Wolverine #28 - Logan never in Alpha Flight with JP?

This month's issue of Wolverine vol.3 #28 with JP brings up a HUGE problem I've had with Alpha Flight chronology since 1987:

When was the team formed - before or after the events of UXM#109? This is a big question because if AF was formed after UXM#109 it means that Wolverine was never a member.

There are now SIX key books involved in this chronology problem:

BOOK 1 - BEFORE - In the flashback portion of AF#17 that depicts the events leading up to the events of UXM#109, we learn that Alpha Flight existed BEFORE UXM#109. Mac says to Heather, "The rest of Alpha Flight will be more than ready before I go into any real action." That flashback is immediately prior to the events of UXM#109, which is then partially reprinted in that issue.

BOOK 2 - AFTER - A contradiction to this is what Gary Cody says in AF#52, "Turning his cybersuit into a battle-suit, he tried to get Wolverine back as Weapon Alpha.* Recognizing the folly of that, he began seeking new recruits-- --and soon, as Vindicator, he'd gathered to him the five core members of the original Alpha Flight!" The * is a note referring to UXM#109. And of course, JP is one of the five shown.

BOOK 3 - BEFORE - In Classic X-Men #16 which also reprints the events of UXM#109 with some additional material: we see Mac thinking, "That's why I wanted you [meaning Logan -rplass] as leader of Alpha Flight, old friend--" This takes place before Mac leaves for his trip to the States, which implies very strongly that Alpha Flight existed BEFORE the events of UXM#109. This desire for Logan to be the leader of Alpha Flight is consistent with what Mac said in AF#17, by the way.

BOOK 4 - AFTER - this is the most troubling book. Alpha Flight (Sasquatch, Northstar, Aurora, Snowbird, Shaman) appear as a training team in the flashback portion of AF#92. General Clarke fires Major Chasen on p23. It was Major Chasen's tie that Logan sliced when he quit, as depicted in Giant-Sized X-Men #1. Therefore, Wolverine must have quit before the events of the flashback portion of AF #92, which hints that the team was formed after he quit - but it's not clear. This supports AF#52 but does not definitely mean that the team was formed after UXM#109, since at least some time passed between Logan quitting and UXM#109. How much time is unknown, but it was at least as long as the period of time that passed between Giant Sized X-Men #1 which continues in UXM's #94-108. AF#17 makes it seem like about 1 day or less, but it's not exactly clear. It is possible that the flashback portion of AF#92 is sandwiched between the tie slicing and UXM#109, but it only really tells us that Logan was not around during that time.

I put this into the AFTER column because Major Chasen refers to Mac as "Vindicator," a name he took on after UXM#109. Mac must have already completed the events of UXM#109 by the time Chasen got fired. We are seeing raw recruits of the team, still wearing their training uniforms and Mac has already gotten back from the US. It strongly hints that the team was formed later rather than earlier.

In that same issue, Wolverine is not shown, presumably because he had already quit. Also, we learn that the team had taken on the name of "Alpha Flight" some time before the events depicted in the flashback portion of AF#92, as General Clarke indicates when he fires Major Chasen on p23. We don't know exactly when the team name was assigned.

This book actually causes a small loop of contradiction within itself because by a bizarre coincidence, it contradicts AF#17 with tie-slicing evidence, but AF#17 also happens to depict events in Major Chasen's office immediately after Chasen's tie gets sliced in Giant Sized X-Men #1.

BOOK 5 - BEFORE - In issue #28 of Wolverine vol. 3, Logan irks JP with this line, "You were always b-list at best, Jean-Paul. Even when we were back in Alpha Flight." So Alpha Flight must have been formed before UXM#109 and Logan must have been in it with Northstar.

BOOK 6 - AFTER The text portion of the Alpha Flight entry in the OHOTMU: TEAMS 2005 says, "Inspired by the Fantastic Four, James Hudson sought to create a Canadian superteam. He began to train metahumans for future combat situations, and assumed leadership of the team after Wolverine, who was the intended leader, defected."

This suggests that there was a team being formed before the defection and events of UXM#109, but it could be referring to the "First Flight" team shown in the Alpha Flight Special. I say this because in the flashback portion of AF#17, Mac says, "We've been putting together our little band of heroes more out of national pride than for any practical reason." National pride? That contradicts the notion that the purpose of the team was for combat situations. He later refers to his little band of heroes as Alpha Flight. The team that was being trained in the Alpha Flight Special was being trained for combat, so I'm thinking that the writers of the OHOTMU:T2K5 entry must have been referring to the metahumans as the "First Flight" team, of which Northstar was not a member. This supports the notion that Wolverine and Northstar were never in Alpha Flight at the same time.

Then, later in the entry, Wolverine is not listed as a former member of Alpha Flight.

By the way, The Alpha Flight Special with "First Flight" suggests that there was a team being formed before UXM#109, but does not show Aurora nor Northstar nor doesn't name the team as Alpha Flight, so it's not helpful.

Aurora Origin: The backstory of AF#9 implies that Logan is the one who introduces her to Dept. H. He says that his friend Jimmy Hudson would be interested in meeting her. Well, that must have occurred before UXM#109 because Logan wouldn't be calling Mac his "friend" between UXM#109 and UXM#139. But Aurora may have just taken a card, and called up Department H months or years later... it isn't shown so it's not helpful. We do know for sure that Aurora was recruited by Mac before Northstar, as revealed in AF#10.

Northstar Origin: Logan wasn't shown in AF#10 so it's not helpful. We don't know if the backstory of AF#10 occurred before or after UXM#109.
Well, now BEFORE has 3 books and AFTER has 3. After 18 years I am still not sure. So which is it?

Love,
rplass

Hmm... Maybe you're looking at it too black & white, and need more shades of grey. A lot of those books talk of a team being created and trained, but you seem to take them as something fully formed.

What if AF was being formed at the time, it wasn't yet a done deal, but it was getting there.
"The rest of Alpha Flight will be more than ready before I go into any real action." - they didn't exist yet, as such, but were getting there.
"Turning his cybersuit into a battle-suit, he tried to get Wolverine back as Weapon Alpha.* Recognizing the folly of that, he began seeking new recruits-- --and soon, as Vindicator, he'd gathered to him the five core members of the original Alpha Flight!" - Okay, this line -is- contradictory, since we know AF was being recruited before #109.
"That's why I wanted you [meaning Logan -rplass] as leader of Alpha Flight," - this doesn't actually mean AF existed at the time.
etc...

OTOH, in UXM #120-121, Wolverine didn't know AF.

- Le Messor
"Deprive a mirror of its silver and even the Czar won’t see his face."

only solid thing I have to add is that Wolvie drafted Aurora, and very shortly after, Mac drafted JP, there can't have been more than a month in between events.

Ben

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Originally Posted by rplass

This month's issue of Wolverine vol.3 #28 with JP brings up a HUGE problem I've had with Alpha Flight chronology since 1987:

When was the team formed - before or after the events of UXM#109? This is a big question because if AF was formed after UXM#109 it means that Wolverine was never a member.

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It appeaars that most of the contradictions and confusions about when the team was formed stem from interpretations after AFV1# 28, so I would go with what was presented in UXM# 109 when James decides to bring the rest of Alpha Flight with him to even up the odds as ALPHA FLIGHT being formed/forming before UXM # 109.

In my view Wolverine was in AF when the twins were but not when they were an active fighting force, he left before AF became operational. In a sense, all issues seem to make that a point, even if unaware.

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Originally Posted by Le Messor

Hmm... Maybe you're looking at it too black & white, and need more shades of grey. A lot of those books talk of a team being created and trained, but you seem to take them as something fully formed.

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Yes, I realize there are several ways to explain this with a gradual gravitation of superheroes to Dept H and team formation. Trust me, for 18 years I have been contemplating every possible scenario. But the way that Gary Cody describes the sequence of events in AF#52 seems very clear. He indicates that recruitment didn't start until AFTER UXM#109. Now if there were a team being trained, but not officially launched, with a few recruits sort of just starting out, nothing official... I believe it would have been more consistent for Logan to say, "Even when we were back in Department H", which would have made a lot more sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Ben

only solid thing I have to add is that Wolvie drafted Aurora, and very shortly after, Mac drafted JP, there can't have been more than a month in between events.

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I'm not sure there were 30-31 days or fewer between the meeting of Aurora and Wolverine in the alley and the recruitment of Northstar. I don't know how you can say that for sure. Please let me know what info from the comics that statement is based on. Mac indicates to Aurora that they contacted JP two months prior to the day that JP drove up to Dept H for the first time, but that doesn't help to place a time frame on the meeting between Logan and Jean-Marie.

I've always felt that Wolverine met Aurora in the alley and then there was some unknown time that elapsed between the meeting and her joining up with Dept H. I already mentioned this, but it is possible that Logan met Jean-Marie and that he passed on a phone number or an address and that several months or years could have passed before she acted on it and joined up. We know the twins are the same age. How old was Aurora when she met up with Wolverine the alley and how old was Northstar when he drove to Dept H for the first time, muttering veiled bomb threats? Well we are led to believe she is 18, (13 years old when she first flew + 5 years elapsed as referenced by the nun). Now, is it possible for Jean-Paul Martin to have become an internationally known successful long distance jump-skier at the age of 18? I doubt it. Even if he were exactly 18 at the 1976 Winter Olympics in Innsbruck, he'd be 21 in 1979 when UXM#120-121 were published and we first saw him.

In any case, I am convinced that the backstory origin issues of Aurora and Northstar cannot definitively contribute to the question of when the Alpha Flight team was formed, except to place Logan's meeting with JM in the alley as some time BEFORE UXM#109.

Love,
rplass


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The short period between events is just my personal impression. But yes, you could be an olypic star by 18, all it would take would be one year with a heap of medals, and everyone will know your name.

At any rate, I think it's quite possible for Wolvie and NS to have been a part of AF, or it's structure, but with differences in timing with a slew of writers over the years, we'll never match things up exactly.

Ben

And it's Jeanne-Marie, Jean-Marie is a man in french. I know I'm been... :evil:

Yes, I meant "Jeanne-Marie". I apologize to all of the Francophiles, no offense was intended. I'm just sort of French-stoopy. I do speak three languages, none of them French, obviously, and usually am known as someone who pays deep attention to details, so I'm quite surprised at myself and I feel terrible about it all. I hope you still love me.

In any case, please note that I live in NYC and I am continually barraged with a slew of culturally diverse names. I usually make a point, upon meeting the person, to ask the person to carefully spell their name and verify the pronunciation a few times until I get it perfect. I really do have respect for pronunciation and the subtle differences of language that you need to have to accurately show your interest in other people's cultures, so please do not think that I am insensitive. I simply made a small error in what otherwise was an extremely detailed and well-researched post.

Love,
rplass

Three languages? I can barely comprehend French some days, my wife is pretty good at Spanish. Being the daughter of a Mexican helps. :)

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Originally Posted by rplass

Yes, I meant "Jeanne-Marie". I apologize to all of the Francophiles, no offense was intended. I'm just sort of French-stoopy. I do speak three languages, none of them French, obviously, and usually am known as someone who pays deep attention to details, so I'm quite surprised at myself and I feel terrible about it all. I hope you still love me.

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HOw can I not love you with that reply? No offense taken, I was been a ***** but you know, it would make a good name for another personality a male one and we could mixed up people even more :twisted: I know, it's easy to make a mistake, mostly as the one you did and everyone do, it's just that I find it funny, that in french it comes up as a man's name, most annoying is not the spelling mistake for Jeanne-Marie, it's Raymonde Belmonde, because it's official and it's a women's name on a gay guy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rplass

...But the way that Gary Cody describes the sequence of events in AF#52 seems very clear. He indicates that recruitment didn't start until AFTER UXM#109.

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Why would anyone trust what Gary Cody said, especially during the period when Alpha Flight was the most sloppily written?

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Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan

Why would anyone trust what Gary Cody said, especially during the period when Alpha Flight was the most sloppily written?

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Yeah, I agree with this sentiment. I never thought I should give as much weight to the Gary Cody version of events as the version written by Byrne in AF#17. But it always nagged me.

Furthermore, the question seems to keep coming around. I suppose if we just decide that anything Byrne wrote is dogma and anything non-Byrne is "heretic", we can settle the question once and for all. It's a very good point you make. I think I'm reluctant because Byrne wrote a total of 34 issues out of over 400 Alpha Flight appearances, less than 10%.

(34=AF#1-28, UXM#109, FF#220, UXM#120-1, UXM#139-40)

Love,
rplass

Bill Mantlo wrote more issues of Alpha Flight than John Byrne did, and we can try to use the Mantlo era as dogma, but I don't think it will hold together very well.

I've got to keep mentioning Tom DeFalco, Roger Stern, and Louise Simonson because they all did an excellent job with Alpha Flight. The A.I.M. story (now that I have both parts, Wolverine#s 142 and 143) is better than I first gave it credit for, even though I still have a hard time believing the way 'Snowbird' is resurrected. Well-drawn, however.

First Flight shows an early incarnation of the team. St Elmo, Stich and Sean Benard (?) and Wolverine did not stay long with the team for reasons mostly explained in that issue. If I remember it right, the failure of that team influenced the tier system of recruitment that became Alpha Beta and Gamma Flights.
All flights, training or fighting, were divisions of Department H, which Wolverine also belonged to.
The backup features in the early AF issues often did not specify the times of when the characters were recruited in reference to each other but (again, IIRC) were ordered by recruitments. It was never clear if Wolverine was still with Department H when Northstar was recruited. Of the original Alphas introduced in UXM 120-121, in the time since then Wolverine's relationship with Northstar was the least explored.
We can assume because Northstar was always something of a self sufficient fighter, he rose through the training ranks rapidly. If he made himself a championship skier, we can assume he was adept and comfortable with his powers when he was recruited.
It should be safe assumption that the original Alphas were already being trained AS A TEAM as of UXM #109--the team was mentioned in Hudson's retreat, AND that some other members such as Puck, Marrina and Roger Boches were also already associated with Department H even if they had not yet been seen or mentioned.
Usually if something written such as the Cody bits in #52 contradicts specifics in earlier stories, I keep with the earlier story. Bill Mantlo made a mistake in forgetting the one poanel reference to Alpha in UXM #109. The larger history as put together best supports that Department H with its training tiers had been WELL underway for some time before Mac first appeared in UXM #109.

I wish I had the the rest of the middle part of the first series so I could try to put together a good referenced time line for Alpha Flight. THis would be interesting to document.