Crackity Jones' Discovery Of Alpha Flight

[Crackity Jones]

I liked Volume 2, 3 and 4.
They weren't Byrne's Alpha Flight but then again nothing else was/will be.
Hell, even Byrne ran out of ideas and enthusiasm for the team. Who's to say that if he stayed on the book his run wouldn't have been even worse than Mantlo's?

No one is ever going to be able to recreate those first 28 issues and that's what made them so unique and enjoyable.
I don't think writers should be trying to imitate that run; they've got to try and do something similarly unique - sometimes it hits, others it misses; them's the breaks.

And I like Earthmover.

Phil-
You are so...positive.
How many times have you made lemonade now? :P

Seriously, though, you are really positive. It kind of balances the thread out, what, with my instant traumatic/dramatic/freak-out posts I make everytime I read another issue now.
Thank you.

[Mekko Hotvle]

I am still stuck in the Vol #1 phase of AF. Only because been having a hard time finding the later AF Vols. After getting past Byrne's run, I kinda skipped around reading issues. Some have through me for a loop i.e. Walter as a women, the worst villain being Hedlock. But I have enjoyed reading AF so far. But the funniest thing to me during this whole time of being romanced by Canada's heroes is when the scrambled eggs went crazy! I sent that out to other Native Americans and warned them that could happen with our commodity powder eggs. (Native Humor).

[Phil]

Wait... Did Alan Davis draw a single issue? Or was it Neary? (Which would contradict something I said on another thread.)

Nope, he's never drawn an issue.

The closest he's come was drawing Marrina in Dark Reign: The List - X-Men (And that was just one panel of classic Marrina and lots of mutated Leviathan.), and Jeffries in X-Men:Schism #4.

[Chris]

I'm still adjusting to the fact that all of the original members are gone (as of #51), Northstar is living with elves (cause he's now a half elf???), Aurora was abandoned in the dark because: HEATHER, Heather is dancing around claiming her AF is better than Mac's, Purple Girl and Manikin are an item, Sasquatch has forgotten that even though he's physically a woman when in human form, he's still Walter in mind and spirit, and suddenly he is flirting with Gary Cody.

I looked at the scene again with Sasquatch and Gary Cody in issue 51. I don't think Walter was flirting with Cody. I think Walter was just being a smart alec (and I don't mean Alec Thorne

oooh, no. I was actually going to read #52 because that's the one titled "FLASHBACK!", right?
I do like the Jim Lee art.

Actually June Brigman drew issue #52. Jim Lee already needed a fill in artist after drawing one issue. The guy draws so good I always forgive his lateness.
You may want to read AF Annual #2 next since it takes place between issues #51 and #52. June also drew Annual #2. But the story features a lot of Heather so you may not want to read it then. But it does contain a cool fight with Box and a T-Rex. Dinosaurs sure get abused alot in comic books. Where is PETA when you need them?

Ugh. How did you all stick it through Not Alpha??
The original characters are the ONLY reason I am still reading this series.
And as of now, there aren't any originals on the team.

Well I looked at it as I still have 3 Byrne characters on the team. Heather wearing the Vindicator suit. Madison Jeffries wearing the Box armor. And Sasquatch wearing Snowbird's body. And Jim Lee's art helped alot. I think Editor in Chief Jim Shooter had some rule that every issue is someone's first issue. Mantlo would have Jim Lee draw 4 years of Alpha Flight history in flashback scenes in almost every issue. There was no Wikipedia back then to read up on every character's origin and current status.

[Chris]

But the funniest thing to me during this whole time of being romanced by Canada's heroes is when the scrambled eggs went crazy! I sent that out to other Native Americans and warned them that could happen with our commodity powder eggs. (Native Humor).

The next time I want a mean omelette I shall have the Great Beasts cook me one. Specially prepared by Ranaq the Great "Chef".

[Le Messor]

I am still stuck in the Vol #1 phase of AF. Only because been having a hard time finding the later AF Vols. After getting past Byrne's run, I kinda skipped around reading issues...

Sounds like you've been getting the best of the best, though.

the funniest thing to me during this whole time of being romanced by Canada's heroes is when the scrambled eggs went crazy! I sent that out to other Native Americans and warned them that could happen with our commodity powder eggs.

Lol! That is great!

Nope, he's never drawn an issue. The closest he's come was drawing Marrina in Dark Reign: The List - X-Men (And that was just one panel of classic Marrina and lots of mutated Leviathan.), and Jeffries in X-Men:Schism #4.

I've just checked; I was thinking of v2 #6, which was a Hitch / Neary joint.
I associate Davis and Neary because Neary inked him on one of his series.

Phil-You are so...positive.
Thank you.

Seconded!

~ Le Messor
"Most of the time we don't communicate; we just take turns talking."

[Flightpath07]

I liked Volume 2, 3 and 4.
They weren't Byrne's Alpha Flight but then again nothing else was/will be.
Hell, even Byrne ran out of ideas and enthusiasm for the team. Who's to say that if he stayed on the book his run wouldn't have been even worse than Mantlo's?

No one is ever going to be able to recreate those first 28 issues and that's what made them so unique and enjoyable.
I don't think writers should be trying to imitate that run; they've got to try and do something similarly unique - sometimes it hits, others it misses; them's the breaks.

And I like Earthmover.

That's nicely put, Phil; all of it (you're very verbose, my friend!). All of the various Alpha series(es?) have something good about them, most of them quite a few things. And some bad also, quite a few bad things actually. But, for each of us, those bad and good things will be different for each reader.

Volume 3, even though it was a 'joke' and handled flippantly, and a mess at times, was what drew me to Alpha, or at least back to Alpha. I had quit reading in the late 50's (issues, not my age or the year), and got rid of ALL my comics. When i heard that Alpha was coming back for a Volume 3, i didn't even know that Volume 1 had ended! While i waited for Volume 3 to come out, i hit eBay (ouch!) and collected all of Volume 1 and 2. Long story short, here i am, you can't get rid of me now! (Well, you could block my IP...but surely SOMEBODY would miss me!)

And, Phil, you are the glue that stirs the drink, sir!

[Crackity Jones]

I looked at the scene again with Sasquatch and Gary Cody in issue 51. I don't think Walter was flirting with Cody. I think Walter was just being a smart alec (and I don't mean Alec Thorne

Oh! Ha, you are probably correct. I mean, I took it as a joke, just not for the same reasons.

Actually June Brigman drew issue #52. Jim Lee already needed a fill in artist after drawing one issue. The guy draws so good I always forgive his lateness.
You may want to read AF Annual #2 next since it takes place between issues #51 and #52. June also drew Annual #2. But the story features a lot of Heather so you may not want to read it then. But it does contain a cool fight with Box and a T-Rex. Dinosaurs sure get abused alot in comic books. Where is PETA when you need them?

I haven't even read Annual #1 yet because I forgot about it. Oops! I can read both of those here soon, then, before I read #52.

Well I looked at it as I still have 3 Byrne characters on the team. Heather wearing the Vindicator suit. Madison Jeffries wearing the Box armor. And Sasquatch wearing Snowbird's body. And Jim Lee's art helped alot. I think Editor in Chief Jim Shooter had some rule that every issue is someone's first issue. Mantlo would have Jim Lee draw 4 years of Alpha Flight history in flashback scenes in almost every issue. There was no Wikipedia back then to read up on every character's origin and current status.

Another positive thinker! <3
Because I don't count those three as original Alpha members (I didn't think of Madison Jeffries) because Heather is different and wasn't really a member until Mantlo's run (and even if so, I still don't her count because she is awful), and Sasquatch I don't count, I guess, because he isn't in his original orange suit or human form.

[Tawmis]

My friend just received the first 10 issues of Byrne's run, so I'm going to re-read it while she's reading it for the first time.
I could probably use to do it anyway since so much character development and happenings are awesomely crammed into those first 10 issues.

So you can warn her about what follows after issue #28...

I liked Volume 2, 3 and 4.

Like I said, I originally liked Volume 2. But the art, when I tried to re-read it, was... bad. And Murmur and Manbot? Finally an Alpha Flight character created that I hate more than Manikin...

No one is ever going to be able to recreate those first 28 issues and that's what made them so unique and enjoyable.
I don't think writers should be trying to imitate that run; they've got to try and do something similarly unique - sometimes it hits, others it misses; them's the breaks.
And I like Earthmover.

I don't think someone should try to recreate it - but others should follow the established character personalities. This is what I think did not happen.

And how can you possibly like Earthmover. Please sell me on how he's a good character. (Seriously! I'd like to hear it!) But I can't say too much, I actually liked Wyre, and I know a lot of people disliked him.

Then just take it; take another little piece of my heart!

So help me if that song gets stuck in my head...

iirc, that was spoilered before #1 hit the stands.

I meant for Crackity.

Llan.

By far. The worse. You are correct. But I am surprised you were able to guess. I am usually so subtle about my hatred of the character...

I am still stuck in the Vol #1 phase of AF. Only because been having a hard time finding the later AF Vols. After getting past Byrne's run, I kinda skipped around reading issues. Some have through me for a loop i.e. Walter as a women, the worst villain being Hedlock. But I have enjoyed reading AF so far. But the funniest thing to me during this whole time of being romanced by Canada's heroes is when the scrambled eggs went crazy! I sent that out to other Native Americans and warned them that could happen with our commodity powder eggs. (Native Humor).

Worse villain being Headlok? You must have skipped the Llan the Sorcerer story, my friend. LOL

[Phil]

But the art, when I tried to re-read it, was... bad.

The Rouleau stuff was quite stylistic and I can see why people didn't like it.
I personally wouldn't use the term bad though.

And Murmur and Manbot? Finally an Alpha Flight character created that I hate more than Manikin...

Yeah, Murmur was pretty redundant but was an important part of the Legacy sub plot they were building and never got to.
Manbot didn't have a chance to show any point or potential, again for the same reason.

I don't think someone should try to recreate it - but others should follow the established character personalities. This is what I think did not happen.

These are fictional characters though; you can only follow established personalities for so long without repeating them. Hence re-creation.

And how can you possibly like Earthmover. Please sell me on how he's a good character. (Seriously! I'd like to hear it!)

Earthmover is essentially Shaman & Talisman; a normal every day citizen pulled into a legacy of shaman magic.
To write one off is to write the other two off.
The problem with him is essentially the same as Murmur; he was a redundant character because Shaman & Talisman existed and fulfilled the role, and that he literally got 2 issues of guest appearances before being reduced to silent cameos.

But I can't say too much, I actually liked Wyre, and I know a lot of people disliked him.

He's my fourth favourite Alphan after Sasquatch, Puck and Wild Child.

Worse villain being Headlok? You must have skipped the Llan the Sorcerer story, my friend. LOL

I saw no problem in Llan as a character whatsoever.
Just the resolution of the arc.

[Crackity Jones]

These are fictional characters though; you can only follow established personalities for so long without repeating them. Hence re-creation.

IMO, it's okay to ADD to personalities of characters, but not change them.
Which is what I feel has happened a LOT in what I've read of Mantlo's run so far.
You start changing pre-loved and established characters, you kill off a good portion of your loyal audience, imo.

[Phil]

IMO, it's okay to ADD to personalities of characters, but not change them.
Which is what I feel has happened a LOT in what I've read of Mantlo's run so far.
You start changing pre-loved and established characters, you kill off a good portion of your loyal audience, imo.

I definitely agree to an extent but there's a very blurred line between adding and changing, and a distinct one between changing and contrasting.
My personality has changed from 5 years ago; I've grown/evolved/natured/nurtured/endured.
Change is fine as long as there's a justifiable, logical reason.

[Crackity Jones]

I definitely agree to an extent but there's a very blurred line between adding and changing, and a distinct one between changing and contrasting.
My personality has changed from 5 years ago; I've grown/evolved/natured/nurtured/endured.
Change is fine as long as there's a justifiable, logical reason.

What I meant by "add to characters' personalities" is that, obviously characters are going to go through written experiences which will add to what they are and (blurred line of "add" and "change" here) that may somewhat change how they are, but to make them completely different than how they started and were initially established? No.
Heather was a strong woman BEFORE entering Mantlo's run. He didn't have to put her into a suit and make her Mega B!tch leader to establish that she was a strong leader. Because that didn't make her strong. It just made her a b!tch, imo.
She is completely different than when Byrne wrote her. Yes, her situation changed, he could have added that to her life experiences, but not make her a completely different character like he did.

Also: I've changed as well over the past 5 years. But I'm not a fictional character. People aren't reading my life with the expectations of knowing who I am.

[Phil]

What I meant by "add to characters' personalities" is that, obviously characters are going to go through written experiences which will add to what they are and (blurred line of "add" and "change" here) that may somewhat change how they are, but to make them completely different than how they started and were initially established? No.

Then in that case Mantlo didn't change the characters personalities, he completely contradicted what was already established, with no good reason.
Which is poor writing.
Which I totally agree with you on.

People aren't reading my life with the expectations of knowing who I am.

Does that then raise the question that we have expectations of these characters?
We don't own them, we didn't create them, we have no claim to them...

(Being devil's advocate here, I'm 90% with you on Mantlo's issues)

[Crackity Jones]

Then in that case Mantlo didn't change the characters personalities, he completely contradicted what was already established, with no good reason.
Which is poor writing.
Which I totally agree with you on.

Well, at least we agree that it just sucked. And he ruined my Heather.

Does that then raise the question that we have expectations of these characters?
We don't own them, we didn't create them, we have no claim to them...

(Being devil's advocate here, I'm 90% with you on Mantlo's issues)

Yes, we expect a certain amount of fundamental consistencies in our fictional characters, I think. At least I do.
It's what makes them relatable.

Whether or not I have a right to expect that, it's what I do.