In the first update, Puck has an entry.
In it, it stated that the version of Alpha from the past was only briefly in our time, so it looks like they cleaned up one of the Volume 3 messes.
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In the first update, Puck has an entry.
In it, it stated that the version of Alpha from the past was only briefly in our time, so it looks like they cleaned up one of the Volume 3 messes.
I'd like to know what happened to the temporal copies then... And does that mean that Temporal Snowbird vanished too?
Nope, Yukon Jack entry revealed the T.C Snowbird is married to him.Quote:
Originally Posted by SephirothsKiller
*sigh* that whole vol.3 ending made such a mess....
IMO that was Lobdell saying "you want classic AF so badly, then you can have 'em" *stomping off*
Ben
Hey...That's almost exactly what I said about the ending of vol 3 (way back when)...Except I had Scott giving us the finger as he left...sigh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben
Dana :(
Bah...I was perfectly happy to imagine them all having gone *pop* like soap bubbles when time "rebooted" itself. Wonder if anyone took the time to wonder how Snowbird would have managed to stay and the others didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
Who said she managed to stay? For all we know, when the others went back, so did YJ's wife, leaving him effectively single again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Renegade
Seriously, we only know that YJ married the time lost Snowbird, and that it wasn't the timelost Puck who got pounded by the Collective. How long the timelost Alphans stayed, how they left (and if they went home or elsewhere), whether that departure was voluntary (timelost Shaman taking them back using his documented ability to time travel) or not (time "pulling" them back to correct the timelines), whether they all went (likely, but if it was voluntary then perhaps Snowbird stayed, since she had married), etc. None of this is certain. The most likely scenario, if only because it's the least confusing, is that they all went back, including Snowbird, after an indeterminate amount of time, leaving YJ with one of the shortest marriages this side of Britney Spears, but frankly, we don't know for sure.
Loki I sent the handbook team that email we talked about, should I expect a timely reply? or wait and see?
We're in the middle of a couple of deadlines, so it might take a few days before we have time to go over them.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
No worries, I forgot to give some issue # of certain feats in question hopefully you guys know what I'm talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
How do we know this? Did it specify in his entry which Snowbird he married?Quote:
Seriously, we only know that YJ married the time lost Snowbird
and I quote: "After rescuing the original Alpha Flight, Yukon Jack relunctantly remained with the team and, having divorced his previous wives, eventually married Snowbird (Narya) following an adventure that left several Alpha Flight members of the past stranded in the present. The couple returned to Kemteron, where they reign to this day"Quote:
Originally Posted by MistressMerr
It was indeed the temporal copy
That doesn't really say for sure that is was temporal Snowbird. Just that they got married after an adventure that made temporal copies. Maybe I'm just being too picky with grammar. But you'd think that under "Known relatives" it would specify that it is isn't 616 Narya.
Well after the temporal copies were created, the real Alpha Flight was still in space.Quote:
Originally Posted by MistressMerr
Okay, that's a pretty good point. Makes more sense now I guess.
To avoid confusion I just hope they just make it the real Snowbird.
Ditto.
"Oh Great and Wonderous Lobdell,
From your throne on high,
Please be so kind as to explain why you made Alpha FUBAR,
We Thank you for the silly characters and super powered horse,
But the rest is just bollacks"
Thanking you in advance :roll:
I ditto your ditto.Quote:
Originally Posted by MistressMerr
I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and ask why. If a writer wants to use her now, he/she is going to have that history to contend with before freeing the character up for use. The fact that she married him made absolutely no sense to me. Why did she marry him - because they have the same eyes? Give me a break, Lobdell.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
I'm with Ahab on this one. I don't want it to have been the real snowbird. With all she has been through, seen and done, she wouldn't have married Yukon Jack IMO. I'm all for the one who married YJ to have vanished in a puff of temporal smoke. Hey, maybe fixing this should be a job for the exiles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahab
Ben
Hey I don't approve of the wedding either, but it happened and is canon. Waht would you want for possible future readers, a less confusing story or more so?
I would want a less confusing story, which is the point that I was trying to make (albeit perhaps poorly). If Snowbird was the real deal, then any new writer has to deal with Yukon Jack in some way to free her up for use. If she was the temporal copy, the writer wouldn't even have to recognize the situation.
Freeing her up is quite easy to do, any good or self-respecting writer would have no problems with that issue. If it was the temporal copy, then the writer has to explain the confusing origins and make it seem plausible and not campy to new readersQuote:
Originally Posted by Ahab
Yah, all that would be needed to extricate 'Birdy from her situation is the text: "Jack! I must go now! The ancient gods have a task for me!!" And that mess would be done with.
[quote="King Mungi
If it was the temporal copy, then the writer has to explain the confusing origins and make it seem plausible and not campy to new readers[/quote]
Or he could just ignore the whole fact that it happened since it wouldn't really have any impact on the real deal. The only people that would probably even notice that he did would be die-hard AF fans that refuse to believe that she was a temporal copy. :wink:
If they flat out ignored it, I wouldn't miss it at all. As I wouldn't miss much of what happened in vol.3. I didn't mind Jack, but meh!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahab
Oh suprized no one talked about this earlier, but the Puck entry was AWESOME. Very detailed and covered more things I thought it would. I believe you had a part in it Loki?
Just a few corrections: Puck admited he named himself after a hockey Puck, it was Puck II who named herself after the Shakespeare character. Would make sense if it was Eugene since he often reads it, but vol.3 stated it.
How can he have superhuman speed listed above and then on the stats say normal?
Also just enhanced durability? Puck has shown to be bulletproof, as well as walk through fire unharmed and fall heights larger than the CN tower and be fine. He was said to be invulnerable and nearly indestructable.
He's also been injured before in ways that suggest that he isn't indestructible though, so I guess it depends on what they decided to focus on.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
That's what you call PIS (plot induced stupidity) or CIS (character induced stupidity) or as Loki said months ago writers just forgot.Quote:
Originally Posted by SephirothsKiller
I wrote it. Thanks for the kind words.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
I'll get back to you on all these, as I am not at home and so don't have the issues at hand. It's been a few months since I wrote the entry, and before I either agree or debate the points (with one exception below), I feel I should actually double check the issues to make sure of my facts.Quote:
Just a few corrections: Puck admited he named himself after a hockey Puck, it was Puck II who named herself after the Shakespeare character. Would make sense if it was Eugene since he often reads it, but vol.3 stated it.
How can he have superhuman speed listed above and then on the stats say normal?
Also just enhanced durability? Puck has shown to be bulletproof, as well as walk through fire unharmed and fall heights larger than the CN tower and be fine. He was said to be invulnerable and nearly indestructable.
The one bit I can explain now is the speed. Since his transformation circa Alpha Flight #90ish, Puck is faster than normal humans - however, while we are talking heightened reflexes and a degree of superhuman speed, its not like he can challenge Speed Demon to a race. The Power Grids, bless 'em, are unable to cope with fine distinctions. Puck doesn't rate a 3 on the grid, because that suggests being able to move around 700 mph (and apart from people who would have said I was wrong if I'd listed him as a 3, there would also be the risk that a future writer might read that entry and the next thing you know, we'd have Puck zooming around like a demented rocket). Puck strictly rates a bit higher than a 2 speed, but since he is so low down below what 3 is rated as, that 2 was the closest I could get to his correct rating (we can't do 2.1 or 2.2 on the grid).
The Puck entry also appears to have clarified the position on the timeline of the X-Men Unlimited issue, where we worked it out to be; between volumes 1 & 2.
It was very good, well written, very diverse and fixed up some continuity issues as Phil just explained. I greatly enjoyed this entry, did Puck justice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
That makes perfect sense, the old Marvel Universe handbooks listed him at 111-115 miles per hour. However, I definetly see where you were coming from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Thanks for the clarification
Again, thanks. I like Puck, he's an interesting character, and piecing together a coherent history from him based on the various snippets of information he's dropped over the years wasn't work, it was fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
No problem. I should point out that the Master Edition, which is the Handbook you've mentioned, didn't strictly say he could move at 111-115 mph. What it said was that he was in the speed bracket whose top speed was that (and above the speed bracket whose top speed was 65mph). So again we have a range, though a tighter one than the current grids give us. From what we've seen in the comics, I wouldn't place him at the 115 mph end the scale.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
Anyway, now gone back and rechecked the issues of Alpha Flight to respond to your other comments. Proviso here, I haven't re-read all his guest appearances, as they are scattered all through my collection, so if you have a counter-example from there, feel free to bring it up. I freely admit there is always the chance I can miss something.
Actually, strictly speaking, it was the Plodex copy of him. Would that copy have a reason to lie over such a minor thing? No, I can't think of one. Could he get it wrong? Yes, in theory. Ever seen the original Star Trek "What are little girls made of?". Someone copies Kirk, but he has enough will power to place a clue, a response which is atypical of the real Kirk and will alert others to this being a fake.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
Earlier Handbooks confirmed what I think John Byrne explained in interviews but never got round to saying in the actual pages of the comics, which is that Puck chose his name after the character in Shakespeare's play. Normally a statement in the pages of the comic would overrule the Handbook (and the original creator's intentions), but it's coming from a potentially unreliable source. I'll admit, when I was writing Puck, I missed that, because I wasn't paying attention to what the ersatz Puck said (I had a couple hundred issues to go through for Puck, and by the end I wasn't paying as tight attention to those around him, because the profile was about Puck, not them).
So, we've got definitive statement in earlier Handbooks based on creator's intentions contradicted by definitive statement from an unreliable source. I'm not going to just dismiss the evidence which suggests I got it wrong, because that would be biased of me, ignoring the bits which don't support "my side" of the debate. But equally, if Alpha Flight vol.1 had confirmed the Shakespeare connection, no one would argue that vol.3 simply got it wrong, and Handbooks are also canonical sources (Gruenwald used them to add in backstory the comics provided by the writers that the regular titles hadn't had space to include, and in that respect they are the same as if the writer had introduced the info in a text story). Plus, it didn't come from the real Puck which does allow for a level of doubt. So what we have here is two conflicting canonical sources. In hindsight, if I had noticed the ersatz Puck's comment, I would simply have left out the comment about where Puck got his name, because rather than confirming the origin of his codename, Plodex Puck's statement has left introduced a level of doubt. We are no longer sure which version is accurate.
Okay, part of this is the type of power grid we now use, and part of it is that it seems Puck's power levels have faded since he intially got shrunk back into a dwarf.Quote:
Also just enhanced durability? Puck has shown to be bulletproof, as well as walk through fire unharmed and fall heights larger than the CN tower and be fine. He was said to be invulnerable and nearly indestructable.
On the former, the Master Edition grids had different levels, and they don't always equate. We've had people look at Punisher having a fighting skills level of 7 while Iron Fist has a level of 6, and concluding that we are claiming Punisher could take Iron Fist in hand-to-hand combat, missing the point that the fighting skills grid becomes non-linear at the top end (e.g. 6 is not always less than 7). 6 means expert in many types of combat, 7 means expert in all. Iron Fist (the current one, rather than his recently introduced predecessor) isn't skilled with guns, for example, so he can't be a 7; Punisher is a jack-of-all-trades, expert in pretty much everything, so he gets a 7 - but there are different levels of expertise, and if he entered a fair hand-to-hand, no dirty tactics or weapons, fight with Iron Fist, the Fist would hand him his head (of course, the Punisher wouldn't fight fair, or without weapons if he can help it). Its the difference between being a Black Belt and being a fifth dan Black Belt; both are experts, one's more of an expert than the other.
In the same way, the durability grid isn't as defined as it used to be. Someone with 3, enhanced durability can be much tougher and harder to hurt than Wolverine, who was 4 (regenerative) on the scale; its the healing that gives you the 4. "Enhanced" covers a potentially huge range, and covers anything up to the point where bullets and other penetrative attacks can't penetrate.
On the latter, power fading. Can you provide me examples of where he was bulletproof (where did bullets bounce off him), the fire and the fall? As I said, I could have missed those, but re-reading, I didn't spot any of them in Alpha Flight. Shortly after his becoming a dwarf again he is seen venturing near flames alongside Diamond Lil, and he does take blasts from an alien spaceship around #100, but we don't really know just how powerful those blasts are. We are told he is incredibly tough, but there's surprisingly little evidence to back it up. However, subsequent to this (e.g. as soon as writers other than the one who gave Puck the enhanced powers), we get little indication of Puck having such durability. In fact, during the second Alpha Flight run, he gets blasted unconscious time and again - and notably he gets knocked out by a punch from a non-superpowered Department H agent in Alpha Flight II #1. His durability seems to have lessened, perhaps dropping closer to human levels over time.
Is this something I like, that a writer seems to have forgotten the level he used to be at? Not really. But equally I can't ignore it, because there's regular evidence of this lower power level. It's exactly the same as the Union Jack entry I wrote for A-Z #12. Joey Chapman is empowered by the Green Knight with the Pendragon spirit, and used to be around the 90 ton range, but now, despite writers mentioning he still has the Pendragon power, we see that Master Man can shrug off Joey's punches but not those of Captain America. Hence, I can include what Joey's power level used to be, hoping another writer might use that, but have to conclude that he has powered down somewhat at the moment. Puck is still tougher than your average person by a fair way, but no longer as tough as he was depicted in the first ten or so issues after he became a dwarf again.
Yeah it was great, what other etries have you done for the handbooks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
He didn't have to many speed feats that I can think of, only one I can think of is easily dodging Savage Hulk (that was classic Puck) and speedblitzing a terrorist from 20-30 feet away before he could even pull the trigger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
I'm compiling the scans right now, and most of his durability feats did take place in Alpha Flight. I will post them later in the day as I'm heading to work shortly.
Well apparently the Plodex copies had all their powers, abilities, and memories downloaded into the computer from the original members. So technically he shouldn't have made a mistake, but you may be right. Personally I hope so as Eugene naming himself after the Shakespeare's Puck makes far more sense than Puck II doing it. Also haha nice Star Trek reference.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
Which handbooks? I don't recall which one it could have said it. It wasn't The Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe #1 (Vol.1) & Master Edition #1 (Vol.3). I also remember Bryne saying: "He's called Puck because of his tendency to do cartwheels and spin around rooms, and crash into things. He wears a black costume with a "P" on the chest." I believe you, I bet it is said somewhere I just havn't read most of the old handbook entries and interview for years. Meh! It's a moot point, and makes perfect sense though.
I think you got it right, and from Puck's experience and who he actually is; a scholar. It makes perfect sense he would name himself after Puck. Also vol.3 had many continuity errors, such as their explanation of Marrina's origins, as well as the Plodex ship, which was the main focus point in the series was well... destroyed in AF #3-4 [Vol.1] (forget which issue)
===
Durability comment I will hopefully get to shortly.
Loki,
I loved the Puck entry and was also very excited to see an entry for Huntarr. I hope there are more Microns/Micronauts (Commander Arcturus Rann, Marionette, Devil and maybe Fireflyte) on the way.
Dana :D
More than some, less than others, overall quite a few. In that issue, Impossible Man, Nightshade, Diamondback, Hammer, Human Robot, Hunter in Darkness, Mark Hazzard, Nextwave, Speedfreek, and of course Puck.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
Okay, I'm going to have to eat some crow here. After writing this, I subsequently double checked the earlier Handbooks, and I couldn't find mention of the Shakespeare link. Moreover, while I still am sure I recall something along that line being mentioned in an interview (Marvel Age #1?), another Handbook writer has pointed out that John Byrne's FAQ says otherwise. So, I'll admit I'm at a loss as to where I got it from now. Keep in mind I wrote that entry around four or five months ago, and have written dozens since, so recalling all the details isn't easy. Normally I'm extremely careful only to add in things from the issues themselves, and while I vaguely recall that interview mentioned above, I wouldn't have included information from that in an entry without further corroboration "on camera". Only two options I can see - (1) it was said in an issue, but I foolishly failed to include in my notes I made while reading Puck's appearances as to which one, and now I'm going to have to go back through them all to check; or (2) I suffered some sort of brain infarction while writing, mis-read the ersatz Puck vs. femPuck fight, and put in something completely wrong. Annoying, but if I've made a mistake, I'll admit it. I'll just have to re-read every appearance again, so don't expect a final judgement anytime soon (if I didn't get it wrong, I could be back quickly with the place it was said; if I did get it wrong, then it'll definitely take a while to confirm it by going back through everything).Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
It would, and what I said would still stand, if I hadn't been wrong about what the earlier Handbooks said. That's why for writing the profiles, we never rely on memory, because it can cheat. My memory said that the comment in the profile came from a Handbook, but that's not the case. However I didn't rely on memory while writing the profile, so if I have added in that Shakespeare reference without finding it first in an issue, I'm at a loss as to why I would have done so.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Mungi
Plans can change (sometimes we can drop someone we planned to cover because we need to instead cover a new character just introduced, or an old character we hadn't planned on because they've just reappeared), but as things stand, yes, you'll see some more Microns coverage this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrkoenig67
Wow, I'm impressed that's a lot of issues you have to read to complete those biosQuote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Here's the Marvel Age interview: http://www.geocities.com/rplass/afcollector/ma2.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by Loki
haha yeah I understand, trying to recall a small point after just writing 10 enteries in one issue is tough. Truthfully I wouldn't stress it, like I said it's a moot point and makes far more sense than Puck II getting her name from it. I definetly appreicate the concern, but I'm actually quite glad about the possible switch. I'm sure you did get it from somewhere, but I'm drawing a blank
Well if you didn't read that part about vol.3 with the interactions between Plodex Puck and Puck II you must have picked it up somewhere. I'm not sure where, but all honesty it makes far more sense. Puck often quotes Shakespeare in battle, and greatly enjoys his work. Here's another instance showing Puck's a scholarQuote:
Originally Posted by Loki
1. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...erine35_11.jpg
2. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...erine35_12.jpg
Well technically the writer for Alpha Flight vol.2 even admited he was going to ignore the upgrade and return Puck just to a regular atheletic dwarf and ignored the upgrade all together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
In the same way, the durability grid isn't as defined as it used to be. Someone with 3, enhanced durability can be much tougher and harder to hurt than Wolverine, who was 4 (regenerative) on the scale; its the healing that gives you the 4. "Enhanced" covers a potentially huge range, and covers anything up to the point where bullets and other penetrative attacks can't penetrate.[/quote]Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
I understand how the fighting skills could generate abit of controvesy, but durability isn't a broad topic. Especially how the old handbook laid out the different sections. If the new handbook conducted a proper definition of enhanced that would be far more benefical and clear up possible confusions
I don't agree with the fading as that was never addressed just some writers tend to ignore it as I explain in the last paragraph. Below is the various durability feats and statements. Well that's because the writer wanted to ignore the Razer and rubber density, which he said in an interview. He just wanted to go back to Puck as a dwarf nothing more but never explained why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
--------------------------------------------
Durability
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The Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe - Master Edition #1: Puck (Upgraded)
After reading this even I have really underated the little guy. After the experiments by The Master he really turned into a formiable opponent even matching stats with Spider-Man. If you want to view them, [Click here!]. I'm even tempted to make a Puck vs. Spider-Man thread after this. In case your wondering what the areas mean here is the list [Click Here!]
1. http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...n-01-PuckA.jpg
2. http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...n-01-PuckB.jpg
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Avengers #322 (Vol.1): Puck (Upgraded)
Puck mentions his new body is “nearly indestructible”
1. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...13_rougher.jpg
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Avengers #324 (Vol.1): Puck (Upgraded)
Puck makes mention of his “invulnerable” body and blocks from the Combine
1. http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...11_rougher.jpg
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Alpha Flight #100 (Vol.1): Puck (Upgraded)
Only half of the story, the other is the Avengers and Alpha Flight do battle against Galactus. Half of the heroes still have to deal with the Consortium invasion of Toronto. Puck shows off his new found durability
1. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...ight100-03.jpg
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Alpha Flight #100 (Vol.1): Puck (Upgraded)
Puck can survive a several story drop, in reality the ship was over 1000 feet in the air
1. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ama/AFS-22.jpg
2. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...ight100-30.jpg
3. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...ight100-34.jpg
4. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...ight100-37.jpg
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Alpha Flight #96 (Vol.1): Puck (Upgrade)
Thanks to his upgrade, Puck's immune to fire as he was in a blaze on an oil tanker
1. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...light96-13.jpg
Well Cap tends to make everyone job to him, just recently he hurt Onslaught...yesh!. Also it's a common occurance of Alpha Flight's powers being completly ignored and they tend to "job". Such as Maverick beating Vindicator II and Puck with ease, and Juggernaut smacking around Guardian and Vindicator. Not once did they use their blasts and writer forgot about their shields. Then there is Northstar beating Guardian, and writer forgot Mac has a shield and the fact Mac doesn't wear the suit. He is the suit being a cyborg, so removing the clothing as Northstar did would not depower him. I can name off dozen more instances were other writers "dumb" down Alpha Flight to make their characters look good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki