Crackity Jones' Discovery Of Alpha Flight

[Phil]

Was Rouleau the first or second artist? Another artist came on who was more cartoony - I found that more bearable.
Keep in mind, when I say bad - I mean by the standard I'd expect and hope from Marvel.

Rouleau was the final artist, whose art was actually disliked more by the general readership than Clark's who opened the series, which just goes to prove art is personal.
And again that shows that your expectations and hope differ from everyone elses.

We got, what, 20 issues? That was more than enough time to inject some personality, besides a one dimensional piece of cardboard.

It wasn't 20 issues of Murmur though.
At some point I'll have a count of the actual panels she appears in and the amount of words she actually says.
Her personality was ignored at the sake of Mac/Heather/Puck etc's. Which I agree with.

Right, everyone changes. But not so drastically, usually, without it being:
- A major event in their life
- Mental illness

And her husband being blown up in front of her wasn't major?

He had the personality of a rock.
And that's insulting some of my pet rocks I had in my youth!

He had no personality at all, for the very reason I've mentioned with regards to Murmur.
Stan Lee has had more lines in Marvel Comics than Earthmover.

Redundant can easily exist. I thought Shaman and Talisman, were pretty much the same. But they each stuck out. Aurora and Northstar are the same, but they stuck out.

Northstar and Aurora were introduced at the same time though so no redundancy.
Talisman was essentially a carbon copy of Shaman.

Personality!

Personality needs time to develop.

Earthmover had two guest appearances in the pages of Wolverine.
Did Shaman have a personality based on just Uncanny X-Men #120-121? No, he definitely didn't.
You have to apply the same rule to both characters.

Really? Earthmover? Over Snowbird? Shaman? Talisman? Aurora? Northstar?

No, Wyre over all 5 of those.

[Phil]

Um... Yes, it will be fixed.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here as it definitely doesn't get fixed, just never mentioned again...

[Phil]

Someone posted it in an X-Factor thread somewhere else, and I thought I was dreaming for a minute: I mean, a mix of X-Factor and Alpha Flight? I don't see it ever happening, but I GOT SUPER EXCITED FOR A SECOND because I thought Marvel really loved me and was going to make allllll my comic dreams come true.

You may like #107... Or at least the cover.

[TSOG]

Earthmover had two guest appearances in the pages of Wolverine.
Did Shaman have a personality based on just Uncanny X-Men #120-121? No, he definitely didn't.
You have to apply the same rule to both characters.

I was late in reading his appearances but I'd heard the hate for him prior to doing so.

When I did read them, I didn't really get it. He's not a terrible character by any means. I guess he felt a little random, and maybe shoe-horned, but not to the degree that he should be dismissed entirely.

I certainly enjoyed him more than any of the noobs in volume 2. Or 3, for that matter (although I believe that Yukon Jack had potential. There, I said it).

[TSOG]

Um... Yes, it will be fixed.
And, he shows up alive later.

Then dies again.
And comes back.
And croaks.
But returns.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Is Mac the all-time leader in resurrections? Is there a stat for that?

[TSOG]

I have no womanly charm. Even when I try it's ruined by me either sneezing, tripping over myself and falling, partially walking into a wall or doorway, freaking out over a bug, a panic attack, a paper cut, accidental work-related injury, a lack of good depth perception, or saying the wrong, stupidest thing at the wrong time (is there EVER a right time to say something stupid?).

Oh, you're human? Pleased to meet you.

[Tawmis]

I have no womanly charm. Even when I try it's ruined by saying the wrong, stupidest thing at the wrong time (is there EVER a right time to say something stupid?).

Are you Heather?

It wasn't 20 issues of Murmur though. At some point I'll have a count of the actual panels she appears in and the amount of words she actually says. Her personality was ignored at the sake of Mac/Heather/Puck etc's. Which I agree with.

True, but if you're going to throw a new character at us - why not do what Byrne did? Spend an issue focusing on her so the readers have something to associate her with. Some reason to like her, or dislike her (and by dislike her, I mean because she's such a ***** or whatever - sort of like M. A lot of people dislike her, but for all the right reasons - because she's so stand off'ish, and that's a part of her personality and charm, if you will!)

At least, with Radius, I felt like he got a lot of development, showing how overly cocky he was, and he was clearly over compensating...

And her husband being blown up in front of her wasn't major?

It was. But it's not like she threw on her costume and then lost all her common sense right after. He died in issue #12. Heather seems to go through a complete change many, many, many issues later (a little over a year, in issues).

Personality needs time to develop.

I agree. But sometimes you can define a character in a single issue, if you do it right.

There was 20 issues. And it never happened. Other than "Don't you dare touch me!" type attitude.

Did Shaman have a personality based on just Uncanny X-Men #120-121? No, he definitely didn't.
You have to apply the same rule to both characters.

120 he was a shadow. 121 was his first full appearance. So naturally, no personality is developed in the first appearance. But in the original, he got a personality pretty quick. Especially when Talisman was introduced.

No, Wyre over all 5 of those.

[/quote]

Okay, you prefer Wyre to all those original members I mentioned? Phil, something is wrong with you! I mean it's expected of me, but not normal people...!

Then dies again.
And comes back.
And croaks.
But returns.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Is Mac the all-time leader in resurrections? Is there a stat for that?

Him and Jean certainly have a lot in common. Deaths. Alternate versions. Clones.

I wonder who leads in this...

[Crackity Jones]

Then dies again.
And comes back.
And croaks.
But returns.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Is Mac the all-time leader in resurrections? Is there a stat for that?

Poor Mac. It sucks when your fave is treated the worst out of all the team members and only lives, initially, for 13 issues.

I think Le Messor was answering my question about whether or not Gary Cody was really dead.

[Crackity Jones]

Are you Heather?

*gasp*!
BITE YOUR TONGUE, Tawmis!

[Crackity Jones]

Hate to say I told you so...

You said I might not like it, you never said it was going to be worst thing EVER.
It wasn't just the Mac stuff that got to me.
It was Heather and her stupid thought bubbles of how awful Mac was (on the anniversary of his death?) and then making out with Jeffries. I don't think that could have been written any worse.

[Crackity Jones]

Oh, you're human? Pleased to meet you.

Yes, that I am.
And nice to meet you, TSOG!

[Phil]

True, but if you're going to throw a new character at us - why not do what Byrne did? Spend an issue focusing on her so the readers have something to associate her with.

Because had they done that with single new characters the series would have been cancelled 4 issues in.
Byrne had lots of negative comments about the fact that the team wasn't a team for the first 11 issues and that was in the early 80's.
To spend a whole issue of a team book focused on a single new character in the late 90's would have caused outrage.

At least, with Radius, I felt like he got a lot of development, showing how overly cocky he was, and he was clearly over compensating...

Because he got more panels.
Had Murmur had the same development at the expense of him we'd be calling Radius a pointless, vapid rip-off rather than her.

It was. But it's not like she threw on her costume and then lost all her common sense right after. He died in issue #12. Heather seems to go through a complete change many, many, many issues later (a little over a year, in issues).

She did throw on the costume pretty soon after, definitely in Byrne's run.
Just not to the extent Mantlo took it to.
I'm not defending the changes he did make, but some changes would have been natural.

I agree. But sometimes you can define a character in a single issue, if you do it right.

Definitely.

There was 20 issues. And it never happened. Other than "Don't you dare touch me!" type attitude.

Again, for reasons mentioned above.
Would we have been happier if Murmur had had more coverage than Heather & Puck?

120 he was a shadow. 121 was his first full appearance. So naturally, no personality is developed in the first appearance.

And Earthmover had pretty much the equivalent panel time in Wolverine #179 as Shaman had in #120, and then in Wolverine #180 as Shaman had in #121.
By the time he got to Vol.3 he was a speechless cameo and referred to as "Guy whose name I've forgotten." (paraphrased)

Okay, you prefer Wyre to all those original members I mentioned? Phil, something is wrong with you! I mean it's expected of me, but not normal people...!

I was first exposed to comics in the 90's... Take that as you will.

Anyway, Volume 2 is well off of Crackity's radar right now, so we should probably take this to another thread...

[TSOG]

It wasn't just the Mac stuff that got to me.
It was Heather and her stupid thought bubbles of how awful Mac was (on the anniversary of his death?) and then making out with Jeffries. I don't think that could have been written any worse.

Yeah...She was awful quick to accept it, eh?

Often when you about a someone being arrested for a murder that had been investigated, his or her close relatives will say something like "I can't believe it! (S)he would never do such a thing!"

Not Mantlo Heather though! She hops right on board with the notion!

[Crackity Jones]

Yeah...She was awful quick to accept it, eh?

Often when you about a someone being arrested for a murder that had been investigated, his or her close relatives will say something like "I can't believe it! (S)he would never do such a thing!"

Not Mantlo Heather though! She hops right on board with the notion!

YESSSS.
And wtf @ her finding out Wolverine loved her and then being all, "DOILOVEWOLVERINETOO?? MAYBEICOULD."
Shut up, Heather. Just. Shut. Up. Just do not think. You're horrible at it.

[Le Messor]

(is there EVER a right time to say something stupid?).

When it's funny?

I'm not sure what you're referring to here as it definitely doesn't get fixed, just never mentioned again...

Hmm... I thought it had been retconned out later (CJ - I was referring to the Mac stuff). Don't they decide that they don't believe it or something?
It was never a strong retcon, but I thought it happened?

Is Mac the all-time leader in resurrections? Is there a stat for that?

They're measured in Megajeans.

She did throw on the costume pretty soon after, definitely in Byrne's run.

There was a panel where she draped it over her body, 'I don't know what I'm doing, really. Reminiscing?' but she never actually wore it in Byrne's run.

Often when you about a someone being arrested for a murder that had been investigated, his or her close relatives will say something like "I can't believe it! (S)he would never do such a thing!"

I'm remembering... something... I read aaaages ago, which was talking about tropes in fiction, and they say something like 'and now the woman believes her beloved husband of many years is an evil bad guy because the nasty man with the scar and the eyepatch said so'.

~ Le Messor
"She was always the quiet type, but... she never told me she was a mime!"
~ 'Weird Al' Yankovic