Nope, I never figured Northstar was gay the first time around either, although on re-reading the series the signs are there from the outset, or am I just reading things into it in retrospect?Quote:
Originally Posted by DelBubs
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Nope, I never figured Northstar was gay the first time around either, although on re-reading the series the signs are there from the outset, or am I just reading things into it in retrospect?Quote:
Originally Posted by DelBubs
The signs on Northstar's orientation were all there, but Byrne was a lot more subtle. If you didn't get it by Mantlo's crack of Northstar not objecting to tightly-dressed men around, shame on you. Byrne's hints were sly and well covered by circumstances, i.e. Northstar in Aurora's room in #1, "but this is not a man!" or Heather calling him "a toffee-nosed little--!" or Puck keeping a physical distance even while Northstar was flying him. Even UXM #121, with Aurora's statement that she was a lover, her brother was a fighter. in the late teens, there was a letter that was answered with a "cryptic yes" but the letter and question were not printed. My bet is someone figured it out and wrote to ask. If I remember the rumor mills right, everyone in the bullpen knew (he was drawn limp wristed in Crystar) but Jim Shooter did not want it openly said or acknowledged.
See that.... I don't get as a reference to homosexuality... and I really think the gay guys on the list might agree... they're still men...Quote:
Originally Posted by kozzi24
Personally I use expressions like that all the time like:
"It's hard to talk to girls."
"You're talking to me..."
"You're not a girl, you're my sister."
I think it was more THAT kind of reference. The 'he's not like a REAL man because he's my brother." NOT "He's not a man, he's gay..."
I agree with SwiftFox. That seems like reading into it with the knowledge we have now.
That's exactly as it was phrased in the #1 scene, only Aurora was talking to a mother superior type.Quote:
Personally I use expressions like that all the time like:
"It's hard to talk to girls."
"You're talking to me..."
"You're not a girl, you're my sister."
A double entendre, intentional on Byrne's part
But that's your opinion in hindsight rather than a fact, surely?Quote:
Originally Posted by kozzi24
Unless Byrne has ever stated that that line was a reference to his sexuality it can't be presumed as it being that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kozzi24
Right, but I'm not saying it because my sister is a lesbian I'm saying it because I don't think of her as regular girl.
Personally I'd pretty ticked if my sis said I wasn't a man because I was gay. And further to Phil's point, if you're not Byrne, or if he didn't tell you thats what it meant, then you don't know what meaning he had.
There were definite hints about Northstar's sexual preference in Byrne's run. Actually, through most of the series. The one that comes to mind is when JP made a comment on Aurora's personal life, and she shot back with 'You, of all people, shouldn't tell me how to live my life'.
-Mystic
The one that stood out for me at the time of reading it (rather than later when I re-read the series in hindsight) was after Walter had just come back as Wanda and there was discussion between Wanda and JP and he said how he felt after Walter had died, which implied to me that he had been in LOVE with Walter! Sadly this was never mentioned again even when Wanda became Walter again.
Btw, along with Mac coming back from the dead time and time again, I rate Wanda being transformed back into Walter a mistake (oh dear, I fear not many people will agree with me on this one, though!) - there was so much that could have been explored with Walter as Wanda which never was (we had the whole legal issue with his estate etc, but the emotional side of the character was never really picked up on - Walter seemed to accept being Wanda way too easily, there should have been more angst etc).
I agree, it was pretty bizzare, but at the same time... brilliant! It was a very different idea... As for his side of it... did you read Mako's fic?Quote:
Originally Posted by beetleblack
Well after reading the first part of Mako's Northstar and Iceman slashy saga my doctor adviced me to avoid such reading matter for a while as it made my pulse rate increase to a dangerous degree ;) Which story is this Wanda/Walter and where can I find it?Quote:
Originally Posted by SwiftFox
I'm sure you're doctor would approve of this story... I mean it's actually posted on the forum and all... it's set Vol 3, but it looks on Walt's Wanda time... it's actually very cute...Quote:
Originally Posted by beetleblack
http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?t=267
[EDIT: OMG!! This post brought me up to Alpha rank!! Wooo!]
Cool, I shall certainly check it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwiftFox
Oh and btw, welcome to the team Swifty ;)
Mantlo "established" that Northstar was in love with Walter as of #29, when Aurora is on the couch crying over Walt's loss, and Northstar cries with her and Aurora says, "oh you too" and NS says "yes"
That was when I picked up on NS's sexuality. Alpha was my absolute favorite book at that time and through #50 (sinking like a stone thereafter Nicienza came on board.) I had read the series and related appearances several times before #29, (the only comic series I have read as many or more times in Marvel's Star Wars.)
I had questioned some of the remarks without picking up on their meaning. The scene in #29 only confirmed the theory I had built, mostly from #7's appearance of the rather froppish Raymond (and NS's surprise that he had a daughter), Heather's "Toffee-nosed" outburst (Northstar was no ass kisser, so what could THAT mean?) his surprise at Clementine's exuberant kiss, and Rogue's surprise "ALL his secrets" in the XM/AF LS.
The real problem I had with #29 is that I find it inconcevable that NS was in love with or even had a crush on Walter. By direct reference to the books, the spell in #24 would not have worked without someone who hated Langkowski, and if the Artificer wanted to merely divide AF's forces, demanding someone who hated the "prisoner" among his six RESCUERS in the remoteness would have stretched the odds beyond anything such an aged character would attempt unless he could sense one of them DID hate Langkowski.
As for my inferences: NS would certainly admire the body around to look at, but the personality factor would kill any "love." This explanation also fits with Northstar's remark to Wanda that he preferred her as the man she was.
NS was a pointy-eared, homosexually-inclined ORPHAN. He's a defensive and angry adult. Don't tell me he was anything but victim for class bullies growing up. Look at Langkowski: football player, wanting Hulk super-power enough to experiement on himself intentionally, and his ridicule of Puck in AF #1 as well as other examples. He is a CLASSIC bully. The artificer's statement that Langkowski could be saved only by one of great power, one who loved him and one who hated him was definitely truth, and makes sense on a primoral (sp) sense. If someone with power, hatred and love go to bat for a soul, then that sould has had enough consequence on others in life to be worthy of saving. Northstar hated him, and probably has the attitude, "Why are all the great looking ones *******s?!"
You can debate whether the remark of "but he's not a man" is right or fair, but I've reread the run enough times to recognize it as one of the first of many subtle hints about Northstar's arientation. At least that line from #1 is within context of the characters and had another meaning. Mantlo's treatment of the situation was at best bad, and at worst, mean.
It could mean what toffee-nosed means... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by kozzi24
"toffee-nosed - snobbish; pretentiously superior "
"toffee-nosed
adjective UK INFORMAL DISAPPROVING
People who are toffee-nosed consider themselves to be better than other people, especially than people of a lower social class:
- He's a toffee-nosed git - take no notice of him!"
I have found no corelation between the term toffee-nosed and homosexuality. However the definition above CERTAINLY applies to Jean-Paul. Picking that line as a reference to homosexuality seems to over-searching/reading into things and is really a pretty nasty inferrence given what you put in brackets.
There is another hint about Northstar's orientation in issue 10. During the origin section when Mac is talking to him, he says "You had it all--money, fame, women...Although the women don't seem to have interested you overmuch."
well I can tell you that I first learned which way JP swings when AF #106 made the front page of the Honolulu Star Bulletin. I had seen AF in the comic shop but had never really given it much thought. I was already collecting 20+ titles at the time and was daunted financially there...lol damn college poverty. The issue itself got blah reviews in the article for being to fast paced and not really in depth considering it was a 'major milestone for a Marvel Comics character'
I remember the article also had a positive light with saying Marvel was doing good by showing different sides of current culture and that acceptance isn't a bad thing. I wish I still had the bloody thing but alas. =/ I only wish that Marvel had gone further with it instead of saying 'look we have a gay guy too!'
Then there you go.
We have fact, speculation over.
That was all people wanted to see.
Cheers Jay.
So Northstars gay then ? What about his boyfriend ?
Not to be argumentative by any means... but what exactly did that solve? There was no dispute over whether JP was gay or that Byrne intended that..Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
My only argument is that just because JP said "Hi" and not "Hello" in issue 14, that wasn't a sign of his homosexuality. I mean that is an obvious exaggeration but some of the speculations have seemed almost that ridiculous.
Don't take things the wrong way mate, I'm with you on the points you raised, and was trying to argue the case that people can't just say stuff now in hindsight, as evidenced by my earlier comments in the thread.
I wasn't trying to solve anything, so apologies if I expressed that poorly.
I just mean that on that particular issue, we have Byrne's comments that it was intentionally written as a sign, and didn't want this whole thing spirally out of control.
LOL Phil No apologies needed. It's so hard in pure text sometimes to get the right attitude across and all. I think I came across the wrong way there..
I think I missed your point overall... thats what I get for posting when my mind is elsewhere (Spider-man 2 for Xbox...)
:) Alll is good.
I want more concrete proof so we have no doubt at all - I'd like to see Northstar carrying an oversized pink handbag like the one Tinky-Winky carries around in The Teletubbies, wherever he goes, that should do it ;)
Learn something new every day...!
My point was that Byrne was choosing words carefully to to hint to Northstar's sexual identity, and the article seems to prove that. Byrne was dropping hints where he could. I'm not saying I figured it out from the toffee nosed remark, but put that with all the other hints that were in existence by the time Mantlo's obvious disdain came into play, and it was all there for me, particularly with the number of times I had read Byrne's run.Quote:
It could mean what toffee-nosed means...
"toffee-nosed - snobbish; pretentiously superior "
"toffee-nosed
adjective UK INFORMAL DISAPPROVING
People who are toffee-nosed consider themselves to be better than other people, especially than people of a lower social class:
- He's a toffee-nosed git - take no notice of him!"
I had taken the toffee nose comment as one of those hints, unaware of meaning in UK or elsewhere. The closest term I had heard was of someone beeing a brownnose or brown noser, meaning that they kissed the ass of bosses, teachers, etc, just do be liked or better grade, raise. That sense certainly is not in NS's personality.
This was the era of the Comics Code, and Byrne had to be sly about this if he wanted to get it approved. That's why there was no concrete evidence that JP was gay. Northstar was never the flamboyant effete stereotype. His sex life was honsetly nobody's damned business and he made that quite clear. Adding those qualities into the character obviously made him much more interesting for Byrne to write.Quote:
Originally Posted by beetleblack
As for Tinky Winky, no he is not gay, he's just very British :)
I think you'd find there's a few of us on here that'd disagree with that :PQuote:
Originally Posted by jay042
LMAO believe it or not Phil the 'tinky winky is very british' thing was a response here in the states to the gay claims...heaven forbid that parents let their toddlers watch a flaming homosexual on the telly...in the states? good god! the very idea! </sarcasm>
If he'd have carried a bowler hat, umbrella and briefcase I'd understand :P
^^ just remember where the assertion came up in, in the first... ;)
As for the actual thread...Seeing as I have only begun collecting AF with this volumn, I would only be adding to the 'it's all so clear to me in hindsight!' bit. But then me best mate back in Hawai'i is a drag queen who would probably shoot me if I did so...said mate is also a bigger comic book nut then me...and that's saying quite a bit. ;)
So is thee any chance that like straight couples we will see Northstar going around with a boyfriend or even have a wedding with a guy? We get to see female and male couples in comics all the time so why not a male male couple.
In a word: no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richv1
It's rumoured that Marvel are scared of gay male characters now because they aren't child friendly enough, so that is why we are seeing a lot less of JP. Apparently lesbians are okay though.
Lesbians are ok? Like Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn(I know she is bi but close enough).
Which other lesbian couple are around?
Maybe I'm reading more into it than what there actually is, but I believe Xian whatever and Danielle Moonstar could be a partenership ??
I was actually thinking in terms of British children's programing. I got the impression that UK kids had a lot of unbelivably saccharine programming over the years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Tinky Winky I don't think has really been shown as gay or straight. Its a big creature that has no sexuality at all. And who cares what color he wears or carries.
Just Xian, who is interested in a coffee shop manager. She was established as gay in X-Force, during an appearance in the 50's or 60's, after the "road trip" bitQuote:
Originally Posted by DelBubs
But would't it be nice to see a company take a chance and have a male gay couple in a comic. Give Northstar a full time boyfriend/lover. Have them actually kiss and hold hands. Things like that.
Wildstorm have already done that with Apollo and the Midnighter in the Authority. They are even the adopted parents of Jenny Quantum. The problem Marvel has is that they are trying to pul a younger audience into comics. I think they probably need too, gotta have an audience in the future. I think you may see Northstar in a relationship in the Ultimate line, but not in a mainstream Marvel book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richv1
I heard about Apollo ans Midnighter but I don't read that series. I have always thought of them as a cheap version of the JLA even though I know a lot of people seem to think they are better than the JLA.
A limited series in the Marvel Knights heading might show Northstar in a relationship.