Printable View
There are a few scans of the issue here. All the spoilers you could ask for. Enter at your own risk:
http://www.newsarama.com/forums/show...threadid=59432
I was really trying to avoid looking at it but I couldn't. I won't say anything about it until we give everyone a chance to read the issue.
and the crowd goes apes***....
...
...I've got a plan. A theory of a plan at least. I'll reveal it later when I have time.
It starts by going "I'll give Marvel a chance here IF..." and is followed by a laundry list of stuff.
Seriously....
I can't wait to hear what everyone else thinks. I'm going to go jump in a river right now. Be right back.
Beat up or dead? Open to interpretation, as always.
Since Puck and Guardian show up in Civil War (or so we think), beat up is more likely.
I am sorry to start posting in this thread but I have just seen the preview and I couldn't stay without saying anything. I have no words at the moment but I hope Marvel gives an explanation to this soon. The only good thing (if there is any) I see in this is that my favourite Alphans (Northstar, Aurora and Snowbird) are safe but... what the hell? You can't do this to Alpha Flight Marvel!!!
I posted the spoilers on an LJ community. There's... an intresting mix of reactions.
http://community.livejournal.com/sca...y/1436677.html
so many 4 letter words.
so little time.
Right. So Bendis is going right up there with Mantlo, Austen, and Millar...
Suzene
At least were not the only ones pissed off.
1. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/s...0&pagenumber=1
2. http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...d.php?t=219295
HHmph!...Like I said...Hard and fast.
Dana :x
I am so angry, I'm shocked most members here arn't freaking out. I'm pissed off at the comments on newsarama.
I've got a healthy amount of distance, I think. Like I said over on s_d, I stopped giving a damn a while back and it's all been one big 'What-If' since. I can still get annoyed at lazy writing done just for shock value, or when Marvel continues their tradition of staffing 95% of editorial with homo-skittish fratboys, but I just can't work up the mad for deep, personal outrage over this anymore. I don't care enough to buy the books and I don't care enough to try and change them into anything I'd want to buy.Quote:
Originally Posted by King_Mungi
Suzene
I think we're all too angry/shocked/whatever to really say HOW angry/shocked/whatever we are... Mr. Bendis, if you read this, you'd be best to stay incommunicado for a PRETTY good long while...
I have a lot I want to say... but I didn't want to post any spoilers... and I want to read the whole book before I make any judgments.
But yeah, it looks bad.
OK! That was shocking and disturbing to read/view! But I'm over the initial shock and will try to take a calm stab at this. It may not be as bad as it looks (even though it probably is). Reasons:
1) We only really see Mac get kanked. He could've flown out ahead to meet his doom and the others remained unscathed. Plus many of us have already stated that he should've stayed dead in the first place. One could look at it as clearing up that continuity mess once and for all.
2) Of course, there are several versions of Mac roaming around anyway. He flew off into space, was teleported through time at the end of V3, and his clone was still alive at the end of V2. So the Civil war thing still has many Mac's to choose from.
3) Shaman may have worked some mojo to get them all out of the fire at the last moment.
4) The Collective may have just barreled through and not made sure the kills were complete. And then maybe Alpha Flight could still recover.
This a being said, I still think they probably bought it. Since Bendis wrote it, my guess would be that the dead Mac is the origianl and the Civil War one will be a clone, and Puck was saved by the Raazer demon inside him (arrgh!). Poor little Orpan Hudson! Maybe she'll get pissed and form her own Alpha Flight once she can walk!
****! ****! ****! ****! ****!
GOD BLAST IT! ****! I'm so ******* torn up right now! I'm SO pissed off! I can't believe this ****! If this is the real, true Alpha Flight, I am so incredibly angry. I can't believe they'd just take them out, especially like THAT... thats just horrible... I swear to God... I swear... I swear... God, I'm just trembling with rage. TREMBLING. I'll have to return at a time when I'm a little... I don't know... more coherent. And less outraged... AGHFGH! And if this IS without a doubt the true Alpha Flight and there is no coming back, I don't care what anyone else thinks about Wolverine, but that boy better get his ******* *** up and slaughter whoever did this! I want some ******* vengeance!
Ok I'm of two minds about this. I haven't read the whole issue, but from all reports the death of the Alphans is NOT shown. No battle, no nothing...just them lying on the ground bloodied up. If they ARE dead (which is possible going by the solicitation of the issue as Alpha Flight's final battle) it's a lame, Lame, LAME way to do things. You do NOT kill of heroes with 20+ years of history off-panel.
On the other hand, seeing as the deaths are not actually shown, I think it might be safe to say that they're not dead or that at least some of them have survived. No battle, no actual DEATH scene, possibly no dead Alphans. If that's the case we could end up with this opening doors to some of them joining the Avengers or some such.
I'm hoping for the second theory, because otherwise I'm gonna be really pissed off at the disrespect for those characters.
As was already mentioned, we don't yet know if it's dead or just beat up. Mac looks pretty messed though. Of course, he might just be dazed.
In any event, if they are dead objective honesty begs that I feel sorry for the rest of Marvel Earth. Afterall, Sasquatch alone can hold his own against Hercules or Hulk or Juggernaut, and the rest of AF aren't exactly wimps either.
Anything that can pound through the Flight that quick and easy, is gonna female-dog-slap the Hulk, tenderize his meat with Thor's hammer, serve Hulk-steaks up on Cap's shield and then pick his teeth with Wolverine's claws.
If the Marvel-God is a righteous and just God that is ... as opposed to some whacko on meth.
If they weren't dead I don't think it would be called their last battle.
Judging by what we’ve seen here and by Joe Q’s comments I don’t see Alpha Flight involved in any Marvel stories for a while.
There are a couple of them on the Civil War poster, but I suspect that was just a generic montage of Marvel heroes to signify the magnitude of the crossover. Also for all we know this is their contribution to the Civil War storyline.
I’m pretty upset at this. This isn’t why I started reading comics again… To see my favourite super-team like that.
I hate to say it, but the way they're drawn sure as heck makes them look dead. The eyes of Shaman and Mac look pretty lifeless... the way the bodies are positioned also looks like traditional images of dead people... Mapleleaf's arm lying back like that... and it doesn't look like any of them are even making an effort to get up, which may suggest that they've just been beaten into unconsciousness, but in my opinion that is even less likely... I mean all of them beaten only unconscious? At the very least, half of them are dead without a doubt. I'm just praying that certain ones make up that half...Quote:
As was already mentioned, we don't yet know if it's dead or just beat up. Mac looks pretty messed though. Of course, he might just be dazed.
Also, I agree with sentiments expressed either here or elsewhere saying that the rest of the Marvel Universe MUST have a difficult time with this threat if it can take out the Alphans like that, particularly Shaman and Sasquatch... even as "less important" characters in the eyes of the current Marvel Administration, anything that takes out those guys has to at the VERY least kill half of the New Avengers. Sure, Spider-Man, Luke Cage and Captain America might be cool on levels, but not a single one of them nears the power levels of some of the Alphans... I mean Spidey himself is pretty much equal to Puck on most levels, especially depending on the environment... anyways, if this is the death of Alpha Flight, it sure as hell better be the death of some other people too.
Also, if they're dead, the biggest problem for me is wanting them back... and if I were a Marvel writer attempting that, I'd hate to go the way of resurrection... so as soon as we learn if this was a true demise or not, I'm starting a little brain trust in my basement whose sole duty for the next 5 years will be to come up with a plausible, interesting and enjoyable means of resurrecting the team... Alphans in Hell maybe? Who knows... :cry:
And if I were Wolverine right now, I'd fine whoever did this, pin them down and then slice them to pieces... pop one claw... this is for Sasquatch... pop another, this is for Puck... pop another, this is for Shaman... you get the idea. Sure he's only got six claws, but meh, he probably didn't know all the new members, at least not too well.
This is Alpha Flight's last battle remember? so yeah looks like they are dead
Shaman alone could have beaten them:
[He held the rift for over 2 hours]
1. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...01_rougher.jpg
2. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...02_rougher.jpg
3. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...03_rougher.jpg
4. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...04_rougher.jpg
5. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...05_rougher.jpg
6. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...06_rougher.jpg
7. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...07_rougher.jpg
8. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...13_rougher.jpg
9. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...17_rougher.jpg
and yes....that's an atomic bomb
So here's my thoughts, still having not read the issue yet…
Joe said this a few weeks ago:
Now we could argue if Alpha is "significant" or not, but aside from that I'm pointing out number 3. What is Bendis going to create in their place? If there's some grand plan I can't see, fine. I'll stick around for the rest of the arc and see how things play out (like how Wolverine reacts). However… if this is just a "clichéd death" then I really can't see myself sticking around Marvel for very much longer. There are very few books I'm reading these days from them, New Avengers being one of them, and I was willing to give Civil War a shot, but if it turns out my favorite characters are just cannon fodder now I really won't hesitate to save a few dollars per month or re-invest that into DC or creator owned books. This "death," if it is a death, better have some sort of payoff or follow up, or I'm out.Quote:
So, let's review... When I said, ''dead is dead," the Internet community took that (as it so often does) into a million different directions and had a trillion different interpretations of what I said even though I explained it clearly. "Dead is dead" above all else was meant as something for our writers to be very aware of, that I wasn't going to allow a significant character death or resurrection to happen if not for the following things.
1.) No clichéd comic deaths. If a major character is to die, it must be in a significant way because there will be no resurrections (unless *)
2.) If a character dies a clichéd death, like he jumps off a bridge never to be found, sorry, that's just open for interpretation and clichéd writing. All bets are off, resurrect at will.
3.) If you're going to kill a significant character in a significant way, then you must either create something in their place or we're not doing it.
4.) * If, and this is very important, you're killing of a character and plan on resurrecting him or her, then I want to hear the plan in advance and it better not suck. This is exactly what had happened with Hawkeye.
5.) And this is the most important one out of all of these. If you plan to bring a significant character back from the dead then it better be the best resurrection story ever.
The clone died in an issue of Wolverine, the same issue where Snowbird came back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnacle13
I think what he is creating in their place is this new “collective” villainQuote:
Originally Posted by Adam
I always saw it as creating something to fill the void. I can see how the New Avengers and Young Avengers could be argued as the result of the deaths in Disassembled.
The Collective, if I understand it right, is just a new villain. That doesn't quite measure up what we're losing.
Personally I think how the whole thing went down is bull****. Here's a team built from scratch to go toe to toe with the X-Men and they get steamrolled by some glowing c-sucker, straight bull****.
I only come back to comics when there's a new AF book or appearance. This event pretty much assures I won't be coming back. F the higher ups at Marvel for giving the green light on this piece of **** story.
Now that I sorta vented allow me to provide a glimmer of hope. Dead bodies don't hold their hand up like the way that Mac is there. A lifeless bodie falls completely limp meaning that hand should be laying on or against something. It's my guess that at least Mac just got the caca knocked out of him and he's dazed. Take it from someone who's been knocked out before and had it caught on tape, that's what you look like.
I know folks I'm reaching here but what else can I do?
Especially considering the context of this new villain... at least from what I've seen and read (which is limited at best), the collective while a "major" threat, does not seem like a continual threat, as in one that will last for a significant amount of time (examples of 'real' villains being Doctor Doom, Magneto and the like)... the way I viewed what was said is that when characters are taken out of the world permanently, they must be replaced by something of equal value, as in something that will effectively fill their level of power/influence and such... so yes, I agree with the idea that the Young/New Avengers would be the justification for the Avengers... essentially its applying conservation to comic books... hopefully balanced and such... I just don't see the Collective as lasting that long, especially on a 10 year plus scale.Quote:
The Collective, if I understand it right, is just a new villain. That doesn't quite measure up what we're losing.
ABSOLUTELY pathetic.
It's pretty clear here, Bendis wanted his new villain to look a threat so he has it kill a B-list superhero team OFF PANEL. What, he couldn't devote a few pages of jis precious book to at least show them putting up a little bit of a fight?! It's nothing more or less than lazy writing.
The reading public is more than capable of seeing through this bull, but sadly that won't bring our team back. Pathetic.
Funeral for Guardian
Alpha Flight #101-This seems appropriate after the events of New Avengers #16. Alpha Flight believed when Mac sacrificed his life to save billions, they thought he was gone forever. Heather gives some sad parting ways and those same comments can be applied to each and every member of Alpha Flight. Just to note Mac isn't really dead, he eventually comes back at the end of the series. Still we should pay our respects to Alpha Flight
1. http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...htv1101-07.jpg
2. http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...htv1101-08.jpg
3. http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...htv1101-19.jpg
4. http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...htv1101-21.jpg
As far as Marvel continuity goes, Alpha Flight is in space, and these characters (Shaman, The Hudsons, and Puck I) are all alternate versions taken from the past. The only character that might be "dead" that would have any real impact is Sasquatch, but he's tough enough that he may have survived.
Ben
You mean Marvel has continuity? Hurrah, we are saved :-)
I picked up the book today and as soon as I finished it I went to marvel.com and wrote an e-mail to them. I said I was never buying another Marvel comic again, then told Joe Q to screw himself but in four-letter words and let Bendis know his writing is crap and he cost the company a loyal reader. What I really wanted to say to him was I hope he got cancer, but that's not appropriate even for this piece of $&!#. The worst part however is the last four pages of the book are taken up with a lame-@$$ story about some lame-@$$ super group from the New Universe! I swear we should all stop buying Marvel books and see if they respect AF and their fans then.
Ben brings up a good point, AF is actually in space right now. Maybe Lobdell actually did some good in that final issue of vol. 3.
But there is one problem, Sasquatch. He wasn't on that ship. But I'm not too worried as I guarantee he ain't dead. {sas} [-X
Yes I remember current Alpha FLight is in space, but killing your past self can't be good for the present Alpha Flight. Wait....wouldn't the Earth be destroyed, since this was the AF team when Guardian went to New York, so if they died now they couldn't prevent the Great Beasts from causing more damage, or Llan or even Dreamqueen from taking control of the world.
Yes but what your forgetting is that because different members of Alpha went to different time periods to try and help Flashback, lots of divergent realities were created. We all know that the real Alpha were never stolen from time, so it must have been one of these divergent Alpha Flights that came to this time. Sas had a team after AF vol 3 #12, the pseudo Alphans joined, they fought the 'Collective' and got battered. The real Alphans are in space on a space ship that got blown up in vol 1 so the Master of the World would be free of Plodex technology.Quote:
Originally Posted by King_Mungi
Or
"Meanwhile in a continuity free universe far away..."
You might be right this Alpha Flight might be from a divergent timeline
A valid point for the distant future, but I think that under the current administration, this should probably even stay a hidden fact, as they might try to explain that away, retconning it to make things even more confusing, just to make sure that Alpha Flight is dead. I for one shall take a bit of solace in the thought and let myself hold on to the possibility, despite the fact that it means we may not see the true Alphans for some time. As for Sasquatch... if he is indeed dead (which admittedly in the pictures he appears to be the only one in my mind who actually has a chance of still being alive, also a point to argue is that being in Sasquatch form is a result of Langowski's willpower, and as he has not reverted to human form, this must mean he is still alive)... well actually after that, screw my sentimental words honoring him, the big furball has got to still be alive!Quote:
Ben brings up a good point, AF is actually in space right now. Maybe Lobdell actually did some good in that final issue of vol. 3.
God guys I'm dying over here! After work I'm running to my local shop and picking up this book. I know I'll be disappointed, but I just have to see for myself.
And thanks for everyone on this thread who didn't give away TOO much stuff, for a guy who hasn't read it yet it's appreciated.
It's such a shame at Marvel that if your not Spiderman, The X-Men or Wolverine you're completely expendable, it makes me sick.