This made me think - who (characters or even teams), do you consider to be "A" list (as well as "B" and "C" list characters and teams)?
And this shouldn't be based off YOUR own preferences - but an over all feeling, of the comic community.
This made me think - who (characters or even teams), do you consider to be "A" list (as well as "B" and "C" list characters and teams)?
And this shouldn't be based off YOUR own preferences - but an over all feeling, of the comic community.
Alpha Flight: A-list. I know this because they are the greatest super-hero team the world has ever known.
Bunch of other superheroes: B-list, C-list, etc.
Superheroes you haven't heard of: D-list.
That's how I see it.
You would seriously rank Alpha Flight as an A List? Again, not as your personal view - but a general view of how "the comic book world" would perceive Alpha Flight?
I would seriously rank Alpha Flight as A-list. I just did. And I am part of the comic book world! Aren't all the members on this board? That's my final answer. A-list.
Your final answer? Rob, I think you should use a lifeline and phone a friend. (Phone me! I'll agree with you!)
In all seriousness, and NOT to blow off the question put out there by Tawmis, but this is a really hard question to answer. Why? Because too many of what would probably be considered A-List heroes, are those who have been force-fed to us to the point where they make me want to puke.
I miss the days when a great writer would be given multiple years to write a good character (even if that character were brand-new, or rarely used up to this point) and allow that great writing (and hopefully the art to match) to catapult that character into greatness.
I like Wolverine, I really do. At least, i like him up until the very early eighties or so, by the mid-eighties they were already mangling the character, and nowadays we have Wolverine (or Cap, or Iron Man, or Spidey) on every team book there is! And i don't like that.
So, give me the B, C, and D listers, any day of the week, as long as you give me a good writer who cares about them.
And don't even get me STARTED on how a Team Book should be about the interactions between the characters, both in-costume and out, Not about how many multiple universe-destroying bad guys we can punch in the face.
This is true to some degree. But for example, they have tried to force SPIDER-WOMAN down our throats (and I have the original Spider-Woman series way back when!) - and there's no way I'd rank her an A List type character. I'd rank her towards B, or even C.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
True. But this is because somebody in Marvel with clout (Benids, i think?) really likes the character. Be nice to have a Flight-lover with that sort of clout...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawmis
It would. And though I said, "I don't think Spider-Woman is an A List character" (I meant in general). I'd bet if you asked most (Marvel or DC) collectors, if they thought Spider-Woman was an "A List" character - they would (I think) say that she is not on par with the likes of Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
Which is why I think rplass is missing the point of the thread, when I said:Quote:
Originally Posted by rplass
And this shouldn't be based off YOUR own preferences - but an over all feeling, of the comic community.
But meh, he said it's his final answer, and why argue with a moderator... (This seems to be a motif with me lately on here...)
It's not secret - I love Adam-X, the character. Do I think he's an A List character? No. Not even close. I would love if he was in the lime light and loved and adored by many. But he's not. He's lucky to be on the D list characters, if not E list characters.
I was hoping for some fun discussion to see why folks ranked characters and teams where - but that's CLEARLY not going to happen.
I think this thread is going to go nowhere and fast - like it already has, so you know what, can we just get this thread locked, deleted, whatever?
Thanks.
Instead of characters, which there are simply too many to list, I've decided to rank teams.
Tried to list them realistically and not emotionally... if I were to list them that way, Alpha Flight would be #1 with a bullet.
Here goes:
A-List
The Avengers
X-Men
B-List
Fantastic Four
Guardians of the Galaxy (at this time due to the movie hype)
The Inhumans
New Mutants
C-List
The Defenders
Alpha Flight
Heroes for Hire
D-List
All remaining teams (ie. Squadron Supreme, The Champions, The Invaders, Thunderbolts, Runaways, etc.)
It all just depends on what you consider these arbitrary terms to mean. Here's how I break it down, it's all about public recognition:
A-List: These are the characters that everyone knows of, your Spider-Mans, your Captains America, your Wolverines. The ones that have, generally through exposure in movies and television and whatnot, entered the public consciousness. If they're not remotely in the same recognition league as DC's trinity, they're probably not A-listers, though there's always wiggle room. If they've had a movie within the last 15 years or so, they are probably A-listers, unless it was a total flop and sometimes even then: Daredevil and the Fantastic Four go here. Iron Man, Thor, and maybeBlack Widow would probably be the most recent characters to rise to A-list status. Also included would be teams like the Avengers and X-Men, though not necessarily most of their individual members.
B-List: The comic book A-listers. These are the ones that are hot stuff, big name characters to comic book readers, but not necessarily anyone else. If you asked some random people on the street who these characters are, there is a decent chance they would have an idea, but it certainly wouldn't be shocking if they didn't. Dr. Strange, Spider-Woman, Carol Danvers and the like, solid B-listers all. Also included would be most of the X-Men and Avengers who've had significant media exposure in the last few years.
C-List: The comic book characters who aren't the most popular, but are still pretty widely known to readers. Most people outside of comics would not know who these characters are. This is where Alpha Flight falls, along with other such teams like the Thunderbolts and the Runaways. Most second-string Avengers and X-Men would go here, also. The large majority of my favourite characters are ones I would classify as C-listers.
D-List: The minor characters, the ones who wouldn't make the cut if you were assembling iconic lineups of C-list teams. To use Alpha Flight as a handy reference point we're all familiar with, this is where characters like Flashback, Smart Alec, and Wyre would go. Not necessarily one-offs, and they can even have received significant development in their few appearances, but at the end of the day, not well known at all and that important in the grand scheme of things.
Z-List: Stitch. St. Elmo. Delphine Courtney. Usually one-off characters (though not always) that literally no one who hasn't read the comics they appear in will have heard of. One of my favourite tropes is when writers pull Z-list characters out of limbo and throw them into the spotlight, like that one issue of Avengers Initiative with one-off Dazzler villains Dr. Sax and Johnny Guitar.
But these things are really all about personal interpretation, there are no hard-and-fast rules other than the ones everyone makes up for themselves~
I fondly remember that issue. Just goes to show what a decent writer can do with even poor characters.Quote:
that one issue of Avengers Initiative with one-off Dazzler villains Dr. Sax and Johnny Guitar.
I don't do A. B. C stuff. If you look at how popular a character is, some characters like AF would be higher, She-Hulk lower. Look at sales, AF lower, She-Hulk even lower. How many people know the characters, She-Hulk higher, AF lower. Means nothing to me, ratings who's ABC, as Marvel will push "C or D-Level" characters like She-Hulk and Spider-Girl again and again on one person's insistence. So it doesn't matter what "level" you are perceived at, but who at Marvel wants that character to be exposed.
I'd argue that She-Hulk is more popular and sells better than AF, but yeah the whole A-Z List is extremely subjective and comes down to the individual - It was never Marvel that used the term, just Kyle & Yost in their personal interview.
I know lots of people use the term of "A/B/C List" characters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Yeah, and they all likely mean different things by the terms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawmis
It's kind of funny - the newest episode of my podcast (Comic Relief Podcast) - just finished editing this weekend - and Maico (my co-host) uses the "A/B/C" list character references (when talking about Superior Foes of Spider-Man).
Heh.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/07/mo...edit.html?_r=0
“As they see characters that were C- and D-level in the comics but can open a movie, everything becomes new again,” said Marc Tyler Nobleman, an author who has written about the origins of comics publishing. “You can take almost anybody,” he said, “and make a big movie out of it.”
Articles like that, are why i spread things like this: "Support Artists, Not Companies! Creator-owned comics are where the real art is at!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawmis
But is creator owned comics really where the real art is at?Quote:
Originally Posted by Flightpath07
There's PLENTY of talented people who work for Marvel and DC, who do amazing work. (There's a BUNCH of them that are not what _I_ would call "talented" that work at Marvel too, though).
For me, I just go where I find a good story and good art. Whether that's "creator owned, indie comic" or if that's in Marvel, DC, or Image or whatever.
I was talking more about these points from the article:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawmis
Note: This is quite different than the way that Marvel addresses their care for Bill Mantlo. Two sides to every story?Quote:
As Michael explained in a telephone interview, the focus on his brother has encouraged the studio to reconsider its obligations to him. “The more often Bill’s name gets mentioned, and the more often he is given public credit for something that he did, the easier it is for me to go to Marvel and say, ‘You might want to consider raising your offer.’ ”
Once again, a VERY different story than the much more benevolent one that Marvel tells.Quote:
he did not know a movie was planned until comics fans contacted him on Facebook a few years ago.
Michael said he had then contacted Marvel executives and told them, “If you’re making a film with Rocket Raccoon, you need to talk to me about the use of that character.”
“The negotiation started at that point,” he said, “and we managed to secure a very nice contract for Bill.”
Marvel declined to comment for this article, as did DC.
All I am saying is this; artists don't have these issues, if they keep and maintain their own rights to their own creations.Quote:
While movies like “Guardians of the Galaxy” represent a certain triumph of multimedia synergy, they are also a reminder that as comic-book characters increasingly provide the basis for lucrative film franchises, these characters’ creators must take their own measures to prevent their rights from being crushed in Hollywood’s engines.
At certain publishing companies, writers and artists are given at least some ownership of the properties they help generate. But very often, these creations are regarded as works for hire, owned by corporations that have little or no further need to reward the people who dreamed them up.
With the biggest comics publishers supplying content to two major studios — Marvel is owned by Walt Disney, and DC is a unit of Warner Bros. — writers and artists accept that credit and compensation for their contributions to films come only with the expenditure of their blood, sweat and tears, if at all.
“My attorney is very good,” Michael said. “I’m not going to say Marvel came to me and opened up their hearts and their purse strings.”
Actually, I really like your descriptions of the lists. They make a lot of sense, and give you good reasons to put people on those levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by MistressMerr
~ Le Messor
"I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you."