Crackity Jones' Discovery Of Alpha Flight

[Flightpath07]

Thank you, Phil.
I won't read it yet.

Once you are done with Hudnall's issues, you might want to give it a once-over, it does explain a lot about what the poop went on. There are actually a lot of cool interviews buried (?) on this site.

[Flightpath07]

Re-reading that interview, I'd hire him to do another Alpha series; it seems like he really cared about the characters a lot!

[Phil]

Re-reading that interview, I'd hire him to do another Alpha series; it seems like he really cared about the characters a lot!

It's always hard to judge.
Everyone uses the 'big fans of the team and Byrne' line in interviews but they never do it justice.
Mantlo is the biggest example of this, to bring it all full circle.

[Le Messor]

It's always hard to judge.
Everyone uses the 'big fans of the team and Byrne' line in interviews but they never do it justice.
Mantlo is the biggest example of this, to bring it all full circle.

I want to see those scripts he spoke of; I think they'd be cool. We could judge for ourselves the difference between his vision and the published version.

[Phil]

There are actually a lot of cool interviews buried (?) on this site.

From the homepage just click on either of the Interviews tabs:

[Flightpath07]

From the homepage just click on either of the Interviews tabs:

D'oh!

Wait, there's a Homepage? lol

[Phil]

It's easy for me to sit here and judge now as I know what comes after Mantlo.
I pretty much went through the exact stages of emotions and views you went through; which is a sign that there's something universally wrong with Mantlo's run.

[Crackity Jones]

It's easy for me to sit here and judge now as I know what comes after Mantlo.
I pretty much went through the exact stages of emotions and views you went through; which is a sign that there's something universally wrong with Mantlo's run.

Yes, that there is. I just wonder what would have possessed him to do with the series what he did. A lot of it, so far, has seemed like shock value quality.
For example, Northstar being gay: I understand this was not allowed to be written about in comics back then, so that it was just strongly hinted on, but to me, it could have been hinted at differently instead of everyone making the occasional crack on Northstar. It was still done distastefully.

[Le Messor]

Maybe that's my problem then: I have no idea what Mantlo was going for. I just know what I am reading is messed up. haha. But what you say makes sense.

I'm still gonna put it on Mantlo; he's the one who didn't make his intentions clear.
OTOH, rape is okay if it happens to a guy (huge eyeroll here).

Yes, I agree and am well aware that my reaction to most of Mantlo's run so far has been that I'm reading it currently, so that will cause my reaction to possibly be different than had I read it in the 80's.

For example, Northstar being gay: I understand this was not allowed to be written about in comics back then, so that it was just strongly hinted on, but to me, it could have been hinted at differently instead of everyone making the occasional crack on Northstar. It was still done distastefully.

I don't know... If you read it back then, you might not know Northstar was gay. The jibes aren't as obvious without hindsight; so it's harder to say how you might react.
That said, Byrne handled it much better. Of course.

Because, yeah, times have changed. Things are accepted now that were not accepted then.

Many things have been lost that should not have been forgotten, and things have been found that perhaps were better left...
(I'm trying for Galadriel's voiceover from Fellowship here... the fact that I feel the need to tell you should say about how much I think I'm succeeding.)

It's easy for me to sit here and judge now as I know what comes after Mantlo.

And that's what I like about it; it's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, judging Mantlo's run. </Jack Handey>

I pretty much went through the exact stages of emotions and views you went through; which is a sign that there's something universally wrong with Mantlo's run.

Agreed.

Yes, that there is. I just wonder what would have possessed him to do with the series what he did. A lot of it, so far, has seemed like shock value quality.

Well, remember the guy was suffering a terrible burn-out at the time and was pretty much losing his art. He was actually a good writer, once.

~ Le Messor
"We love to scoff at the beliefs of the Ancients. But we can't scoff personally, to their faces, and that really bugs me."
~ Jack Handey

[Chris]

I don't know... If you read it back then, you might not know Northstar was gay. The jibes aren't as obvious without hindsight; so it's harder to say how you might react.
That said, Byrne handled it much better. Of course.

I did not realize Northstar was gay until issue 100 when Marvel published a letter about the "AIDS" storyline and discussing his orientation. I always thought he was just shy around women. I was 11 years old when I first started reading Alpha Flight in 1984. There's alot of things I didn't catch around that age of reading comic books. Then after rereading all those issues years later, it was like, how did I not see that?

[Crackity Jones]

I'm still gonna put it on Mantlo; he's the one who didn't make his intentions clear.
OTOH, rape is okay if it happens to a guy (huge eyeroll here).

Of course. It's bothersome that this would ever even be something people would think. Or could think.

I don't know... If you read it back then, you might not know Northstar was gay. The jibes aren't as obvious without hindsight; so it's harder to say how you might react.
That said, Byrne handled it much better. Of course.

I think it depends upon how old you were when you first read it. Which kind of goes into what Chris said. At 10 years old, I might not have known.
12 or 14? I would have caught on. Not during Byrne's run, maybe, but during Mantlo's? Yes, I would have known Northstar was gay.

And that's what I like about it; it's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, judging Mantlo's run. </Jack Handey>

HAHAHAHA. You're the best.

Well, remember the guy was suffering a terrible burn-out at the time and was pretty much losing his art. He was actually a good writer, once.

~ Le Messor
"We love to scoff at the beliefs of the Ancients. But we can't scoff personally, to their faces, and that really bugs me."
~ Jack Handey

No, I don't remember because I didn't know.
All I know of Mantlo, really, is that his AF run is, at best, questionable.

[Chris]

I think it depends upon how old you were when you first read it. Which kind of goes into what Chris said. At 10 years old, I might not have known.
12 or 14? I would have caught on. Not during Byrne's run, maybe, but during Mantlo's? Yes, I would have known Northstar was gay.

I guess I was naive. Or stupid. I always thought that disease Northstar had some sort of tuberculosis. Marvel couldn't mention AIDS or have gay super heroes back in 1987. But I am so glad Marvel decided not to kill Northstar. He has always been and will always be one of my favorite Alphans and super heroes.

[Tawmis]

Being a huge ROM fan, I agree with what you say about ROM. I still haven't read Bill's entire Micronauts run yet. But I consider the team of Bill Mantlo and Sal Buscema the golden years of ROM. And when I say golden I don't mean Michael Golden. You ROM & Micronauts fans know what I'm talking about. Looking back, it seems to me that soon after Rom teamed up with Alpha Flight (which led me to start reading AF) and Sal Buscema leaving the book after issue 58, Bill had run out of ideas for ROM and decided to wrap up the book and end the Wraith War. The ending of the Wraith War seemed almost lackluster to me. Not sure if it was Bill's writing or Steve Ditko's art or both. And ROM's adventures in space trying to find Galador, killing off the Spaceknight Squadron from Rom Annual 2, wiping out Galador's population by evil 2nd generation Spaceknights, etc, were not my favorite ROM stories.

Not to detract the conversation too much - but if loved ROM, I'd recommend the ANNIHILATORS limited series (both of them).

[Crackity Jones]

Why are you discussing these things that are not Alpha Flight, Tawmis? :P

#51 revealed that Heather has lost her mind (officially) and that even though Walter is back as Wanda (though, still Walter in spirit and mind, right?) since he has a female form, he's also decided that he likes boys and was flirting with Gary Cody.
That made me laugh.

[Tawmis]

Why are you discussing these things that are not Alpha Flight, Tawmis? :P

I am too discussing Alpha Flight! There was just a side bar, about how Bill could write well (ROM and MICRONAUTS), but even by the end, that got weird - then he said he was a ROM fan, which made me say he (and YOU! AND EVERYONE!) should check out ANNIHILATORS!

#51 revealed that Heather has lost her mind (officially) and that even though Walter is back as Wanda (though, still Walter in spirit and mind, right?) since he has a female form, he's also decided that he likes boys and was flirting with Gary Cody.
That made me laugh.

The Walter/Wanda thing, would have been funny for an issue or two... Sadly...