#2 spoiler-ful thread

[DelBubs]

Del, would you mind clarifying what you mean by that? Because it's coming off as really dismissive.

Not my intention. It is directed at myself. I was trying to convey that I couldn't find anything in the comic to make me get overly negative. I did have a tendency to only see negatives and ignore positives at one time. If the comment has been taken as dismissive then I can only apologise, never my intention. I'll amend.

[suzene]

Not my intention. It is directed at myself. I was trying to convey that I couldn't find anything in the comic to make me get overly negative. I did have a tendency to only see negatives and ignore positives at one time. If the comment has been taken as dismissive then I can only apologise, never my intention. I'll amend.

Thanks. It's hard to judge for tone over the internet, so I figured I'd ask.

[Phil]

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Also, I was quite shocked that Agent Brown was on the 'evil' side.
I quite liked him in Omega Flight and finally thought the team had found a non-corrupt liason.
Hopefully he's being mind controlled too, rather than just being a company Yes Man.

[DelBubs]

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It's Jerry Jaxon and Heathers really Delphine Courtney, who's personna resides in the suit

I forgot about the Agent Brown issue. I'm with you, he must be being controlled. To much of a character shift.

[Alpha Rider]

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I wonder what Puck ment by "Known to you mortals ..." I wonder if he's possessed or something?

[-K-M-]

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I wonder what Puck ment by "Known to you mortals ..." I wonder if he's possessed or something?

He was the ruler of Hell not to long ago, so he is abit messed in the head right now

[bigbloo]

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He was the ruler of Hell not to long ago, so he is abit messed in the head right now

From what Puck said, and where he came from, I'm getting the suspicion that Unity may be something like demonic possession.

[varo]

suzene, no offense but never once did the scene say molested, it said abused, which can range from mental to physical, not necessarily sexual. thats just a interpretation. i interpreted as every time jm's powers flared up they threw her in a dark room. i fully understand where your coming from as far as the social issue, but a comic book forum seems like the last place you would want to discuss them.

[suzene]

suzene, no offense but never once did the scene say molested, it said abused, which can range from mental to physical, not necessarily sexual. thats just a interpretation. i interpreted as every time jm's powers flared up they threw her in a dark room. i fully understand where your coming from as far as the social issue, but a comic book forum seems like the last place you would want to discuss them.

Art doesn't happen in a vacuum. It reflects the attitudes of the world around it and affects the people partaking of it, and keeping quiet about the negative aspects helps exactly nothing except to allow them to continue unchallenged. Trust that I don't start these discussions for pleasure. I've been waiting for this series as long as the rest of the Flight fandom, and having my enjoyment pulled up short by this sort of thing is not fun. Neither is voicing criticism on a matter of importance to me, knowing that it is going be met with indifference or dismissal from most corners (and in that, I am speaking generally, not specifically of this forum). But it's either speak up or be complicit, and I sleep better if I go with the former.

As for the rest of it: Firstly, the scene is clearly meant to suggest that Jeanne-Marie was sexually abused -- the story that was attached to the scene, that of the person with authority shuffled off to a new batch of victims every time his misconduct was discovered, is a direct lift from the Catholic church sex abuse cases. Secondly, if there wasn't supposed to be any implication of sexual abuse, the scene would not have to be rooted in subtext, as the physical and mental abuse in Byrne's run was directly mentioned. Thirdly, if there was meant to be no suggestion of sexual abuse, FVL could simply have said so when directly questioned about it.

You're free to believe what you want in the face of available evidence, but don't imply that I'm having an unreasonable reaction to a scene with other obvious interpretations.

[Phil]

never once did the scene say molested, it said abused, which can range from mental to physical, not necessarily sexual. thats just a interpretation. i interpreted as every time jm's powers flared up they threw her in a dark room. i fully understand where your coming from as far as the social issue, but a comic book forum seems like the last place you would want to discuss them.

When I read through the issue and the scene in question I did take it to be sexual abuse from the male in question, especially with the other victims(who wouldn't have light powers) and the abuser being moved around.
To me (while obviously not condoning any kind of abuse, lets get that out there for starters) it didn't come off as completely out of nowhere.
In many cases that I've read of (second hand, obviously so I have no real basis to judge it upon and may just be falling to media hype etc.) in a lot of institutions/cases where abuse has been recorded (not just religious institutes either, let's get that stated clearly as well - I'm in no-way making a slight upon religion either, the fact that JM suffered at the hands of nuns is aside) mental abuse and physical abuse tend to go hand in hand.

Had it suddenly been revealed that Heather's reason for joining Unity was that she was molested then I'd be writing this Volume off to the great pile of Mantlo & Lobdell-isms.
(Marrina, Snowbird even more so, but that's just even more ridiculous.)

So for me, while I definitely agree that the implication was sexual abuse and that the story could well have been told without it, I don't feel that it's completely out of place, and nor does it have any baring on my thoughts towards Aurora. In the way I see it, this isn't the cause of the Aurora personality.

But that's just me.
I'm a statistic/database geek who likes pretty pictures. I don't always tend to get themes.

And without putting a mod hat on, this is just my personal opinion so anyone can feel free to disagree: As Del's said, the issue's been raised within the comic so I feel it's very relevant as long as we're basing the conversation on JM/Aurora. I believe that the majority of us are mature enough to deal with the subject here as long as we're keeping it relevant to AF.

Putting my mod hat on: If anyone does have a problem with the subject matter feel free to give Ben, Del, Rob or myself a PM.

[DelBubs]

One thing I can't figure from all of this. FVL may or may not have read sexual abuse into Byrnes story, but Marvel would much rather that kinda controversial story than pissing off the Catholic church. What where they going to do? Stop their secret funding, send in Torquemada to discuss respect with the bullpen, a nun in every office with a ruler and a grimace? Being a devout atheist, I don't know what weight the Papacy carries nowadays. Plus the story actually negates the whole annoying 'his holiness' aspect when you read that the authoritites knew of the caretakers proclivities, but instead of reporting them just moved him onto fresher targets?

[suzene]

One thing I can't figure from all of this. FVL may or may not have read sexual abuse into Byrnes story...

Just to be clear, they did (trying to remember to give fair weight to Greg Pak here, because even if FVL is the Alpha Fan on the team, Pak's name is on there too). From my convo on FVL's Twitter:

I'd argue we just forefronted the obvious subtext of what Byrne set up, but I respect your opinion, even if we disagree.

Though, considering how many people's reaction to this has been "What? I never saw that.", I'd question how obvious that subtext is.

but Marvel would much rather that kinda controversial story than pissing off the Catholic church. What where they going to do? Stop their secret funding, send in Torquemada to discuss respect with the bullpen, a nun in every office with a ruler and a grimace? Being a devout atheist, I don't know what weight the Papacy carries nowadays. Plus the story actually negates the whole annoying 'his holiness' aspect when you read that the authoritites knew of the caretakers proclivities, but instead of reporting them just moved him onto fresher targets?

What's considered offensive/inappropriate seems to change from editorial team to editorial team and rarely makes sense to me -- remember when the exploding communion wafer/raped nun storyline from Austen's run about six years back made print, but Northstar having a boyfriend in that same run was considered too controversial? Or how one teen suicide was considered too dark for a children's title over in New Mutants 2.0, but the next creative team on the book was allowed to blow up a whole busload of students? That using an actual nun was considered too risky while still being able to use the true-life behavior widely publicized by the misdeeds of the Catholic Church (though not exclusive to them, sad to say) as shorthand for sexual abuse is just fine is similarly confounding.

But yeah, the last time anyone really made a fuss over a Marvel book that I saw, was the Tea Party folks getting offended about being portrayed accurately in Captain America. If Austen comparing religion to cancer couldn't get the EIC burned in effigy, I don't think this would have made much of a splash. As it is, I think making the sexual abuse explicit has irked more readers than the nuns would have.

[DelBubs]

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I re-read what was written before I responded to Suzene. The implication was Sexual Abuse, "There were others", "Why, whenever he got found out, his superiors just shipped him off to another town". All the images of the other victims are young females.

This sequence took place in an AF comic so this seems like a reasonable place to discuss the subject matter.

Hopefully no offense will be taken, my intention was to be devils advocate and nothing else.

[suzene]

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Hopefully no offense will be taken, my intention was to be devils advocate and nothing else.

I don't know if this is to me or to varo, but there's no offense on my part.

[bigbloo]

Dear Forum,

Eat my reply one more time, and we are in a fight.

No love,
Me

This happened to me a few times. This is why when I have a long reply, I now compose it on a word document or something.