Flight.

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#87 - #101

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Originally Posted by Phil

For me, Nicieza's run derailed one character in particular, ruining him for me for life, crapping over Byrne's writing more than anything Mantlo ever did.

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Originally Posted by Phil

#87 - #101

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Crikey. I need to re-read Alpha Flight again... Because I can't figure out who you're talking about.
I am in the middle of re-reading the Squadron Supreme LS (Omnibus, which is amazing!). So perhaps after that I will dig through AFv1 again. I tried AFv2 a few weeks back, and choked.

I read #53 tonight, and I forgot to read the annuals (AGAIN), so I'm hoping that in the annuals is where all these new characters come from, like Goblyn...and cannot even recall the others' names. Because if they didn't pop up in the annuals, I have NO IDEA where the hell they came from because it went from #52 to Bedlam kidnapping all of Heather Flight and a bunch of characters I'd never heard of.
I ALMOST gave up on Alpha Flight today, guys.
I had never been so close to giving up on the series as I was today. The beginning of #53 just...I couldn't handle it.
But I forced myself to read on (it took me, like, an hour to get through that issue because of all the breaks I took, because: it was awful).
I'm probably as glad as I'll ever be, during Mantlo's run, that I didn't give up because Heather *kind of* redeemed herself. At last partially. Not a TON, but it was SOMETHING.
She apologized for thinking tons of bad things about Mac.
And then she had a tender moment with Jeffries (D'oh!), but still. It's more than I've gotten from her in ALLLLL of Mantlo's run so far.

It's the small things, I guess.

I can honestly say I will NEVER read Mantlo's run again. NEVER. I don't care how golden Northstar's snark towards Heather was in the beginning, it's just been an awful ride so far.
And it just keeps getting crazier and making less and less sense.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

I read #53 tonight, and I forgot to read the annuals (AGAIN), so I'm hoping that in the annuals is where all these new characters come from, like Goblyn...and cannot even recall the others' names.

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I actually end up liking Goblyn. She, to me, was the "prequel" to Penance (from Generation X, not New Warriors).

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Because if they didn't pop up in the annuals, I have NO IDEA where the hell they came from because it went from #52 to Bedlam kidnapping all of Heather Flight and a bunch of characters I'd never heard of.

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I can't recall if they appeared in the annuals first. I think they were just newly introduced characters.

I just checked:
[table] [TR] [TD="class: characterInfoboxSplitLabelLeft"]First Appearance
[/TD] [TD="class: characterInfoboxSplitLabelRight"]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: characterInfoboxSplitValueLeft"]Alpha Flight #48
[/TD] [TD="class: characterInfoboxSplitValueRight"]
[/TD] [/TR] [/table]

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

I ALMOST gave up on Alpha Flight today, guys.

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Carry on. You must make it through the Llan the Sorcerer storyline. :) I need to know your view on that overly long story...

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

I can't recall if they appeared in the annuals first. I think they were just newly introduced characters.

I just checked:
[table] [TR] [TD="class: characterInfoboxSplitLabelLeft"]First Appearance[/TD] [TD="class: characterInfoboxSplitLabelRight"]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: characterInfoboxSplitValueLeft"]Alpha Flight #48[/TD] [TD="class: characterInfoboxSplitValueRight"]
[/TD] [/TR] [/table]

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WTF. That's a lie. I read #48 not that long ago! I would recall these characters. Sweet Hell. Now I have to go look again. That's like being pissed on twice. UGH.

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

Carry on. You must make it through the Llan the Sorcerer storyline. :) I need to know your view on that overly long story...

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Oh, I will report, trust me.

Ah! They must've been the people that Scramble was keeping in the containers. Got it.

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

WTF. That's a lie. I read #48 not that long ago! I would recall these characters. Sweet Hell. Now I have to go look again. That's like being pissed on twice. UGH.

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Are you suggesting that everything on the internet is not the truth!?

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

And then she had a tender moment with Jeffries (D'oh!), but still.

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Hey! Leave a tender moment alone!

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Originally Posted by Crackity Jones

Ah! They must've been the people that Scramble was keeping in the containers. Got it.

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That sounds about right. They definitely weren't introduced in the annuals. (Honestly, though, I never had the introduction problem you're having; I wonder why?)

Also, I ended up naming my cat after Goblyn!

~ Le Messor
Mum: Calvin, how did you break this dish?
Calvin: I was carrying too much and it dropped.
Mum: Your problem is you've got no common sense.
Calvin: I've got plenty of common sense. I just choose to ignore it.

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

Crikey. I need to re-read Alpha Flight again... Because I can't figure out who you're talking about.

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The character who's not in Mantlo's run but is in Nicieza's.
And obviously, not Windshear.

I know who you mean, Phil.