Crackity Jones' Discovery Of Alpha Flight

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I can only guess that the reason these things were allowed to happen is because the editor(s)/publisher green-lighted/approved them to happen.
In the 80's I couldn't take it anymore (#55), quit (caring) with #56, only occassionally picking it up (#s 64, 66, 67). Changing writers wasn't enough to keep me, at the time, although I thought the DreamQueen's origin was good.

Since then, I've filled in volume 1, with one exception (#105, I think it is); but I have never gotten over the poor execution/crappy stories that were published during the Mantlo era.

The early Mantlo era tried to pass off Alpha Flight as a family when just about everybody wasn't acting very family-oriented. That's one of the things that really irked me.

[Crackity Jones]

I can only guess that the reason these things were allowed to happen is because the editor(s)/publisher green-lighted/approved them to happen.
In the 80's I couldn't take it anymore (#55), quit (caring) with #56, only occassionally picking it up (#s 64, 66, 67). Changing writers wasn't enough to keep me, at the time, although I thought the DreamQueen's origin was good.

Since then, I've filled in volume 1, with one exception (#105, I think it is); but I have never gotten over the poor execution/crappy stories that were published during the Mantlo era.

The early Mantlo era tried to pass off Alpha Flight as a family when just about everybody wasn't acting very family-oriented. That's one of the things that really irked me.

Didn't editor guy, at the end of Byrne's run, state that he absolutely LOVED Heather, that she was his favorite??
That explains all the crappy Heather push that happened.

[Tawmis]

Ranking our faves?

1. Guardian (Mac4evah)
2. Northstar
3. Aurora
4. Puck (when not moping about Heather)
5. Shaman
6. Talisman
7. Bochs
8. Jefferies
9. Sasquatch
10. Manikin
11. Purple Girl
12. Heather (MAKES ME SO SAD THAT SHE RANKS HERE BECAUSE SHE NOW SUCKS).

Wow. My heart breaks.
You don't even rank Snowbird???

I'm still adjusting to the fact that all of the original members are gone (as of #51), Northstar is living with elves (cause he's now a half elf???), Aurora was abandoned in the dark because: HEATHER, Heather is dancing around claiming her AF is better than Mac's, Purple Girl and Manikin are an item, Sasquatch has forgotten that even though he's physically a woman when in human form, he's still Walter in mind and spirit, and suddenly he is flirting with Gary Cody. Mac is still dead. Heather is still a freaking disappointment and an idiot.

Well, I said earlier, Northstar and Aurora's origin gets "fixed"... Aurora where she is, ends up "fixed" also, if I recall, due to a villain later... Heather... she tries to get fixed, but too much damage is done to her, to ever like her in costume, in the original Alpha, and even in the following volumes... in Amazing X-Men, at least, she seems reset... as for Purple Girl and Manikin... I care for neither of these characters, so they could fall off the edge of the world, and the Sasquatch woman thing, gets fixed... eventually, but not nearly soon enough. And Mac, well, that gets fixed too. See what you have to look forward to? Other than Heather, you're in good hands.

Jeez, after typing all of that out, I have to wonder why again I am still reading this.

Because you care and want to hope that they all get fixed...

So, we aren't counting "funny" as a super-power then? Okay, scratch that one off my list.

I like to think I am funny, my wife would argue otherwise.

I can only guess that the reason these things were allowed to happen is because the editor(s)/publisher green-lighted/approved them to happen.

Or the editors didn't care about Alpha Flight, in general.

In the 80's I couldn't take it anymore (#55), quit (caring) with #56, only occassionally picking it up (#s 64, 66, 67). Changing writers wasn't enough to keep me, at the time, although I thought the DreamQueen's origin was good.

I stuck through it, the entire original run, because of how much I liked the team. I kept hoping they'd get fixed.

Since then, I've filled in volume 1, with one exception (#105, I think it is); but I have never gotten over the poor execution/crappy stories that were published during the Mantlo era.

#106? The Coming Out Issue, perhaps?

The early Mantlo era tried to pass off Alpha Flight as a family when just about everybody wasn't acting very family-oriented. That's one of the things that really irked me.

It was like a family! What are you talking about? A Charles Manson killing one another type family, but a family nonetheless...

[Le Messor]

Northstar is living with elves

This is what I was alluding to when I told you he'd stop picking on Heather. Technically, he does.

You don't even rank Snowbird???

A slip-up, perhaps?

Well, I said earlier, Northstar and Aurora's origin gets "fixed"... Aurora where she is, ends up "fixed" also, if I recall, due to a villain later... Heather... she tries to get fixed, but too much damage is done to her,

Yeah, most of it does get better... less worse, anyway.

~ Le Messor
"Most of our lives are about proving something, either to ourselves or to someone else."

[Crackity Jones]

Ranking our faves?

1. Guardian (Mac4evah)
2. Northstar
3. Aurora
4. Puck (when not moping about Heather)
5. Snowbird
6. Shaman
7. Talisman
8. Bochs
9. Jefferies
10. Sasquatch
11. Manikin
12. Purple Girl
13. Heather (MAKES ME SO SAD THAT SHE RANKS HERE BECAUSE SHE NOW SUCKS).

Here, Tawmis, I fixed it for you. I thought I had already put Snowbird on it.

[Crackity Jones]

Well, I said earlier, Northstar and Aurora's origin gets "fixed"... Aurora where she is, ends up "fixed" also, if I recall, due to a villain later... Heather... she tries to get fixed, but too much damage is done to her, to ever like her in costume, in the original Alpha, and even in the following volumes... in Amazing X-Men, at least, she seems reset... as for Purple Girl and Manikin... I care for neither of these characters, so they could fall off the edge of the world, and the Sasquatch woman thing, gets fixed... eventually, but not nearly soon enough. And Mac, well, that gets fixed too. See what you have to look forward to? Other than Heather, you're in good hands.

Sorry, I just keep getting stuck on b!tching about it. It's mindblowing.

Because you care and want to hope that they all get fixed...

Yes, that I do.

[Crackity Jones]

This is what I was alluding to when I told you he'd stop picking on Heather. Technically, he does.

I see.
I am considering skipping issues #52 up to when Northstar returns. And jumping back on when he returns. I don't know. I don't want to read about Not Alpha.

[Phil]

I think #51 onwards is where it starts to get better, as the Mantlo run winds it's way down.
I'm a big fan of the Jim Lee art and the Dream Queen storyline.

#52-53 may make you see Mac in a different light though, so maybe you won't enjoy them as much.

[Le Messor]

I am considering skipping issues #52 up to when Northstar returns. And jumping back on when he returns. I don't know. I don't want to read about Not Alpha.

And that's why I have such a problem with most of the later volumes. Part of it, anyway - it's Not Alpha.

However, there are some good stories between #52 and #82. I wouldn't recommend skipping all of it.

[Crackity Jones]

I think #51 onwards is where it starts to get better, as the Mantlo run winds it's way down.
I'm a big fan of the Jim Lee art and the Dream Queen storyline.

#52-53 may make you see Mac in a different light though, so maybe you won't enjoy them as much.

oooh, no. I was actually going to read #52 because that's the one titled "FLASHBACK!", right?
I do like the Jim Lee art.

And that's why I have such a problem with most of the later volumes. Part of it, anyway - it's Not Alpha.

However, there are some good stories between #52 and #82. I wouldn't recommend skipping all of it.

Ugh. How did you all stick it through Not Alpha??
The original characters are the ONLY reason I am still reading this series.
And as of now, there aren't any originals on the team.

[Le Messor]

oooh, no. I was actually going to read #52 because that's the one titled "FLASHBACK!", right?
I do like the Jim Lee art.

It's Lee's first work for Marvel.
All the stuff about Mac will get better, too.

Ugh. How did you all stick it through Not Alpha??

In my case, at first because we kept getting promises from the creative team that 'it'll turn around with issue #, we promise!'; 'it'll be more of what you love after issue #, we swear!', but ultimately because I knew it was limited.

V2: I was actually lining up at the store to dump it when they told me it was getting cancelled very soon. So, I thought why not buy two or so more issues?
V3: I enjoyed it (though it was baaad) so that wasn't a problem. (Also, the promises above.)
v4 and Omega Flight? I knew from the beginning they'd only end up being limited. (All were originally slated to be ongoing series; Omega and v4 were both dropped back to limited / minis before issue 1 hit the stands.) Also, I liked Omega Flight, Non Alpha or not.
Even though v4 was the original characters, I wouldn't have stuck with it the way it was written. Your mileage may vary.

Other people? Because they enjoyed them:
See Phil's comments on another thread that v2 is what brought him here.
A lot of peeps really liked v4 - as mentioned, it was the originals. Personally, I just didn't like that it was about the angriest thing I've ever read, with them screaming in my face all the time about 'how dare you not be a minority!?! Evil!' and the v2-like 'Mind control! Mind control! Oooh!' storyline.

I don't think anybody really loved v3, but it was only 12 issues in the end.

~ Le Messor
"Equality of opportunity means equal opportunity to be unequal."
~ Iain MacLeod

[Tawmis]

Here, Tawmis, I fixed it for you. I thought I had already put Snowbird on it.

and

A slip-up, perhaps?

Indeed it was! She put Snowbird back in there and I was able to piece my heart back together!

Sorry, I just keep getting stuck on b!tching about it. It's mindblowing.

As expected. If you didn't complain, I'd be more worried.

I am considering skipping issues #52 up to when Northstar returns. And jumping back on when he returns. I don't know. I don't want to read about Not Alpha.

Don't because...

I think #51 onwards is where it starts to get better, as the Mantlo run winds it's way down.
I'm a big fan of the Jim Lee art and the Dream Queen storyline.

... this! ^^^

Ugh. How did you all stick it through Not Alpha??
The original characters are the ONLY reason I am still reading this series.
And as of now, there aren't any originals on the team.

I believe the intention was to replace Alpha Flight entirely. Bill does good if he has a clean slate. This is why I think he initially did so well with ROM and MICRONAUTS which were both fun stories to read. (Not very much character development in either one, but they were still that comic you read for just some brainless fun).

V2: I was actually lining up at the store to dump it when they told me it was getting cancelled very soon. So, I thought why not buy two or so more issues?

When V2 came out, I recall enjoying the series. I recently tried to re-read it, and couldn't get past the original artists' work. Especially how he drew uh... "Mac" (to spare any potential spoilers).

I enjoyed Radius (and his origin), as well as his half-brother (though the origin they tried to peg for him, to me, was too much of a stretch and I don't think ever got confirmed). I strongly dislike Man-Bot or whatever his name was. But for the worse character in Alpha Flight history, second place goes to Murmur. First place goes to - if you can count him, since it wasn't in an ALPHA FLIGHT series, goes to Earth Mover. (Worse character even in ALPHA FLIGHT history, you probably know who I'd say it was...)

V3: I enjoyed it (though it was baaad) so that wasn't a problem. (Also, the promises above.)

This was the "comedy" one, right? Scott was writing?

v4 and Omega Flight? I knew from the beginning they'd only end up being limited. (All were originally slated to be ongoing series; Omega and v4 were both dropped back to limited / minis before issue 1 hit the stands.) Also, I liked Omega Flight, Non Alpha or not.
Even though v4 was the original characters, I wouldn't have stuck with it the way it was written. Your mileage may vary.
Other people? Because they enjoyed them:
See Phil's comments on another thread that v2 is what brought him here.
A lot of peeps really liked v4 - as mentioned, it was the originals. Personally, I just didn't like that it was about the angriest thing I've ever read, with them screaming in my face all the time about 'how dare you not be a minority!?! Evil!' and the v2-like 'Mind control! Mind control! Oooh!' storyline.

I enjoyed Volume 4, because it "reset" Alpha Flight. Were they a little more angry? Sure, but consider what they have been through, wouldn't you be pissed too?

I liked them having an edge. I feel like that's something Alpha Flight needed. For too long, they have been treated like a joke. I think, in part, because of how Volume 1 came about after Byrne's departure. It was so horribly handled - and not just from Bill. I think in the Marvel offices, new people were tossed onto Alpha Flight, to try and do something with it, simply because it was tied to the X-Men and the X-Men were popular back then, so they wanted to see if someone could make something happen. But they didn't want to put big names on there, because they were reserved to Marvel's core, big titles (FF, Hulk, Avengers, X-Men, etc). As a result, with so many writers and artists who walked through the original volume of Alpha Flight, it became almost unbearable, confusing, and a nightmare. I don't think anyone, post Byrne, ever cared about their assignment on Alpha Flight, and basically did what they had to, to keep their jobs.

So "rebooting"/resetting Alpha Flight with some edge, I think would have been what it needed. For the market readers to say, "Oh, hey, here's this team that's not going to put up with any Bull$#!+!"

Sadly, we did not get to see that develop into a series, right when we had a great artist on it, and a writer who expressed interest in making something of Alpha Flight...

[Crackity Jones]

My friend just received the first 10 issues of Byrne's run, so I'm going to re-read it while she's reading it for the first time.
I could probably use to do it anyway since so much character development and happenings are awesomely crammed into those first 10 issues.

[Phil]

I liked Volume 2, 3 and 4.
They weren't Byrne's Alpha Flight but then again nothing else was/will be.
Hell, even Byrne ran out of ideas and enthusiasm for the team. Who's to say that if he stayed on the book his run wouldn't have been even worse than Mantlo's?

No one is ever going to be able to recreate those first 28 issues and that's what made them so unique and enjoyable.
I don't think writers should be trying to imitate that run; they've got to try and do something similarly unique - sometimes it hits, others it misses; them's the breaks.

And I like Earthmover.

[Le Messor]

Indeed it was! She put Snowbird back in there and I was able to piece my heart back together!

Then just take it; take another little piece of my heart!

Especially how he drew uh... "Mac" (to spare any potential spoilers).

iirc, that was spoilered before #1 hit the stands.
I'd already learned to hate cartoony art long before then, especially when teamed up with dark, murky colouring.

Wait... Did Alan Davis draw a single issue? Or was it Neary? (Which would contradict something I said on another thread.)

(Worse character even in ALPHA FLIGHT history, you probably know who I'd say it was...)

Llan.

(V3) This was the "comedy" one, right? Scott was writing?

Indeed.

I enjoyed Volume 4, because it "reset" Alpha Flight. Were they a little more angry? Sure, but consider what they have been through, wouldn't you be pissed too?

Doesn't make me enjoy the book.
I don't want to read about a bunch of angry characters being angry. I don't like anybody when they're angry.

But they didn't want to put big names on there, because they were reserved to Marvel's core, big titles (FF, Hulk, Avengers, X-Men, etc).

Which is odd, because I often look at those big titles and wonder how this deservedly obscure person got the book!

I don't think anyone, post Byrne, ever cared about their assignment on Alpha Flight,

I'm not sure he did, either.

For the market readers to say, "Oh, hey, here's this team that's not going to put up with any Bull$#!+!"

In other words, a pretty generic team.

I liked Volume 2, 3 and 4.

Well, the world's a twisted place.

Hell, even Byrne ran out of ideas and enthusiasm for the team. Who's to say that if he stayed on the book his run wouldn't have been even worse than Mantlo's?

Always a possibility. I have noticed he has a short attention span; maybe it's good he only stays a few issues on any given title?

No one is ever going to be able to recreate those first 28 issues

I dunno, Alpha Flight Classics did a pretty good job...

And I like Earthmover.

First place goes to - if you can count him, since it wasn't in an ALPHA FLIGHT series, goes to Earth Mover.

And I know who Earthmover is!

~ Le Messor
"Life is an endurance test, so why be ashamed of your age?"
~ P.K. Shaw