Printable View
I don't really have much to add to this, hopefully MMLjr has bought the big one anyhow and this is all moot. I just wanted to comment so I could stick a quote in, in response to Le Messor quote about Aetheist, being an aetheist myself I couldn't let it pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven Weinberg (1933 - )
Well not being an atheist I see things differently, especially about reasons. Beyond yourself, most atheists I know have a hard time doing good works or charity off the cuff, I always have to talk them into it. But people who believe in God, I ask and they do, simply because it's 'right', they don't need more. It's tiring trying to get one of my atheists to run volunteerism or do simple nice things some days, they need reasons why 'they' have to do it, why it matters, but my religious (sort of) people just do it because it helps and helping is good because the Bible says so. But we all have different experiences, some say religious Hitler (was he??) while others point out atheist Pot and Stalin et al.
Religion doesn't make good people evil, when people do evil they'll rationalize it with any ideology/paradigm, from religion to capitalism to Americanism to Consumerism to atheism to talibanism (as if that's a religion!! If it is, then so is stalinism) to....
Why are we on this topic anyway?
Cos we're in the cupboard baby...
Firstly I've split off from the original topic. Secondly I hope the thread dies very quickly, you never get anywhere with Religious discussion.
As to why we're on the topic, I guess it's my sensitive nature. I've always tried to be respectful of peoples beliefs and try not to say something that could offend someone who believes in God. Now I do this because a few years back on the old Alpha Waves mailing list I said something in Jest that offended and I got a terse reminder about respecting peoples believes etc. Now I just think that as an aetheist I should be afforded the same consideration. Like I said prolly me being too sensitive, but there ya go...
First, Del, sorry.
I'm now in the sitch you described. :oops:
Second, I can't believe I just posted that about five minutes ago. :oops:
No biggy Mik. I think my hormones must be playing up. One minute I'm :lol: the next :cry: And before any one can say it, yes it's prolly my age.
Maybe you're pregnant? :twisted:
Sorry, but since when do religious people volunteer more than atheists? My atheist friends are generally a lot more worried in the state of things and volunteer more than my christian friends.
Bah, as an agnostic, I can truthfully say that I know some atheists who are just as preachy and annoying as their religious counterparts.
I think we can all agree that the human race is full of great, selfless people and also complete nutcases. Personally I know many people of different religions that do dispicable things. I know a few priests that should never have been given care of younger boys. I myself was born a Catholic, baptised, got my first communion, went to Catechism for 8 years and am still an Atheist. I volunteer and help others in daily life because it makes me feel good, not because I'm scared of going to hell if I don't. Religous people, like any people, when forced to act in a way not in their nature, will eventually crack and do something stupid. Nice people, religous or not, will do good things because that's who they are. Again, the human race has all kinds. I believe in Big Bangs, others believe in miracles. Some people are good some people are George W. Bush. The only problem I have with religion are those people who kill others because they don't believe the same thing. I guess it's just hard for me to believe people can meet other cultures and not be facinated by them and want to learn more, instead of the blood baths that are all too common on this planet.
=D> =D> =D> Bravo ! =D> =D> =D>Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucklehead
It's called andropause for you mister.Quote:
Originally Posted by DelBubs
As for the rest, I just believe everyone is catholic but don't practice much anymore...euh, wait, ah... That's my case. Anyway, I don't really think it's important as long as everyone respect everyone.[/url]
No big deal anyway. This is what I think: people do bad things not out of beliefs, but out of wanting to do bad things or letting themselves get out of control. No matter how you look at it, when people do evil they rationalize it so that it isn't their fault.
Blame the victim, society, Jews, Catholics, Blacks, atheists, Leaf fans, liberals, communists, aliens, science fiction, tv, whatever.
Justify by saying it's God's will, it needed doing, it helps the economy, I was 'saving' future lives, I was defending my team, I was defending my religion, I was in need of money, I deserve more, I was defending my country...
I have no beef with anyone over their beliefs as long as they don't hurt anyone. Beliefs don't kill, people do. They just look for support by espousing a belief or two, like Christianity, Islam, consumerism, individualism, whatever.
But I have no need to preach or rant really, just tired. If MML jr is dead, as I expect, and Shaman is dead, and so on, I don't see how religion or atheism matters, or anything else. It is, after all, a comic.
I figure they'll deal with the deaths in Omega Flight very early, since there's no reason to think now that they'll deal with it in Civil War.
:) Despite where it started, I think that's now a different thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokole
Unless you're saying you've got an Alpha Nihilist belief system: "If Alpha Flight is dead, nothing really matters. Anyone can see nothing really matters to me."
I was never a church goin' kind of person but I was always a bit interested in goin'. I have faith and I believe in certain things but I don't associate it with one type of organized religion or another. Is there a God? Sure why not. Did he create us? Maybe but we didn't just come out of nowhere. Evolution.
An old sayin' goes- Faith was a good idea until man put religion behind it. I truly believe that. I don't know if that has a certain term or not.
But I certainly have no problem with anyones beliefs or religion. As long as they don't push it upon anyone else.
Ah, to be a Nihilist... been a long time since I've even heard that term. Maybe since university :shock:Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
I can really say about 10 'issues' really matter to me, and 4 live in my house :wink:
If I were to really point out all my beliefs, I'd probably get flamed awfully fast. Not that any are evil or anything, but I'm sure a few of our lurkers wouldn't like my views on health, consumerism, and happiness. Aren't I a stinker :P
Why, if I was pregnant, I may have to change my whole belief system :oops:Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
To best sum up my aetheism
The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not.
Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)
I would like to respond to one specific thing, I totally agree that people will commit any kind of atrocity and evil deed, then justify it by hiding behind a twisted interpretation of religious text or doctrine.
I'm agnostic. I have found athiests--the organized Athiests as annoying as religious people, with Madeline O'Hare trying to make athiesm a form of religion and objecting that an astronaut would dare read a prayer while away from earth on Christmas.
Some people may find my background interesting. I was Christened a Catholic almost immediately after birth, by the adoption agency handling me. Due to a long and twisted story of my birth parents, I was not adopted until I was 2. My parents--adoptive--wanted me Christened into their family protestantism. The priest would not do it because "that child is already catholic." My parents eneded up leaving (or being asked to leave) the church over it. An aunt arranged a family christening in her Episcopalian church.
I also think that the whole Catholic priest & boys thing roots down to closet doors. I know two men who became Catholic priests because the no-marriage doctrine made an automatic cover for homosexual tendencies. They're both older, in an American age where the cover was "needed." In doing so, they entered an atmosphere where ALL sex is "WRONG" a sin, including masturbation. In a way it is sickly natural that some of the extreme no-sex nutcases would seek release with "partners" who would not reveal the "affair." There's no such thing anymore, but back in the day it could be "counted" on that through shame or coersion or "the pact of a promise," kids could be manipulated into not telling. The church looses more priests to marriage, and with less societal "need" for a closet door cover, there's actually becoming a shortage of Catholic priests.
I am a Teutonic heathen, believe in many gods and goddesses, and ahve always enjoyed the luxury of standing outside of such paradigm's in which stuff like Religion vs. Science make sense.
The quintessence of Teutonic belief about the deities can be found in the Anglo-Saxon term *weoh* (Old Norse - ve, German - weih). This word forms the root of such others words which mean *altar* and *idol*. It literally means *seperate*(from man's state of being) and carries such connontations as imply *mystery* and *unknowability*.
Thus, when it comes to such questions as whether there are one god or many, gods or goddesses, many pantheons or just one, the ultimate answer is always "we don't know".
We have a sense of something divine, like a scientist has a sense of the prescence of a black hole, but our ideas of it are patently *human* ideas and perceptions. These change and grow and evovle/devolve over time.
No matter that a god said it. What the god said was still filtered through the temporal world and one culture or another of Man. There is NO getting around that fact.
Thus why the rule of precedent has always been central to Teutonic thought and belief and culture.
We judge our attunement to the divine by the fruits of our relationship with it, as denoted in the word *halig*... from whence we get such modern words as holy, healthy, heal, and whole. If we are in tune with *weoh* then *halig* is the natural by-product. If our beliefs begin to fall out of tune with the source, our health and wholeness begin to whither and wane, prompting us to quetion and revise our beliefs.
While I don't care for aetheist that act like the newest form of monotheists, believing that they alone hold the one truth that is the ultimate source of goodness for all Mankind, I certainly have nothing against people speaking from and cleaving to their experience... so long as they are respectful of the experiences of their fellow man.
I'm not so sure that religion makes better people. I find really good people, and really bad people, in all manner of different subcultures, claiming all sort of different beliefs. I try to concern myself more with a persons honour and deeds rather than getting all caught up in ideology or who might be paying lip-service to what.
I'm not quite sure whether God is there or if he isn't. I doubt that there is a God somewhere pulling our puppet strings, but there just may be something, somewhere. However, if I live my life to the best of my ability and try to help others, that should be enough to a higher being. SOmething in me just rebels at the thought of having to 'validate' an apparently all powerful God, and the fact that if I don't do that, I will go to hell. That just doesn't seem... fair.
I like the Hindu idea 'All roads lead to God.' Because even atheists have a faith system, just their faith is in something besides a deity.
Boy if this were true. The opposite of the religioius fanatic is the angry aethiest to be sure. If you ever go onto any forums devoted entirely to extended discussions you will see what I mean, people constatnly make threads devoted entirely to posts featuring "I'm a free thinker" or "I'm not a sheep" or people like the guy you quoted earlier saying "Religions do really evil things!!"Quote:
Originally Posted by DelBubs
Its particularly fun to be Catholic, since we get blamed for pretty much everything in the world, and are generally the most discriminated against by Atheists.
I'm not saying that religions don't have these things but to say aetheists don't isn't true. I could start naming religious atrocities not done in the name of any deity, but I won't.
27% of the aids relief funds in Africa are linked to the Catholic Church.
There's lots of unknowns. I don't believe at all in String Theory, dark energy seems bogus often (slapped in to make their numbers work), the Big Bang may have happened but it's all guesswork, cosmic background radiaton may be a function of the structure of the universe not a result of a big bang, all physical properties may be tied to the essential structure of the universe that we haven't discerned yet, like with gravity, and I blather on about unknowns. So a mystery God isn't such a problem for me.
And not a single thing I said this post has anything at all to do with my religious believes. I'm a scientist and mathematician and I find fault with so much physics these days (I always found it odd that evangelists took on biology/evolution as a battleground when evolution doesn't contradict anyone's core beliefs anyway, yet don't battle over the origin of the universe which is highly debatable :roll: ).
To me, if an idea is beautiful and simple, it's correct. E = mc2. Ek = 1/2 mv2. The modern definition of combustion. Simplicity and beauty, which String Theory, current Big Bang Theory (inflation?!?), and dark energy theory ain't by a long stretch. Some day somone will do what Faraday, Newton, Ohm, Einstein, Boscovitch, Boyle et al did, and find the simple answer.
Quite true. Our Catholic group does projects like housing in Mexico, food for Palestinians, water in Africa, and more than I can remember. Then our priest gets mad at us for not giving enough!Quote:
Originally Posted by SephirothsKiller
Being good matters to me, if you're Catholic or not. Like I know what really matters to God.
To add a 'funny' thing, a friend of mine loves to go to atheist forums and Prince Di forums and.... and make fun of them for going over the top about their love of... or hatred of... or attack on... He gets banned a lot. :lol:
Ah, but couldn't one argue that a lot pf Africa's problems can be traced to missionaries interfering in the natural order of that continent. Contraception is a no no, so more than your average number of children, more mouths to feed with no real increase of food production from the indigenous peoples usual farming techniques.Quote:
Originally Posted by SephirothsKiller
I probably do feel most animosity to the Catholic church, but only if pressed on the subject. That is probably influenced by the troubles in Northern Ireland which ran during a greater part of my life. I also have difficulty with a church that will quite happily spend £2,000,000+ on a Cathedral, while people starve elsewhere. I won't even get into the latest Pope and his war record or how the Catholic church could have said something about the Concentration camps, but did nothing.
My aetheism is not something I wear like a badge, I don't often think about religion or what I do and don't believe in. To my mind all people are perfectly entitled to believe in what they want and as long as they don't press it on me, I'm fine.
Well, not to pick on Catholics, despite the history of their Church, but alot of the aid given to foreign countries comes with strings attached. It's not a Universal Brotherhood of Man type thing, but a evangelical tactic, along with policies of accomdation, in which indigenous beliefs and worldview are not challenged and conversion amounts to little more than a change in the deity-names one grunts in prayer. Thus why we of NW European heritage had this little event called the Reformation.
Anyway, the so-called gift of love, the "free" gift, is really nothin of the kind, making it somewhat hard to accept as such when it is held over one's head as somekind of pretnetious proof of moral superiority. Of course, when it gts right down to it, we all seem to help, in deed, as selflessly and as selfishly as any other group. For some the price of that help is the soul, for others it's a the mind, for others it is a few dollars and some thanks. And of course, we all have that selfless side that pops up here and there.
Personally? I'd far rather be around a catholic than a rabid fundamentalist. Catholics seem to possess the ability to think critically about their religion, or at least more so than fundamentalists who spoon fed their beliefs without taking a minute to really think about it. The countless issues with the church has kind of fostered a skepticism, at least here in Nebraska.
Catholics are pretty with charity also, except with contraception. I volunteer with the Nebraska AIDs project and good lord, the crap we get from catholics. And the pope, telling people in places where AIDs has 20% of the nation that they shouldn't use condoms... There's no excuse for that kind of behavior. But if the catholic church relaxes on that, I'll be happy.
Despite the historical friction with the Church, I also like Catholics... often even more-so than my fellow Teutonics. They celebrate more or less the same holidays that we do, have some common core value, muchly thanks to that elder policy of accomodation, and they have a proper reverence for the divine that I find lacking in (alot of) modern day heathenisms; which seem to be reactionary in their stance/s, ie. Christianity is this way, so we must be the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Effexxor
Heck, I even recall a hearing a decade or so ago that the Pope declared that doctrine is a growing evolving thing, not necesarily a perfecrted product.
In contrast, Protestantism, for all that it might have the (Biblical) truth, doesn't seem to really want what they have. And needless to say perhaps, fundie-ism is just too whacko.
I'm an atheist. I'm quite certain that God doesn't exist.
Religion corrupts everything it touches. The influence of religion on politics, on science, on sexuality, on history - is always negative.
I don't mind believers. I tend to view them as harmless cranks, unless they advocate a religious influence over politics. That gets my back up.
I'm not a "fanatical atheist," but I am an stubborn secularist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jethro Tull
This is definitely a topic folks can and will get involved in. Religious discussions always do that for some reason.
My family was brought up very Catholic. Primarily because my paternal grandmother demanded as much out of her children. My father and all of his siblings followed this doctirine until such time as it was no longer convenient for them to do so (coincided with the passing of my grandmother incidentally). Few if any of them are what I'd refer to as devout Catholics. Some still practice the faith, including my own family, but few hold all of the tenets to be absolute. Birth control has long been used in my family. For this I guess we'll burn in hell. Uncles, aunts, and cousins have all taken the Lord's name in vain. Again I suppose we'll burn. Along the way several have I'm sure shoplifted candy or comic books. BURN! If I hold all of these to be absolute, and add to it the fact that my grandmother condemned me to hell for watching Porky's Revenge and Cheech & Chong's Nice Dreams at age 13, then I'm pretty much toast. I prefer to look at it differently though. If they expected me to be perfect they wouldn't call me a "practicing Catholic".
Faith I think is a good thing. Whether that faith be in God, Allah, Buddah, the Fates, destiny, blind luck, etc. who cares! It drives us to be better people in general. Sure there are many who "use religion" to proclaim themselves superior or worse. In the end I like to believe they'll receive what is coming to them, just as all of us who are good will receive whatever reward awaits us. If I'm wrong and 40 virgins are waiting for me in heaven I won't be disappointed. I'll just accept it as another one of my many mistakes and move on to the good stuff!
Basically what I hear most folks saying here is the same thing. We are turned off by those who are overzealous about their religion of lack thereof. Hell, I don't particularly care for zealous Catholics. In fact they bother me probably more that aethiests. I prefer to surround myself and my family with people who are good to other people regardless of their race, religion, sexual orientation, social status, etc. I'm also pretty sure that no one can talk me out of living in this manner. Let em try!
Tom
Amen Brotha. Faith is a natural human trait. We all need it, to a certain degree. I know that I, on the night of September 11, prayed to somebody for peace. We need to feel like there's more to this world than all the hatred and bigotry, though some put more of an emphasis on seeing good in the world today and others are thinking more of the good in an afterlife. But I agree that no matter the religious stance, if faith makes someone's life happy and fufilled, then I can't find fault with them. As long as they don't harm anyone mentally or physically by doing so, at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnacle13
The gospel according to Jethro, followed by the gospel according to Hazel O'Connor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben
And getting back to the discussion. I personally have nothing against anyone practicing whatever faith they are comfortable with. It's when the faith they practice is put before the well being of others (Jehovahs Witnesses allowing their children etc to die for want of a blood transfusion) that rankle me. I also think some people use religion as a crutch and allow the church to make those hard decisions for them. Today I was told by my boss, a practicing christian that she would have a word with whoever is on duty at the pearly gates come my time to see if she could get me in. Explaining that my aetheism was the result of my not wanting to understand the truth. I get this kind of response on a regular basis when I state my beliefs. The term sanctimonious passes my lips a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazel O'Connor
Where do they get this pearly gates of Heaven stuff, and this Hell stuff from anyway, not too mention the immortality of the soul?! ;) The Bible I read spoke alot of a recreated Garden of Eden, Resurrection, a lake of fire called Gehenna, and the utter annihilation of the majority of the human race, but no Heaven, nor Hell, and no immortality except for a select few.
Not that I mind, mind you. As a Teutonic heathen I can certainly relate to the Gates of Heaven, Hell, Immortal soul ideas, amongst others. It's just... odd. :?
Cheers!
If it sounds too good to be true, it is.
The gates are meant to keep people in, not OUT.
I believe God is real.
I believe God is a person, not a force.
I believe He has existed a lot longer than me, knows more than I do, is bigger and more powerful than I am.
With those 'facts' in mind, I believe it is up to Him to tell me who He is, what He wants from me, how He wants me to approach Him, etc... For me to tell Him; that just wouldn't be worship.
I believe I do not have the right, the knowledge, or the power to tell Him 'I'll approach you *my* way or not at all; you are who -I- say you are, not who you say you are'.
I don't believe physical reality has ever bent to my will. I don't believe I chose where or when I was born, or who to; I don't believe I chose my natural hair colour, eye colour, or what I look like. I don't believe spiritual reality will twist on my whims, either.
With that in mind, I believe He has told us who He is. I believe He inspired a group of people to write His thoughts down; and later inspired another group to compile it--based on eyewitness accounts (yes, that includes Paul--see under 'road to Damascus').
I believe that, if you spend your life deliberately and knowingly rejecting Him, denying His Son and refusing His name, then show up at his front door one day and tell Him "I'm basically a good person, so you owe it to me to let me live with you," He'll just say "I'm basically a good person, and you've spent your life rejecting me. Try the other guy."
I believe I am getting tired of typing 'Him' and 'He' with capitals, and will now stop; it's not important.
I believe that human beings are capable of twisting anything to evil, no matter what.
With that in mind, I believe it is spurious to judge God, his book, his desires, based on what human beings do with it.
I believe this works on two levels:
First, that anybody can say they did anything in somebody's name. It doesn't make it so. I could go out tomorrow and shoot somebody, and claim Alpha Flight made me do it. If you argued there's nothing like that, I'd point out that Heather killed Snowbird, who had a crush on Mac (even in memory).
B) Even if you could find a belief system, from Buddhism to science to Hinduism to Paganism to Christianity, that hasn't yet been corrupted and used to excuse atrocities, it soon will be.
I believe that if you want to know what he wants from you, all you need is to read his book. Really read it; what it says, not what you want it to say. I believe you need to read both parts; don't stop when the Old Testament ends and expect to impress me with your knowledge.
That is what I believe.
- Michael Bennett, Oct 2006
"Ah tell you what Ah believe--**** 'appens."
- Predator 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by kozzi24
like prison.
One thing I can say about this topic is that I've met a lot of people that I've said "well if you're going to heaven why should I want to be there?"
BTW I am proudly atheist and a firm believer in "Belive what you want. Just don't inflict it on me."
JohnnyCanuck
Hmmm... The word "Inflict" betrays a less than accepting viewpoint methinks.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck
That said, I just wanted to note that when I saw this topic I thought it said: "aesthetisism do you believe?" Stupid Gothic Film class corrupting my mind. :D