Yep, he is powerless but he took a Plodex Vindicator's II punch without even moving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
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Yep, he is powerless but he took a Plodex Vindicator's II punch without even moving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Emphasis on Plodex.
The Plodex clones had all the power and memories of the original hosts :?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Well considering even a punch from my 9 year old would move me a little bit, this is still fairly impressive! Put any kind of mass behind that punch (say a full grown Plodex Vindicator) and it should still hurt a normal man. So, obviously he's super-human.
That's the only super-human display of power yet, but the handbooks say he is peak human in every area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnacle13
Power and memories yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
Skills, experiences and techniques I doubt.
In the MU the original always has an edge over a clone.
And taking a punch doesn't mean he had a power, or that he didn't feel pain.
I could take several rounds of punches from a mugger before passing out or whatever, it doesn't give me super powers.
Memories goes hand in hand with experience, technique and skills. You wouldn't have any of that without memories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
He didn't feel pain, he was smiling.
Without even budging? especially from a character that can lift multiple tons (25-75 ton range)? doubtful.
Not true, possessing memories and knowing how to utilise them are two entirely different scientific things.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
Again, not true. You just need to look at amnesiacs to see that some things are almost programmed, even without memory.Quote:
You wouldn't have any of that without memories.
And even if it were true, having memories doesn't automatically equate having the physical skills. Hence my first point.
People deal with pain in different ways.Quote:
He didn't feel pain, he was smiling.
He was trying to fit in to a new group of people, to show off to Zusha, to be like his father, to prove his worth etc.. He could quite easily be masking his pain.
Or his pain receptors/nerves could be disfunctional or miswired.
Or he could simply 'get off' on pain.
Have we ever seen Plodex Vindicator II lift that much?Quote:
Without even budging? especially from a character that can lift multiple tons (25-75 ton range)? doubtful.
What if the clone wasn't actually as powerful as the original?
And lifting doesn't equate to the power of punching at all.
I'm positive there are champion weight lifters who couldn't throw a punch to save their lives.
It may seem like I'm over analysing this, but you really do seem to be grasping at straws to try and find MMLJ a power, even though it's been clearly communicated, and now stated on paper, in print, as canon, that he has none.
You do realize your talking about the Plodex, who's entrie purpse is to stay alive and absorb entire civilizations and take on their characteristics. I highly doubt Plodex wouldn;t know how to use it's memories. It was also said they copied their abilities not just power and memoriesQuote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Like what? normal human beings without even guidance have certain aspects programmed into their brain their suppose to do. Show me an amnesiac person fighting with skill without his memories. He would have no idea what a judo toss is even if he knew it before hand,Quote:
You wouldn't have any of that without memories.
Again, not true. You just need to look at amnesiacs to see that some things are almost programmed, even without memory.
And even if it were true, having memories doesn't automatically equate having the physical skills. Hence my first point.
Wow, come on dude. You also have to take into account even force. A full punch from Plodex Vindicator didn't even BUDGE HIM. Masking pain, which I doubt even was the case was one thing, but not moving at all...impressive feat.Quote:
People deal with pain in different ways.
He was trying to fit in to a new group of people, to show off to Zusha, to be like his father, to prove his worth etc.. He could quite easily be masking his pain.
Or his pain receptors/nerves could be disfunctional or miswired.
Or he could simply 'get off' on pain.
They did, "ALL your powers, your abilities, your memories".Quote:
Have we ever seen Plodex Vindicator II lift that much?
What if the clone wasn't actually as powerful as the original?
And lifting doesn't equate to the power of punching at all.
I'm positive there are champion weight lifters who couldn't throw a punch to save their lives.
It may seem like I'm over analysing this, but you really do seem to be grasping at straws to try and find MMLJ a power, even though it's been clearly communicated, and now stated on paper, in print, as canon, that he has none.
So that's like an average joe taking a punch from Sasquatch and not budging. Come on man, I'm all for MMJr. just being peak human, but honestly if a multiple ton character punched you, you actual believe you wouldn't even move? Spider-Man even holding back has sent "normal" people flying with a mere flick of his finger.
What? No I said he was powerless, why do I care if he has powers? I even stated that several times. Even on paper they state Sasquatch is class 70 and look at this feats, even look at Guardian;s entry it doesn't describe his power accuratetly. Do I think MM jr. has powers? no.
Ooooh Canon! Please, we all know that Marvel's canon has less firepower than a bottle rocket.
I think that horse whispering is a power lol!
I also don't think I'm grasping at straws (you are over analyzing it though!) as someone has to be wearing the suit and I can easily see it being MM if there was a twist to be had. The vindicator hit is a VERY strong indicator of invunerability, and its far more likely that he was able to take that hit by himself due to powers or bad writing as opposed to your "getting off on pain" explanation. He also takes and dishes several hits during the wax fight that would point to him having invunerability.
One power he definately has is: PURE UNADULTERATED GOODNESS!!
god i'm tired.
Look. Vindicator's powers originally the product of a suit, yes?
And in MAc's case, later became the result of cybernetics.
Neither of which would be duplicated bya clone. A clone is generated from pure biological tissue. So maybe the Plodex Vindicator had a crappy suit with no strength enhancement. Seems simple enough to me.
Mac's cybernetics became ignored as evident in the X-Men vs. Alpha Flight battle where Northstar ripped off the suit and left James powerless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Transmetropolitan
Also if that were the case, than how did the Plodex copy magic? Such as Shaman still was able to do magical spells and it's not due to genetics. He relys on his pouch, did they copy that as well? Also the Plodex are very advanced, I wouldn't put it pass them to even copy the suit as they already have it in captivity a long with the rest of Alpha Flight.
Maybe they didn't actually copy magic. Maybe they came up with biological approximations instead. Makes more sense than any other explanation.
I think what makes the most sense is actually just what appeared to happen: "We took all of their powers, nuff said."
Except that they clearly didn't. MMLJr has no powers. Stated fact. Therefore, had they actually copied AF's powers perfectly, Sadler should've been little more than a greasy smudge on Clone Vindicator's knuckles.
MMjr took direct abuse from his father, who is most definately super human. MMjr managed to take that abuse and not become a grease stain. I think that may signify something.
Besides, I think we may be overthinking this a bit. First rule of science? The easiest explanation is probably the best. Thus, using this, did the plodexes make substandard copies? Probably not, that would be a waste of their time to create only half hazard copies.
Also, using this, lets remember too that MMjr's father was Major Mapleleaf, who came really close to beating the snot out of Northstar. As we've learned from the X Universe, the mutancy gene tends to pass on. It's not that hard a leap to think that perhaps MMjr inherited that gene. He may not be super powerful, but he has enough to get by.
Totally incorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
In a situation like that, in most levels of amnesia(obviously disregarding total wherein the subject would be unable to talk, walk, etc etc) skills and characteristics are dormant, and it's the details and memories that are unable to be accessed.
In a hand to hand situation that faced self preservation instinct would take over.
Although maybe not on a Tarantino scale :lol:
Okay, lets take it to a basic stereotypical level.Quote:
Wow, come on dude. You also have to take into account even force. A full punch from Plodex Vindicator didn't even BUDGE HIM. Masking pain, which I doubt even was the case was one thing, but not moving at all...impressive feat.
A female(Vindicator) throws a punch at a male, the male(MMLJ) doesn't move and isn't hurt.
Proves nothing.
Have we ever seen Heather punch out a male before?
Do we know that she could move a male with just one punch?
Genuine question there.
That's what THEY said, yes.Quote:
They did, "ALL your powers, your abilities, your memories".
They were hardly likely to say "Hey we created some half-assed clones of some second rate Avengers wannabe team and we're going to take over the world using them by sitting here and doing absolutely nothing with a bunch of alien eggs, scary eh?" :wink:
No, it's nothing at all like that.Quote:
So that's like an average joe taking a punch from Sasquatch and not budging.
Dig up some of your handbook scans and compare Heather's strength to Walt(in Sasquatch form)'s... not comparable.
Heather's multiple tons now??? Wow... I've heard of mother's gaining wait during pregnancy but geez...Quote:
Come on man, I'm all for MMJr. just being peak human, but honestly if a multiple ton character punched you, you actual believe you wouldn't even move?
Would this be the Spider-man with super strength and powers, as opposed to a woman in a geothermal suit?Quote:
Spider-Man even holding back has sent "normal" people flying with a mere flick of his finger.
Why do you care so much that he was able to take a punch? :lol:Quote:
why do I care if he has powers?
I'm not gonna continue to argue this, but I do have to wonder: Are you an expert on amnesia Phil? Where are you getting all of this?
That said, I don't see why a theory needs to be jumped on... :roll:
It's not an arguement, so relax.
"Expert" is a bit strong, but I know a fair bit, yes.
But that's irrelevant.
I was just using my personal knowledge as an example for one part of why I believe what I believe and my reasoning for it.
I don't believe I'm jumping on any theory; merely just debating, discussing and giving my thoughts. (And if we're going to band "theory jumping" comments about then it could be equally said that my theory is being jumped on)
If I disagree with a theory then I disagree, and I'll state my case why.
It's what we do here.
Nothing personal is meant by it.
However if you or KM has taken any offence by it, I apologise wholeheartedly; feel free to speak to Ben if you have a problem with my posts.
Tottally incorrect eh? show me even one example of this. I eQuote:
Originally Posted by Phil
WHAT? OMG...Also yes, Heather in the Vindicator suit was manhandling normal assassins with her strength. She even lifted Sasquatch up with one arm. So basically your saying she is a woman and can't punch out a man?Quote:
Okay, lets take it to a basic stereotypical level.
A female(Vindicator) throws a punch at a male, the male(MMLJ) doesn't move and isn't hurt.
Proves nothing.
Have we ever seen Heather punch out a male before?
Do we know that she could move a male with just one punch?
Genuine question there.
First off do we know they were half-assed clones? I even highly doubt it as their Plodex and super advanced. Even when the Master made the Plodex army they were even faster than speedsters and faster than Namor underwater. Collector even stated the Plodex are the most violent and dangerous in the galaxy and made it their job to intergrate specices with theirs.Quote:
That's what THEY said, yes.
They were hardly likely to say "Hey we created some half-assed clones of some second rate Avengers wannabe team and we're going to take over the world using them by sitting here and doing absolutely nothing with a bunch of alien eggs, scary eh?" :wink:
Actually it is comparable, Sasquatch is class 70, Heather is somewhere between 25-75 ton range (geothermal). I would like you to show me an example of a norm taking a punch from a person with super strength and completly out for blood and not even budging. Wow, I'm shocked you actully believe a normal person can take super punched blows.Quote:
No, it's nothing at all like that.
Dig up some of your handbook scans and compare Heather's strength to Walt(in Sasquatch form)'s... not comparable.
.Quote:
Heather's multiple tons now??? Wow... I've heard of mother's gaining wait during pregnancy but geez..
Not weight, handbooks state her strength is multiple tons. If Guardian who even could press 1.5 tons and Wolverin saying "nearly knocked my head off", how would a norm fair better with a person who is vastly stronger?
A woman in a geothermal suit that has super strength far superior to Spider-Man, and a Plodex clone out for blood. It's an example where a comparison of a normal taking a blow from a super powered individual.Quote:
Would this be the Spider-man with super strength and powers, as opposed to a woman in a geothermal suit?
I don't all I said is he took the punch, which happened in the comics.Quote:
Why do you care so much that he was able to take a punch? :lol:
Maybe all the childhood abuse toughened up Junior?
How clearly were Thunder's powers defined? Junior foolwed everyone into thinking he had powers for a while, so maybe Thunder could temporarily transfer them to Junior? It would explain his sporadic durability AND powerlessness.
In keeping with the simplest explanation...bad writing?
How'bout them twins?
Oh yea the Twins, kinda forgot about them :-) I really hope they get sorted out in the Annual, but would be loath to see them become secondary characters in some 'X' title.
I've already stated I don't want to argue, but hey ho..
Find some medical journals, some science text books, wikipedia 'amnesia', google for the case of The Piano Man(no not Billy Joel :wink: ).Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
But anyway, that's neither here nor there to the actual punch issue, just the whole memories don't equal skills.
Heather only wore the geothermal suit for volume 2, and I don't recall any assassins in that, or her lifting Sasquatch with one arm.Quote:
WHAT? OMG...Also yes, Heather in the Vindicator suit was manhandling normal assassins with her strength. She even lifted Sasquatch up with one arm. So basically your saying she is a woman and can't punch out a man?
Not saying it didn't happen, just that I don't recall it.
Find me a scan and all this will be over.
And not saying because she's a woman she can't punch out a man. I made a clear point that if we taking a stereotypical view the female would be weaker.
Okay, okay, so my humour didn't exactly shine through there, my bad.Quote:
First off do we know they were half-assed clones? I even highly doubt it as their Plodex and super advanced. Even when the Master made the Plodex army they were even faster than speedsters and faster than Namor underwater. Collector even stated the Plodex are the most violent and dangerous in the galaxy and made it their job to intergrate specices with theirs.
My point was just that if they were that powerful, a team of rank amateurs wouldn't have been able to beat them.
Hmm.. so Heather in a suit that controls geothermal forces without giving any extra strength has as strong a punch as Sasquatch?Quote:
Actually it is comparable, Sasquatch is class 70, Heather is somewhere between 25-75 ton range (geothermal).
Like I said before, if you've got an actual scan that can show that, I'll gladly end this all here.
Not saying you're wrong, just that it doesn't add up.
Therein lies my point; Heather doesn't have super strength.Quote:
I would like you to show me an example of a norm taking a punch from a person with super strength and completly out for blood and not even budging.Wow, I'm shocked you actully believe a normal person can take super punched blows.
That's what all this is about in my eyes.
Once again I'm at a loss as to where you think geothermal = strength?Quote:
A woman in a geothermal suit that has super strength far superior to Spider-Man, and a Plodex clone out for blood. It's an example where a comparison of a normal taking a blow from a super powered individual.
So, I'm actually going to dig out the handbook scan...
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...on/vinbook.jpg
Right, poor scan I know, but I'm on the move.
"fair hand-to-hand combatant"
"Vindicator's battle-suit allows her to siphon tectonic energy and release it in the form of magma blasts, geyser bursts and other such phenomena."
Power; "Strength = 2 out of 7". (If I recall correctly MMLJ's strength was 3?)
I honestly can't see anything there to suggest any super strength at all, and the stats show she's weaker than MMLJ.
I stick with my reasoning.
Then that's fine.Quote:
I don't all I said is he took the punch, which happened in the comics.
I completely 1000000000000000000% agree that he took the punch.
Like you said, it happened so it happened. I'm not disputing that.
I personally disagree that that makes him special though.
I shall say no more upon the subject for boring everyone else.
I just asked my mom and she is a nurse and been in the medical field and she says it's not like that. As you said moot pointQuote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
I meant E-M suit, but as pointed out in the handbook which can see seen below states she is actually stronger than her E-M suit. Except Heather has the experience of fighting for years and has been trained to even fight hand to hand. This isn't an average woman, this is a seasoned veteran in combat situations.Quote:
Heather only wore the geothermal suit for volume 2, and I don't recall any assassins in that, or her lifting Sasquatch with one arm.
Not saying it didn't happen, just that I don't recall it.
Find me a scan and all this will be over.
And not saying because she's a woman she can't punch out a man. I made a clear point that if we taking a stereotypical view the female would be weaker.
They were amateurs as a team, but they still showed great skill. Even if the Plodex clones were half the strength of the originals you still don't think what MMJ did was impressive?Quote:
First off do we know they were half-assed clones? I even highly doubt it as their Plodex and super advanced. Even when the Master made the Plodex army they were even faster than speedsters and faster than Namor underwater. Collector even stated the Plodex are the most violent and dangerous in the galaxy and made it their job to intergrate specices with theirs.
Okay, okay, so my humour didn't exactly shine through there, my bad.
My point was just that if they were that powerful, a team of rank amateurs wouldn't have been able to beat them.
No the suit gives her super strength as the scan will show below.Quote:
Hmm.. so Heather in a suit that controls geothermal forces without giving any extra strength has as strong a punch as Sasquatch?
Like I said before, if you've got an actual scan that can show that, I'll gladly end this all here.
Not saying you're wrong, just that it doesn't add up.
She does.Quote:
Therein lies my point; Heather doesn't have super strength.
That's what all this is about in my eyes.
Here is the scan stating her strength:Quote:
A woman in a geothermal suit that has super strength far superior to Spider-Man, and a Plodex clone out for blood. It's an example where a comparison of a normal taking a blow from a super powered individual
Once again I'm at a loss as to where you think geothermal = strength?
So, I'm actually going to dig out the handbook scan...
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...on/vinbook.jpg
Right, poor scan I know, but I'm on the move..
"fair hand-to-hand combatant"
"Vindicator's battle-suit allows her to siphon tectonic energy and release it in the form of magma blasts, geyser bursts and other such phenomena."
Power; "Strength = 2 out of 7". (If I recall correctly MMLJ's strength was 3?)
I honestly can't see anything there to suggest any super strength at all, and the stats show she's weaker than MMLJ.
I stick with my reasoning.
1. http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...t3/ME2-068.jpg
2. http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...t3/ME2-240.jpg
Even the handbooks prior to the recent entry stated Mac had normal strength and we know that's false. They also stated Mac had normal speed, and we know that's flase, plus normal intelligence, then their is Puck entry ignoring events that happened...etc...etc...etc
As I said do I think he is powerless? yes of course, but that feat had superhuman abilities. Wether it be retconned or a writers error.Quote:
Then that's fine.
I completely 1000000000000000000% agree that he took the punch.
Like you said, it happened so it happened. I'm not disputing that.
I personally disagree that that makes him special though.
I shall say no more upon the subject for boring everyone else.
I already hate myself for carrying on with this, but ho hum..
:lol: I can't believe you played that card...Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
Which she hasn't worn for some time now, and the plodex clone wasn't wearing...Quote:
I meant E-M suit
Even though her most recent handbook entry says she is "fair"Quote:
Except Heather has the experience of fighting for years and has been trained to even fight hand to hand. This isn't an average woman, this is a seasoned veteran in combat situations.
No, I don't. That's my whole point.Quote:
Even if the Plodex clones were half the strength of the originals you still don't think what MMJ did was impressive?
I've seen people take punches in the real world before.
Yet her latest bio contradicts her old one.Quote:
No the suit gives her super strength as the scan will show below.
Then untill we can get a definite resolution from Marvel about which strength is accurate we're never going to agree.Quote:
Even the handbooks prior to the recent entry stated Mac had normal strength and we know that's false. They also stated Mac had normal speed, and we know that's flase, plus normal intelligence, then their is Puck entry ignoring events that happened...etc...etc...etc
That won't happen, so we're not going to.
Can we leave it at agreeing to disagree.
:lol: What are superhuman abilities if they're not powers? :lol:Quote:
As I said do I think he is powerless? yes of course, but that feat had superhuman abilities.
heh, some might say the whole series was a writers error :wink:Quote:
Wether it be retconned or a writers error.
Besides, chances are he's dead now, eh?
I'm no expert, so I talked to my mother who actually has experience with that first hand in the old folks home she currently works at and emergQuote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Thanks I know, but as stated the geothermal is far stronger than the E-M suit.Quote:
Which she hasn't worn for some time now, and the plodex clone wasn't wearing...
Another handbook entry goes against fair training, saying she is a "master combat strategist". Also anyways fair does not mean bad, far from it actuallyQuote:
Even though her most recent handbook entry says she is "fair"
You would be wrong, even Northstar going mach three into a person exploded a "norm". Real people who have super strength? I beg to differ, hell I used to box for 5 years and getting hit by a person vastly stronger than you and not budging is damn near impossible. Especially right in the chest.Quote:
No, I don't. That's my whole point.
I've seen people take punches in the real world before.
Yet other handbooks greatly contradict the newest one. We know she doesn't just have normal strength, they even stated Guardian for the longest time had normal strengthQuote:
Yet her latest bio contradicts her old one.
That's fine with me.Quote:
Then untill we can get a definite resolution from Marvel about which strength is accurate we're never going to agree.
That won't happen, so we're not going to.
Can we leave it at agreeing to disagree.
Look at Captain America feats, for example he threw a shield that caught up and hit a cruise missle after it was already lauched and he is just peak human. Have you seen the stuff he has done?Quote:
:lol: What are superhuman abilities if they're not powers? :lol:
I didn't mind him as a whole, just the direction they went about itQuote:
heh, some might say the whole series was a writers error :wink:
Besides, chances are he's dead now, eh?
Regarding memory and skills; a person who can remember how, say, a deisel engine or a nuclear weapon is built can build one. In this case, memory = skill.
HTH and athletics work a bit different. One might remember how to do, say, a backflip, but if they lack the necessary tools, eg. strength, coordiantion, etc. they can't do one. It would be like trying to build a nuke without uranium or whatever.
Generally, having natural physical aptitude trumps technique. Not to dismiss the value of technique -- which can make a naturally gifted fighter incredibly awesome -- but there are many welltrained martial artists that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. This is so because, despite their training, they simply lack the natural aptitude to apply it.
A person for instance might have a PhD in Physics, but that doesn't make them a Hawkings or an Einstein... or even top or middle of their graduating class.
I don't know all that much about the Plodex, save from early issues of vol.1, but I do remember that super-strength was one of their attributes. If they were attempting to mimic a person with super-strength this seems reasonable that said person had some degree of super-strength.
I think that good points were made regarding technology and magic, but I guess that since such "clones" demonstrated such powers that they were, as suggested, approximations.
While it is true that there are powerlifters that couldn't utilize anything approaching their full punch-power potential, you probably still wouldn't want to be hit by one of those guys... muchless by someone that can press over a 2000 lbs.
I would tend to think that even a weak punch from someone with low-grade superhuman strength would at least be able to drive a big strong man back. On the otherhand, real world physics don't necessarily hold up all that well in comicbooks. And whether or not a person could take the punch, while smiling, is very relative.
Some peple have chins of iron and can walk through even strong punchers. And of course, sometimes light weight can help deprive a punch of its power. Take swating an airborn fly for instances or kicking a cardboard box that isn't somehow rooted. Of course, it sound as if Jr. just took the punch without budging, so...
And, incidently, in what issue do we see MML Sr. hauling off and smacking Jr. in? To the best of my knoweldge, which is hardly vast, all we ever get is an implication, based on Jr.'s subjective memory at that.
Not that it is all that unrealistic considering what Stark said about pretty well all subjects of WWII super-solider experiments in his CW: Files, but it just seems to me, based on my scant knowledge admittedly, that people are out to paint MML Sr. as abusive based on very little evidence.
As stated in one place and contradicted in another.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
Never once said fair means bad, just that it doesn't mean super strength,Quote:
Another handbook entry goes against fair training, saying she is a "master combat strategist". Also anyways fair does not mean bad, far from it actually
Erm, I'd be wrong in not being impressed by a piece of fiction in a comic book?Quote:
You would be wrong
So you have a spider-sense that tells you whenever I personally am impressed or not?
Is there a law written within the pages that says I have to be impressed by it just because you are?
Ding ding ding ding... we have an oxymoron...Quote:
Real people who have super strength?
She's only had 2 handbook entries in her geothermal suit, one that I've posted, one that you have - both of which contradict each other = stalemate.Quote:
Yet other handbooks greatly contradict the newest one.
Good.Quote:
That's fine with me.
Erm... he's a super-soldier, with super strength from a super syrum.... ?Quote:
Look at Captain America feats, for example he threw a shield that caught up and hit a cruise missle after it was already lauched and he is just peak human.
No you made that comment about how woman can't punch as hard as woman. We know she does have a form of super strength.Quote:
Never once said fair means bad, just that it doesn't mean super strength,
No you said you could take a punch without even buding from a person vastly stronger than you. What you want to be impressed with is not of my concern. Basically your commenting on something I never even was commenting on.Quote:
You would be wrong
Erm, I'd be wrong in not being impressed by a piece of fiction in a comic book?
So you have a spider-sense that tells you whenever I personally am impressed or not?
Is there a law written within the pages that says I have to be impressed by it just because you are?
Real people can't lift multiple tons.Quote:
Ding ding ding ding... we have an oxymoron...
I meant other areas such as abilities, and fighting skills. Which won't matter what armor you pick but they still contradict each other.Quote:
She's only had 2 handbook entries in her geothermal suit, one that I've posted, one that you have - both of which contradict each other = stalemate.
Nope handbooks once again state he is peak human, the serum only made him peak human at topsQuote:
Erm... he's a super-soldier, with super strength from a super syrum.... ?
Show me where I said that and I'll give you a billion dollars. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
ARGH! We don't at all!!!!Quote:
We know she does have a form of super strength.
Once again, please re-read what I wrote carefully.Quote:
No you said you could take a punch without even buding from a person vastly stronger than you.
Never once have I mentioned me myself taking a punch personally.
And once again, we're at stalemate about Heather being stronger.
So why did you say I was wrong to not be impressed;Quote:
What you want to be impressed with is not of my concern.
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
....?Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
See above.Quote:
Basically your commenting on something I never even was commenting on.
Which backs up my point.... :?Quote:
Real people can't lift multiple tons.
Neither of which would add anything to the strength of a punch and whether or not it would move MMLJ....Quote:
I meant other areas such as abilities, and fighting skills.
So we're still at stalemate?Quote:
Which won't matter what armor you pick but they still contradict each other.
So MMLJ is a peak human as well, so he is on strength levels of Cap, both of which are shown in one set of handbooks to be stronger than Heather.Quote:
Nope handbooks once again state he is peak human, the serum only made him peak human at tops
Which again, gives credit to MMLJ being able to take a punch from her...
My Dads Bigger Than Your Dad :-)
We actually had a very long drawn out debate on this matter a while back over at the Classic Marvel RPG site.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
Apparently Cap was shown working out with some other hero and bench pressing an absolutely insane weight. Pretty well all sources however rank his strength at maximum human. The thing is, they list max. human as an 800 lb. military press. NO ONE ON RECORD has ever military pressed 800 lbs. The record stands somewhere around 600 lbs!
I would say that consistent in-comic demonstrations trump handbooks. Take Saquatch for instance, who has consistently displayed Class 100 strength levels in various comics, and yet who is consistently listed as an 80-tonner in pretty well all handbooks.
I would say that Cap is capable of exceptional feats of strength... slightly beyond that attainable for a human being of any build/weight, but not approaching any kind of weight that could be measured in tons.
The truly remarkable thing about Cap isn't his strength, but his combination of physical attributes in combination with his height, weight and build. He is (at least) as strong as a 320 lb. powerlifter, as agile as a 5' tall 135 lb gymnast, can sprint or long jump as fast and far as a 190 lb. (black) sprinter, has the stamina of a 110 lb marathon runner, the reflexes of a light weight boxer, is well above and beyond a world class 180 lb decathelete in all areas, etc.
THAT is what truly makes Cap *super* human.
Your right, this is what you said. "Do we know that she could move a male with just one punch?". I thought you said "could a female move a male with just one punch".Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Yet you keep claiming MMJ is stronger. Also here lets look at it this way, if she didn't have a form of super strength why would she even try to punch MMJ?Quote:
ARGH! We don't at all!!!!
"I could take several rounds of punches from a mugger before passing out or whatever, it doesn't give me super powers." Fine, it's a stalemateQuote:
Once again, please re-read what I wrote carefully.
Never once have I mentioned me myself taking a punch personally.
And once again, we're at stalemate about Heather being stronger.
I was talking compeltly about something else, such as taking a punch and not budging from a super powered individua;.Quote:
So why did you say I was wrong to not be impressed;
See below.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
What? no you claimed if a multiple ton character punched a norm they wouldn't even budge. Yet countless examples contradict that. Then there is the whole fact MMJ even killed the Plodex VindicatorQuote:
Which backs up my point.... :?
Neither of which would add anything to the strength of a punch and whether or not it would move MMLJ....Quote:
I meant other areas such as abilities, and fighting skills.
Fine with me, just pointing out MMJ took a punch from Plodex VindicatorQuote:
So we're still at stalemate?
That's my point they are peak human, yet both can claim superhuman feats. Look at his featsQuote:
So MMLJ is a peak human as well, so he is on strength levels of Cap, both of which are shown in one set of handbooks to be stronger than Heather.
Which again, gives credit to MMLJ being able to take a punch from her...
I know he was doing it with Demolition Man, but Cap has also survived falling 100 stories with no damage and landing on his feet *jumped out of a helicopter*.Quote:
Originally Posted by Powersurge
I agree, as handbooks greatly contradict what was shown in comics as I mentioned earlier.
Here's a good list of his feats: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t390466.html
Jumping out of a helicopter isn't that impressive.
If it's on the ground.
Or if you end up a smear. :?
My take has always been that MML has powers, kinda, but they're stored in Thunder, kinda. So, while he technically has powers when Thunder is around, he doesn't when Thunder's gone. And Thunder always has powers.
So, Thunder can focus powers through him, or something.
- Le Messor
"Atheism is the result of ignorance and pride; of strong sense and feeble reasons; of good eating and ill-living. It is the plague of society, the corrupter of manners, and the underminer of property."
- Jeremy Collier
My claim is that the recent handbooks say that he is stronger, and that he has no powers.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
That's all I have to go on. That's the only reason I've added anything to this thread.
Because 'she' was an evil Plodex and he was trying to stop 'her' taking over the world?Quote:
Also here lets look at it this way, if she didn't have a form of super strength why would she even try to punch MMJ?
Which surely indicates he was stronger?Quote:
Then there is the whole fact MMJ even killed the PlodexVindicator
Which I agree with.Quote:
Fine with me, just pointing out MMJ took a punch from Plodex Vindicator
It makes him strong, peak human, but I still wouldn't go as far as to say super strong.
Okay, I just find it hard to believe that a Super Soldier is weaker than a female who up untill her husband died was a simple young housewife, and has suddenly become a super strengthed individual in a short while, in the grand scheme of Marvel timeQuote:
That's my point they are peak human, yet both can claim superhuman feats.
Then this whole topic is Marvel's fault :wink:Quote:
I agree, as handbooks greatly contradict what was shown in comics as I mentioned earlier.
My browser wouldn't open the link at the top of the thread, which, apparently, contained the juicy stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
When you mention the 100 story fall and jump out of a heli, are you refering to ultmiate Cap in the ultiamte Avengers movie?
That Cap also displayed strength that was easily superhuman.
Y'all, I think Powersurge made an excellent point. And since no one seemed to notice it, I figured I'd quote it. Because he has a total point, even if Plodex Heather wasn't at her actual strongest, she was still pretty darn strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Powersurge
Though as for Major Mapleleaf Sr not being abusive... he was in one heck of a mental state in #106. He tried to kill an innocent baby. I don't think it's too far a leap to think that maybe he smacked his son around a bit, especially if his son wasn't as 'good' as Michael. Though where is MMjr's mother?
Probably dead from her husband beating. Actually, I would like to see MMF senior as a villain, suit him better with such an awful name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Effexxor
And as for judo, one you learn, you never forget, your body knows the movement before my mind, it's just I'm not in shape anymore. Anyway, I never really knew what I was doing, instinct where there and I was winning(sometimes), that's all I asked for. For the rest I agree with Del, your dad better than mine, oups I think it's my dad better than yours.
I have no experience with amnesia (OK, a little) but I think you would still have skills. After all, can't amnesiacs talk and walk and so on? It's only one part of the brain and there's a lot going on there, amnesia really does only afftect memory right?
:lol: My country has more tanks than your country.Quote:
Originally Posted by DelBubs