Crackity Jones' Discovery Of Alpha Flight

[Tawmis]

And that, Crackity, is why people hate Mantlo's run so.

I still dislike the Llan the Sorcerer storyline over anything Bill did. Even the killing of Snowbird.

[Le Messor]

I didn't say it was the *first* reason...

Mignola was not right for the series. Nor was Gerry Talaoc.

~ Le Messor
"In order to avoid being called a flirt, she always yielded easily."
~ Charles, Count Talleyrand

[Le Messor]

I still dislike the Llan the Sorcerer storyline over anything Bill did...

Didn't that begin with Mantlo's run and bleed into James Hudnall's?

(And was half editorially mandated; 'Sandman is hot, Sandman is horror, ergo horror is hot, ipso facto make all our comics must be horror. Ipso Facto! Vis-a-vis! Concordantly! ... at least, that's what many of us have heard.)

[Flightpath07]

Wasn't the Llan the Sorcerer plotline "editorially cancelled", and therefore had to be wrapped up far more quickly than the writer (Hudnall, right?) wanted it to? Or the writer was pulled from the book, mid-story? Something like that.

I thought Llan had potential. But when an editor makes a decision that causes a writer to have to change and hurry things along, that is NEVER a good thing for the plot of the book. N-E-V-E-R. I cannot get enough distaste into my typing to convey how I feel about that sort of thing.

[Crackity Jones]

#47 was a Heather solo issue.
And! Does Northstar's illness end up being the comic book version of AIDS? I have this hunch that I think Mantlo would actually go 'there'.
I would actually prefer to think that he wouldn't, so if my hunch is wrong, please, do tell me it is. I'd really love to think that Mantlo isn't that bad.
And does Mantlo ruin "The Gift" by bringing it back up and playing off of it? Because, omfg, these things are too much.
I ask about "The Gift" because I just started #50 last night.

And, is it me, or is it just outright GROSS that Mantlo is seemingly pairing up Knapp and Purple Girl?
It was CLEARLY stated that she is only 13 years old, and I would assume that Knapp is considerably older since he was an intern for a "doctor".
WHY were these things allowed to happen????

[Crackity Jones]

No, not me. At first, I hated it mainly because of the art; very dark, creepy, and ink-y. Yuck. His writing style and his disregard for the characters? - I learned to hate that a bit later.

My dislike started as early as, what, his second issue on his run?
I remember posting here that #29 wasn't bad. But #30 blew my freaking mind because Heather was already annoying the piss out of me.
And that has NOT changed.

I am ONLY reading this series, still, because Byrne made me LOVE these characters. And a morbid curiosity keeps me needing to know how badly Mantlo is going to screw these characters up.

But, you guys, this does get better, right? Not Mantlo's run, but EVENTUALLY, someone came along and TRIED to make Alpha Flight better, yes?

[rplass]

Well, I liked Mantlo's run a lot and also the rest of the original v1 130 issues. Don't get sucked into the Mantlobashing. New writers change things. He changed some things. Many things changed back. Some changes were awesome.

The coughing was supposed to be AIDS, yes, but never made it into the actual comic. AIDS did show up later in the run, but with a different character.

And yeah, Kara's a bit young for Knapp. I was too wrapped up in his awesome powers to really notice. I was also too wrapped up in wishing I had Kara's powers myself to notice. Didn't want the purple skin, though.

[Crackity Jones]

I understand that writers change things. I understand stories have to be told.
I know these things. Alpha Flight isn't the first series I've read.
Going from what Byrne did, though, to what Mantlo did (or is doing, as I'm still reading his run) has been a difficult transition. I, personally, do not like it when characters are ruined to build other characters or to build other stories. However, I DO understand it to a degree because I know there are stories to be told.
I understood when Claremont did it to Captain Britain and Meggan so he could build Nightcrawler and others in Excalibur. I didn't like it, though, but I was still able to enjoy Excalibur.
But not only, imo, is Mantlo seemingly ruining EVERY character in AF, but his stories are off-the-wall even for comics, and even though, to me, it's OBVIOUS that he tried to build Heather into some awesome leader at the expense of every single character on the team, he even failed at that. He seemed clueless. At least so far. I am open to that changing, if it does. And IF it does, I'll be the first to admit it.

[Phil]

I enjoy Mantlo's run.
I prefer it to Nicieza and Lobdell's runs later on.

The problem is that it was jaunting following straight on from Byrne as the characterization/writing was noticeably different.
I think people would slate Mantlo's run less had it been later on in the title's history; there's still a lot of good stuff in there - characters, ideas, development. It just doesn't all mesh.

[Crackity Jones]

Everytime I think "Awww. Things are going good. It's going to be okay."
That is immediately destroyed either in the next panel or the next page by something else. Cancelled out. Usually by something stupid Heather either thinks or says.
The Woe of Puck is really starting to kind of get on my nerves as well. He is better than that.
I'll give it that it's action-packed. I do like that. But the characters aren't right. And the stories are insane. And I'm usually all for quirky, crazy stories. These just don't feel fun.

[Tawmis]

Didn't that begin with Mantlo's run and bleed into James Hudnall's?
(And was half editorially mandated; 'Sandman is hot, Sandman is horror, ergo horror is hot, ipso facto make all our comics must be horror. Ipso Facto! Vis-a-vis! Concordantly! ... at least, that's what many of us have heard.)

According to Wikipedia, for Llan the Sorcerer:
Created by James D. Hudnall and John Calimee

Wasn't the Llan the Sorcerer plotline "editorially cancelled", and therefore had to be wrapped up far more quickly than the writer (Hudnall, right?) wanted it to? Or the writer was pulled from the book, mid-story? Something like that.
I thought Llan had potential. But when an editor makes a decision that causes a writer to have to change and hurry things along, that is NEVER a good thing for the plot of the book. N-E-V-E-R. I cannot get enough distaste into my typing to convey how I feel about that sort of thing.

If it was cancelled, they waited a long time. If I remember correctly, the story for Llan the Sorcerer ran like 3 or 4 issues. Or perhaps it just felt that long.

And! Does Northstar's illness end up being the comic book version of AIDS? I have this hunch that I think Mantlo would actually go 'there'.
I would actually prefer to think that he wouldn't, so if my hunch is wrong, please, do tell me it is. I'd really love to think that Mantlo isn't that bad.

Just wait. It comes up.

And, is it me, or is it just outright GROSS that Mantlo is seemingly pairing up Knapp and Purple Girl?
It was CLEARLY stated that she is only 13 years old, and I would assume that Knapp is considerably older since he was an intern for a "doctor".
WHY were these things allowed to happen????

Age in comics is always weird. As for underage and older - just look at Kitty and Colossus in the beginning.

My dislike started as early as, what, his second issue on his run?

My original dislike was the origin he gave Puck. I wouldn't have minded Razer being in him. I just didn't like that when it wasn't, he turned into an old man. I would have rather that he kept the demon inside of him (if at all), but remained his size - and that's why it possibly ******ed his aging process - but don't age him suddenly.

I remember posting here that #29 wasn't bad. But #30 blew my freaking mind because Heather was already annoying the piss out of me.
And that has NOT changed.

For me, it took a deeper turn when he did what he did to Snowbird. I can't put into words how much I hated that story. I didn't mind Pestilence - I thought that was actually a GREAT concept and origin for the villain - just hated the end result with Snowbird.

I am ONLY reading this series, still, because Byrne made me LOVE these characters. And a morbid curiosity keeps me needing to know how badly Mantlo is going to screw these characters up.

Other writers will make it worse. But...

But, you guys, this does get better, right? Not Mantlo's run, but EVENTUALLY, someone came along and TRIED to make Alpha Flight better, yes?

Yes, I think so. But then later, I strongly dislike how Sasquatch is drawn. It's like they didn't even look at how he's supposed to be drawn, and rather gave him Wolverine's hair style.

Well, I liked Mantlo's run a lot and also the rest of the original v1 130 issues. Don't get sucked into the Mantlobashing. New writers change things. He changed some things. Many things changed back. Some changes were awesome.

I agree. I think Bill did some good things, and had some good ideas. Just some of it, was executed poorly. But as you said, some other writers come along with their own bad spins on Alpha Flight, within the original series - but also have good ideas, too. For example, James Hudnall did the Llan the Sorcerer story (which I have probably made very clear on every Alpha Flight related thread, how much I hate it) - but he also did DreamQueen (I believe), which I thought was some of the best stuff, post Byrne in the original series. So, you take the good with the bad.

I understand that writers change things. I understand stories have to be told.
I know these things. Alpha Flight isn't the first series I've read.
Going from what Byrne did, though, to what Mantlo did (or is doing, as I'm still reading his run) has been a difficult transition. I, personally, do not like it when characters are ruined to build other characters or to build other stories. However, I DO understand it to a degree because I know there are stories to be told.

Yes, but to be fair, it's really hard to follow up with Byrne in the prime of his stuff. This was a time that Byrne was really on top of his game.

I understood when Claremont did it to Captain Britain and Meggan so he could build Nightcrawler and others in Excalibur. I didn't like it, though, but I was still able to enjoy Excalibur.

That's a good example (not so much Excalbur, for what I want to say - but Clairemont). Chris Clairemont is hailed as one of the X-Men gods, for what he did with the Uncanny X-Men when it first got relaunched. And to me, to this day, that's still my favorite comic writing (Uncanny X-Men #94 through #175, as well as adjective-less original X-Men relaunch with him and Jim Lee, remains a series of comics, I can read, repeatedly, and feel like there are NO bad issues! I don't believe he did that entire run, but he's responsible for the majority of it - especially the early on stuff).

Now, many years ago, Chris Clairemont returned to the Uncanny X-Men. And he brought in the Neo-Mutants, I believe they were called. That was some absolutely horrible writing. So even someone who was hailed the best, has their bad days!

But not only, imo, is Mantlo seemingly ruining EVERY character in AF, but his stories are off-the-wall even for comics, and even though, to me, it's OBVIOUS that he tried to build Heather into some awesome leader at the expense of every single character on the team, he even failed at that. He seemed clueless. At least so far. I am open to that changing, if it does. And IF it does, I'll be the first to admit it.

Like I said either here or at the other forum where we were talking Alpha Flight - I think he was trying to turn Heather not into a strong female, but a tough female. A Seigonie (sp?) Weaver of ALIENS type. Shoot to kill, ask questions later, if it twitches. So it wasn't so much a strong female (say like Valkyrie, Mystique, etc) - but more of a tough, shoot to kill type. No idea why he would do this - as this was a VERY sharp contrast to the more tender, caring, Heather, who wanted to do what she could to help a savage Wolverine/Logan, when he was first found.

I enjoy Mantlo's run.
I prefer it to Nicieza and Lobdell's runs later on.

The problem is that it was jaunting following straight on from Byrne as the characterization/writing was noticeably different.
I think people would slate Mantlo's run less had it been later on in the title's history; there's still a lot of good stuff in there - characters, ideas, development. It just doesn't all mesh.

Agreed. As I said, hard to follow Bryne at his prime. And Bill had a lot of great ideas, I just didn't care for how he executed some of them.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

Much reading has happened in the past week or so.
I made it up to #44 or #45.
Which ever has Sasquatch's return.
So, yeah, Pestilence possessed Snowbird's unborn baby. O_o
Heather had to kill Sasquatchbird, her husband, and her baby O_o
Spirit Snowbird, husband, and baby were accepted by the gods into paradise.
SnowbirdSasquatch returned from the dead because: Pestilence became Sasquatch.
Oh, Smart Alec's body came out of Shaman's pouch possessed by Walter because he had no mind.
All fought SnowbirdSasquatch's body possessed by Pestilence.
Couldn't beat Pestilence so Walter (who was in Box) then possessed SnowbirdSasquatch's body.
Aurora who had just had sexy times with the new and improved Bochs then realizes Walter is back (this may not be in order), asks about his ability to morph into a human.
He does, but he's a woman.
THE END OF WHAT I HAVE READ.

I left out the painful ups and downs of Heather's stupid thought bubbles, and Puck's "OHMYGODILOVEHEATHERBUTSHECANNOTLOVEADWARF" woe moments.

I am not thinking too much about what I just read because WTF.

This is just me, but a second Pestilence story makes absolutely no sense. Accepting Pestilence (a mortal from the 19th century) somehow hijacked the essence of a quarter-breed transmorph (aka Snowbird & Doug Thompson's baby) in AF# 37/38, he arrogantly states that he has dominion over DEATH & DECAY, while disparaging 7 GREAT BEASTS (who are a lot older than Crozier & have been at it a lot longer). Somon (at the very least should have taken acception to this); I don't think Tundra (the real Tundra) would have let that slide, either. And I doubt the others who were shown (if they had had any personality at all) would have put up with an upstart like Pestilence.

The real GREAT BEASTS would've made sure Pestilence paid for his presumptuousness. Therefore, the idiocy of the Pestilence/Snowbird-Sasquatch deathathon should not have happened.

Then Alpha Flight would've had to deal with the GREAT BEASTS.

[Le Messor]

Well, I liked Mantlo's run a lot and also the rest of the original v1 130 issues. Don't get sucked into the Mantlobashing.

Seems to me this is a case of forming Mantlobashing of her own, rather than getting 'sucked in'. :P

I really dislike Mantlo's run; on volume 1, there are no runs I dislike worse... but it's still entertaining, and there are other runs I'm not fond of. Fabian Nicieza (who's written some stuff I love) had a terrible run.
I'm not fond of the Llan the Sorcerer storyline, though it's not my 'most-hated'; but I do admire Hudnall's work. He made me enjoy an issue with Calimee's art! How do you DO that?!?

That said, I still preferred any of volume one to either 2 or 4.

According to Wikipedia, for Llan the Sorcerer:
Created by James D. Hudnall and John Calimee

James Hudnall did the Llan the Sorcerer story (which I have probably made very clear on every Alpha Flight related thread, how much I hate it) - but he also did DreamQueen (I believe),

If it wasn't Llan who began in Mantlo's run and bled over into Hudnall's, it was DreamQueen. So, yeah, you can give Mantlo that, too.

- and that's why it possibly ******ed his aging process - but don't age him suddenly.

It's still doing that to you, Tawmis? (the word was r e t a r d e d, as in slowed.)

I agree. I think Bill did some good things, and had some good ideas.

Of course.
It's just outweighed by the bad.

Yes, but to be fair, it's really hard to follow up with Byrne in the prime of his stuff. This was a time that Byrne was really on top of his game.

True. Very true.
But they can do a much better job than this.
Then again, given the personal issues Mantlo was going through at the time, it isn't fair to expect much of him.

Chris Clairemont... that's still my favorite comic writing (Uncanny X-Men #94 through #175,

Claremont started a little later than that, around #100 (but not #100) or so.

A Seigonie (sp?) Weaver of ALIENS type.

Sigourney.

~ Le Messor
"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it."
~ Groucho Marx.

[Le Messor]

If it wasn't Llan who began in Mantlo's run and bled over into Hudnall's, it was DreamQueen. So, yeah, you can give Mantlo that, too.

... Of course, I could just check...
Yep, #58 was written by Mantlo and has DQ in it.

[Phil]

According to Wikipedia, for Llan the Sorcerer:
Created by James D. Hudnall and John Calimee

Don't always take Wikipedia as fact, but in this case; yup. First appearance AF #71.

That said, I still preferred any of volume one to either 2 or 4.

But not 3? Surprising

Claremont started a little later than that, around #100 (but not #100) or so.

Hate to be 'that guy' but Tawmis was spot on, #94 was his first issue; straight after GSXM #1