if you wrote alpha flight.

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Originally Posted by tkmadison

Ah, see - I didn't know that. I would have thought that that had happened before it was concretely determined that Northstar was, in fact, gay. I know that it had sort of been hinted at close to the start, but unless it becomes really obvious...

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At that point, JP's coming out wasn't for another few years, but considering the revelation, using strict gays agaist Kara would be moot, since we know that her powers worked on JP.

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There are more and more old characters in the MU that are being reincarnated as gay. This is both good and bad, I think.

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which quells naturally with my gripe against the media. Homosexuality is now becoming a fad - to be used as a 'quirk' or 'shock' medium. Ranks up there with the 'blaxpoitation' of the '70's - using something considered outside the norm that is quickly gaining acceptance as a gimmick (this is the prime reason I refuse to watch 'Will and Grace' and 'Queer Eye for the Straight Guy'. I'm to a point where I'm ready to start boycotting them)

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I just read that Karma is gay...Going back to those old New Mutants comics, who the hell would have thought that?
But I suppose that if they don't show her with a boyfriend either, then it's open season. :D

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You never see Walt with a dog, doens't mean he's allergic. Again, an example of using a minority for it's shock value. Ranks up there with Morrison's 'outting' Beast in X-Men a few years ago - a ploy I have to agree with (even if I don't like Morrison's run). Morrison used Hank to demonstrate such media-shock values as a derogation.

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Ah, the joys of electronic communication, eh?

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Heh, don't remind me.

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By the way, where in BC are you roughly? I lived in Vancouver for about ten years, myself, and spent a year in Victoria as well.

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I'm in Revelstoke, in the mountains (about 5 hours west of Calgary).

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Loved a lot of aspects of it, but the lack of sunlight in winter drove me nuts.

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Heh! That's funny: that's the same reason why I DID move here! originally, I'm from Yelloknife. Got tired of 8 mos of winter, so moved here, where we get a nice 3.5 mos instead.

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At that point, JP's coming out wasn't for another few years, but considering the revelation, using strict gays agaist Kara would be moot, since we know that her powers worked on JP.

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Did they work on any other men?

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which quells naturally with my gripe against the media. Homosexuality is now becoming a fad - to be used as a 'quirk' or 'shock' medium. Ranks up there with the 'blaxpoitation' of the '70's - using something considered outside the norm that is quickly gaining acceptance as a gimmick (this is the prime reason I refuse to watch 'Will and Grace' and 'Queer Eye for the Straight Guy'. I'm to a point where I'm ready to start boycotting them)

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Exactly. I can understand the point that now that it seems to be becoming more and more mainstream to accept homosexuality, and thus more acceptable to portray homosexuals within comics, but at the same time there is that exploitation of a popular fad aspect. Especially when you dig up old characters and suddenly, out of the blue, announce they are gay. Ok I can accept that some characters might have been gay, or straight up were (bad pun, I know) but without alluding to it at all but for the faintest and subtlest of hints that could easily be explained in some other way, it just isn't credible. Gay characters? Sure, no problem...write up a new one. Could it be that hard? Do comic book writers know gay people? Aren't any of them gay? The underground comic book scene is filled with people who would love, I am sure, to be paid Marvel's writing wages and have been publishing out of their basement apartment for years. On top of that, they've been writing gay characters the whole time.

What I really want to see is some genuinely mental ill major characters. (Aurora, of course, being the only one of note) I'm not talking villains, either. How come we haven't seen a powerful mutant that's schizophrenic? I'd rather see some really well portrayed real human traits appear in comics rather than yet another ridiculous x-men storyline.

x-men used to be one of the only comics i ever read, now i won't go near it. Long gone are the days of Byrne, Claremont and Romita.

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You never see Walt with a dog, doens't mean he's allergic. Again, an example of using a minority for it's shock value. Ranks up there with Morrison's 'outting' Beast in X-Men a few years ago - a ploy I have to agree with (even if I don't like Morrison's run). Morrison used Hank to demonstrate such media-shock values as a derogation.

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Beast? Are you serious? What about Trish?

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I'm in Revelstoke, in the mountains (about 5 hours west of Calgary).

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I've been there several times. Very beautiful there!

I like the idea of a new Guardian type character, so that the Hudsons can raise their child and take on more of a lead role off the field. I think MMJ is a bit too straight laced for this position. I always thought Radius, if he could get past his arrogance, would make a good leader. Dig him up and slap a suit on him. It wouldn't even need the EM forcefield function. I like giving the leader a new name to differentiate them from Guardian/Vindicator and Alpha Flight from other teams. I still like the moniker, Province, because it screams Canada and it establishes in a name what is most important to the team, protection and service to their homeland. Doesn't really matter who is in the suit, just that they are a strong leader, but a change might do the team good.

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Originally Posted by tkmadison

Beast? Are you serious? What about Trish?

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Heh heh, that's where the rumour came from. As everyone knows, Hank's NOT gay, and he freely admitted to it being an emotional kick in the shins. See, during their last break-up, in which Trish broke up with HIM, Hank's big come-back was to falsly admitting he was gay, or ought to be. Not one for letting Hank have the last word, Trish took it to the next step by REPORTING on it, and, given Hank's celebrity, first because he was an Avenger, then later, after the X-Men became main-stream and almost respectable, it spead like wildfire. Only Hank didn't dispell the rumour, instead feeding it by not outright denying it. Now he's never ADMITTED to it (to my knowledge), but he's never DISMISSED it either. (I don't have the issue, so I don't know why they broke up this time - may have something to do with him now being (and this is a direct quote from New X-Men 115) 'Tony the Tiger on barbituits', but I don't know for a fact)

Heh, who needs soap operas when you have comics, eh?

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Originally Posted by Barnacle13

I always thought Radius, if he could get past his arrogance, would make a good leader. Dig him up and slap a suit on him. It wouldn't even need the EM forcefield function... I still like the moniker, Province, because it screams Canada and it establishes in a name...

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Heh, Barnacle.

Gee, I wonder where I heard that idea before...

(for those of you not in the loop; many, many, many moons ago, Barnacle, myself and several other members of this forum were part of a now-defunct - mainly due to the fact we can't FIND it - fanfic site called 'Second Flight', which took Alpha Flight to the jurisdiction of Marvel's near-defunct 'MC2' line [which, set 20 years into the future, had included such titles as A-Next, Fanstastic Five, J2, and still includes Spider-Girl, the only survivor of that set, plus a couple other titles]. One of the characters was a future-version of Radius as a semi-stable authority figure in the Flight, now going by the moniker 'Province'.)

Dk's confusion may have been that Kara's powers work via pheremones, although there is no sexual bvasis to them. Purple Man's powers had no sexual basis either.
Murmer used her powers flirtatiously, although I don't remember off the top of my head that her powers were ineffective against people who were not straight men.
DK, you should hunt down the 2 part of Kara's introduction. It was a solid story, and she started off as a likable character before she became one of Mantlo's mouthpieces for bashing the originals.

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(I don't have the issue, so I don't know why they broke up this time - may have something to do with him now being (and this is a direct quote from New X-Men 115) 'Tony the Tiger on barbituits', but I don't know for a fact)

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That's pretty much what the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: X-Men 2004 says about it in Beast's entry.

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Heh, who needs soap operas when you have comics, eh?

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:D What's the difference?

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Originally Posted by kozzi24

Murmer used her powers flirtatiously, although I don't remember off the top of my head that her powers were ineffective against
people who were not straight men.

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I don't think Murmur's powers were necessarily sexual in nature, just that she was a tramp. Case in point: she used her powers primarily on Sasquatch II, who was prolly more interested in EATING her than screwing her. As for the Purple Family, I believe they were just using generic pheromones. (some how I doubt that old Jeb wanted to screw the corpses he rose, but that was all he COULD raise).

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Originally Posted by HappyCanuck

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Originally Posted by Barnacle13

I always thought Radius, if he could get past his arrogance, would make a good leader. Dig him up and slap a suit on him. It wouldn't even need the EM forcefield function... I still like the moniker, Province, because it screams Canada and it establishes in a name...

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Heh, Barnacle.

Gee, I wonder where I heard that idea before...

(for those of you not in the loop; many, many, many moons ago, Barnacle, myself and several other members of this forum were part of a now-defunct - mainly due to the fact we can't FIND it - fanfic site called 'Second Flight', which took Alpha Flight to the jurisdiction of Marvel's near-defunct 'MC2' line [which, set 20 years into the future, had included such titles as A-Next, Fanstastic Five, J2, and still includes Spider-Girl, the only survivor of that set, plus a couple other titles]. One of the characters was a future-version of Radius as a semi-stable authority figure in the Flight, now going by the moniker 'Province'.)

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Mind you I'm not saying necessarily he should be it. I just said I always liked that idea. Wonder why? They could pin that moniker on MMJ and improve him immediately. I just think he's too straightlaced to lead a team. I think there'd also have to be a big build up to the change in the guard. I think Guardian (Mac) should be the one to hand over the reins, even though Heather is/was a stronger leader and lasted much longer in that role. Make Puck the next leader and call him Province. Doesn't much matter to me who it is, but Mac and Heather should get on with child rearing and potentially desk jobs in the new AF organization. You gotta admit though the Second Flight stuff kicked butt!

Barnacle

Whoops! Forgot to include I have sent Ben many of the Second Flight Stories to post here. I had about 8 of the 12 and a couple origins hanging around in old e-mails. I copied them into Word and send them on. Ben should be posting them in the Fanfic section of this forum at some point. I think there were a couple of pieces of artwork, too. I don't know who they belong to, but I had them on my PC. So....Uh hum....Ben, waiting on you , buddy!

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Originally Posted by Barnacle13

You gotta admit though the Second Flight stuff kicked butt!

Barnacle

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I do! That;s why I'm a) glad that you managed to resurrect some of the old chapters and b) sad that the rest was lost...

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Originally Posted by varo

what would you do?

old team? new team? dept. h? independent?

what would you do to assure that the series stuck this time?

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ah geez...
i just spent the past few days re-reading the first 60 issues of volume one and re-reading voume 2 in it's entirety.
What would i consider as a line up?

Sasquatch, for sure.
Aurora and Northstar were great
Puck (why not...even as a trainer)
Talisman
Box II
I liked the incarnation of Vindicator in volume 2 better than just 'a female version' of Guardian (and I am sick of the x-men-ish and utterly messed storyline of Mac-synth clones, so let's just keep him out altogether or have someone entirely different using his suit)
...
And maybe some new original characters.
There aren't any new additions from V3 that I am particularly fond of...
and Murmur just seemed to be a crappy knock-off of the Purple Girl. Ghost Girl was alright, so we could have her around. I never particularly liked Windshear...nor 'Yukon Jack.'

I guess that's about it on just an initial, off the top of my head list.

Me, I'd take AF back to the original plot outline described in the promo art for volume 2
(quoted below - anyone with a copy of X-Force #67 or any issues with the circulation date of June 1997 and access to a scanner should prolly scan them for the archives)

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Originally Posted by [i

X-Force[/i] #67 - Promo (pages 37 - 39)]
"Memorandum 082166, Department H
Codename: ALPHA FLIGHT
Rogue Agents
Unwilling to comply with new Department H directives.
Funding eliminated.
Considered Dangerous.
USE EXTREME PREJUDICE IN APPREHENSION

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Then goes to describe the members of issue #1. I got pissed at the series because the direction the actual series took was NOT what I was expecting.

Anyhoo: this premise is what I would use (similar to Alpha's 'criminalised' state during the Llan storyline, except less tacky). The first basic storyline would run at least 12 issues, with larger segues within the arc. The first thing I would do - as in, right at the opening of issues 1 - is have a hit-squad of Epsilons attack and kill several past and current members of the Flight, most especially Mac right in front of Heather (this time there would be NO WAY that Mac's death could be written off - he would be dead, kaput, deceased). Heather would also be attacked but not killed (I like her character too much for that - plus it's a rallying point), instead she'd be comatose for a while (length undeterminate at this junction). Then we see several other past members attacked, some killed and others get away. Some of the suriving members would be Walt, Eugene, Narya, and Flex (just because, other than Radius, all the members from V.2 thta weren't original members have been left in limbo, and Flex was the one character I liked of the new guys), who go out in search of other surviving members, hoping for the best. (Many second-stringers and former Beta/Gamma members will be brought in, many not surviving past issue 6).

In later issues, other former members will be hunted, and some will be either perminantly or temporarily rejoin the team (I have an idea for an attack at Xaviers, bringing JP (assuming he's still with the X-Men) and Logan into the story - Logan will be a VERY temporary member of the team [no, I won't kill him off, but not because I don't want to], and I'm yet undecided if JP will join back on in any fashion resembling permanence). There will be quite a bit of culling, and switchings of sides in the battle (some not so suspected), until the arc's climax in issue 12.

Meanwhile, we learn as we go that Department H is under brand new commandership - after the Board of Directors where all killed in a bloody coup. The new commander puts into motion effects that makes all surviving members not only wanted criminals (under the banner of 'national treason' - the only crime in Canada that's still punishable by the death penalty), but also national pariahs (yet to figure out what they are going to be framed for, but it'll be something big that labels them as terrorists on scale with Al-Qaeda).

Things build to a head until, on the last page of #11, we learn that the new Director of Department H is none other than 1301040919151400100506060518090519 (Don't wanna ruin the surprise 8) ; if you wanna know, figure out the code, but keep it to yourselves - don't ruin the surprise for others), and [their] new directive is to ban super-heroics in Canada, under the banner that super-heroes have caused more damage and caused more deaths in the last umpteen years than all natural disasters, terminal diseases and wars that's affected the nation, put together. Parliament is coerced to give DH a more cognitive role in National Security (they set themselves up only as an intra-national force, leaving international matters to the diplomatic corps and Department of National Defence), and 'marshal law' is enforced for all super-powered entities - not just mutants - and everyone - man, mutant or other - is forced to undergo genetic registration, the most dangerous of them either permanently incarcerated or destroyed. (Note: by the end of the arc, this hasn't gone into effect yet, and is only just becoming a law. Other than Alpha operatives, no other metahuman is subjected to this treatment - yet).

By the end, not only is Department H dismantled, but it's utterly destroyed. I'm not sure what happens to Alpha Flight afterwords, but they are reinstated as non-criminals. Whether or not they stay on in a more offical capacity is yet to be determined.

Okay, I know most of this sounds lame or completely stupid, but this is only a preliminary idea, and will need further developing. Suffice it to say, the line between 'hero' and 'villian' with certain characters is a VERY thing line, with people you'd least expect on each side of the law. It'd also include characters shown in all three previous volumes, some more than others.

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Okay, I know most of this sounds lame or completely stupid, but this is only a preliminary idea, and will need further developing. Suffice it to say, the line between 'hero' and 'villian' with certain characters is a VERY thing line, with people you'd least expect on each side of the law. It'd also include characters shown in all three previous volumes, some more than others.

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Not at all stupid.
THe problem with a lot of characters and titles is that their (yes, I realize that I am talking about comics here) lifespanis completely unrealistic.
If we are to believe that they truly are engaged in as gritty a war as we kept being told, one would expect the body count to be higher. Not just secondary characters, or new characters thrown in to die. For example, how many X-Men have actually died in the past thirty years? Hardly any at all.
Keep the books fresh and the writing challenging so that it draws people in. Marvel shouldn't be afraid to kill off it's characters.

I'm doing something we've all talked about - I'm writing my version of Alpha Flight volume 4, but I need your help. The following is a list of all known members of Alpha Flight. Please chose three (3) characters to either kill off or take out of action, and state how they will be taken out of action in square brackets (please put your initials in with your suggestion).

Not all selections will be chosen, but all suggestions will be acknowledged. Also, if I've missed anyone, please add them (please note, only characters who have been members or strong associates of Alpha Flight, Beta Flight, Gamma Flight and First Flight apply - this does not include regular guest stars, such as Namor, the Fantastic Four, or the Avengers, unless they have actually JOINED one of these teams)

ALPHA FLIGHT - CHARACTER LIST
Jean-Paul Beaubier
Jeanne-Marie Beaubier
Det. Bernard 'Groundhog'
Roger Bochs (deceased)
Adrian Corbo
Jared Corbo (deceased)
Lillian Crawley-Jefferies
Goblyn Dean
Laura Dean
Kyle Gibney
James MacDonald Hudson [deceased AC]
Heather Hudson [coma AC]
Colin Hume
Madison Jefferies
Jodi 'Stitch'
Eugene Judd
Kara Killgrave
Whitman Knapp
Walter Langkowski
Logan
Albert Louis
Manbot (deceased)
Mar
Chuck Moss
Narya
Nemesis
Rutherford Princeton
Lou Sadler Jr.
Saint Elmo
Marrina Smallwood (MIA)
Alec Thorne (deceased)
Arlette Trufault [deceased AC]
Elizabeth Twoyoungmen
Michael Twoyoungmen
Witchfire
Wyre
Zuzha Yu
Yukon Jack

(parentheses['(*)'] denote shown cases; brackets ['[*]'] denote suggested cases )