Crackity Jones' Discovery Of Alpha Flight

[Tawmis]

Under Byrne, he had that blue collar thing going for him. He was just an average Joe, trying to make a living, but happened to have superpowers. I liked that. It felt 'different'. It evaporated the moment Mantlo took over, though, and he turned into just another superhero.

I agree 101% with the above. So absolutely. I liked him in the big "clunky" Box armor.

I _hated_ once he was able to transform in anything - including a massive freaking jet.
....

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I might be the only one, but I was glad when the Jade Dragon and China Force got written out of Alpha Flight. And it didn't take long. I was really glad when Hudnall reversed Michael-as-'Talisman' and Walter-as-'Wanda'...again, it didn't take long.

I haven't commented on the artwork, just because the book apparently kept its schedule which seemed to be the over-riding concern, at the time. Do I wonder what (old-school) Alpha Flight would've looked like if someone like Neal Adams or Jim Steranko had been interested in illustrating them? Yep. Someone like Art Adams or Tom Grummett, now? Yes, indeedy.

The book had a balance under Hudnall that was lacking in the Mantlo era, although Llan breaking Sasquatch's arms was a bit much, imho. And Jeffries and Lil made better sense than Jeffries and Heather.

[Le Messor]

I might be the only one, but I was glad when the Jade Dragon and China Force got written out of Alpha Flight. And it didn't take long. I was really glad when Hudnall reversed Michael-as-'Talisman' and Walter-as-'Wanda'...again, it didn't take long.

You're not the only one.

Do I wonder what (old-school) Alpha Flight would've looked like if someone like Neal Adams or Jim Steranko had been interested in illustrating them? Yep. Someone like Art Adams or Tom Grummett, now? Yes, indeedy.

Hmm... I'd love a Neal Adams Alpha Flight. Art Adams? Not as much (I love his art, but it's better in a fantasy setting, like the X-Men and New Mutants in Asgard than in an everyday world, like an ordinary superhero comic). It'd still be great, but I'd prefer Neal to Art.
Grummet... Yep, that'd be great.
I don't have a real feel for Steranko's artwork (though I have plenty of comics he's illustrated).

And Jeffries and Lil made better sense than Jeffries and Heather.

Well, Jeffries and Lil went back to Byrne's days, where we knew they were ex-lovers.

~ Le Messor
"I think I know where to sign on a sexual harassment suit."
~ The I.T. Crowd

[Tawmis]

I might be the only one, but I was glad when the Jade Dragon and China Force got written out of Alpha Flight. And it didn't take long. I was really glad when Hudnall reversed Michael-as-'Talisman' and Walter-as-'Wanda'...again, it didn't take long.

I don't think you're alone in any of this. I think most people were glad to see Shaman as Shaman, and Talisman as Talisman, and Walter as Walter (rather than Wanda). I can't, even on the CBR forum, think of anyone who would argue that.

The book had a balance under Hudnall that was lacking in the Mantlo era, although Llan breaking Sasquatch's arms was a bit much, imho. And Jeffries and Lil made better sense than Jeffries and Heather.

That's one of the many issues I had with Llan. To me, he was written to be "Looks How Bad Arse And Evil I Am" - and didn't do it in a way that really showed it properly. To me, it seemed like Hudnall was trying too hard - to show how "evil" Llan was.

[Flightpath07]

That's one of the many issues I had with Llan. To me, he was written to be "Looks How Bad Arse And Evil I Am" - and didn't do it in a way that really showed it properly. To me, it seemed like Hudnall was trying too hard - to show how "evil" Llan was.

I'm pretty sure our interview here with Hudnall said that he had planned on making Llan's run much longer, where he ended up being behind many plotlines in the shadows but unknown to the reader until it was later revealed. As i have said before, i would have gladly read what Hudnall planned to wrote, instead of what editorial interference forced him to write. I believe the shortening of the original plan resulted in a much more "forced" revealing of Llan's evilness.

I just find it hard, for myself, to blame a writer who was forced to go away from what he wanted to do, to that extent.

[Tawmis]

I'm pretty sure our interview here with Hudnall said that he had planned on making Llan's run much longer, where he ended up being behind many plotlines in the shadows but unknown to the reader until it was later revealed. As i have said before, i would have gladly read what Hudnall planned to wrote, instead of what editorial interference forced him to write. I believe the shortening of the original plan resulted in a much more "forced" revealing of Llan's evilness. I just find it hard, for myself, to blame a writer who was forced to go away from what he wanted to do, to that extent.

Oh, I love what Hudnall did with everything else. My only thing was Llan, that I disliked, really.

But sometimes, you have to wonder, how much is it the writer (blaming either the artist for being delayed, or the editors for stepping in the way of the stories they want to tell). I am sure, a lot of times it is true. But, with a book like Alpha Flight (and this is no slight against the team) - but it wouldn't seem like editors would be too concerned with what was done with the book (unlike, say X-Men or Avengers).

[EccentricSage]

It's okay. I really do NOT like Jeffries. I never had much interest in him as a character before he became Box, but at least he was likeable. Then he became Box, and I never liked how Mantlo made them a thing.
But then once they became a thing, and Hudnall started writing them, I accepted it. And then the jerk went and cheated on her with Diamond Lil.
Now I don't like him. And I never probably will. However, I like Diamond Lil, and will probably like her even more once I get to know her better (she gets more development).

Oh, and I'm a female. I love to fangirl, and I barely meet anyone, irl, who fangirls as much as I do. I'm kind of used to keeping it to myself.

Kewl! Me, I think I like the characters I like for their untapped potential more than anything... And Madison Jeffries is LOADED with untapped or misused potential... as are Wildchild and Diamond Lil.... Once I start to get ideas of my own I get really attached. I have really mixed feeling about how Jeffries has been handled over time... On the one hand I think him trying to replace Mac as the Alpha Male kind of followed Byrne's story... Jeffries was the dark horse who saves the day, after all, and gives a nice little speech about his admiration for what Mac stood for... right before throwing his friends under the bus to run off with Alpha Flight. I think if you look at Madison Jeffries as someone who's trying too hard to be something he's not, a lot of the things people have done with him start to make sense. I'm missing most of Mantlo's run, save for some of the less offensive issues, but I've finally caught up on this thread which has been helpful. I totally agree that Mantlo went WTF overboard with pushing Jeffries and Heather, and am bummed about how things went down with poor Bochs... so unecasary... And Aurora will forever have that psycho-***** third personality for writers to exploit now... Frank Tieri's handling of her outside of AF for example.

The thing that bugs me about when he hooks back up with Lil is how in one panel she calls him 'Mr. Jeffries' which is just weird for an ex-lover to do... and then she tries to apologize for Omega Flight and he says 'it's ok, I know all about that' or whatever.... Was that Hudnal or Mantlo...? I mean... it makes no sense... she's apologizing to the man who threw her under the bus for her mind control, and of course he knows all about it... just... wut?! I really wish they'd never hooked back up. Lil deserved better than Madison Jeffries, quite frankly! You'll see why I say that later on! And yes, I think you'll like her, she has a really cool story in LiveWorld at one point, despite the painful art.

Speaking of which, I'd love to attempt to re-draw some of that run for practice, if anyone has the time to transcribe the script, even for just one decent issue. I'm missing some of Hudnal's run, too, and I also don't want to draw directly from the bad artist's work because I find it influences me and limits how I can picture the story.

Under Byrne, he had that blue collar thing going for him. He was just an average Joe, trying to make a living, but happened to have superpowers.
I liked that. It felt 'different'.

It evaporated the moment Mantlo took over, though, and he turned into just another superhero.

~ Le Messor
"Nature tools along, not knowing that it's unified."
~ Allan Sandage

I liked that about Jeffries, too. Pretty much all my AF favorites are down on their luck, working class, and/or outcasts. I can rationalize the change in Jeffries being him 'taking his big chance' and getting carried away... That's how I reconcile a lot of his history, personally.

Totally agreed on both parts.

I hated the idea of him as an alpha-male heartthrob. I even preferred Tieri's brainwashed version.

I quite like him how he is now (or how he was when last seen him) as at least he's not just another generic superhero.

Eeeeeew Tieri.

If I ever worked for marvel I'd draw him with that squinty eye'd face and the nose that looked like it's been broken several times that Byrne had designed. That was a believable character. Last time I saw him he looked like Reed Richard's long lost brother, though, and acted like he'd become autistic or something... Have I missed anything good, or is this more a case of the absence of outstandingly bad developments passing as good enough? I just think he's gone from being stupidly over powered to completely pathetic wet noodle, personally. Kind of sad.

[Le Messor]

That's one of the many issues I had with Llan. To me, he was written to be "Looks How Bad Arse And Evil I Am" - and didn't do it in a way that really showed it properly. To me, it seemed like Hudnall was trying too hard - to show how "evil" Llan was.

I hate that... but at least it's a villain doing it here!

I'm missing most of Mantlo's run, save for some of the less offensive issues,

My reading brain went on the fritz. I kept reading that as 'I really miss those offensive issues', not 'I have none of the issues except the less offensive ones', which you clearly meant.

The thing that bugs me about when he hooks back up with Lil is how in one panel she calls him 'Mr. Jeffries' which is just weird for an ex-lover to do...

To be fair, he never liked going by his first name.
To be unfair (?), the 'Mr.' makes it sound weird.

Speaking of which, I'd love to attempt to re-draw some of that run for practice,

I tried that too, once. I just didn't get very far (ran out of steam after a few pages; and I was working from the art, not the script).

Last time I saw him he looked like Reed Richard's long lost brother, though, and acted like he'd become autistic or something... Have I missed anything good, or is this more a case of the absence of outstandingly bad developments passing as good enough?

Whatever happened, it happened in X-Men and Weapon X... I'm probably missing a lot of the X-Men issues, but I think it's just one of those cases of 'We want to write a bunch of dull, emotionless characters (or angry, nasty characters) with nothing to make people want to read them. Uh... uh... It's Realistic! You'd be that way too, if you'd been through what this character has been through! REALISTIC!!!!!!!!!!!'

~ Le Messor
"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."
~ Albert Einstein

[Tawmis]

I hate that... but at least it's a villain doing it here!

I just feel like DreamQueen got wrapped up and Llan was introduced; it just feels like had the story been extended, this could have been a story that centered on DreamQueen more (which would have been nice!), and perhaps made it more enjoyable. (And less of a "city of mass murder spree" would have been nice too...)

[Le Messor]

I just feel like DreamQueen got wrapped up and Llan was introduced; it just feels like had the story been extended, this could have been a story that centered on DreamQueen more (which would have been nice!), and perhaps made it more enjoyable. (And less of a "city of mass murder spree" would have been nice too...)

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, either. As much as I did like Hudnall's writing, the Llan character and story are... not my favourites.
(Remember, for example, how we found out his name? Neither do I. One issue he was just 'the Sorcerer', the next they were calling him Llan as if that had always been his name.)

~ Le Messor
"I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure."

[Tawmis]

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, either. As much as I did like Hudnall's writing, the Llan character and story are... not my favourites. (Remember, for example, how we found out his name? Neither do I. One issue he was just 'the Sorcerer', the next they were calling him Llan as if that had always been his name.)

I don't even remember that they suddenly just knew his name!

[Phil]

Where for art thou Crackity?

[Flightpath07]

Where for art thou Crackity?

Ha ha. I was just thinking something similar to this. Seems awfully quiet on this thread lately!

[Tawmis]

Where for art thou Crackity?

She's been pretty busy lately, she's mentioned it on the CBR forums (and vanished from there shortly after).

[Tawmis]

Posted from Crackity over on CBR today:
I haven't been able to even touch a comic in at least a week due to being really busy. I can just skip the summaries and read them when I have caught up. Thanks, though!