God Loves, Man Kills...

[cmdrkoenig67]

I think I just committed heresy...

http://newsarama.com/common/forums/v...292764#p292764

It's my opinion, but what I read of the posted synopsis, just lead me to that opinion....I have to call it like I see it. It sounds like a badly cliched story.

Dana

[MistressMerr]

You definitely can't judge it without actually reading it. A lot of the thematic stuff became cliche BECAUSE God Loves, Man Kills did it so well. It IS a little heavy-handed at times, but still one of the best X-Men stories ever told, and one that makes about 90% of the others completely redundant.

[Le Messor]

I don't love the comic. I guess I think if the message is 'be tolerant', it should be a little less intolerant itself. I'm Christian, and do not like, for some reason, being completely villified.

Oh, and people love to cite Nightcrawler as one of two good Christian characters in comics. You could read every single panel in GLMK and not know it. It's never mentioned, not once.

So, yeah, Dana - I find it clichéd.
People keep suggesting you read it to judge for yourself; PM me and we can arrange that.

- Mik
"Heavier than air flying machines are impossible."
~ Lord Kelvin, 1900

[Flightpath07]

"I don't love the comic. I guess I think if the message is 'be tolerant', it should be a little less intolerant itself. I'm Christian, and do not like, for some reason, being completely villified."

Thanks for that, I 100% agree.

Oh, and people love to cite Nightcrawler as one of two good Christian characters in comics.

A) who are these people, exactly? cuz, i disagree. and, B) who is the other one supposed to be? Firebird from the WCA days? Again, if so, I say "nay".

These are the reasons that I wanna write my own superhero literature. Cuz it'll be what i like; with the morals that i wanna be portrayed, portrayed (or not, not).

[Le Messor]

Oh, and people love to cite Nightcrawler as one of two good Christian characters in comics.

A) who are these people, exactly? cuz, i disagree. and, B) who is the other one supposed to be? Firebird from the WCA days? Again, if so, I say "nay".
These are the reasons that I wanna write my own superhero literature. Cuz it'll be what i like; with the morals that i wanna be portrayed, portrayed (or not, not).

Nightcrawler's about as Christian as you can get in comics without being a villain.

A) It's come up a couple of times, when I've mentioned* that I don't like the way Christians are portrayed in comics. One of them was the editor in chief of Marvel at the time, at a convention.

B) While I have seen Firebird be the cause of a rare sensitive portrayal, the other one is Daredevil.
No, really.

I agree with the 'own literature' part (I don't limit to superhero).

*mentioned: a word that here means 'whinged'

- Le Messor
"He would be out of his depth in a parking lot puddle."

[MistressMerr]

Nightcrawler's about as Christian as you can get in comics without being a villain.

A) It's come up a couple of times, when I've mentioned* that I don't like the way Christians are portrayed in comics. One of them was the editor in chief of Marvel at the time, at a convention.

B) While I have seen Firebird be the cause of a rare sensitive portrayal, the other one is Daredevil.
No, really.

I agree with the 'own literature' part (I don't limit to superhero).

*mentioned: a word that here means 'whinged'

- Le Messor
"He would be out of his depth in a parking lot puddle."

I'd say most characters in comics are Christian, as a sort of default. It's just not constantly flaunted.

Nightcrawler's overt Catholicism is actually a more recent thing, and it bugs the heck out of me for that reason. You read things like this or his early Excalibur days, and it's like he's a complete different character from the spiritual "I'm a priest now, randomly!" guy that hung around for the last decade or so. Sometimes a decent job is made of incorporating the two and portraying the way it WAS always there, just not as overtly (the recent issue of Wolverine: Weapon X comes to mind), but usually it's just so awkward. Complaining that Nightcrawler's not Christian enough in GLMK is like complaining that Beast wasn't blue enough in X-Men #1.

Lol, Daredevil. I love the guy, but he is seriously, like, stereotypical Catholic guilt personified. XD

[Le Messor]

I shouldn't have spoken out. This sort of thing can lead to flamewars, and I do not want that on Alpha Waves.



- Mik

"Atmospheric nuclear tests do not seriously endanger either present or future generations."
~ Dr. Edward Teller, 1958

[Legerd]

I shouldn't have spoken out. This sort of thing can lead to flamewars, and I do not want that on Alpha Waves.

You shouldn't be worried about saying your piece LM, we are, for the most part, all mature enough to keep any disagreements friendly.

As for the depiction of Christians, I think when you see ones like the purifiers and Stryker, it's an attempt to show the real life, ultra hardcore Christian groups. The kind that go around with the "God hates fags" signs promoting hate for various sections of society. I don't think any good comic writer would depict all Christians in that way.

I think most people forget that (superhero) comic books are filled with metaphors, some subtle most not. If a character or group is made to look stereotyped, it's probably because the writer is trying to fit a lot of information into a small space to get his/her point across to a vast readership, many of which won't grasp subtler undertones and will therefore miss the message.

[Le Messor]

In that case...

As for the depiction of Christians, I think when you see ones like the purifiers and Stryker, it's an attempt to show the real life, ultra hardcore Christian groups. The kind that go around with the "God hates fags" signs promoting hate for various sections of society. I don't think any good comic writer would depict all Christians in that way.

It's always 'just one kind'. Always.

That's why Nightcrawler not mentioning his faith in the entire issue is such an issue for me. (I believe he was established as a Christian by the time GLMK came out.) Sometime, I'd like to see an attempt to show the real life, ultra hardcore Christian groups. The kind that work for social justice, help the homeless, care about others, would never go around with "God hates fags" signs, and don't promote hate.
Or, at the very least, those of us who are strong in our convictions - believe in one God and are subservient to him, believe in morality - but don't hate or try to kill everyone who believes / acts differently. The kind I actually see, know, and interact with a lot; not the kind who are distant fringe groups.
I just don't - or at least, very very very rarely. When the only portrayals I see are negative, then saying 'we're just attacking one kind of Christianity - the evil kind' stops working.
If you have Marvel's poster-boy for 'We're tolerant. Really.' right there, and he never says so much as 'I'm Christian, and I don't think that way,' it negates the 'We're tolerant. Really.' part.

Also, I'm afraid that saying 'Christians are the default' (btw, the editor-in-chief I mentioned, who I'm beginning to think wasn't the editor-in-chief, said pretty much the same thing) is kind of like saying "nowhere in X-Men #1 did anyone say Beast isn't blue, so all those issues that portray blue people as the worst evil of the world are completely negated.

- Le Messor
"Heavy smokers. Don't throw away those filters from the end of your Cigarettes. Save them up and within a few years you'll have enough to insulate your roof."

[Flightpath07]

Have to agree with you, Mik.

Most people do not see that side of Christianity, because they choose not to - it is easier to call those you do not agee with "intolerant" than to try to have some understanding for them. And although i WILL agree that some Christians (and/or those who call themselves one, a whole 'nother topic entirely) harbour intolerance and hatred (and is there any group or sub-group of society where that is not not true?), to paint all of one grouping of society with the same brush, is very irresponsible and is, at its heart, "ironically" very intolerant of the painter.

'Kay, I'm done now. Next topic?

[MistressMerr]

Also, I'm afraid that saying 'Christians are the default' (btw, the editor-in-chief I mentioned, who I'm beginning to think wasn't the editor-in-chief, said pretty much the same thing) is kind of like saying "nowhere in X-Men #1 did anyone say Beast isn't blue, so all those issues that portray blue people as the worst evil of the world are completely negated.

I don't see how. Whenever colour casually comes up, characters don't casually mention that they're blue a large majority of the time the way they do with religion and Christianity. Sticking to the X-Men (since that's just what I know best), off the top of my head, Cyclops, Havok, Karma, Gambit, Banshee, Siryn, Dazzler are all established Christians, and that's just off the top of my head (and mostly Catholics, since that's what I am and so I guess they stick in my memory more). Comics are filled with positive Christian portrayals, it's the characters who aren't Christian who tend to be the exceptions.

As for the depiction of Christians, I think when you see ones like the purifiers and Stryker, it's an attempt to show the real life, ultra hardcore Christian groups. The kind that go around with the "God hates fags" signs promoting hate for various sections of society. I don't think any good comic writer would depict all Christians in that way.

I think most people forget that (superhero) comic books are filled with metaphors, some subtle most not. If a character or group is made to look stereotyped, it's probably because the writer is trying to fit a lot of information into a small space to get his/her point across to a vast readership, many of which won't grasp subtler undertones and will therefore miss the message.

See, I agree entirely with the first half of this, but the second part doesn't sit right, mostly just because there are skeezballs like Stryker out there. The story wasn't about painting all Christians as evil, intolerant scum, just these ones, whether Nightcrawler mentions his own faith or not.

As for Kurt at the time, if his Catholicism was established (I think it was at least in passing, but don't quote me on that), it definitely wasn't played as a huge part of his character yet and wouldn't have had much meaning either way.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I can't believe this has turned into a "religious" conversation...

I am in no way saying it's all Christians who are like this...But let's face it, "Christian" churches (whether it be Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Mormon, etc...) have made (and are still making) a terrible name for themselves (The Crusades, Witch Trials of Europe and the States, the "ex-gay converters", Fred Phelp's Westboro Baptists, Prop 8, etc, etc...). "Christian" churches are the cause of millions of deaths since ancient times (Crusades/Witch Trials) all the way to now (gay teens committing suicide, because they are taught to hate themselves by alleged "loving Christian" families). There is a Florida Church group right now who are planning to burn a Qur'an as a protest on 9/11...An action which may put millions of people (both soldiers and civilians) in more danger than ever...Possibly even sparking a religious World War (we don't know what will happen, but I doubt it will be good).

It may be (and may have been in the past) a minority of so-called "Christians" who are doing/saying horrible things to their fellow humans...Yet they are the ones making a bigger mark in the world with their words and actions (making all Christians appear to be villains), not the actual Christ-like Christians (who sit silently by while these others make them look bad)...And that's a shame.

Writers base these evil "Christian" characters on all of these small hate-filled groups/extremists who claim to be believers in Christ...It should be no reflection on those who are indeed, Christ-like.

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

It's really unfortunate that Claremont didn't use the book to show (from Kurt's perspective) that all Christians aren't hate-mongers...The story fails in that respect. If Kurt/Nightcrawler was shown to be a strong Catholic after this book, It's even more unfortunate that CC never touched on it later (explaining why Kurt stood silent during the events).

Dana

[cmdrkoenig67]

You definitely can't judge it without actually reading it. A lot of the thematic stuff became cliche BECAUSE God Loves, Man Kills did it so well. It IS a little heavy-handed at times, but still one of the best X-Men stories ever told, and one that makes about 90% of the others completely redundant.

I really don't see how five fake-out deaths in one story would qualify as doing anything well. Is the story synopsis inaccurate? Did the writer of the synopsis mislead me or did the story's events happen as he says they did? Having not read it I can't make a complete assessment, yet this synopsis paints the story as being quite bad....At the moment, it's all I have to go on.

Dana

[Flightpath07]

Writers base these evil "Christian" characters on all of these small hate-filled groups/extremists who claim to be believers in Christ...It should be no reflection on those who are indeed, Christ-like.

Agreed. 100%.

It's really unfortunate that Claremont didn't use the book to show (from Kurt's perspective) that all Christians aren't hate-mongers...The story fails in that respect.

Not having read the issue, i cannot really (fairly) comment on it. But if it only showed one side of religious bigotry, without someone of the same religion, (and a major character) showing the other side (which does actually exist - churches, and more imoprtantly the loving people who fill them, actually do a lot of good in the world) , then, yes, it sounds like it WAS an epic failure. Not only that, but I would say it borders on bigotry itself - it is causing people to possibly, through one character's actions and the omission of actions (or words, thoughts) by another character, to reach a state of judgement about Christianity as a whole. That's...irresponsible writing. And quite offensive, depending on my mood at the time.

That being said...meh, it's a comic. People will believe what they choose to believe - that is, after all, the whole basis of 'belief'; free choice of thought.