Chaos War #5 - Spoilers within

[Flightpath07]

There are some things Marvel has to do before Alpha Flight can be given a new ongoing series.
1. They have to include them in guest spots and big events so fans can get to know them, and it goes without saying they have to be seen in a positive light.
2. A miniseries has to be put out to expand on the guest spots and gauge fan reaction.
3. The miniseries needs a creative team that will both bring in readers by their reputations, and produce quality books story and art wise.
4. This is the big one! Marvel has to promote the characters, a lot! It's one thing the company hasn't done since the 80's. For some reason they will give an interview or two, and then they expect word of mouth to carry an AF book. Yet every Avengers, Thor, Cap, FF, X-men, Wolverine book gets front page treatment every month. These titles aren't going to suffer if Marvel gives an AF book some room on the soapbox, but they just haven't done it. If readers are expected to vote with their wallets then they have to know there's something to vote for, and why they should vote for it.

Agree, completely.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I'm as in front of the curtain as you guys.
I have no clue what's going on I'm afraid.
Anything I know comes through news sites/social networking etc....

It sounded like you were more plugged in to what was happening behind the scenes and the way decisions are made concerning what gets published and how.

I get your passion and feel the same, I really do, but we haven't suffered.

You speak for everyone? AF has more crap than good comics. Please tell me if this is incorrect.

It's also shown it can publish a bad one.
The oneshot hasn't erased Vol.3 #12 and magically fixed the opinion of everyone in the world.

Phil, I never said that the one-shot erased all the dreck from the past, nor did I believe that it magically fixed everyone's opinion. CW:AF is worthy of praise because it is ALPHA FLIGHT. It isn't a bunch of mind-wiped characters thrown together and called 'Alpha Flight'. It isn't Force Works pretending to be Alpha Flight. It (finally) is the real deal.

Let's not forget that it wasn't AF's story.
It wasn't a war to specifically bring them back.
Their return was a nice byproduct that they really didn't have to do.
It was Herc's story and they told it.

I have no real comment to make on that. As a Hercules story, I am satisfied.


Has it? Let's not forget that as much as I loved the oneshot it only sold 17,164.

The one-shot was released in the fourth week of the month, right behind a major holiday. That 17,000 people took the time to travel to their local comics shop, picked out CWAF from all the choices they had, paid their hard-earned money for it...well, that may not mean crap to anybody else, but it means something to me.

Ultimately it comes down to readers voting with their wallets. Again and again.

Buying a lot of 'Omega Flight' didn't seem to be the way to keep that series going.

Marvel is a business, let's not forget that. They can't just print money to please a very small, yet loveable , minority of the readership.

I doubt few here could ever forget that MARVEL is a business. MARVEL still can publish a good story with a beginning, middle, and end....from time to time.

[Ahab]

but maybe there IS something brewing and Marvel just isn't ready to market it yet.
I'm just saying...

[Le Messor]

I doubt few here could ever forget that MARVEL is a business. MARVEL still can publish a good story with a beginning, middle, and end....from time to time.

That's true - Marvel is a business... but I've gotta be honest. I'm kinda tired of hearing that every time they make a decision that alienates a bunch of fans.
I can complain, 'kay?
And I choose to show as much care for their point of view as they've demonstrated for mine. None.

You know how a business gets popular? By creating a good product that people like. I like best the comics of the 70s and 80s; everything I've heard tells me that comics were selling far better then than they are now. Marvel would love to tell you that that's just because computer games are better now - but given the number of comics fans I hear from who've sworn off Marvel or DC or all comics because they're so much worse now, I have to doubt that. It sounds like they're refusing to give us the product we want and then blaming other people for their failures.
They've been coasting on old loyalties, and that won't last.

Let's take an example from the field of business, then. Coca Cola made a huge name for themselves selling one formula. Then, one day, they changed it, slapped the old label on it, then got shocked when the new thing didn't sell.
Does anybody today remember New Coke as a brilliant business decision that advanced the company? I don't think so.

Marvel does the same thing with Alpha Flight; they show us something set in Canada, with one or two Alphans, and slap at least one of those labels ('Alpha' or 'Flight') on it, then get shocked when it doesn't sell. Then tell us nobody wants Alpha Flight.
How would they know? Marvel has published exactly one issue of Alpha Flight in nearly 25 years, and they didn't exactly go out of their way to publicise it. So how can they judge Alpha Flight's future based on New Alpha?
I want the Classic Alpha formula. See how that sells, then we'll talk.

What I want them to do, as a business, is take a smale variety of different comics (and Coke don't just make cola) and spend their resources and work on making those as well as they can. Instead, they're spreading their resources over a wide range of near-identical comics and doing it badly.

'Marvel is a business' is usually followed by 'vote with your wallets'. Unfortunately, that's a binary option: to buy or not to buy. There are a wide range of reasons why I will / will not buy a particular comic. Choosing not to buy one won't give them the reason why; it'll just tell them that title doesn't sell. Or that it can't sell.
And there might be a lot of good reasons to keep buying a comic, even if there's a lot wrong with it.

I was actually happy with the CW#5 AF appearance. Any other time the team has been in a crossover event it was only as cannon fodder, and if they had actual lines is was just to play Devil's Advocate to the "real" stars of the event (Cap America, Mr. Fantastic, Cyclops, etc.). This book not only had Sas showing he was a brain, it depicted Guardian as a leader. Hell, Guardian had more panel time than the Hulks, Thor, Spiderman, Luke Cage, Iron Man and Captain America. He also had more lines than all of them. When has that ever happened?

Were they shown as the main characters? No, but they weren't the mains, Herc and Cho were. Were they shown as heroes? Definitely. Were they shown to be competent? Yes. For me, brief as it was, this has been the most positive AF appearance in a crossover ever! This is how they need to be written when they show up in the inevitable guest spots, and in the miniseries which I'm calling right now. Marvel needs to get AF out there a bit before there is any chance of a book being viable, so I don't expect anything this year beyond a bunch of guest spots. 2012 will be AF's year.

I hope you're right, Legerd, I really do. Because just one of those things wiped out my entire crew in just under...
Uh, sorry, flashed back there...

- Le Messor
"You can't guide somebody into adulthood. Everyone's experience is different."
- Ship's Councellor Deanna Troi.
"You're fired."
- Donald Trump.

[Phil]

You speak for everyone? AF has more crap than good comics. Please tell me if this is incorrect.

Let's not get off on the wrong foot here, I was never claiming to speak for everyone, and you're more than welcome to your opinion, as is everyone.
All I meant was, suffering is people starving to death in third world countries, being physically tortured, having a fatal disease, having a loved one being killed in a natural disaster etc etc... Having fictional characters that we don't own not being written as we'd like isn't suffering IMO.

Phil, I never said that the one-shot erased all the dreck from the past, nor did I believe that it magically fixed everyone's opinion. Sometimes it helps to wait awhile before posting. I had to learn that early on, here, myself.

Again, nowhere did I say that you said that. My post wasn't an attack on you, just my personal differing opinions.
I was generalising against the Alpha-dislike on the internet since the cancelation of Vol.1

CW:AF is worthy of praise because it is ALPHA FLIGHT. It isn't a bunch of mind-wiped characters thrown together and called 'Alpha Flight'. It isn't Force Works pretending to be Alpha Flight. It (finally) is the real deal.

Exactly, so that's positive and I agree.
CW #5 was never advertised as AF's great return to the MU.
There was no blurb or splash on the cover stating 'Guest Starring Alpha Flight!"

The one-shot was released in the third week of the month, right behind a major holiday. That 17,000 people took the time to travel to their local comics shop, picked out CWAF from all the choices they had, paid their hard-earned money for it...well, that may not mean crap to anybody else, but it means something to me.

It doesn't though.

It means that speciality comic stores ordered 17,000 copies through Diamond.
It doesn't mean that they all sold on that holiday week.
With mail order it doesn't mean that fans travelled to stores.
And it doesn't show how many were still sat on shelves on stores.

But I agree, 17,000 to me is a lot. However in a business sense it's not.

MARVEL still can publish a good story with a beginning, middle, and end....from time to time.

Again, I agree.
And CW was to some a good story, with exactly that.
Just because AF weren't treated as stars of the Mu doesn't mean that some people didn't enjoy the story.

[Le Messor]

Let's not get off on the wrong foot here, I was never claiming to speak for everyone, and you're more than welcome to your opinion, as is everyone.
All I meant was, suffering is people starving to death in third world countries, being physically tortured, having a fatal disease, having a loved one being killed in a natural disaster etc etc... Having fictional characters that we don't own not being written as we'd like isn't suffering IMO.

Jus' puttin' it in perspective, in other words.

Exactly, so that's positive and I agree.
CW #5 was never advertised as AF's great return to the MU.

The one-shot kinda was. And it was AF's return! And, yes we can all agree... it actually was Alpha Flight for once! Yay!

There was no blurb or splash on the cover stating 'Guest Starring Alpha Flight!"

There was on my copy.
It's in crayon.

Okay, I put it there myself.

(I'm making this up.)

It means that speciality comic stores ordered 17,000 copies through Diamond.

Understood.

Just because AF weren't treated as stars of the Mu doesn't mean that some people didn't enjoy the story.

How dare they!?

Personally, with or without AF, I found it kind of bland. But your mileage may vary. (Yes, Phil, I know you're not saying here that you liked it or didn't.)

- LM
"I got his tie what did you get...the birth mark? That's great!"
~ Chico Marx in Animal Crackers

[Phil]

If that's for me to answer -

No, a fan didn't.
They did join the fight though.
It may not have been the grand rebirth appearance some people were hoping for but they were there and they were fighting.

And before my quotes get taken out of context, I actually said;

There was no blurb or splash on the cover stating 'Guest Starring Alpha Flight!"

Let's agree to disagree here? You're more than welcome to you differing opinion.

I'm not trying to say I'm right, merely that I enjoyed the oneshot and the appearance in #5 and that nowhere did Marvel state that #5 would be Alpha Flight's grand return and spotlight of the MU (and no, I haven't or am not stated/stating that anyone said or implied it would be).

And with that, I shall reply on this thread no more.

[Legerd]

I was actually happy with the CW#5 AF appearance. Any other time the team has been in a crossover event it was only as cannon fodder, and if they had actual lines is was just to play Devil's Advocate to the "real" stars of the event (Cap America, Mr. Fantastic, Cyclops, etc.). This book not only had Sas showing he was a brain, it depicted Guardian as a leader. Hell, Guardian had more panel time than the Hulks, Thor, Spiderman, Luke Cage, Iron Man and Captain America. He also had more lines than all of them. When has that ever happened?

Were they shown as the main characters? No, but they weren't the mains, Herc and Cho were. Were they shown as heroes? Definitely. Were they shown to be competent? Yes. For me, brief as it was, this has been the most positive AF appearance in a crossover ever! This is how they need to be written when they show up in the inevitable guest spots, and in the miniseries which I'm calling right now. Marvel needs to get AF out there a bit before there is any chance of a book being viable, so I don't expect anything this year beyond a bunch of guest spots. 2012 will be AF's year.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

How many times has MARVEL gone bankrupt?
How many times has DC?
The disdain for the buying public is one of the reasons why comic books don't sell well. People have outlined pretty sensible ways to enhance AF's profile in this very thread, and an earlier MARVEL probably would take heed. As a consumer and a fan, when comic characters are intentionally misused and the parent company expects their readership to accept it, like it, (praise it)...what else do you call it?

There seem to be a few others who don't think that CW5----whether it's Hercules' story or not---did all it could've done. It didn't have to be an Alpha Flight story, but it wouldn't have been a bad idea to make the members of Alpha Flight so they were more recognizable.

[Phil]

I'm glad we all have different opinions, cos let's face it, it'd be boring if we didn't.

Generation X #19 - Saquatch essentially implies Alpha Flight were a joke
New Avengers #16 - Alpha Flight killed OFF PANEL
Uncanny X-Men #508 - Northstar essentially implies Alpha Flight were a joke
Chaos War #5 - Sasquatch & Mac shown as intelligent

On that pure & simple reasoning - Phil's opinion = Chaos War #5 = a good appearance.

Maybe I'm looking at it too simply, but that's just me. I don't expect anything more.

[Le Messor]

In today's music industry, the Rolling Stones would have been dropped by their label and never had a successful career...

its so funny thatall we were asking for at one point is a story, wether it be a one shot, min-series or even a appearance in a book to put alpha flight back together, erase some of the continuity nightmares and re-establish the team back in the marvel universe. i think that one shot did all that. now we want more. we are truly a greedy bunch

I can't get no satisfaction.

Generation X #19 - Saquatch essentially implies Alpha Flight were a joke
New Avengers #16 - Alpha Flight killed OFF PANEL
Uncanny X-Men #508 - Northstar essentially implies Alpha Flight were a joke
Chaos War #5 - Sasquatch & Mac shown as intelligent
On that pure & simple reasoning - Phil's opinion = Chaos War #5 = a good appearance.

I kinda agree with Phil on this one. 'kinda' because I also take the point that the characters could have been better-identified to a non-Alpha-reading public.

How many times has MARVEL gone bankrupt?
How many times has DC?
The disdain for the buying public is one of the reasons why comic books don't sell well.

Exactly. And as a longtime and loyal customer of theirs, when other customers tell me they're a business every time they do something I don't like, it helps me to a sum total of zero.

- Le Messor
"I gotta stop him before he unleashes unholy havoc and it's just another Tuesday night in Sunnydale."
~ Buffy

[suzene]

I'm glad we all have different opinions, cos let's face it, it'd be boring if we didn't.

Generation X #19 - Saquatch essentially implies Alpha Flight were a joke
New Avengers #16 - Alpha Flight killed OFF PANEL
Uncanny X-Men #508 - Northstar essentially implies Alpha Flight were a joke
Chaos War #5 - Sasquatch & Mac shown as intelligent

On that pure & simple reasoning - Phil's opinion = Chaos War #5 = a good appearance.

Maybe I'm looking at it too simply, but that's just me. I don't expect anything more.

I don't take issue with Northstar ragging on Alpha Flight, because I think that is an in-character reaction. (Really, reading back through the Byrne and Mantlo stuff, I'm amazed at all the times he didn't sock someone in the jaw and walk out.) I don't like it, but I think it's a valid interpretation given his rocky history with the team. My moment of tooth-grinding "STFU and read some comics, Fraction" was when Northstar cracks wise about there never being a dull moment around Utopia, and Cyclops responds "This isn't Alpha Flight."

[Garry/Al-Fan]

The blurb at the end of CW:AF says "See Alpha Flight join the fight in Chaos War# 5". Did a fan do that?

[Flightpath07]

and Cyclops responds "This isn't Alpha Flight."

No, it isn't. And it never will be, Cyclops, more is the pity.

Wouldn't it be great if more comics aspired to be like Alpha Flight?

[cmdrkoenig67]

Cyclops secretly wishes he was a member of Alpha Flight.

Dana