The Good Stuff, Post-Byrne

There seems to be a minor consensus around here that most of Alpha Flight post-Byrne was nothing more than a shoddy bastardisation of Byrne's work. However, we also know there are some great plots, stories and characters in the later series', but we only look at the negative values - Heather donning the suit, the Razaar/Puck angle, the multiple deaths/returns of Mac, the X-Files-esqueness of Volume 2, pretty much ALL of Volume 3.

So my question is: what are the GOOD stuff to come out of the post-Byrne Alpha Flight era? What do you think is the best parts of Alpha Flight in the last 20 years, post-Byrne?

After Byrne I've always viewed the AF that followed in this way.

Mantlo : Hated most of it, could never go with Mignola's depictions and post #50 the only good stuff to come out was the Pestilence stories. After Mantlo got the team to what he wanted, the storylines for a year or more where pretty good then he lost it around #63. I almost gave up at that point.

Hudnall : The concept was good, but Calimee's art and the discontinuity (sometimes on the same page) didn't really set my heart a pacing and I guess AF came pretty close to being totally destroyed as a serious concept.

Nicieza : A brief, but important tenure IMO. 'Building Blocks' really breathed new life into the team and the stories were enjoyable and palatable. He made the team believable and also managed to re-establish that human aspect that had been missing since Byrne left.

Lobdell : His first run was really good upto that !!! issue, then it got depressing again, I think Marvel editorial really did a good thing getting shot when they did, I don't think Lobdell could really go any where after that.

Furman ; Next to Byrne prolly my fave AF writer, good stories, but hampered by all that Infinity stuff that must have limited what he wanted to do with the team. I would really like to see him do AF again and with Dreamwave having financial problems at present, who's to say he won't one day :-)

Vol's 2&3 I don't consider AF so I won't go into that :shock:

I did enjoy the Dreamqueen saga. It was a servicable story and one I could enjoy. I have to think about the rest though. I sit here thinking to myself "why did I buy it if it stunk so bad?" There has to be a reason.

I did think there were some good post-Byrne stories.

I agree with DelBubs that the Pestilence storyline was good. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it was the best thing about Mantlo's run. As a matter of fact, this particular plot development had the blessing of none other than John Byrne himself! I have the feeling that he would have gone on to do this story himself if he had stayed on the book.

I also liked:
The two Alpha Flight Annuals of the Volume 1 run
The Alpha Flight Special with "First Flight"
The second AF/X-Men two-issue mini-series, (although the first one, "The Gift" still rules!) :D
Rom #56 - 58, (and why wasn't Mantlo this good in the regular AF book?)
Wolverine #143 (with the return of Snowbird -- I was glad to see her back, in spite of the fact that it didn't make sense)
Wolverine #172 and 179
Black Panther #43 (with brief but good AF appearance)
and X-Men Unlimited #45, (with the birth of the Hudson baby -- and will someone PLEASE give her a name?).

Hopefully, someday, we'll get a Volume 4 that will be as good as these issues. Or even better! :lol:

1st Flight was interesting. I liked Furman. Hudnall did OK. Up and down the rest were.

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Originally Posted by birdygirl

I did think there were some good post-Byrne stories.

I also liked:
The two Alpha Flight Annuals of the Volume 1 run
The Alpha Flight Special with "First Flight"
The second AF/X-Men two-issue mini-series, (although the first one, "The Gift" still rules!) :D
Rom #56 - 58, (and why wasn't Mantlo this good in the regular AF book?)
Wolverine #143 (with the return of Snowbird -- I was glad to see her back, in spite of the fact that it didn't make sense)
Wolverine #172 and 179
Black Panther #43 (with brief but good AF appearance)
and X-Men Unlimited #45, (with the birth of the Hudson baby -- and will someone PLEASE give her a name?).

Hopefully, someday, we'll get a Volume 4 that will be as good as these issues. Or even better! :lol:

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The Annuals never did it for me, The Gilded Lily one although reasonable, just had that depressing manlo'ish feel about it. The Savage Land story was pretty silly, although I would have liked to see Alpha Prime put in another appearence, espeacially Avian (or maybe she's Dina Saur in disguise).

First Flight was good and it would have been even better to see 'The Blooding' get an airing, more on Stitch and maybe the ramifications of the death of Elmo.

The other appearences in other books have been pretty good apart from The Generation X ones and 'kaff' 'kaff' 'X-Factor #116' (?) The ones that stand out are the later Wolivie ones, #170 ish and onwards.

There was lots post-Byrne I enjoyed. Mantlo played havoc with existing characters, messed up thier personalities and backgrounds, but he did creat some pretty great characters of his own IMO. He wrote decent stories, and created good characters, and some great villains. There was some decent to good art over his run too.

After him, Hudnall was pretty green at the time, I liked what he was doing with rebuilding the team, but the art was NOT on his side. Good are with his writing would have made it come across much better.

The Nicieza run was quite good character-wise, and finished what Hud had started with rebuilding the team. Bair's art was ok, though a little dark, and overly T&A, but told the story well enough.

I really enjoyed the lighter side Lobdell's mini-run brought, expecially the Diablo story that brought Weapon Omega into the loop.

I quite enjoyed what Furman did. He wrote some really great stories, and used both the mystical side and techno side of AF, though he missed the fine combination of the two that makes AF unique IMO. I also relly liked Broderick's art, though he did seem to inflate both women's and men's chests ;)

I really liked what Seagle did in Volume 2, and thing that no one gave that series the chance it deserved. The writing was great, some good, some not so good characters, but they all served their purpose with the whole legacy sub-plot. Seagle really had some great things planned, and I would have loved to see them make print. I think his strategic error was dragging the Deparment H. conspiracy out too long.

I really liked Volume 3. No, it really was not AF to me, but after the first issue is saw if more as an AF spin-off than as volume 3. As such I reallly liked it. So long as Lobdell didn't do anything really detrimental to the existing characters, I was more than willing to enjoy the series for what it was. unfortunatly Marvel would seem to have had no desire for this series to last, as they put nothing into it. Had it been marketed as an AF spin-off, I think it could have at lest lasted an other year. Instead it was just put on the shelves, no promotion made, and when old time fans picked it up expeting classic AF, they were dissapointed and pissed off. I didn't like how it ended, but the rest of the run I did enjoy.

There's my 2 bits, off to do more flooring.

Ben

Mantlo's run definitely had it's moments: Pestilence was a highlight, I loved Kara Killgrave's introductory arc, esp the first iss with Northstar (Dave Ross' art helped a lot). I loved Sasquatch's ressurection and the Wanda Langkowski character, esp the divorce court issue. Puck's return and the introduction of Jade Dragon and the Dreamqueen. I guess that's about it.

I've always loved Talisman so I was a fan of Hudnall's focus on the character and the return of Diamond Lil. His run was limited by Calimee's art (though I still remember the beautiful full page splash of tall Puck with angel wings, his best work just as he got canned).

Nicieza: Windshear's introduction. Lil's cancer issue. The alien invasion / Avengers cross-over (You'll notice Mac's resurrection is absent from this list), the FF crossover.

Lobdell: Loved all of his Vol 1 mini-run it except the infamous 106. It was hard to believe it was even written by the same person.

Furman: Sorry, can't think of any part I liked of Furman's run.

In terms of art, I liked Ross, Lee and Haney generally, and Bair had his moments.

Vol. 2 Mesmero's return, Radius's angry teen (though not sufficiently developed), loved Rouleau's dynamic cartoony art especially his take on Puck, the creepy issue 13.

Vol. 3 Sasquatch! The Plodex! Centennial! Clayton Henry!

Of course what I really want to do is b**ch about how much I hated the rest of it :) but this is the nicey-nice thread!

Madison

LOL, we have b***hy threads everywhere else. feel free to b***h freely there

What got me back into Alpha Flight was Hudnall and Calimee's run, every month I always got excited when it was AF's week to come out!

Ahh, the memories...

MM =P~

I very much enjoyed what Seagal was doing. I wanted more of the original team, but I felt like that was coming if only it had lasted. Done too soon. I liked a lot of what Furman did (except for the Infinity stuff, which wasn't his fault). Lobdell's first run was very cool.

Good stuff from the post Byrne Alpha includes:
Pestilence
Pursuasion
Dreamqueen
Lil's Breast Cancer
Walt as Wanda (tho it would have been better if it had been explored)
Heather in the suit
development of Aurora's light powers to somewhat differentiate her from Northstar

I loved Hudnall's writing. I really enjoyed #75, and read it several times, quickly.

I love the DreamQueen, Heather in the suit (original), the design of Madison's Box. New Alphans like Persuasion, Windshear, and even Mannikin (I thought he had a great concept).

I liked that Northstar came out of the closet. I loved Jim Lee's art.
Furman's and Lobdell's writing on v1 came as a relief at the time.

- Le Messor
"If you can't say anything nice, shoot them. They probably deserve it."
- me

i liked hudnall too. to bad that he had to be saddled with calimee. truly my least favourite AF artist. Who knows what sales could have ben with someone else.

fabian nutenda was my least favourite writer because i met him at a con and he was berating the book while he was still a writer on it. my opinion of him is very low still. i try to avoid anything with his name on it.

JC

I agree with you about Fabian, as I had the same experience myself.

I'm one of the few who -loved- Siegle's work on Vol.2. Sure the conspiracy was drawn out, but the writing was fresh, the stories were interesting, and I for one would have loved to see everything unfold as Siegle had planned.

As an AF fan, I have set in my mind that I will not pick up #11 & 12 of Vol.3...there were far too many lows for me, that I would rate that lower than what Mantlo had done. If Marvel ever decided to retcon anything, I would hope they would do it to Vol.3.

And as far as the rest of Vol.1...it's really been too long since I have read any of those (at least five years), I would be hard pressed to recall anything correctly.

Hmmmm....perhaps a re-reading of all of the issues is in order...

-Mystic

When I flipped through New Warriors #1, I didn't think much of the art (good, but not stand-out), but I still loved it. I've respected Nicieza as a writer ever since.

As for his run on Alpha... This is a thread about the -Good- stuff, post-Byrne.

- Le Messor
"If you can't say anything nice about somebody, kill them. They probably deserve it."

I haven't read enough old stuff yet to comment, only a few from vol 1, and some guest apps in other books. (boy, when I finally wrangle me a job I am buying the entire first volume!!!) Now i'm sad.

I actually liked and enjoyed what I read of volume 3. Of course I still havent picked up issues 11 or 12 which are apparently the main reasons that people hated this run. I liked the new characters, I loved the art, and I really didnt mind the tone either. I could have done with a better storyline but I still enjoyed this volume alot more than volume 2, which IMHO was a retread of old ideas from other places, was boring as heck and didnt have great artwork either.

Also not sure if it qualifies as "post-Byrne" or not, but the two issue Alpha/XMen Special "The Gift" (The one where they tangle with Loki) written by Claremont is excellent. One of my favorite all-time Alpha stories.

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Originally Posted by The Major

Also not sure if it qualifies as "post-Byrne" or not, but the two issue Alpha/XMen Special "The Gift" (The one where they tangle with Loki) written by Claremont is excellent. One of my favorite all-time Alpha stories.

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Out of the two AF/UXM limiteds I would have to go with the Loki story as well. The second one was out of continuity and IMHO was stymied by indiferent art. The only problem with the first was that it was diluted a little by Mantlo's AF #50 and his insistence that Sas was at Ungava bay during the Loki thing. Just a little research would hav made all the diference :-)

Oh and BTW, welcome to the forum "The Major', speak loud and speak often :lol:

I just remembered another post-Byrne AF story I liked: Marvel Fanfare #28. It had beautiful art and a surprisingly good Mantlo story, (about Northstar's past).

I agree with you, Major. Significant diff is, while I -enjoyed- vol3, it just didn't quite cut it for me.

The Gift is one of my fave AF stories, always has been. It includes, for me, the definitive pic of Heather.

The Marvel Fanfare was okay, but doesn't seem to be an in-continuity story; it's never been acknowledged by OHOTMU, for example.

- Le Messor
"This is exactly how I pictured married life - except we drove around in a van, solving mysteries."
- Homer

Incidentally, DelBubs, the artist on X-men/Alpha Flight Vol 2 was none other than John Cassaday of Astonishing X-men and Planetary fame! While he is one of my favorite artists based on those too series, I agree his work on XM/AF Vol 2 was not his best. Mainly he just didn't get either Puck or Sasquatch's proportions right, IMHO.

Maddy

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Originally Posted by The Major

I actually liked and enjoyed what I read of volume 3. ... I liked the new characters, I loved the art, and I really didn't mind the tone either. I could have done with a better storyline but I still enjoyed this volume alot more than volume 2, which IMHO was a retread of old ideas from other places, was boring as heck and didn't have great artwork either....

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I mostly agree. I like a comic book with a little fun mixed in. I liked reading vol. 3, whereas vol. 2 was a chore to read. Outside of THE ZODIAC stealing the Nth Projector for whatever reason and Mesmero having fun at AF expense, it's not easy remembering what went on in the rest of volume 2. AF went to the Microverse and did what? Department H erases AF's memories and what are the consequences? Both Macs are paramilitary flunkies? How consistent is that with the original James Hudson? Sometimes I think MARVEL writers are paid by the word. [Are they?]

As far as the artists on vol. 2, I wish there hadn't been such a merry-go-round between Scott Clark's run and Duncan's run, although there is one stand-out I really liked: Cruz.