Happy Holiday!

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08-09-2004
kozzi24

Happy Holiday!

It's Monday August 9, 2004, time for another summer holiday...but only here in Rhode Island.
We still "celebrate" VJ Day.
So nasty, evil, and politically incorrect.
We still memorialize when the rising sun over the Empire of the Rising Sun was in the form of a mushroom cloud.
I don't find that a bad thing. There's too much that needs to be remembered that would easily get forgotten entirely if we didn't have this annual controversy.
There are no winners in a war, especially nuclear war.
Japan attacked the US first...and out leadership let it happen, because otherwise there would be little domestic supprt for our troops to go fight in Europe and the Pacific and other places too far away "to matter."
The Japanese were interred in this country because their looks made them an easily identifiable enemy.
The Japanese practiced torture on POWS surpassed only by the German concentration camps.
If the A-bombs had not been dropped in Japan, they would have been dropped SOMEWHERE. Humans can't learn without such glaring example. Who might the victims had been then?
Does FDR burn in hell for giving the order?
It's a question of "what price victory?" not a question of rascism.

Rhode Island's the smallest state, and one of the most densely populated.
Next time you are tempted to complain about my accassional jokes here, remember the absolute political incorrectness of my background and environs, and the good that some of those aspects serves, no matter how much Draconian and Machavellian they may be.
08-09-2004
Major Mapleleaf Jr

Before I say this, I want to ensure everyone that I don't mean this offensively...

But when people express their opinions on political incorrectness and the unfairness of America's practicies or attitudes or what-have-you toward other countries and groups of people...

Just remember, if it wasn't for America's at-times imperialistic, double-dealing, daggers-drawing policies, you might not have the freedom to express said opinions in the first place.

America isn't perfect, but it's the richest nation in the world per person. We must be doing SOMETHING right.

It's easy to complain when you've got every opportunity in the world to make something of yourself, and you don't have to worry about malaria or drought or famine or not knowing what air conditioning is.

There was a point in here somewhere, I swear there was. :wink:
08-09-2004
DelBubs

Before you go any further, please remember that I am not having a pop at any one person, but expressing my own personal opinions about certain things. In regards to America, I for one do get a little perturbed by being told that if it wasn't for America I'd be gose stepping up Oxford street etc. While I would never denergrate the sacrifice made by the U.S in WW1 or WW2, I would like it recognised that for three years in WW1 and two years in WW2, Europe and then Britain basically went it alone. It was a personal bugbear to my father that his earring loss and the two near misses he suffered mean nothing to some Americans who believe that the world ends at their borders.

In regards to Mr Bush and the present American policies, I see this as a young country going through exactly what numerous other empire builders have gone through. While I fully appreciate the things that America has done, it bothers me that at present, current policy seems to be goverened by the concept of making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

Yes it's easy for me sitting in England t take shots at America, but if it wasn't for the fact that America is probably the richest and most powerful country in the world at present, China is becoming more insular, Russia has gone tits up and the EEC is a group of infighting morons, America leads the way, but at present, those of us who follow are a tad concerned about where exactly we are being led.

As I said at the beginning of this, I am not digging at anyone on this board, if this post offends anyone then please PM me, so there's no hint of a flame war and I'll gladly remove it. That said however, unlike most other boards, I can't think of anyone here who would go down that path.

Thanks for listening.
08-09-2004
Sir John A.

What does VJ stand for?
08-09-2004
ladymako71

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir John A.

What does VJ stand for?

VJ Day was the day the Japanese surrendered to the allies at the end of WWII. They signed their surrender on the deck of the USS Missouri fearing a possible THIRD atomic bomb, after bombs had already devistated Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Or in short "Victory over Japan"

Now...as a citizen of two countries, I reckon I'm going to add my two cents worth, for whatever they are here. I'm a New Zealander and an American, I consider myself a New Zealander first because I was born there. I grew up all over the place as a kid because my father, who is American, was in the navy. As a result I got to see the States from both sides.

In Hawai'i I saw it the in possibly the clearest light. Hawai'i was 'stolen' for all intents and purposes by the US government in 1893 with the forced signing by King David Kalakaua of the Bayonet Constitution. The non military affiliated locals are not very patriotic when it comes to the US. You don't see a lot of fireworks on the 4th of July unless you happen to be in Waikiki or on a military base. They do however reguard the US as their home because they are the 50th state. And it took over 100 years of association with the States to achieve that status. 66 of those years as a 'dependent' of...

Hawai'i was NOT a state of the union in 1941 when the Japanese attacked. They were like Puerto Rico, a place the US had interest in because of this really good natural harbor...the one that got attacked December 7th, 1941. The Navy choose Pearl Harbor to house the pacific fleet, because of the great harbor and the even greater location...smack dab in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

I have been to the Arizona Memorial in Pearl Harbor, several times. I have been to Punchbowl military Cemetary in Honolulu several times as well. I would get angry at Americans when I would hear mutterings at the various memorials. The mutterings and comments were directed at Japanese tourists and I can honestly say I have lost count at the number of times I heard 'Come to check out their handy work have they?' And this is after I heard stories from Americans who have been to Peace Park in Hiroshima, at ground zero of the bomb blast, who never heard comments of the like directed at them...and they were White, Japanese speaking Americans.

I've known and cherished the friendships of several men who stood up for their country even though their ethnicity was the enemy. Known as the 'Pineapple brigade', the members of the 442nd proved that where your roots may come from does NOT dictate your loyalties. Sadly it's one of the greatest lessons learned in WWII that has been forgotten today.

There's a part of Hickam Air Force base that is accesable only to military personal and their dependents. It's the barracks that housed the pilots that morning 63 years ago. It's never been used since that day, and the bulletholes in the walls from the Japanese attack are still very visible. To call it 'sacrid ground' may sound cliche, but it's true. I've touched those walls, ran my hand over the large holes and to the day I die, I will tell you that I touched time...it's an eery feeling. And one I will never forget! Or the lessons the world was supposed to learn from that day.

The one lesson I did learn growing up the way I did, a citizen of two very different countries, was simple. National Pride is what makes a country great. National Pride forced on others leads to a country being hated. My father, the retired US military veteran, is the person who told me that a long time ago. I can also list twenty odd examples off my head of what he meant by those words.

I do not accept the policies of the current government. My father does not either. My sister definitely doesn't and she was born in Virginia. Her husband is like me...an American and citizen of another country which he was born in, Thailand in his case, and he's in the Middle East right now. He's been gone since Thanksgiving of last year...he won't be home until Thanksgiving next year.

Someone reading my response to this might wonder what I'm pissing on about...simple. In reguards to VJ Day...I've been to the places of importance that finally led to it. I've heard the accounts and seen for myself that no matter what is said, there will always be two sides of every story to history, and sometimes the wrong one can be the one that's remembered.
08-09-2004
Major Mapleleaf Jr

Oh, believe me, I am NOT a supporter of Bush or this shoddy administration. Or the fact that America is possessed of world-striding arrogance. None of it has escaped me.

I just didn't see the need for a post about VJ Day, one that instantly attacked its reason for being. Having many, many friends and family in the military (or once having been), I find it somewhat appalling that the middle ground wasn't touched on at all. There really IS two sides to every story, and they should both be told.

Truth be told, America has been led by some militaristic idiots at many points in its history. But those people who ARE being celebrated by VJ Day, they shouldn't be denigrated or insulted or otherwise made to feel as if their actions were evil or wrong or what-have-you. Part of military life is following orders. It's a big part, in fact. If you're not a fan of the military, that's all well and good, but to insult the military by making light of their holiday is wrong to me.

And honestly, if life in America is sooooooo bad, one always has the option of leaving and going somewhere else. I'm not particularly proud to be an American, but I AM proud to be a citizen of this world. And creating a better world, one that everyone would like to live in, isn't going to happen by tearing others down.

I apologize to anyone whom I might have offended, but I just don't see the need to tear others down just because I have the given right to do so. Negativity breeds negativity.
08-09-2004
kozzi24

Quote:

Del wrote: That said however, unlike most other boards, I can't think of anyone here who would go down that path.

I could think of one, and he came up with the first response:

Quote:

I just didn't see the need for a post about VJ Day, one that instantly attacked its reason for being

MY APOLOGIES for offending anyone, even someone who habitually makes it a point to contradict certain other parties with such ambiguity that he has to end his post with

Quote:

There was a point in here somewhere, I swear there was

I just thought I would add a little local color and lore to the international gang here. I tried to balance the issues that straddle the local holiday every year and put a little further conjecture. Double checking now, I still don't see any tearing down. By using the taglines evil nasty & politically incorrect without quotes and then asking advance understanding for the Machavellian bacjground and environs, I was admitting my own complicity and support. As the interment of the Japanese is not usually associated with the holiday but clearly mentioned in the original post....

Good points by Jo & Del. Every country holds degree of guilt in misplaced nationalism. Del, I shamefully admit to having used the equivalent of the goose stepping line back in 2000 to an elderly man in your country once in response to being verbally accosted for being American. When circumstance had me in Lincolnshire the day the latest Gulf War started, I just rolled my eyes and walked away EACH time someone referred to the news as the war that I personally started.

Jo, I actually had you in mind when I posted about the holiday, and you did not disappoint with a well thought out post! There are two Presidents from the 2nd half of the 20th century that history says are really great: Kennedy & Reagan. The thing they had in common (aside getting shot and getting Hollywood starlets to spread'm) is that they gave the people pride in simply being American.
08-09-2004
DelBubs

All countries should celebrate their achievements, nobody should be ashamed of what has gone before. However as was pointed out, some people can't leave the past alone and still make snide comments to Japenese and German people. I personally believe this to be wrong, no one is to blame for the actions of any government, just as Coalition troops should not be denergrated for killing Iraqi's in the present climate, then no Iraqi should be ostracised for what he did in the first Gulf conflict.

Troops are just figures who live and die in nasty circumstances and when they wish to celebrate the good they did, then it should be recognised. No real person will get offended by a 106 year old man laying a wreath at a cenotaph to remember fallen friends or the good that was achieved by their sacrifice. Once we forget that sacrifice then we sully the 25 million dead of WW1 and the 50 million plus of WW2.

War is dirty, governments use men to achieve an aim, only the men can find glory in the **** of war, they deserve the right to remember and be remembered.
08-09-2004
kozzi24

Absolute agreement.
War being dirty was one of my points about VJ Day being celebrated here. The celebration of VJ is a remembrance of war at its most heinous. When that's forgotten, so is much more of the terrible price of that victory. With the US and so many other nations embroiled in the current conflict, I think it is good to remember just how far these things can go.
08-10-2004
Major Mapleleaf Jr

I don't make it a point to contradict what you have to say about things, Kozzi. I just make it a point to speak up when I think someone is wrong. And I believe you were wrong. It was unnecessary liberal rabble-rousing, in my opinion and I didn't think it was very appropriate. And my stance was hardly ambiguous.

Honestly, I think you (and anyone else that feels the same way) should take a step back and stop feeling so defensive. It's not personal on my end, buddy. Maybe you shouldn't make it personal, either. :?

Besides, if you don't want to hear a dissenting opinion, then perhaps you should keep your own opinions to yourself. This is a message board, and when you post a piece about VJ Day as you did, you should expect criticism. Not everyone feels the same way about things that you do. That's the beauty of having the freedom to express your opinions openly. Something you should stop and thank a veteran for. :wink:

It occurs to me that if a person has such little regard for his country and such, then perhaps another country with a "cleaner" history might be more his speed. I personally find bleeding-heart liberals to be amusing, because they ***** and moan about the deplorable acts that their government engages in, yet have no problem reaping the benefits of said deplorable acts.

Personally, while I'm a moderate-to-liberal who loathes Bush and Republicans in general, I also understand that sometimes it takes doing some really awful things to accomplish a greater good. That's the reality of life. The United States is hardly the most heinous country in the world. Any major power in the world has committed awful acts to further their goals. And it's easy to attack the US right now with words, because of how high Bush has set himself. It doesn't take a whole lot of courage to speak up about his excesses because, well, everyone else is doing it, too.

Essentially, Kozzi, I have no problem with you, and I don't attack what you say out of habit or reflex. I am merely expressing my own viewpoints, and I was under the impression that that was the purpose of message boards in the first place.
08-11-2004
kozzi24

My last response on the subject

It was unnecessary liberal rabble-rousing, in my opinion and I didn't think it was very appropriate.
The title of this forum is:

Quote:

General Discussion "The Cupboard"
To talk about anything under the sun.

If you didn't like the topic, you should have stopped reading.
If you TRULY didn't find it appropriate, you should have brought it to Ben's attention rather than responding to it.

if you don't want to hear a dissenting opinion
Where's the dissent? I said in the original post:

Quote:

We still memorialize when the rising sun over the Empire of the Rising Sun was in the form of a mushroom cloud.
I don't find that a bad thing. There's too much that needs to be remembered

To repeat:
I don't find that a bad thing.

to insult the military by making light of their holiday is wrong to me
Where's the insult? Where was the military even specifically mentioned in my post. VJ Day is not Veteran's Day. The people who oppose the holiday here are in two groups: Japanese and anti-nuke groups. To repeat for people who don't seem to pick up the understated things in their exuberance to rant against specific individuals:

Quote:

I don't find the holiday a bad thing.

There really IS two sides to every story, and they should both be told.
This doesn't count as two sides?

Quote:

The Japanese were interred in this country because their looks made them an easily identifiable enemy.
The Japanese practiced torture on POWS surpassed only by the German concentration camps.

Not everyone feels the same way about things that you do
By saying I don't find the holiday a bad thing, I am expressing agreement with it, and listing things associated with it, not all of them things usually associated DIRECTLY. Somehow, you decided I was against the holiday and bombarded me with things like
But when people express their opinions on political incorrectness and the unfairness of America's practicies or attitudes or what-have-you toward other countries and groups of people/It's easy to complain when/And honestly, if life in America is sooooooo bad, one always has the option of leaving/

If you... don't see the need to tear others down just because I have the given right to do so. Negativity breeds negativity Then why do you? And why always in RED TYPE, the angry color?

The sum of your posts have given statements that you loathe, among others, republicans, George Bush, your family (who you now salute because it suits your purposes), people who... (fill in the blank), and on at least one occassion, a specific comic creator with such unwarranted venom that you got moderated. You have told people in these forums, including me, to shut up. Numerous times.

This is a message board, and when you post a piece about VJ Day as you did, you should expect criticism.
When posting anything political, anyone has to expect dissent, disagreement and discussion.
You got my views wrong from the start because your intent WAS personal. Criticism for my views is personal, and I am NOT the only one who has noticed your pattern of behavior of telling people to shut up or that they should even leave the country if they don't agree with you.

You should avoid putting words in people's mouths when those words were in writing. Note that none of my posts here have been edited to change anything. By looking to disagree with me, you actually agreed with my underlying view.
08-11-2004
Ben

Locking this topic, if you wish to contiue with it, take it to PM please.

Ben