Pencil Practice Proposal.

Ok, I'd like to test my ability to pencil a comic book.

What I would like is for someone here to pick an issue of Alpha Flight that you found the art disappointing in, and script it for me. (Extra points if Kyle is in it, of course. lol)

I always thought some of the art in certain runs was just downright unfortunate, so I figure it would be great to challenge myself and hopefully re-create an issue of Alpha Flight better than it was before.

Is anyone up for this?

I tried that once with #75. Didn't get very far...

I'd like to see it done better, but seriously don't have the time to re-script it.

- Le Messor
"I'd love to, but I'm trying to see how long I can go without saying yes."

Lann the Sorcerer story arc? Yeah, that stands out in my mind as one of the biggest low points art-wise, too. I don't know if the writing can be saved though.

Well, now that I think about it, maybe the writing wouldn't seem so bad to me if the art weren't so ridiculous.


Now that I'm leafing through the books, I'm realizing that Michael Bair is even worse than John Calimee. And where the hell do they get these terrible inkers and colorists? They almost give the last run or two of X-Factor a run for their money. Almost. XD So many random blue walls and purple floors and stuff. lol

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Originally Posted by EccentricSage

Well, now that I think about it, maybe the writing wouldn't seem so bad to me if the art weren't so ridiculous.

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That's why I chose that issue - I liked it so much I read it, like, three times in a couple of days - and I was no fan of the art.

- Le Messor
"NyQuil, the stuffy, sneezy, why-the-heck-is-the-room-spinning medicine."

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Originally Posted by EccentricSage

Well, now that I think about it, maybe the writing wouldn't seem so bad to me if the art weren't so ridiculous.


Now that I'm leafing through the books, I'm realizing that Michael Bair is even worse than John Calimee. And where the hell do they get these terrible inkers and colorists? They almost give the last run or two of X-Factor a run for their money. Almost. XD So many random blue walls and purple floors and stuff. lol

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C'mon where else can you see a heroes individual toes in their costume other then from Bair? BTW one of my other fav artists is David Ross (sans Talaoc inks). I was so excited when he came on because I had seen his work on a Star Trek annual and I also seem to remember that he is Canadian. Best of luck on your redo. I have been working on one that I came up with as a way to resurrect Alpha (that is before Chaos War came out).



DIGGER

I looked him up for different examples, and I'll give it to Bair that he's great at sexy pin up art. But I hate his work in Alpha Flight. The page layouts just look so wonky to me, as do some of the faces, though the faces might be partially the work of this terrible inker. In all fairness, I know bad inkers alone can ruin the art. But I just see issues like too much talking heads, the use of too many tiny panels on a single page to express an action sequence that could have been done in fewer panels with more dynamic art, and then there's the 'are those the characters viewed from the top of a building or ants' type panels, complete with the itsy bitsy depictions of the characters doing wonky poses... And characters' heights keep changing around, too. Just looks real sloppy... maybe he got better later in his career? Also, I never liked the idea of super heroes just wearing leotards. God forbid one of them step on something sharp in battle. lol So if I see toes through fabric, it bugs me. XD

Thank you for your well wishes, though. I don't mean to bash an artist you like but, like I said, maybe the early part of his run on Alpha was just rough?

Bair's work on Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper was excellent.

- Le Messor
"Can you describe the individual?
He was about medium height and had a beard.
Was this a male, or a female?"
~ alleged real court transcript.

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the use of too many tiny panels on a single page to express an action sequence that could have been done in fewer panels with more dynamic art

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As Dale Eaglesham's better half recently pointed out to me, the artist has no control over the amount or size of panels per page, he has to go by what the writer tells him to do on the page.

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Originally Posted by EccentricSage

I looked him up for different examples, and I'll give it to Bair that he's great at sexy pin up art. But I hate his work in Alpha Flight. The page layouts just look so wonky to me, as do some of the faces, though the faces might be partially the work of this terrible inker. In all fairness, I know bad inkers alone can ruin the art. But I just see issues like too much talking heads, the use of too many tiny panels on a single page to express an action sequence that could have been done in fewer panels with more dynamic art, and then there's the 'are those the characters viewed from the top of a building or ants' type panels, complete with the itsy bitsy depictions of the characters doing wonky poses... And characters' heights keep changing around, too. Just looks real sloppy... maybe he got better later in his career? Also, I never liked the idea of super heroes just wearing leotards. God forbid one of them step on something sharp in battle. lol So if I see toes through fabric, it bugs me. XD

Thank you for your well wishes, though. I don't mean to bash an artist you like but, like I said, maybe the early part of his run on Alpha was just rough?

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I wouldn't say I liked him, tolerated maybe, preferred over others maybe but I was being sarcastic about being able to see the toes of our heroes (that drove me nuts about as much as some of the yoga poses he put the characters in).

DIGGER

Flightpath,
Wait wait... the writer doesn't just describe what happens on each page, but NUMBERS the panels and dictates the details of each panel? Well damn, guess who's never going to bother with the industry then? LOL That's some hard core micro-managing.

Digger,
Oh. XD
'Yoga Poses'. That is a damn good way to put it. Don't forget the porno poses. XD One of the pages I came across on google was downright hilarious.

Aw, FlightPath, I could hug you for caring enough to listen and re-post that info! :-) You wouldn't believe how much misinformation is out there, so it often feels like "educating one person at a time." Feels great when the correct info then starts making its way around.

Let me add a bit more detail, for those who care:

In the old days, artists used to get plots only, which was cool. That way the storytelling was left to them, and the writers then added the dialogue later. It was more work for the artist, but in my opinion produced a more dynamic final product. Nowadays, most scripts include a very specific, page-by-page, panel-by-panel description. The artist CAN add or remove a panel, but it's tough,as you're about to see...

Let's say there's something a little vague in the script and the artist wants to clarify things a little, he or she might have to add a panel for clarity's sake. But if there's already 6 panels in the script, you risk having an overly busy page. Hm. What to do? Cluttered-but-clear page or dynamic-but-unclear page? Dale is a stickler for clarity, so he'll sacrifice his art looking "pretty" so that the readers can follow the storytelling without getting confused. He always says "I serve the story first." Unfortunaetly, that means he often isn't as "flashy" as other artists.

Conversely, sometimes you might find you can combine two panels when they're redundant or one is unnecessary. Sounds easy, but there's a hundred little things to consider. For example, dialogue in comics must always go from left to right. When writing and drawing for comics, you have to ALWAYS keep that in mind. Well, let's say you have a team like Alpha Flight, and in panel 1 you established their positions in a room or around a table. You have Guardian speak first. He has to be on the left. The more characters are in the scene, the trickier it gets to choreograph. So there may be panels you would like to combine so you get a nice, juicy, dynamic panel, but you CAN'T because of the order of the dialogue. So, no-can-do. Argh.

Sounds complicated? Yep. It really, truly is. I'm just the WIFE of an artist, not the artist. After over decades spent together, I know a lot of the rules, but I'm just scratching the surface still. These are just two very, very basic ("Comics 101") rules out of the hundreds of factors that every artist must consider when planning each page and panel. It's an incredibly complex job that, in my opinion, is greatly unknown and often misunderstood.

So there you have it. Hope you found this interesting and helpful! :-)

Wolfie

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

As Dale Eaglesham's better half recently pointed out to me, the artist has no control over the amount or size of panels per page, he has to go by what the writer tells him to do on the page.

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It also depends on the writter. There are some writters who give alot of freedom to the artist.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Aw, FlightPath, I could hug you for caring enough to listen and re-post that info! :-) You wouldn't believe how much misinformation is out there, so it often feels like "educating one person at a time." Feels great when the correct info then starts making its way around.

Let me add a bit more detail, for those who care:

In the old days, artists used to get plots only, which was cool. That way the storytelling was left to them, and the writers then added the dialogue later. It was more work for the artist, but in my opinion produced a more dynamic final product. Nowadays, most scripts include a very specific, page-by-page, panel-by-panel description. The artist CAN add or remove a panel, but it's tough,as you're about to see...

Let's say there's something a little vague in the script and the artist wants to clarify things a little, he or she might have to add a panel for clarity's sake. But if there's already 6 panels in the script, you risk having an overly busy page. Hm. What to do? Cluttered-but-clear page or dynamic-but-unclear page? Dale is a stickler for clarity, so he'll sacrifice his art looking "pretty" so that the readers can follow the storytelling without getting confused. He always says "I serve the story first." Unfortunaetly, that means he often isn't as "flashy" as other artists.

Conversely, sometimes you might find you can combine two panels when they're redundant or one is unnecessary. Sounds easy, but there's a hundred little things to consider. For example, dialogue in comics must always go from left to right. When writing and drawing for comics, you have to ALWAYS keep that in mind. Well, let's say you have a team like Alpha Flight, and in panel 1 you established their positions in a room or around a table. You have Guardian speak first. He has to be on the left. The more characters are in the scene, the trickier it gets to choreograph. So there may be panels you would like to combine so you get a nice, juicy, dynamic panel, but you CAN'T because of the order of the dialogue. So, no-can-do. Argh.

Sounds complicated? Yep. It really, truly is. I'm just the WIFE of an artist, not the artist. After over decades spent together, I know a lot of the rules, but I'm just scratching the surface still. These are just two very, very basic ("Comics 101") rules out of the hundreds of factors that every artist must consider when planning each page and panel. It's an incredibly complex job that, in my opinion, is greatly unknown and often misunderstood.

So there you have it. Hope you found this interesting and helpful! :-)

Wolfie

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Thanks for taking the time to explain all of this! I always love learning about the nuts and bolts of comic book creation.

So do all writers do this panel by panel description now? Or are there still writers today who just hand artists the plot? If they just hand them the plot, that means they need to go in after the layouts are done to script the story, right?

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Aw, FlightPath, I could hug you for caring enough to listen and re-post that info!

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You should really pass this on to my ex-wives, who say I never listen. At least, I think that is what they said. (I know their mouths were movin', but...)

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

You should really pass this on to my ex-wives, who say I never listen. At least, I think that is what they said. (I know their mouths were movin', but...)

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You only listen to when it comes to AF. I know, I have a similar problom.

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Originally Posted by bigbloo

So do all writers do this panel by panel description now? Or are there still writers today who just hand artists the plot? If they just hand them the plot, that means they need to go in after the layouts are done to script the story, right?

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You're welcome, Bloo!

I don't know of any who still work with plots. The only exception I've seen in the past 10 to 15 years is Stan Lee, who gave Dale a plot to work from for the What If #200 story they did together last year. Of course, that doesn't mean nobody does plots anymore, just that we haven't come across any in a very long time. I'd actually be curious to know. Maybe I'll ask Dale to ask the peeps on his Twitter...

And yes, it would mean that the writer would have to go in afterwards to add the dialogue.

Just out of curiosity, Wolfie, who drew your avatar? Is that your own artistic talents?

Dale drew it, of course! It's how he imagines I'd look if I were a superhero.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Dale drew it, of course! It's how he imagines I'd look if I were a superhero.

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lol. Awesome, thanks!

Does this mean "you" may be appearing in an issue of Alpha Flight at some point?

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Originally Posted by Alpha Rider

You only listen to when it comes to AF. I know, I have a similar problom.

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Why, yes, Rider. I would like you to make me an omelette.
Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I don't know of any who still work with plots. The only exception I've seen in the past 10 to 15 years is Stan Lee...

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Makes sense, since he was one of the people who invented that system.
(Right?)

- Le Messor
"Do you engage in motorcycling, hunting or any other pastimes of a hazardous nature?"
"I Watch the Lottery Show and listen to Terry Wogan."

What would you like in your omelette?

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Originally Posted by Alpha Rider

What would you like in your omelette?

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Sasquatch, Snowbird, and Puck. Hey, I'm not joking; I'm Deadly Ernest.

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

Sasquatch, Snowbird, and Puck. Hey, I'm not joking; I'm Deadly Ernest.

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You sure have a wide Radius of taste.

He's just Flex-ing his taste buds.

What can i say? I'm a real Wild Child!

You're Dream-queening.

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Originally Posted by Flightpath07

What can i say? I'm a real Wild Child!

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A Wild Child of the 'Caliber' of Kyle Gibney?

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Dale drew it, of course! It's how he imagines I'd look if I were a superhero.

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Wait, I thought you were? Isn't "Wolfie" your nom de masque? :)

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Originally Posted by DelBubs

A Wild Child of the 'Caliber' of Kyle Gibney?

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I was thinking in the lines of Blackie Lawless http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5LdwK5rKAU

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Originally Posted by alpha rider

i was thinking in the lines of blackie lawless http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5ldwk5rkau

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lol

This thread is all kinds of awesome in my absence. lol

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Originally Posted by EccentricSage

This thread is all kinds of awesome in my absence. lol

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"Absence makes the thread grow awesome-r."

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Originally Posted by EccentricSage

Ok, I'd like to test my ability to pencil a comic book.

What I would like is for someone here to pick an issue of Alpha Flight that you found the art disappointing in, and script it for me. (Extra points if Kyle is in it, of course. lol)

I always thought some of the art in certain runs was just downright unfortunate, so I figure it would be great to challenge myself and hopefully re-create an issue of Alpha Flight better than it was before.

Is anyone up for this?

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How about illustrating a few pages of my re-envisioned # 29? It should still be here, somewhere, probably under fan-fic section [RETCON 1: AF #29A]. You'd get to draw the Hulk...;)