Is that Diamond Lil on one of the first pages of X-Men 183? The outfit looks right...see First Looks and judge for yourself...
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Is that Diamond Lil on one of the first pages of X-Men 183? The outfit looks right...see First Looks and judge for yourself...
Certainly looks like her.
I can't think of anyone who it could be but Diamond Lil. So she's part of the 198 with Aurora. Wonder if anyone else of AF note is.Quote:
Originally Posted by DelBubs
You have been warned....
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SPOILERS AHEAD...
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Diamond Lil is among the refugees at the X-mansion(she is no longer a prisoner of Weapon X...YAY!!!!
Link to her upcoming cameo appearance in X-Men#183
http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stori...6/xmen1834.htm
Dana
Posted already, but you guys have hawkeyes
1. http://forum.alphaflight.net/viewtopic.php?t=1192
Oops! I didn't see that...Sorry.
Dana :oops:
So....what happened to Neverland, then?
I guess if Leech was one of the mutants that lost his powers, there wouldn't have been anything holding back those those who kept their powers after D-day, and Lil is more than capable of taking apart a few 'bots just by her lonesome.
Suzene
I see Erg :D =D> He's alive!!! [-o< \:D/
But, dear God is that guy in silver with the arrows and weapons actually Scalphunter! The most ruthless of the Maruders, the one who killed all seven (?) of Annalee's children, then killed her! And hundreds of other Morlocks! :twisted: :twisted: Why would they save his sorry can?...Let the humans have him I says...
Leech still has his powers and is living in the refugee camp outside of the X-Mansion(he appeared in issue #2 of X-Men: The 198). It seems all(?) the mutants from Neverland somehow ended up free and staying at Xaviers.
Dana
As for the depowered ones, Mesmero has been seen out and about, living his own life again as well.
I don't have a problem with Scalphunter being there, it's a refuge for ALL mutants. What I DO have a problem with however, is ERG having a drink with ARCLIGHT. WHAT THE HELL, PEOPLE.
Ranks up there with Marrow trying to hook up with Gambit a few years ago. Maybe, like them, Erg and Arclight came to a reconsilation - tho I doubt it.
Oh well, I'm just glad Erg is still alive. of the 'classic' Morlocks, he's still my favourite.
Hasn't Mesmero been killed, like, 8 times already?? Geez, he's getting to be as bad as Mac...
He hasn't been killed since his resurrection in AF vol.2.
Are he and Callisto the only ones left, or am I forgetting someone?
Erg, Callisto, Caliban and Leech are the only ones that come to mind who have survived the two Morlock Massacres.
He as in Mac or he as in Mesmero?Quote:
Originally Posted by MistressMerr
I remember reading somewhere that Mesmero died at least once in WX (I don't have the series, so I can't corroborate - as I said, it's what I heard)
Mesmero. All that happened in Weapon X was that he lost his powers due to this confidence thing and they sent him to Neverland.
Arclight too!? :twisted: The only Marauder I can even vaguely stand is Scrambler, mainly because he looks like a goofy kid (you should see his pic in the Official Handbook Update '89 #6... :lol: ) He's also the youngest of the group, but he sure ain't innocent...but he's nothin' compared to the others, especially Scalphunter and Sabretooth...
Tar Baby and Ape were shown for one issue of Weapon X, then killed off...Why would you bring back characters after 20 + years just to kill them off in one issue? :twisted:
Several other Morlocks also survive, Caliban, Thornn, Feral and Skids (Yes, Skids was once a Morlock)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Realm/5113/mmembers.htm
That site needs major updating, it still lists Erg, Tar Baby and Ape as dying in the flood or on the Hill, and lists Masque as dead. I read a theory that the Masque Shatterstar killed was just a look-a-like, not the real Masque, which would explain his/her survival.
There may be others who got out in time, I'd like to see Bliss again, though I sincerely doubt it :cry:
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/blissmorlock.htm
And Masque may still be alive, I'm not exactly sure what Callisto did to him/her? in X-Treme X-Men...
I posted pics of Erg and Scrambler, and a sketch I did of Bliss (As Jean Grey...Masque, need I say more...) under "Everything Else".
If they have to save Scalphunter and Arclight, they could at least keep them locked up, Scalphunter roaming the X-Mansion is just too dangerous. And to top it off, not only is he carrying weapons, he can form weapons out of his own body...don't they have containment cells in the mansion?
I thought--and could be wrong--that Mesmero had died in Alan David' run on Uncanny a year or so prior to Weapon X, and his resuurection from that death was never revealed.
Corroboration, anyone?
Aren't most of the Mauraders clones?
Should a clone Scalphunter be penalized for what another clone Scalphunter (or the prime being) did?
You know what I've thought was funny?...Sunder was also a long-time survivor, but fell into limbo and ended up on the dead list. He was shown to be a part of the Muir Island X-Men and was shot(to death?) by the Reavers, but he showed up(alive and well) a short time later as one of the mutants watching the Muir Island Gladiator games...he then vanished from any book and was presumed dead....maybe he was just a continuity glitch, since he has been listed as a casualty of the Reavers attack on Muir Island?Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyCanuck
Dana
He(Mesmero...LOL) was supposedly killed by the Dark Riders in Uncanny X-Men, but it was revealed in Alpha Flight Vol. 2...that he hypnotized them(and apparently us, the readers) to belive he had been killed.
Dana
Wasn't there another Alan Davis run AFTER Vol 2? They fought the skrulls in Davis' second run.
If they have to save Scalphunter and Arclight, they could at least keep them locked up, Scalphunter roaming the X-Mansion is just too dangerous. And to top it off, not only is he carrying weapons, he can form weapons out of his own body...don't they have containment cells in the mansion?
Gathering them at the mansion was allegedly a voluntary thing. They chose to go there, and therefore it must be treated as a haven. They knew the risks when they said that it would be a safe place for all mutants. To imprison people who voluntarily came to you would only undermine intermutant relationships, not to mention cause many additional problems that they can hardly handle right now. Imagine if those mutants then got freed and specifically as a result of that were upset and decided to take it out on all the rest of them. Additionally, I offer these quotes from the 198 to further cement this:
Valerie Cooper: This is NOT internment. This project is intended for the protection of mutants and operates on a strictly voluntary basis.
Kitty: So everyone's free to come and go?
Valerie Cooper: Not exactly, Kitty. We have some control.
Kitty: Concentration camp.
In a sense they are already imprisoned and being constantly guarded by giant sentinels provided by ONE. Members of the 198 who might attempt to cause problems have already been dealt with by use of force, even further damaging the trust of their shaky alliance. Another quote, just to further counter why it would be inappropriate to imprison specific mutants for past wrongs:
Valerie Cooper: Are you aware how many of the mutants in this camp have, at some time, been suspected of homicide?
Beast: All of them?
Its this kind of thinking of "lock up the dangerous mutant" that has lead to the rise of the Brotherhood, Magneto's war and even the House of M event and fallout. Several members of the X-Men have even been party to murder on several levels. Should they as well be locked up? To do any of this would be a clear violation of basic human rights, and while speaking in the context of the American based Xavier institute would be a deprivation of the due process rights provided by the constitution. And as for the carrying of weapons and the necessary restriction of those weapons, most of those mutants are living weapons, and to suggest that mutants should be locked up as a result of their weapon based powers reminds me of a scene from the first X-Men movie, the exchange between Jean Grey and Senator Kelly, as she reminded the Senator that the wrong driver behind the wheel of a car can be dangerous, and that while we liscence people to drive we can hardly liscence them to live. If scalphunter's ability to carry weapons (a right provided by the constitution as well, as might be noted) or produce weapons makes him a candidate for isolation and special monitoring, should not also Cyclops, head of this little operation, be set aside? After all, we saw what he could do to a sentinel in Astonishing X-Men 8. Wolverine and Beast also are natural weapons, and psylocke is without a doubt a very powerful weapon, not to mention the rest of the psychics. My point in all of this is that once you begin limitations of people based on their differences or due to a history of discrimination, things can get very iffy.
Very well thought out and defended post! =D>Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman Of The Whills
Beast is a weapon? Anyway, I agree with you on the trust thing, if they start locking up mutants who come to them, they'll stop coming.
The few of the 198 I know of are dangerous, and some are wanted by the authorities
Litterbug, one of the 198, a former Chicago Morlock, killed a few police officers (In self-defense), and aided in the destruction of the Chicago Sentinal plant and who knows how many of it's employees, so he has to be wanted by the govt.
Peepers is or has been a professional criminal.
Erg can fire very destructive blasts from eye, the one with the patch, but I doubt he has a criminal record, though he did help kidnap Power Pack for Annalee after her children were murdered, [i]by Scalphunter[/i].
The problems I see with Scalphunter are 1. He's a mass-murderer, he's been doing this since WWI, when he killed three of his own officers. Scalphunter hasn't killed to protect himself or others like the X-Men, he killed for pleasure (Wolverine probably has too, I'll give you that) and money, and he enjoyed it all (So did Arclight, but I'm focusing on Scalphunter right now). Were talking cold-blooded, intentional murder of innocent people, running in the hundreds.
2. I've been told, (whether or not it's true I can't say), that the Marauder's clones are inhabited by the spirits (or whatever you want to call them) of the originals...Transmigration of the soul? I can't remember the term...If it is the original, they have every right to hand him over to authorities. If he's not, you're absolutely right, they have no right to punish him for someone else's crimes, a clone of Scalphunter, who has a different essence, a different mind, would not be responsible, even if he thinks he is, and "remembers" what the real Scalphunter did. The Weapon X People "remember" a lot of things that never happened. If Scalphunter had been insane, he's simply needs mental help, like at Ravencroft. Kyle and Wyre both needed major mental help and never got it, and look at Kyle now...
3. He can't part with his natural weapons any more than a master of Karate can hand over his skill,so that can't be helped. The Right to Bear Arms also carries a responsibility. [i]But even with The Right to Bear Arms there are limitations, dangerous criminals and convicted felons are stripped of that right. Just as you can't yell fire in a crowded theater you can't knowingly allow weapons in irresponsible or dangerous hands. If I give a man I know is a criminal a gun, and he goes out and shoots someone, I'm an accomplice. If I know that someone has commited a crime, I witnessed it, and I don't inform or otherwise help the authorities, I'm an accomplice.
Killing Scalphunter would be wrong, it's murder to just execute a man without a fair trial (and many would argue any execution is morally wrong, but I won't get into that), especially when he comes to you for help.
The authorities could have him put in the Cage with other Super-Villains.
You can't just let a murderer go, especially a serial killer, just because he's a Mutant, that's reverse discrimination.
I just remembered, it's not real... Scalphunter doesn't exist. I have to learn not to get all hyped up over fantasy. :oops: #-o
"Oh my goodness! It's that diminutive renegade mutant...Weapon X-Tra Short! Come to savage my kneecaps, have you?" Donald Pierce to Logan in Weapon X I#2 (AOA)
Beast is a weapon?
Most certainly so. He has claws and fangs, and has recently become more and more aggressive in fighting in the field, perhaps even losing some measure of control (for one incredibly clear example of the new 'savage' beast, Astonishing X-Men 10 in which he tries to shred the danger room persona. Admittedly this may be because he felt that it was a non-human enemy and could therefore be more violent towards it, but given what Frost had already said at that point, it was quite clear that the danger room had become sentient and that he and the rest of the team regarded it as such.
The few of the 198 I know of are dangerous, and some are wanted by the authorities
Exactly. Alot of them are considered dangerous, some of them are considered vigilantes, and some of them actually are dangerous. However, they are being monitored by the government as they are, so being wanted by the authorities is really of little value, considering the fact that they are kind of in possession by the authorities at this point. Also, pointing out criminal records of such doesn't really provide much in the way of proving danger... after all, nearly all of the heroes have at some point broken major laws. Even Mac himself is a thief, Gambit is a thief, Wolverine is a murderer, Emma Frost was, well, Emma Frost... I mean, they're all guilty of something on some level. The fact is that the government was well aware of this when they allowed the Xavier mansion to become a refuge camp for the remaining mutants, although their agenda isn't exactly clear at this point.
The problems I see with Scalphunter are 1. He's a mass-murderer, he's been doing this since WWI, when he killed three of his own officers. Scalphunter hasn't killed to protect himself or others like the X-Men, he killed for pleasure (Wolverine probably has too, I'll give you that) and money, and he enjoyed it all (So did Arclight, but I'm focusing on Scalphunter right now). Were talking cold-blooded, intentional murder of innocent people, running in the hundreds.
I'm not arguing for absolution of Scalphunter's past crimes and misgivings, like I said I'm arguing for a rule of due process. However, given the current circumstances, that hardly seems a reasonable thing to attempt nor does it appear to be on the government's agenda. Perhaps in time they might be able to take care of situations like that, but for the meantime there is no reason to simply lock him up given the fact that he has fled to the mansion for safety. Quite frankly I find the action wholly irrational given your argument that he would even bother to turn to the mansion if he is such a capable fighter, so perhaps the error is the coordinators choice to even put him in such a circumstance. As such, he should be treated the same as the rest of the mutants within the internment camp. But then again I think this whole camp situation is silly on everyone's parts, in and out of the universe.
The Right to Bear Arms also carries a responsibility. But even with The Right to Bear Arms there are limitations, dangerous criminals and convicted felons are stripped of that right.
In mentioning the right to bear arms I merely meant to allow it as a passing argument that one might argue, although I never intended to pursue such a course. I also doubt that the thought would even pass through Scalphunter's mind, as he would much more pleasantly disregard the law entirely. I'm only playing devil's, no not even devil's more like little imp's, advocate.
The authorities could have him put in the Cage with other Super-Villains.
Although this would be expressly against their offer to shelter any mutant who so desired it. I understand the argument that doing so would be for the greater protection of both the world and of those in the camps, but their offer stands as it is, and to submit one individual to such imprisonment would naturally submit them all to it. As to the cause of this, I think that its actually become quite evident in the issue of 198 that mutants are beginning to stand up for each other, even in doing the wrong things. If they had even dared to imprison him, there might have been riots on the mutant scale which could have devestated their attempt to work with the mutants. With just a simple little thing a group of mutants were suddenly blasting away at sentinels once more, just for wanting to leave the compound. Imagine if they started locking people up, even for valid reasons. The Sentinels had valid reasons to attempt to restrain those who tried to escape and suddenly even the innocents were flocking to their defense.
You can't just let a murderer go, especially a serial killer, just because he's a Mutant, that's reverse discrimination.
Yes, but he is (and I hate to use this as it makes me feel somewhat lame) innocent until proven guilty, despite whatever images might be attached to his character. Once again, I never said let him go (especially under the argument that he is just a mutant), I said put him through due process of the law. And as is evident, none of them are going anywhere at this point.
Emma Frost, how quickly I forgot Mrs. Frost, yes, she's killed too, for money, power, or just whim..., she changed, who knows, maybe Arclight or Scalphunter could change, but it wouldn't mean they would/should be free of consequences for what they did.
The state of the U.S. govt towards mutants has little to do with justice, nor does the typical citizen have much sympathy for mutant life. Kitty Pryde remarked that most people thought the Genoshan Mutants "Got what they deserved"( X-Men Unlimited #36/1), and the "Muties" title is full of people killing mutants with no consequence (From America to Africa to Ireland to Japan, so it's not just the U.S.), it's open season on mutants.
When I get hyped-up I don't think, I run purely on emotion, if they turned over Arclight and Scalphunter to the police, they'd be dead before reaching jail, or the police would...Also, as I said, I need to be more aware of the line between fantasy and reality, and not to stress over the bad things that happen in fiction, when I have enough stress from real life... :oops:
Banshee said, regarding Donald Pierce: "He's a cyborg with a madman's hatred for mutants. To him, the only good mutant is a dead mutant." to which the Cheyenne Forge replied. "My ancestors knew the type..." Uncanny X-Men #262.
When that "Type" gain power, whatever idea they represent, the results are very, very ugly...
Emma Frost, how quickly I forgot Mrs. Frost, yes, she's killed too, for money, power, or just whim..., she changed, who knows, maybe Arclight or Scalphunter could change, but it wouldn't mean they would/should be free of consequences for what they did.
Well I'd be hesitant to go just on that basis... seeing as she hasn't actually changed... but nevertheless, the acceptance of her new image within the world (with the excpetion of Nick Fury at the very least) seems persuasive of the possible image of redemption for some of these criminals...
However, that brings up an interesting question... how much of the changes in the characters we've known for some time is actual development and alteration and how much is simply external from the actual world (wanting to capitalize on a villain's character thus mutating (no pun intended, really) into a hero, although I don't expressly intend to point the Juggernaut as one of these individuals)? Alot of the times its just due to poor research on the characters, and then after the longtime fans have pointed out the error of ways they have to make up for it with ridiculous retcons... so also to slide this back a little more towards the topic at hand... if Lil or any other former members should step forward into more of a speaking role, what changes will they undergo and will they be based on poor research or actual experiences? Obviously there still has to be a little dealing with the whole Neverland, and speaking of which (I don't remember this being mentioned) what is up with Madison Jeffries lately? We haven't heard from him since the Neverland incident... also, does anyone think that they're actually going to explain what happened between Neverland and this or will they just forget to give an explanation?
(Also, minor question, since I don't want to be repetitive saying things that are being said elsewhere, we have two threads on pretty much the exact same subject... should we move the discussion to X-Men 183? Just thinking...)
I can merge the threads if that's what you guys want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman Of The Whills
Ben
Might be an idea Ben, merge threads and lock the dead un.
He's just had about a years' worth with Claremont. I don't remember any skrulls there.Quote:
Originally Posted by kozzi24
Or was that his third?
(Alan Davis? Now there's I guy I'd love to see on a new AF series. Does that sound sarcastic? It isn't.)
- Le Messor
"Duck who fly upside down have quack up."
Threads merged. Carry on Canada!
Ben
I'm speaking from a position of ignorance here, since I haven't been keeping track of Neverland or Weapon X for a while (Other than checking to see if Kyle's still alive), but I remember that when Cable? and some others attacked Neverland and overthrew the Director, Agent Jackson then double-crossed them, had them captured and their memories wiped of any knowledge of the Weapon X project or Neverland.
So, is it possible that Diamond Lil' and the others were "released", and their memories were wiped so that they couldn't tell what had happened?
I don't know why they'd be released, but I've only seen how Weapon X was run under the Director, maybe Brent decided to be a bit kinder, but I sincerely doubt it...
Who else from Neverland was there?
Maybe they're not really who they appear to be... 8-[
"All that is not Brood is chaos! It is the void! How can you desire that?" The Brood Empress to Hannah Conover.
Prior to Claremont's return, Davis had a stint as writer., and IIRC, Mesmero died in that run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
Maybe all the former Neverland prisoners are now brain-washed sleeper agents, that can be activated when ever Jackson wants?....or maybe(hopefully) not.
Dana
That would make sense, didn't The Director have ideas about "utilizing" mutants "for mankind's benefit?" ..."tools for today" he said. Maybe Brent is keeping with the schedule and today is now. 8-[
Weapon X: The Draft-Wild Child
"I've never encountered structures... of such sophistication and complexity. Where did they come from? Who made you?" Pierce to Deathstrike
"Would you believe...I made a deal with the Devil?" Lady Deathstrike
"There can be but one Devil in your life, Milady...ME." Pierce