Who Or What Is Nemesis ?

Just re-read #1 again, and I got to thinking about Nemesis. She says that she has been to Hell twice. The first Nemesis, could be considered as having gone to hell, in the sense that she lived a **** life whilst trying to croak Deadly Ernest. The second (Jane ? ) went and fought alongside the Alpha Task Force whilst dead (?) against Carcaas (#125-126 (?)) So that raises a few questions. Is Nemesis a role that continues, no matter what happens to the host, cos a new host will have the memories of previous hosts. Is this a third Nemesis whose untold history includes two trips to Mephistos house. Or has the original returned. I'm bloody confused and would welcome some thoughts or theories.

My guess is that she is like a "Spirit of Vengance" type. She could say, take on the body of one who has richious vengance to to be exactd. That would be a pretty cool way to handle it. That way too, she could never really "die"

If you think about it, she could have a HUGE backstory if she is some kind of 'spirit of vengence'. Who knows how long she may have been kicking around in different incarnations, sort of like DC's The Spectre. I would love to see her history if that were the case. Imagine the story possibilities.

What kind of powers does she have? Is it just the sword?

It would seem she has either hightened agility, or is very well trained. Her sword id mystical by nature. It is supposively only 1 atom thick, and near indistructable. For instace, she went toe to toe in a "sword fight" with The Wrecker of the Wrecking crew. His prybar being of asgardian nature. He was shocked when he did not break her sword.

Is the second Nemesis's backstory ever explained? We all saw the first Nemesis crumbled to dust after destroying Deadly Ernest but I don't remember much about the second incarnation - is she meant to be the same character??? Is it ever explained? And do we ever see her without her mask?

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Originally Posted by beetleblack

Is the second Nemesis's backstory ever explained?

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No.

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Originally Posted by beetleblack

We all saw the first Nemesis crumbled to dust after destroying Deadly Ernest but I don't remember much about the second incarnation - is she meant to be the same character???

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I think she's the same Nemesis. In a like stated above Spirits of Vengeance kinda way.

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Originally Posted by beetleblack

Is it ever explained? And do we ever see her without her mask?

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No she just showed up in a Gamma Flight, no one seemed to care. And no she hasn't been seen fully without her mask.

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Originally Posted by Ben

It would seem she has either hightened agility, or is very well trained. Her sword id mystical by nature. It is supposively only 1 atom thick, and near indistructable. For instace, she went toe to toe in a "sword fight" with The Wrecker of the Wrecking crew. His prybar being of asgardian nature. He was shocked when he did not break her sword.

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cool thanx

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Originally Posted by beetleblack

Is the second Nemesis's backstory ever explained? We all saw the first Nemesis crumbled to dust after destroying Deadly Ernest but I don't remember much about the second incarnation - is she meant to be the same character??? Is it ever explained? And do we ever see her without her mask?

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The second Nemesis was called Jane during one story by Diamond Lil. During the Wyre/Secret Empire arc, it was shown that she has close ties to Wildchild and that at one point she led the Children of The Night (?) a Subteranean group made up mainly of kids.. Rok the new leader would seem to have usurped her power while she was mucking about with Gamm Flight or somthing.

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Originally Posted by HavokThePowerful

What kind of powers does she have? Is it just the sword?

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The first Nemesis could also fly. I always thought it was cool to have a flying swordswoman with an unbreakable sword that could cut through anything. Think of all the possible cool maneuvers..... :P

She is definately Alpha material, just a little hint to her history ? :-)

Here is my theory on Nemesis. I am neither claiming assuredness nor proof, because, let's face it, there ain't none:

In her orig appeance, she either blatantly or subtly told Northstar (I don't have my issues nearby, so I can't verify which it was) that her mother was killed by Deadly Earnest (and possibly suggested taht Earnest was her father, I'm not sure), and that she's been after him ever since. it was also suggested that she's been stalking him since his first kill - supposedly her mother.... that much we know (and if we don't someone will correct me :D , but I believe I got the general gist of it...)

I think that Ben is partially correct; that Nemesis IS a vengeance spirit, but a specific one. I think that 'the woman who would become Nemesis' was given great abilities by some form of Divine entity (safe bet would be the Goddess that she took her code from), and a mystically-driven sword (hence how it can be it's given dimensions and strength, as well as how she was able to revive the members of Alpha in 32; she needed the sword to do that). However, the Gods (or whatever) frowns on giving mortals immortality (just read any mythology to find out why), so <unnamed whatever> keeps her mortal-yet-hard-to-kill (I have yet to see her seriously damaged, have you?). However, being mortal, she has limitations, like the fact that she dies. So <unnamed whatever> grants her the gift of transposession - a term I just invented meaning that the memories and gifts get passed onto someone younger, more verile, and -more importantly - still breathing to take on Earnest again. Now, here's where I have NO proof: my theory, based on the historical evidence, is that the spirit passes from mother to daughter, since it was the daughter of Earnest's possible first victim. Now, here we have a problem: Nemesis was originally made to exact vengeance on Deadly Earnest, only being able to die completelt when he does. Well, Death won't have him, so, no matter how often she cuts him - mystical blade or not (as proven in v.1.31) - he's still alive and kicking, except in several pieces (as again proven in v.1.30, after Scramble does the Humpty Dumpty). Even being splattered over godknows how many miles of Montreal LRT, he's still alive, just significantly thinner and more spread out, hence why Nemesis returns with Gamma Flight. But, you may ask, why did Nem I (we'll call her) crumble to dust? well, look at my earlier theory: her BODY crumbled, and only because she had used up all the life she could in that body. Now it was time to find a new one, in this case (again, according to my theory) in the form of possibly her daughter, whom we'll call 'Jane'. because it's theonly name to put on her. So why didn't her mind pass on after she 'died' during the battle with Carcass? SImple, Shaman's spell to bring them to the whatever-realm they went to bound their spirits together (same reason they didn't pass on to whereever they are destined in the Afterlife). When Shaman lifted his spell, they returned - not to their dead, but their near-dead - bodies. Thus, the most recent manifestation of Nemesis (we'll call her Nem II) was still that. However, regarding the children of the whatevertheyarecalled, that can be explained aswell: before she inherited the Nemesis spirit 'Jane' ran this group that included, among others, a very feral Kyle - who somehow managed to escape from the last time he appeared in Omega Flight. He either was there when she donned the Nemesis outfit, or just shortly after (since he didn't meantion her as anything but as Nemesis druing the Rok/Wyre/Secret Empire storyline). That's how he came to be in the second incarnation of Gamma Flight with Nemesis, and later, ALpha Flight as Weapon Omega (which makes sence, as he was the last surviving member of Omega Flight that had yet to join ALpha).

*Whew!* Did that make sence to everyone?

::Just stares in abject amazement and wonder... and agrees, because he can't do anything BUT!::

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Originally Posted by Major Mapleleaf Jr

::Just stares in abject amazement and wonder... and agrees, because he can't do anything BUT!::

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*Stands there proudly as people look at him dumbfounded*
That's, of course, assuming you had ANY CLUE what I said...

Oh, I followed it very easily. I just like how airtight it was. Didn't leave ANY room for argument. And I respect that. I've actually done a very, VERY lengthy post on the NM.net boards once on the nature of Dani Moonstar's powers, and how each of her power mutations (and let's face it, her powers have changed more than any other mutant out there) can actually be tied together in a nice, neat little package.

I am glad to see Nemesis back. I have always loved her. I hope we get to see her origin resolved. What I don't like is the device straped to her spine. This is a little like what happened to Mystique when they tried to control her. Nemesis can be made good and still keep her toughness. I hope in the future they remove the device.

Welcome aboard Nemesis,

I too quite like this character, and I really like how Lobell is working with her character.

If you want a little tidbit on her, if you didn't see the thread yet, have a look at this thread: http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?t=180

I also just uploaded my Nemesis Bio: http://www.alphaflight.net/character...sis/index.html

and should have her gallery up later tonight.

Ben

I like Nemesis to because I like a tough female character. One who is not afraid of anything. Plus I like swords and she has a nice looking costume.

Best thing about Nemesis is that she nearly puked when she sensed Major Mapleleaf approach. A hero who gets nauseous around pure goodness is funny. Not that she's a hero, her converstations with Walt show that. I just wish she and those around her didn't feel the need to mention that she's an anarchist every day. But I'm itching to hear more about her and her soulsword and such.

On another note those soulswords sure are getting common these days aren't they? Even Archangel has one.

Allan,
You said somebody would correct you.

Here I am.

Deadly Earnest's first victim was some GI who helped him out of the pit of his Origin. Nemesis' mother (according to Mantlo, not Byrne) was his wife. When he got back from the war, he killed her accidentally when she hugged him. Presumably, he'd done a few people between, tho' they've never been mentioned specifically.

In her first appearance, Nemesis mentioned 'That my soul and that of my father may be laid to rest'; there was no talk at all of her mother. Mantlo later made her father Deadly Earnest; I would love love to know what Byrne had planned for her, but I doubt even he knows that now.

The Gamma Flight Nemesis, according to the letters page at the time, was a different woman. Her costume was 'a battlesuit, but in a weird way'. However, Lobdell has said, on the forum that's been posted, they are now the same woman. (Something I always dreaded, but knew would happen eventually.) The fact that the first talks about a 'holy quest' and the third constantly reminds us she's an anarchist would be contradictory if they're the same woman.
The second's first name was given as Jane - again, on the forum, that's been explained away; 'Jane Doe'. Her real last name has to be 'St Ives', but I could believe her legally changing it; mother's maiden name, perhaps?

Powers? She can fly. That's -all- we've seen, but all three have done it.
The sword, a combination of science and sorcery, is a weapon, not a power.

The previous is all in AF for any of us to see. Pure conjecture follows:

I've always thought of as vampiric. This is conjecture, but she could be a vampire, at least Byrne's version could be.
But I've always had a vision of her stealing a portion of the powers of a vampire. So she has their taint, and some of their abilities, but not the Thirst. But I'm just romanticising.

- Le Messor
"Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist ought to have his head examined."

Who is Nemesis? Why, that's easy. It's Jean Grey. :lol:

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Powers? She can fly. That's -all- we've seen, but all three have done it.
The sword, a combination of science and sorcery, is a weapon, not a power.

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I was always under the impression that Nemesis ability to fly came from the sword and that if she didnt have the sword in her hand she wouldn't be able to fly. :-k hmmm...

In regards to her 'holy quest' and her self-espoused anarchy... could they not be related? Perhaps it is Nemesis' holy quest to bring down the evils of man-made government (a motivation that I can certainly sympathize with, considering the times we live in)? I realize that I'm reaching into left field here, but I figured I'd throw that out there.

A Holy quest implies religious belief of some sort. From her, it sounds Catholic, but it could be from any religion / domination.

An Anarchist accepts neither government nor religion.

- Le Messor
"Archaeologists will date any old thing"

You don't have to be religious per se to embark on a holy quest... spiritual? Definitely. But religious? No. There is a very big difference between the two.

A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an 'orrible ****... me.

:D

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

The Gamma Flight Nemesis, according to the letters page at the time, was a different woman. Her costume was 'a battlesuit, but in a weird way'. However, Lobdell has said, on the forum that's been posted, they are now the same woman. (Something I always dreaded, but knew would happen eventually.) The fact that the first talks about a 'holy quest' and the third constantly reminds us she's an anarchist would be contradictory if they're the same woman.

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I disagree. I think that anarchy could be viewed as a holy quest if the woman if strong enough in her beliefs. However, I doubt Lobdell is going that way. Also, I don't mind the idea that they are now the same character. In order to bring some clarity to the character, the two had to merge, I feel.

Over at the Avengers 2000 fanfic site (where I write Black Panther, cheap plug!), the writer of Alpha Flight, a great guy named Trav Hiltz explained that there was a revolving door of bearers of the Nemesis title to keep the threat of Deadly Ernest contained. It was quite an ingenius explanation, I thought. I smack myself that I didn't think of it. But, of course, Lobdell isn't going this way either. What Lobdell has portrayed so far has been intriguing and I'm sure he'll make it work.

She claims (constantly) to be an anarchist, but her characterization has been more of a nihilist, no? Actions speak louder than words.

That we know of so far.
I'm sure Nemesis has her plans.
Kinda hard to be an anarchist when you aren't in complete control of your own actions.

I find it kinda amusing that an anarchist and/or nihilist like Nemesis, with either or both of those mindsets being rather chaotic by their nature, would have to be so meticulous about her actions.

I can't see how having an anarchistic mindset must necessitate a person being chaotic. Anarchy by definition is considered living outside the dictates of others, but still behaving in a sociably accepted way. The anarchist (by their own definition) we see at G8 meetings are to my mind not anarchists at all, but poor little rich boys and girls trying to piss off mummy and daddy. Anarchist in it's purest form is that which was depicted in V for Vendetta. Controlling your own life, but not to the detriment of others. Off course it would never work, cos by nature man is selfish and self serving, which immediately makes Anarchy, like any other concept, communism, socialism, religious fundementalism, even democracy doomed to failure. Great in theory, but unworkable in practice.

Regarding Nemesis, however, her being an anarchist is somthing that is totaly out of left field. The two earlier Nemesis incarnations have been firstly driven by righteousness, as in Ernest St Ives was an abomination who should not have been. While the second was law abiding to the point of leading Gamma for the gov, without the need for mind controlling technical devices. It will be interesting to see what kind of Anarchist, Nemesis is depicted as, the pure 'V' sort or the selfish type we see at demo's.

Edited for the sake of it :P

Double posting cos I can't be doing with all that editing thing.

Speculate away, recieved this a few mins back.

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Hudnall"
Yes, I called her Jane, as in Jane Doe. I wanted her to be a mystery. But
she was not the original Nemesis. She has the original's costume, though and
has a connection that I might have played with later. But I never got the
chance.

When I asked if she was connected to the original by family he wrote the following

Yeah, she's a family member, revenging the death of her sister or something
like that. I don't remember, it's been awhile since I thought about it

Well, if MML can be an unknown brother, then why couldn't St Ives have had two daughters? :-)

I had my own ideas of Nemesis that I'll share. They are mostly invalidated by Scott's direction of the character in v3.
The Byrne Nemesis was gone. The one that appeared as leader of Gamma Flight was a new person who had somehow gained possession of the atom'thick sword. She probably got it from the government she served, whose agents had recovered the weapon.
He demonstrated particular rancor for Heather, and these hard feelings seemed beyond their competeing teams.
I thought the 2nd Nemesis was one of Heather's 6 siblings, one who resented Heather's perceived abandonment. When offered by the government, she bacame Nemesis 2 specifically to be Heather's nemesis.

I kinda like the Heather's sister explanation, but it doesn't seem to come from anywhere. Wait, she did revisit the family once, and her parents were mad at her for marrying Mac.
But I don't see that building the kind of resentment that would lead to Nemesisness. Only if she abandoned them at a time of need - which is -exactly- when she returned.

Her sword's been bothering me.
Especially in #5. I hadn't read it last week, so I nearly said that the theory that she could only fly with it couldn't be backed up; now it can.
That said, I'm gonna do something I rarely do, and refer to #31. In it, she gave Puck the sword for a while, while she kept people alive. Instead of losing life or powers, she sustained them in others, while removed from the sword - hardly the actions of somebody who can't sustain even herself without touching it.

Which makes something really stupid. When Byrne drew her, and in no way tied the powers to the sword itself, she chained the thing to her wrist. Now that she seems to depend on it to survive, she holds it loose, so people can just knock it away. That's really, really dumb.

An atoms' width blade.
Two problems with the way it's portrayed; the first is a mistake Byrne made. Most swords have a groove down the middle, a place to let the blood run off.
Nemesis' does, too. Now, they look kinda dumb without them - I've just made such a blade in computer, and it feels like it needs the detail.
However, with a blade that thin, even if it had one, even if it -could-, no way would you be able to see it. It'd be, by definition, lessn' an atom thick.

Second, could the blade really stick out of the rock like that? Wouldn't it slide -all- the way in, then slide down sideways until the handle hit the floor? The only explanation I can think of is that the rock's holding it tight, top and bottom, but I don't buy it, not with that blade.

- Le Messor
"Are we having fun yet?"
- J. Paul Grayson

VERY good points. I find myself now wondering the same things... especially about the blade being embedded in the rock. I hadn't thought of that before, but it's a perfectly logical question to ask.

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I kinda like the Heather's sister explanation, but it doesn't seem to come from anywhere. Wait, she did revisit the family once, and her parents were mad at her for marrying Mac.
But I don't see that building the kind of resentment that would lead to Nemesisness. Only if she abandoned them at a time of need - which is -exactly- when she returned.

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Heather's family is defined only as large, I think she was one of seven. I don't remember any of them being named. Heather did state circa #13 that her parents did not approve of the wedding to Mac, so she probably withdrew from her family over that.
To tie the theory into current continuity, assume the Nemesis sister is just a year younger than Heather. One Easter when she was five, Heather had cavities so got a big stuffed bunny for Easter. Nemsis got choclate eggs. The chocolate was gone in a day, but Heather carried around that stuffed bunny for years.

Thus "All the other girls got bunnies"

and the sibling rivaly began. Heather didn't have to be WRONG in leaving; "Nemesister" just needed to PERCEIVE the abandonment. Haven't we all been in this situation with family?

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Her sword's been bothering me.
Especially in #5. I hadn't read it last week, so I nearly said that the theory that she could only fly with it couldn't be backed up; now it can.
That said, I'm gonna do something I rarely do, and refer to #31. In it, she gave Puck the sword for a while, while she kept people alive. Instead of losing life or powers, she sustained them in others, while removed from the sword - hardly the actions of somebody who can't sustain even herself without touching it.

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I am of the line of thinking that this can't be the original Nemesis, the characters are just too different. Nemesis 1 obviously had a much more mystical nature than her sucessor. Which makes me think she had access to magics that allowed her to maintain the lifeforces of Ernest's victims,

From what Lobell was showing in issue #4 then Nemesis 2 is at least as old as Centenial, if not older. It may be that the sword is what maintains her vitality and grants her the powers she has. Without the sword, she quickly is reduced to the physical limits of a one hundered year old woman. Which might be more psycological than physical, for someone who is obviously very active and dependent on her strength.

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An atoms' width blade.
Two problems with the way it's portrayed; the first is a mistake Byrne made. Most swords have a groove down the middle, a place to let the blood run off.
Nemesis' does, too. Now, they look kinda dumb without them - I've just made such a blade in computer, and it feels like it needs the detail.
However, with a blade that thin, even if it had one, even if it -could-, no way would you be able to see it. It'd be, by definition, lessn' an atom thick.

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I don't think the whole blade is one atom thick, just the blade edge. All blades are natuarally thicker in the center. The combination of sorcery and science that created the blade maed it out of an magical alloy that maintains an inhumanly keen edge. I think the talk of an atom's width blade is merely hyperbole on Nemesis' part.

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Second, could the blade really stick out of the rock like that? Wouldn't it slide -all- the way in, then slide down sideways until the handle hit the floor? The only explanation I can think of is that the rock's holding it tight, top and bottom, but I don't buy it, not with that blade.

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If you throw a blade into a wooden block, it will stick in place, it won't chop the wood by itself. Nemesis' blade probably would act the same way in a block of stone. Simply because it would not have enough force behind the blade to do more than drive it'self in.

Perhaps not, but if the blade is an atom's-width thick, as she has stated (and Nemesis doesn't seem the type to engage in hyperbole of that nature), the blade would slip between the molecules of the rock until the handle hit something. That's how I gathered it, at least.

I thought of the bit about only the edge of the blade being an atom's width thick, but then Byrne described it like this:
"Invisible when scene on edge".
Which tells me that the whole blade (as she openly stated) was that thin, not just part. Either way, if it is invisible on edge, I still don't think you could put a visible groove in it - unless it's a slot right through, which isn't what's drawn and wouldn't make sense.

'Scuse me while I breathe...

- Le Messor
"As a goat herd learns his trade by goat, so a writer learns his trade by wrote."

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Originally Posted by beetleblack

Is it ever explained? And do we ever see her without her mask?

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No she just showed up in a Gamma Flight, no one seemed to care. And no she hasn't been seen fully without her mask.[/quote]


But she will be in the Dave Ross arc. I've seen the pencils. That's all I'm saying.