Crackity Jones' Discovery Of Alpha Flight

[Garry/Al-Fan]

...

Or the editors didn't care about Alpha Flight, in general.



I stuck through it, the entire original run, because of how much I liked the team. I kept hoping they'd get fixed.


(After #29 through #56, so much bad stuff had happened that I didn't believe it could be fixed...a lot of it will be considered canon, no matter how much retro-revising. G/A-F)

#106? The Coming Out Issue, perhaps?

(The Bachelor party/bar-hopping issue is the one I don't have, yet. G/A-F)



It was like a family! What are you talking about? A Charles Manson killing one another type family, but a family nonetheless...

One decision keeps popping up for me about AF# 44: if your leader (Heather) or your team-mates (Judd and Jeffries) KNOW that your powers are going to get negated if you touch your sibling, why on earth would you split the team up and have Northstar and Aurora in the same group, in a cave, going after a foe who beat them handily the first time?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I think #51 onwards is where it starts to get better, as the Mantlo run winds it's way down.
I'm a big fan of the Jim Lee art and the Dream Queen storyline.

#52-53 may make you see Mac in a different light though, so maybe you won't enjoy them as much.

CJ, I agree with Phil; the later Mantlo run is better than the earlier part. Bare in mind this is faint praise, though; it's Alpha-lite.

[Crackity Jones]

One decision keeps popping up for me about AF# 44: if your leader (Heather) or your team-mates (Judd and Jeffries) KNOW that your powers are going to get negated if you touch your sibling, why on earth would you split the team up and have Northstar and Aurora in the same group, in a cave, going after a foe who beat them handily the first time?

Because you have hopes of killing off the last of your team so that you can make an Alpha Flight team ALL YOUR OWN that consists of a Mind Raper, a guy who lusts after said under-aged Mind Raper (but he splits into three different guys, so COOL and YAY!), a guy who you suddenly have become attracted to, and a Not Sasquatch/Snowbird/whatever. And all of these thoughts hit you in a splash page at the end of the book as you ponder, in depth, how your new, ALL-YOUR-OWN AF team is better than your deceased husband's and how you are better than your deceased husband, and your justifications for SUCKING. BADLY.

[Crackity Jones]

<---Bitter. Will always be bitter over how Heather was changed. ALWAYS.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

<---Bitter. Will always be bitter over how Heather was changed. ALWAYS.

I can relate, CJ.

Different people have different interpretations of ALPHA FLIGHT, but I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment of why the illogical grouping.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

Don't read vol. 4 with the expectation that Heather gets treated better. She doesn't. [poor, defenseless cousins...]

[TSOG]

Like I said, I originally liked Volume 2. But the art, when I tried to re-read it, was... bad. And Murmur and Manbot? Finally an Alpha Flight character created that I hate more than Manikin...

Funny, I felt the same way. As I was buying it, I was enjoying it a great deal. Maybe it was just the "buzz" of finally having some of these characters available again.

But when I read it again a couple of years later I was trying to remember what I liked. The art was often brutal and the new characters were completely unappealing to me. The book, by and large, is a giant mess.

[Le Messor]

And how can you possibly like Earthmover.

He, my friend, had potential. Granted, the first time he flew out in the sunlight, he got covered in concrete and ended up stuck on the edge of a building, but still, at least he didn't get wet.

So help me if that song gets stuck in my head...

What's sad is, it's a cover version that's stuck in mine, not the Janis original.

Worse villain being Headlok?

Who isn't even an Alpha villain. He just appeared in that one issue.

Also: I've changed as well over the past 5 years. But I'm not a fictional character. People aren't reading my life with the expectations of knowing who I am.

1. I agree with you on holding fictional characters to different, and higher, standards to real people.
2. Actually, we are. See... this thread.

he completely contradicted what was already established, with no good reason.

Also, completely suddenly, out of the blue. No build up or organic flow-through. It's like a giant ant farm.

Does that then raise the question that we have expectations of these characters?
We don't own them, we didn't create them, we have no claim to them...

Ah, yes, the ages old question; who really owns the characters? The creators or the fans?
Normally asked about Star Wars characters after the prequels.

It's unambiguously true we didn't create them (then again, neither did Bill Mantlo - at least, he didn't create the Alphans who got most of us reading the series) ; legally, we don't own them - though some people (in the Star Wars example) argue that we do, more than the people who did create them and more than those who legally owning them.
I leave all that to the philosophers.

What I will say is two things:
1... The creators / owners are trying to sell us these characters. If they want us to keep buying, they need to keep either meeting our expectations, or breaking them in a good way.
B) We, the fans, have invested a lot of money, time, and emotion in these characters. How many covers of each appearance of AF does Rob have, for example? If that doesn't give us some claim over them, what does? No, that wouldn't hold up in a court of law; but this is a court of public opinion.

<Heather in v4>

Sniff... so true.

~ Le Messor
"They say any lawyer who represents himself has a fool! for a client. As God is my witness, I am that fool!"
~ Gomez

[Crackity Jones]

Le Messor, you're giving me goosebumps.

[Crackity Jones]

I can relate, CJ.

Different people have different interpretations of ALPHA FLIGHT, but I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment of why the illogical grouping.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

Don't read vol. 4 with the expectation that Heather gets treated better. She doesn't. [poor, defenseless cousins...]

Unfortunately, at this point, right NOW, I couldn't care less about Heather.
And THAT is what ticks me off the MOST.

I went from ADORING her, thinking she was damn-near-perfect, to absolutely not giving a crap about her, to wishing they'd just kill her off because she's THAT BAD.
All in, what, 22 issues. Yes, 22 issues.
Wow, that's a lot of issues, actually.
And Heather has been horrid in every single one of those issues.

[Crackity Jones]

#52 was the worst issue I have read so far.
You guys want me to list all the things wrong with it? Or do you remember?
*Heather hits an all-time high in stupidity.
*Mantlo states very clearly (via Box/Jeffries) that Knapp is a med school graduate, which means he is clearly well over an age to be trying to...wait, NO ONE should be trying to sex up a 13 year old.
*I believe NOTHING of what was said about Mac. I won't accept it. I won't. I know it's going to be undone just like the elves thing, right?

Those are the only three things I am listing that was wrong with the issue for now.
This issue SUCKED.
I am unhappy.
I cannot believe all the f*#kery that just happened in this book. Heather needs to just go away.
And is Gary Cody dead??

[Crackity Jones]

I am so blasted pissed at #52.
MAKE NOTE OF THIS: #52 was the WORST ALPHA FLIGHT ISSUE EVER.

[Tawmis]

The Rouleau stuff was quite stylistic and I can see why people didn't like it.
I personally wouldn't use the term bad though.

Was Rouleau the first or second artist? Another artist came on who was more cartoony - I found that more bearable.
Keep in mind, when I say bad - I mean by the standard I'd expect and hope from Marvel. Most of Marvel's artists could draw circles around me on their worse day, and be better than me at my best. (Though the current Uncanny X-Men artist, whoever, the Hades that is - I feel I might have a fair shot at beating artistically!)

Yeah, Murmur was pretty redundant but was an important part of the Legacy sub plot they were building and never got to.
Manbot didn't have a chance to show any point or potential, again for the same reason.

We got, what, 20 issues? That was more than enough time to inject some personality, besides a one dimensional piece of cardboard.

These are fictional characters though; you can only follow established personalities for so long without repeating them. Hence re-creation.

Right, everyone changes. But not so drastically, usually, without it being:
- A major event in their life
- Mental illness

Earthmover is essentially Shaman & Talisman; a normal every day citizen pulled into a legacy of shaman magic.
To write one off is to write the other two off.

He had the personality of a rock.
And that's insulting some of my pet rocks I had in my youth!

The problem with him is essentially the same as Murmur; he was a redundant character because Shaman & Talisman existed and fulfilled the role, and that he literally got 2 issues of guest appearances before being reduced to silent cameos.

Redundant can easily exist. I thought Shaman and Talisman, were pretty much the same. But they each stuck out. Aurora and Northstar are the same, but they stuck out.

Why?

Personality!

He's my fourth favourite Alphan after Sasquatch, Puck and Wild Child.

Really? Earthmover? Over Snowbird? Shaman? Talisman? Aurora? Northstar?

I saw no problem in Llan as a character whatsoever.
Just the resolution of the arc.

Well, you're entitled to be wrong. LOL

And then this happened....

IMO, it's okay to ADD to personalities of characters, but not change them.
Which is what I feel has happened a LOT in what I've read of Mantlo's run so far.
You start changing pre-loved and established characters, you kill off a good portion of your loyal audience, imo.

I definitely agree to an extent but there's a very blurred line between adding and changing, and a distinct one between changing and contrasting.
My personality has changed from 5 years ago; I've grown/evolved/natured/nurtured/endured.
Change is fine as long as there's a justifiable, logical reason.

What I meant by "add to characters' personalities" is that, obviously characters are going to go through written experiences which will add to what they are and (blurred line of "add" and "change" here) that may somewhat change how they are, but to make them completely different than how they started and were initially established? No.
Also: I've changed as well over the past 5 years. But I'm not a fictional character. People aren't reading my life with the expectations of knowing who I am.

Then in that case Mantlo didn't change the characters personalities, he completely contradicted what was already established, with no good reason.
Which is poor writing.
Which I totally agree with you on.

Which is what I was trying to say! You just agreed because Crackity is a woman! And she used her womanly charms! And better explanations! LOL

One decision keeps popping up for me about AF# 44: if your leader (Heather) or your team-mates (Judd and Jeffries) KNOW that your powers are going to get negated if you touch your sibling, why on earth would you split the team up and have Northstar and Aurora in the same group, in a cave, going after a foe who beat them handily the first time?

Because Heather is a dumb ass, once she put on the costumes? That's my guess.
She might have gotten worse Alpha Flight character ever created - only pre-costumed Heather saves her from that role, when she was actually an amazing character and very believable.

<---Bitter. Will always be bitter over how Heather was changed. ALWAYS.

Don't worry. There's plenty I will always be bitter about in comics.
- Heather in a costume
- Snowbird killed
- Walter killed
- Walter brought back as a woman

And that's just in Alpha Flight... if we go beyond Alpha Flight, I'd crash the server with all my complaints...

I can relate, CJ.

Different people have different interpretations of ALPHA FLIGHT, but I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment of why the illogical grouping.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

Don't read vol. 4 with the expectation that Heather gets treated better. She doesn't. [poor, defenseless cousins...]

LOL! So. So. So. So. VERY true.

Funny, I felt the same way. As I was buying it, I was enjoying it a great deal. Maybe it was just the "buzz" of finally having some of these characters available again. But when I read it again a couple of years later I was trying to remember what I liked. The art was often brutal and the new characters were completely unappealing to me. The book, by and large, is a giant mess.

Yes, it felt like story wise, after re-reading it - the writer had a very, very, very, very loose notion of where he was going - but seemed to have "related" plot lines he was just pulling from a hat. It didn't feel focused.

RE: EarthMover
He, my friend, had potential. Granted, the first time he flew into the sun he got covered in concrete and ended up stuck on the edge of a building, but still, at least he didn't get wet.

He could have stayed in the sun.

What's sad is, it's a cover version that's stuck in mine, not the Janis original.

Same. I always think of ROUGH CUTT's version, because, sadly that's where I heard it first. And is, my preference.

Unfortunately, at this point, right NOW, I couldn't care less about Heather.
And THAT is what ticks me off the MOST.

I went from ADORING her, thinking she was damn-near-perfect, to absolutely not giving a crap about her, to wishing they'd just kill her off because she's THAT BAD.
All in, what, 22 issues. Yes, 22 issues.
Wow, that's a lot of issues, actually.
And Heather has been horrid in every single one of those issues.

#52 was the worst issue I have read so far.
You guys want me to list all the things wrong with it? Or do you remember?
*Heather hits an all-time high in stupidity.
*Mantlo states very clearly (via Box/Jeffries) that Knapp is a med school graduate, which means he is clearly well over an age to be trying to...wait, NO ONE should be trying to sex up a 13 year old.
*I believe NOTHING of what was said about Mac. I won't accept it. I won't. I know it's going to be undone just like the elves thing, right?
I am so blasted pissed at #52.
MAKE NOTE OF THIS: #52 was the WORST ALPHA FLIGHT ISSUE EVER.

I would like to say it gets better... that Heather gets better... But... no.

[Le Messor]

Le Messor, you're giving me goosebumps.

If you feel a shiver down your spine, don't worry. It's probably just the wind.

*I believe NOTHING of what was said about Mac. I won't accept it. I won't. I know it's going to be undone just like the elves thing, right?
And is Gary Cody dead??

Um... Yes, it will be fixed.
And, he shows up alive later.

Most of Marvel's artists could draw circles around me

Actually, circles are very, very hard to draw.

You just agreed because Crackity is a woman! And she used her womanly charms! And better explanations! LOL

And the whole being right thing.

Same. I always think of ROUGH CUTT's version, because, sadly that's where I heard it first. And is, my preference.

I think mine's by Jenny Morris.

~ Le Messor
"Most of the people who are writing advertising today have never had to sell anything to anybody. They've never seen a consumer."

[Crackity Jones]

I have no womanly charm. Even when I try it's ruined by me either sneezing, tripping over myself and falling, partially walking into a wall or doorway, freaking out over a bug, a panic attack, a paper cut, accidental work-related injury, a lack of good depth perception, or saying the wrong, stupidest thing at the wrong time (is there EVER a right time to say something stupid?).

[Phil]

I am so blasted pissed at #52.
MAKE NOTE OF THIS: #52 was the WORST ALPHA FLIGHT ISSUE EVER.

Hate to say I told you so...