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I have been noticing that most writers in Marvel have very little love for poor Tony Stark. After the SHRA most writers portray the guy as being fairly evil and uncaring. Now I was one of the few who supported the SHRA, and that was partially because of how much I have always liked the Ironman character. So I was wondering how many of you felt the same or think the guy is just a douche...
I never cared one way or the other for him, but recent events (Illuminati, Hulk, CW) have turned me against him for his actions.
I was ok with him prior to Civil War. After...I cant stand him.
I agree. Once again, too much power got into Tony Stark's hands, and it goes to his head. Pre-CW, he was typical rich-playboy-in-overglorified-tuna-can, now he thinks he's god. And after what he put Spider-Man through after May Parker was shot (refusing to directly help her, even tho it's his - Stark's - fault that she got shot because he convinced Peter to go public - which was the very reason Peter stayed incogneto in the first place), just because he went against Tony over the SHRA and is illegal for it, I have more respect for Stalin than him...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfense75
Yeah the list of atrocities commited by Stark is far to long to be over looked. The one book that really analyzed everything he did was Civil War Chronicles(I believe that was the title). Part of the story that was told in that book where all of the things Stark was doing behind the scenes to create his super hero army.
Too much power? I can see it that way, but he was already super rich and flew around the the most expensive peice of equipment known to man. The difference between Tony Stark and other marvel villians is that he does what he does because he feels that it is the only way. He feels he is doing it right. The 50-State Initative will probably be the only thing that keeps the Skrulls at bay...unless Alpha comes back and kicks the **** outta them. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyCanuck
Is he misguided? Hell yes! Though he is right up there with Reed Richards, and Henry Pym. Both of whom I hate more than Tony.
You mistake what I said, Manikin. I didn't mean "power" as in "raw force", I mean "power" as in the political variety. The fact he's powerful, authoritatively, as well as walking/flying around in one of the most sophisticated piece of machinery, as well as has more money than most nations, just makes him that much more of a menace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manikin
By that standard, what's the difference between Stark and Magneto - who only does what he does because he feels it's the "only way" to safe-guard the future of mutantkind - then? Yet Magneto is considered a villain, while, even today, after all the crap he did during CW, Stark is still classified as a "hero".Quote:
The difference between Tony Stark and other marvel villians is that he does what he does because he feels that it is the only way.
By forcing people to sacrifice their safety and the safety of their loved ones by going public (see: Spider-Man)? By denying people who threaten his plans their basic civil liberties (see: Hulk)? By forcing those who, otherwise, are advantageous enough to be "useful" to his acts to act as bounty hunters (see: Speedball/Penance and the Thunderbolts)? By imprisoning those who are against him in a known volatile location (see: Anti-SHRA prisoners in the Negative Zone)?Quote:
He feels he is doing it right.
He may feel he's "doing right", but does that make him right?
I don't know about that one: The X-Men has protected the Earth - single-handedly for the most part - against entire civilizations like the Shi'ar and Phalanx LONG before any Initiative had been set up. Heck, the Fantastic Four has kept Galactus at bay, all by their lonesome for over 40 years. Not to mention all that people like Spider-Man, the Avengers, all those solo costumed heroes have done over the years, for the most part without ever having to divulge their identities or register. Infinity Gauntlet: MU vs. Thanos. Infinity War: MU vs. Thanos, the Magus and his insane army of dopplegangers. Infinity Crusade: Half the MU vs. the Goddess and the OTHER half of the MU. All three confrontations involve massive amounts of people working together, and not once did they have to be "registered". Why? Because they trusted each other. Those they didn't trust, they investigated and judged them by their characters. Daredevil, Spider-Man, they worked in all three confrontations, and very few knew their real identities. heck, "Weapon Omega" served in the last two confrontations, and he's a convicted sociopath (we and Alpha knew that, at the time, he was reformed, but no one else did). At that point, no one really knew who was under what mask. At that point, many of the Avengers didn't know who each other were. For all people knew, it was Frank Castle or Victor von Doom or Jeffery Daumer under there. But they still trusted each other to work together for the better good of the world. Saying the up-coming Skrull invasion will "only" be repressed by the Initiative is wrong. Why? Because, again, you have half the MU vs. half the MU, and the Initiative half can't trust each other - nor their leader. Watch. I guarantee you, give it a year on the outside, and the "Initiative" will fall apart because - surprise, surprise - Tony Stark and his intellectual Inquisitional squad (Reed Richards, Henry Pym among them) and their Machiavellian method are going to lose the more humanistic members - the ones who are more empathetic towards their fellow person - as they realize how dishonest, untrustable and malevolent their "righteous leader" Tony Stark really is, and how much of a fool they have been for falling for his irresistible "charms" once again.Quote:
The 50-State Initative will probably be the only thing that keeps the Skrulls at bay
Heh,"them" meaning the Skrulls, or the Initiative? :PQuote:
...unless Alpha comes back and kicks the s**t outta them. :)
Yes, he is misguided. But then again: Name a villain who isn't? The real question shouldn't be "is Tony Stark still likeable", it's "is Tony Stark still a hero?"Quote:
Is he misguided? Hell yes!
It's a thin line, yes. But he can't be compared to Magneto as Tony has yet to personally kill anyone to achive his goals. At least to my knowledge. As for Spider-man, I blame alot of that on Peter and the fact that he flip-flopped after he had already revealed his identity. Not to mention that on many occations, Magneto was considered a hero, and a visionary when Geonosia was at it's Golden Age before the Sentinel blew it up.Quote:
By that standard, what's the difference between Stark and Magneto - who only does what he does because he feels it's the "only way" to safe-guard the future of mutantkind - then? Yet Magneto is considered a villain, while, even today, after all the crap he did during CW, Stark is still classified as a "hero".
I am not trying to say that what he is doing it right. However, Peter Parker did what he did by choice, following in Starks footsteps. Stark promised to keep his family safe, but Peter turned on him. The Hulks civil liberties went out the window after the 100th time he trashed a city. All he wanted was to be left alone, and his friends tried to give him that. It didn't work out well, but the Hulk proved what he was capable of doing when he took Manhatten hostage. It would have happened eventually, there would have been another Cieria, another Illumitati, or something else that would have set him off. The hulk is more of a menace that Tony Stark will ever be. The Negative Zone is the next logical step. I don't mind that too much, we have all seen how dependable normal prisons have been so far.Quote:
By forcing people to sacrifice their safety and the safety of their loved ones by going public (see: Spider-Man)? By denying people who threaten his plans their basic civil liberties (see: Hulk)? By forcing those who, otherwise, are advantageous enough to be "useful" to his acts to act as bounty hunters (see: Speedball/Penance and the Thunderbolts)? By imprisoning those who are against him in a known volatile location (see: Anti-SHRA prisoners in the Negative Zone)?
He may feel he's "doing right", but does that make him right?
Is he still a Hero? Hard to say, even for me. That's like asking if Wolverine is still a Hero. Or if Cyclops is still a Hero. Or Reed, or Pym, Ms. Marvel, or Deadpool, or Bishop... This list goes on an on. I would say that Tony Stark can now be described as a solid anti-hero. Not a villian.
The X-men, Avengers, Defenders, X-Factor, Fantastic Four, and just about every other team under the sun is going to be infested with Skrulls. There will be so much infighting and lack of trust, that they wont be able to function as teams. The X-men are already scattered and broken. That why I am expecting the 50-State Initiative, all the unsung heroes that no one gives two ****s about, being Earths last hope. Maybe a bunch will die, no one will care, and there might not be enough left to keep the Initative running. Who knows what will happen. I think the Initative has to keep going, it's the only way that the Marvel Universe will become a 'Dark Future' that just about every future vision describes.
I never gave Iron Man much thought prior to Civil War, but was one of the few that actually came to like him as a result of CW. I'm one of fewer still that came to dislike Cap, even though he was and remains one of my favourite superhero characters.
I'm not sure how Marvel has been portraying him since World War Hulk, but based on everything up to that point I thikn it's pretty clear that Stark is still a hero. And even more so cause with CW he stopped placing himself above humanity and placed himself within the loop of accountability that we are all subject to to various degrees.
In contrast, while I would never consider Cap to be a douche bag, he began to creep me out during CW. Whereas before his judgement was always spot on and would inspire, it all became kneejerk, over-emotional, seeing-nazis-around-every-corner type stuff, and made me think, "wow, this guy has LOST it, and is definitely NOT a person to be followed no matter where one stands in regards to the SRA".
Um... You know, right, the 5SI already has a pretty severe Skrull infestation, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Manikin
Like Legerd, I never cared about Stark one way or 'tother. Unlike Legerd, I still don't.
However, I stand by my old stance: I strongly agree with the Registration Act Tony Stark offered the MU. I hugely oppose the one he actually gave it.
-Le Messor
"Experiments should be reproducible. They should all fail in the same way."
I am aware that the 5SI does have Skrulls in them, Avengers: The Initative and others. However I don't believe that there is a team in Marvel that doesn't have a Skrull infestation. At least not a team that is able to turn the tide of the Skrulls. I just think Marvel wont be able to make people really believe that the Skrulls are a threat unless they kill off a few C rate heroes. Much like they did at the beginning of the CW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Messor
That's good. Because if I'd said much more, I'd be in real trouble...
C rate heroes? You know who'll really be the target, don't you?
*sigh*
- Le Messor
"Experience is the worst teacher - it always gives the test first and the instructions afterward."
The Gremlin during Armor WarsQuote:
Originally Posted by Manikin
I hated him as a hero hunter. Setting up that jail, capturing heroes. All of it just wasn't right. He is suppost to be a hero himself. Becoming leader of S.H.I.E.L.D. was amistake. I haven't read about Iron Man in months now. So I gave up on him.
I'm the other way around - Stark/IM was a fairly "meh" character as far as I was concerned, until Civil War. That made me sit up and take notice. What the Knaupf brothers then did in "Iron Man: Director of Shield" continued, for me, to shape Tony as an individual - not just an icon. And I'm really enjoying what Matt Fraction is doing on Invincible IM, especially now that Tony is supposedly "the world's most wanted".
For me, Civil War brought Marvel into the "real world". I had high hopes for Secret Invasion (which, unfortunately, fell very flat) - but between Iron Man, Thunderbolts and New Avengers, I'm getting my fix of gritty real world superheroics in comics.
So is Tony still insane, is he still in love with Mrs. Marvel? Is he still S.H.I.E.L.D.'s puppet?
I'll be honest, I've never really been a fan of Iron Man...just not my cup of tea really. I respected the fact that he was an Avenger, and a well respected character in other people's eyes. When Civil War started, I thought that his actions and his beliefs were a bit...off. I identified more with Captain America's stance on the whole situation, and completely was stunned by the ending of that story.
His actions since have been heinous. I agree with HappyCanuck in his argument: With everything he has done, believing that they are for the best, what makes him any different than any run-of-the-mill marvel villain.
He encourages heroes to reveal their identities publicly, no matter their social class, to put their loved ones in harm's way, and thinks of nothing of protecting those people when that information gets into the wrong hands (example: Spider-Man). As a matter of fact, in Spider-Man's case, he refused to help because even though his identity was revealed and May was hurt, he refused to help because Peter disagreed with him and the Initiative.
No...I don't like Iron Man. Do I agree with what they've done to him since the end of Secret Invasion? No. But everything he's done in the past few years has been horrible.
-Mystic
I like Iron Man as a concept, but the way they've been doing stories lately makes the character kin of sucky.
I hated his stance durin' and after CW. Now I kinda just feel sorry for him. He became the Marvel U's biggest patsy.
Yes I still like Iron Man. Even with the stupid way he was handled in CW. I haven't read it recently but I was a fan of his since the 70's.
In the last ten years Iron man went on my list of ruined buy bad producers, the comic book, I have to say the Movie was actually cool.
Who's this Iron Man you speak of?
:p
Never liked Iron Man much. The 1st movie was good. the 2nd was just bad, another guy in a suit with more robots. Big Deal.